3062 Tango Topics Online
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:59:05 -0800
From: Susana Domingues Dance <susana@TANGOVANCOUVER.COM>
Subject: Tango Topics Online
Please enjoy the following topics written about on my website:
https://www.tangovancouver.com
As well as published Tango Articles.
* Musical Interpretation
* Style, Personal Style & Tango Styles
* Machismo
* The Best Student
* Is the Dancer an Archetype?
* Dancer's Euphoria
* The Fastest Road to Learning Tango?
* Plateaus in Learning
* How Strict is 'Man leads, Woman follows'
* Tone
* Abandon the 8 Count Basic?
* 3 Habits That Hinder Learning
* Quotes on Learning/Teaching Processes
* Tango's Tragedy and Irony
* Rose In Teeth
* The Genuineness of Performing Choreography
DANCE TIPS including
* Principles of Following
* Leader's Arm Positions
* Milonga Etiquette
* Floorcraft
* The Musical Curtain
* The Follower's Gift/The Leader's Gift
* Can You Dance Tango to Singers?
* Who Decides on the Embrace
* Advanced Women's Technique
* Performing Tips
--
Tangazos, Susana Domingues
https://www.tangovancouver.com
email: susana@tangovancouver.com
(604) 602-1831
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:35:19 +0100
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango Topics Online
Susana and other tempted by Susana's posting (to post the same on
Tango-L): Your posting is _only_advertising_ your site [on the
entrace page the first thing one sees is "Buy your video here!" ...
(some) real content is well hidden after a couple of clicks.
Tango-L is for discussion, but you are free to post your
announcements/advertising to the Tango-A(nnouncement) list!
Keep Tango-L for discussion!!!
Christian
On 28 Dec 2004 at 1:59, Susana Domingues Dance wrote:
> Please enjoy the following topics written about on my website:
> https://www.tangovancouver.com
> As well as published Tango Articles.
Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:06:30 -0500
From: ed doyle <doyleed@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Topics Online
Susana's site has lots of interesting tango information on it that can
easily promote tango discussion. I disagree that her posting is -only
advertising-.
Ed
On Tue, 2004-12-28 at 05:35, Christian LC<then wrote:
> Susana and other tempted by Susana's posting (to post the same on
> Tango-L): Your posting is _only_advertising_ your site [on the
> entrace page the first thing one sees is "Buy your video here!" ...
> (some) real content is well hidden after a couple of clicks.
>
> Tango-L is for discussion, but you are free to post your
> announcements/advertising to the Tango-A(nnouncement) list!
>
> Keep Tango-L for discussion!!!
> Christian
>
>
>
> On 28 Dec 2004 at 1:59, Susana Domingues Dance wrote:
>
> > Please enjoy the following topics written about on my website:
> > https://www.tangovancouver.com
> > As well as published Tango Articles.
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:02:40 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Topics Online
Among the list of articles Susana posted to the Tango-L there is one
passionately defending the eight-count basic step as a learning tool
(https://www.tangovancouver.com/tango/symposium/symposium.htm#Abandon8Count):
<----------------------------
Appearing on the Tango horizon is a philosophical debate over the teaching
of the 8 count basic and the seemingly opposing view that a student must be
shown only the walk as a beginning. Advocates of this idea also seem to
resist the naming of patterns. They wish not to limit students to only a few
set patterns and instead wish to help student leaders to arrive at patterns
themselves...
---------------------------->
Correction: student leaders should not arrive at patterns themselves. It's
patterned thinking idea. Instead they should avoid patterns like a plague,
creating new dance, which interprets the music on a spot. Starting with
simple walking and adding walk variations one at a time.
Tom and Andy have already pointed out that the difficult issue of dance
musicality conveniently brushed off in another article at the same website:
(I am currently of the opinion that it is impossible to teach anyone to
interpret music... A teacher of Tango attempts to teach a synopsis of a
history of patterns which define "Tango"...) is not difficult at all and
results from the pattern teaching approach of the instructor.
Here is another interesting article on pattern teaching: Intelligent
Dancing' article by Richard Powers in Stanford
(https://dance.stanford.edu/syllabi/intelligent.htm).
<-----------------------------
This is authority-based ballroom dance. The standardized syllabus, the
studio and the trainer are all precisely specified authorities, carefully
controlling every detail, every shape and nuance of one's dancing. Here are
the judges who will determine if you are doing it correctly. Here is the
Silver Level award to certify that you satisfied the authorities. So right
from the beginning they give you a blueprint of your dancing, and your job
is to automatically follow that plan, that map.
That's what the word authority means. It literally means they are the author
of your dancing. Not you.
That's okay. Many people need that level of authority in their lives, or
they simply want someone to tell them exactly what to do, so I'm certainly
not saying that this approach to ballroom dance is wrong. This is exactly
right for many people. And to give authority-based ballroom studios further
credit where it's due, self-esteem may be boosted when these criteria are
successfully mastered.
But you can also gain positive self-esteem from self-authored dancing. Or
better yet, co-authored dancing, where both dancers collaborate on creating
the dance.
There is a fundamental difference between these two approaches. If the
stimulus-response relationship of a situation is automatic, as it is in
authority-based ballroom dance, we can't, by definition, consider the
response to be as intelligent as self-authored spontaneous freestyle
dancing.
Leonardo Da Vinci wrote, "Anyone who relies upon authority uses not his
understanding, but rather his memory."
As I see it, this is a choice between art and craft. Art involves
creativity, spontaneity and self expression. Craft is skillfully creating
something which might be aesthetically pleasing, even beautiful, but without
the emphasis on personal creativity and self expression.
Picasso and Degas created art. Painting by numbers is a craft. So I think of
freestyle partnering is the art of dancing, while following a syllabus or
trainer is the craft of dancing. Nothing is wrong with crafts they can be
very beautiful. You might do a good job of coloring within the lines and the
result might be pretty, but someone else is the author.
Ballet is another authority-based dance form, as it should be (you don't see
much freestyle improv ballet!). Ballet is an art for the choreographer but
it's a craft for the dancers. George Balanchine said, "Dancers are my
instruments, like a piano the choreographer plays." And the dancers are
happy to accept that. It's the same in some ballroom studios, where the
syllabus creators, often long-dead, were the artists and the dancers are the
artisans.
It's your choice. Both options are valid and each has millions of devotees.
Choose the one which suits your personality the best.
All I can add is that if you choose Argentine tango, you have chosen the art
form where there is very little room for eight count basic step.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Susana Domingues Dance <susana@TANGOVANCOUVER.COM>
>Reply-To: Susana Domingues Dance <susana@TANGOVANCOUVER.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango Topics Online
>Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 01:59:05 -0800
>
>Please enjoy the following topics written about on my website:
>https://www.tangovancouver.com
>As well as published Tango Articles.
...
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:42:28 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango Topics Online
As Tom, Oleh, I and others have pointed out on several occasions, teaching
beginning leaders step patterns (such as the 8-count basic) runs the risk
of producing numerous problems with musicality and navigation that render
the beginning leader less capable of dancing than when they first walked
in the door. Teaching beginning leaderrs to combine small elements of
movement to dance preserves navigational skills and enables the
development of musicality skills. It also provides the tools for future
improvisation and gives beginners an opportunity to taste improvisation
from the beginning.
Susana Domingues argues that:
>Scientists such as Gregory Bateson who study human learning
>processes indicated only through moving to higher level patterns
>will students understand the logic of the previous level of information.
https://www.tangovancouver.com/tango/symposium/symposium.htm#Abandon8Count
Doesn't that mean that If instruction starts with 8-count basic, the
teaching of even more complex patterns that incorporate the 8-count basic
will help students better understand the 8-count basic? But will they
understand and learn Argentine tango? The controversy over the 8-count
basic is actually two-fold. The first is whether the 8-count basic
developed by Antonio Todaro ought to be considered the standard basic of
Argentine tango. Many do not think so even if it proves useful in
teaching. The second is whether the 8-count basic is actually a useful
pedagogic device. Critics of the 8-count basic are concerned that its
overuse tends to lock leaders into patterns. Susana suggests that as
dancers advance they will deconstruct the patterns they have been taught.
If the 8-count basic is a higher level pattern that will help students
understand the logic of the previous information, shouldn't the instructor
be teaching the component parts of the 8-count basic before teaching the
whole pattern? If they do not, where is the previous information?
With best wishes for the New Year!
Steve (de Tejas)
Stephen Brown
Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:21:06 -0500
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Topics Online
I started tango learning the 8 count basic with the dreaded backstep. It didn't take me long to realize the backstep was invented by an idiot so I no longer use it on the dance floor but instead I would shift my weight and step to the left or simply walk forward. If I ever get around to teaching Argentine tango some day I certainly will NOT include the backstep in my class.
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 1/7/2005 12:42:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> writes:
>As Tom, Oleh, I and others have pointed out on several occasions, teaching
>beginning leaders step patterns (such as the 8-count basic) runs the risk
>of producing numerous problems with musicality and navigation that render
>the beginning leader less capable of dancing than when they first walked
>in the door. Teaching beginning leaderrs to combine small elements of
>movement to dance preserves navigational skills and enables the
>development of musicality skills. It also provides the tools for future
>improvisation and gives beginners an opportunity to taste improvisation
>from the beginning.
>
>Susana Domingues argues that:
>>Scientists such as Gregory Bateson who study human learning
>>processes indicated only through moving to higher level patterns
>>will students understand the logic of the previous level of information.
>https://www.tangovancouver.com/tango/symposium/symposium.htm#Abandon8Count
>
>Doesn't that mean that If instruction starts with 8-count basic, the
>teaching of even more complex patterns that incorporate the 8-count basic
>will help students better understand the 8-count basic? But will they
>understand and learn Argentine tango? The controversy over the 8-count
>basic is actually two-fold. The first is whether the 8-count basic
>developed by Antonio Todaro ought to be considered the standard basic of
>Argentine tango. Many do not think so even if it proves useful in
>teaching. The second is whether the 8-count basic is actually a useful
>pedagogic device. Critics of the 8-count basic are concerned that its
>overuse tends to lock leaders into patterns. Susana suggests that as
>dancers advance they will deconstruct the patterns they have been taught.
>If the 8-count basic is a higher level pattern that will help students
>understand the logic of the previous information, shouldn't the instructor
>be teaching the component parts of the 8-count basic before teaching the
>whole pattern? If they do not, where is the previous information?
>
>With best wishes for the New Year!
>Steve (de Tejas)
>
>Stephen Brown
>
>
