4074 Teacher - Student relationships
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:09:44 -0600
From: Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Teacher - Student relationships
Thanks, Lois, for a change in subject.
For me, a teacher is a sort of parent/authority figure, and it seems a
little awkward for me to dance with 'mom' or 'dad' or 'professor' or
'judge'.
This mindset of course can be self-defeating to my true style and grace as a
dancer.
So I typically avoid dancing with teachers, even with those I never have had
a lesson.
It seems a pity, though, and your question may prompt me to make more of an
effort to dance with teachers in the months ahead.
Gibson
Minneapolis
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:22:00 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teacher - Student relationships
Hi Gibson,
Actually, it is the other way around. When a person
decides to become a tango teacher, it is usually not
because they deem themselves as a "judge" or an
expert. They become teachers because they want to
share something that they love and have some knowledge
of. But by becoming a "teacher" they are also putting
themselves in the public eye to be judged. They
become open to criticism and other expectations by
those within the community other teachers, students,
observers, etc.
It is similar to a singer who puts out a new album and
hopes people like it. And that is basically all a
teacher can do. They do explain things as best they
can and hope people like it. They develop different
ways of teaching and hope people like it. They
dance at milonga, knowing that they are watched and
judged more often than others in the room. And those
who are not willing to suck in their ego and be open
to criticism shouldnt become teachers.
At milongas, most teachers that I know just want to be
like everyone else. They are not there to judge
individuals but to just have fun. For me, one of the
worse things that can happen at a milonga is if
someone asks me "What can I do to improve my tango?"
or "Was that okay?". When it comes to individuals, my
teaching hat gets left at home.
The only time my teaching/organizer hat is on at a
milonga is when I trying to ascertain whether I have
done my job as a teacher as I watch the dance floor.
But I am only judging myself (and the deejay or
organizer) and not the dancers because it is the
teacher who either limits or inspires a student or a
community.
I hope you do begin to ask teachers to dance at
milongas. Chances are they will enjoy being related
to for who they are, not because of what they do.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Thanks, Lois, for a change in subject.
>
> For me, a teacher is a sort of parent/authority
> figure, and it seems a
> little awkward for me to dance with 'mom' or 'dad'
> or 'professor' or
> 'judge'.
>
> This mindset of course can be self-defeating to my
> true style and grace as a
> dancer.
>
> So I typically avoid dancing with teachers, even
> with those I never have had
> a lesson.
>
> It seems a pity, though, and your question may
> prompt me to make more of an
> effort to dance with teachers in the months ahead.
>
> Gibson
> Minneapolis
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 22:26:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: Teacher - Student relationships
Trini wrote:
> They become teachers because they want to share something
> that they love
> It is similar to a singer who puts out a new album
It's the /dancer/ sharing something he/she loves (by dancing) that is like
the singer sharing (by singing).
The teacher sharing by teaching is something quite different. Inevitably,
since this need for sharing is one that cannot be fulfilled by dancing...
Chris
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 17:56:15 -0500
From: jhapark@PENNSWOODS.NET
Subject: Re: Teacher - Student relationships
I disagree. It is not truly sharing if one is being paid to teach. You are
imparting your knowledge for a fee. Hopefully, you truly do love what you
are teaching and enjoy the process thereof and that's a key motivation for
teaching. I prefer the notion that an artist is being paid adn paid well;
they deserve it. The hard work, the passion, the investment of time and
money during their own learning process (education). It's an occupation
like any other.
--- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Teacher - Student relationships
> Hi Gibson,
>
> Actually, it is the other way around. When a person
> decides to become a tango teacher, it is usually not
> because they deem themselves as a "judge" or an
> expert. They become teachers because they want to
> share something that they love and have some knowledge
> of. But by becoming a "teacher" they are also putting
> themselves in the public eye to be judged. They
> become open to criticism and other expectations by
> those within the community other teachers, students,
> observers, etc.
>
> It is similar to a singer who puts out a new album and
> hopes people like it. And that is basically all a
> teacher can do. They do explain things as best they
> can and hope people like it. They develop different
> ways of teaching and hope people like it. They
> dance at milonga, knowing that they are watched and
> judged more often than others in the room. And those
> who are not willing to suck in their ego and be open
> to criticism shouldnt become teachers.
>
> At milongas, most teachers that I know just want to be
> like everyone else. They are not there to judge
> individuals but to just have fun. For me, one of the
> worse things that can happen at a milonga is if
> someone asks me "What can I do to improve my tango?"
> or "Was that okay?". When it comes to individuals, my
> teaching hat gets left at home.
>
> The only time my teaching/organizer hat is on at a
> milonga is when I trying to ascertain whether I have
> done my job as a teacher as I watch the dance floor.
> But I am only judging myself (and the deejay or
> organizer) and not the dancers because it is the
> teacher who either limits or inspires a student or a
> community.
>
> I hope you do begin to ask teachers to dance at
> milongas. Chances are they will enjoy being related
> to for who they are, not because of what they do.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
> --- Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, Lois, for a change in subject.
> >
> > For me, a teacher is a sort of parent/authority
> > figure, and it seems a
> > little awkward for me to dance with 'mom' or 'dad'
> > or 'professor' or
> > 'judge'.
> >
> > This mindset of course can be self-defeating to my
> > true style and grace as a
> > dancer.
> >
> > So I typically avoid dancing with teachers, even
> > with those I never have had
> > a lesson.
> >
> > It seems a pity, though, and your question may
> > prompt me to make more of an
> > effort to dance with teachers in the months ahead.
> >
> > Gibson
> > Minneapolis
> >
> >
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:52:59 -0800
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teacher - Student relationships
By their actions ye shall know them.
Although I have reached the point that I now feel comfortable when I practice with one of my former instructors in a class or practica, I have yet to ask one of them to dance with me. Why? Well, there a lots of reasons.
I think if you teach tango, your situation is similar to that of people who arrive as part of a couple. That is, as I have written here before (and to me it's no big revelation), you will most likely be treated as a couple. What that means is that other people will expect a lower chance of success when asking half of a couple to dance, and will ask someone who isn't half of a couple.
As you note, students will be reluctant to approach their teachers, as they may be reluctant to approach a couple. If you want this to change I believe you will have to make an effort to put your students at ease about dancing with you outside of class. Likewise, if a couple really wants to dance with other people, it will be much more likely to happen if they are explicit in letting other people know that is what they want.
Not too long ago I wrote about a favorite partner who is engaged to someone else. When she and her fiance are out, she pretty much avoids eye contact with me. And she mostly talks to her girl friends. And they are always together. Now, she told me we could still dance together. But, should I believe her words or her actions? Her actions, just in case you can't guess.
Perhaps teachers must carry one more burden. That is, the burden of making their students feel comfortable dancing with them, if that is what they want.
I do have one caution, though, based on personal experience. One instructor, who has nothing to do with tango, always accepted dances with anyone. But, it turned out that she has other ways of letting you know that she wasn't very enthused about it. If you want to dance with your students, don't let that happen to you!
Yahoo! Mail
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 18:24:02 -0500
From: Ed Doyle <doyleed@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject: Re: Teacher - Student relationships
Hi All,
I have been addicted to tango since May of last year. I have taken many
many lessons, but still am very much a beginner. I find some aspects of
this topic very interesting. As a beginner, at milonga's I have not
hesitated to ask teachers to dance. Two have refused me each and every
time. A third, I asked if she would give me her candid opinion of
dancing with students and she volunteered she does not like to dance
with her students at milongas for a number of reasons. 1) like all of
us, she goes to a milonga to have a good time, and dancing with a
beginner leader is not very much fun. 2) if she dances with one student,
all of her students at the milonga might ask her to dance and she would
not get to dance with the people she wants to dance with. 3) she does
dance with her students in the classroom setting and gives them
constructive feedback there, and resents being asked to dance and give
feedback for free at a milonga. These reasons seemed to me to make good
sense and I now don't ask my teachers. However, Trini's posting seemed
to open the door that at least some teachers might enjoy being asked to
dance by their students perhaps even beginners. So now I am back in a
quandary. I don't know if I should ask those that have not yet turned
me down, or feel that maybe Trini is the exception, and most teachers
would rather not dance with beginner leaders at a milonga. I can
definitely tell you, that as a beginner, I would be overjoyed to dance
with any experienced follower, teacher or not. For leaders, it seems
kind of like a chicken and egg situation. To lead well, you must
practice, but to practice, you need a partner, but to get a partner, you
must lead well.
Well, little by little, I think I may be getting better, because,
getting a partner has not been nearly the problem it was when I had only
six months experience. I still a beginner and I still get turned down,
but not nearly as often.
I would be interested in hearing more teachers comment on whether they
would or would not like to be asked to dance at a milonga by a student
and if it makes any difference if the student is a leader or follower.
Have a great tango day.
Ed
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 15:26:49 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teacher - Student relationships
I guess my point was this it is ultimately the
community that judges a teacher. Calling myself the
leader of the free world doesnt make me so. Given
that tango is taught in social circles, as opposed to
a university environment with tenured professorships,
a tango teacher only has "authority" if the community
grants it to that person. That's true regardless if a
teacher is paid or not.
Steve has a good point about making students feel
comfortable dancing with their teachers. Part of
this, I believe, is for students to recognize that
teachers are fallible and that they have the right to
assess their teachers, just as much, as teachers
assess their students.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- jhapark@pennswoods.net wrote:
>
> I disagree. It is not truly sharing if one is being
> paid to teach. You are
> imparting your knowledge for a fee. Hopefully, you
> truly do love what you
> are teaching and enjoy the process thereof and
> that's a key motivation for
> teaching. I prefer the notion that an artist is
> being paid adn paid well;
> they deserve it. The hard work, the passion, the
> investment of time and
> money during their own learning process (education).
> It's an occupation
> like any other.
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 21:53:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: Teacher - Student relationships
Trini wrote:
> I never dance with beginners to Pugliese, DiSarli, or
> Biagi because it would be sheer torture for him/her
> to deal with my interpretation.
This concept of leading seems far more prevalent in instructors than in dancers. Where
the guy's first concern is his partner's comfort, his interpretation, figures, sequences etc.
generally do not become instruments of her torture.
Chris
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Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 15:30:02 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Teacher - Student relationships - DiSarli
I should clarify my statement. DiSarli is my favorite
orchestra, which I listen to all the time. I know
when to pause, when to slow down, when to accent
pieces much better than beginning men (similarly with
Pugliese, etc.). And because the music has meaning
for me, I cannot help but express myself through the
quality of my movement.
I have learned through experience that when I do this
with beginning men (such as slowing down), it can make
them think that they are doing something wrong, and
the dance becomes scary rather than pleasurable for
them.
This way of thinking is more of a function of
experience and knowledge than teacher/non-teacher. It
could also be a function of how satisfied one is with
the level of dancing he/she gets with other dancers.
Dancing with beginners to D'Agostino, Rodriguez,
D'Arienzo, Fresedo, etc. - not a problem for me.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> wrote:
> Trini wrote:
> > I never dance with beginners to Pugliese, DiSarli,
> or
> > Biagi because it would be sheer torture for
> him/her
> > to deal with my interpretation.
>
> This concept of leading seems far more prevalent in
> instructors than in dancers. Where
> the guy's first concern is his partner's comfort,
> his interpretation, figures, sequences etc.
> generally do not become instruments of her torture.
>
> Chris
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2006 01:12:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: Teacher - Student relationships - DiSarli
Trini wrote:
> I know when to pause, when to slow down, when to accent
> pieces much better than beginning men
> when I do this with beginning men (such as slowing down), it can make
> them think that they are doing something wrong,
> This way of thinking is more of a function of
> experience and knowledge than teacher/non-teacher.
This way of thinking one "knows much better" even when finding that the exercise of this
knowledge is detrimental to the dance, is it seems again more a function of instructor.
Whereas to the dancer, anything that makes a partner "think they are doing
something wrong" cannot be better - it is itself wrong, almost by definition.
What comes with the dancer's experience is not so much knowledge but understanding...
that what's right is simply whatever gives each of his varied partners a good time.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [TANGO-L] Teacher - Student relationships - DiSarli
*From:* "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
*To:* TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
*Date:* Mon, 6 Mar 2006 15:30:02 -0800
I should clarify my statement. DiSarli is my favorite
orchestra, which I listen to all the time. I know
when to pause, when to slow down, when to accent
pieces much better than beginning men (similarly with
Pugliese, etc.). And because the music has meaning
for me, I cannot help but express myself through the
quality of my movement.
I have learned through experience that when I do this
with beginning men (such as slowing down), it can make
them think that they are doing something wrong, and
the dance becomes scary rather than pleasurable for
them.
This way of thinking is more of a function of
experience and knowledge than teacher/non-teacher. It
could also be a function of how satisfied one is with
the level of dancing he/she gets with other dancers.
Dancing with beginners to D'Agostino, Rodriguez,
D'Arienzo, Fresedo, etc. - not a problem for me.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> wrote:
> Trini wrote:
> > I never dance with beginners to Pugliese, DiSarli,
> or
> > Biagi because it would be sheer torture for
> him/her
> > to deal with my interpretation.
>
> This concept of leading seems far more prevalent in
> instructors than in dancers. Where
> the guy's first concern is his partner's comfort,
> his interpretation, figures, sequences etc.
> generally do not become instruments of her torture.
>
> Chris
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 18:14:29 -0700
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Teacher - Student relationships - DiSarli
Trini de Pittsburgh wrote:
> I should clarify my statement. DiSarli is my favorite
> orchestra . . .
> And because the music has meaning
> for me . . .
. . .
> Dancing with beginners to D'Agostino, Rodriguez,
> D'Arienzo, Fresedo, etc. - not a problem for me.
Trini,
You certainly point out one of the problems as to
dancing with beginners, that of a sensitivity to the
music. But it's not just with beginners.
For me, DiSarli+Podesta, D'Agostino+Vargas, Rodriguez+Moreno,
D'Arienzo+Echague, Fresedo+Ray, would all be painful dancing
with any person who is not sensitive to the music.
That would include beginners, perhaps many though not all,
but would also include a number of (supposedly) advanced
dancers who never achieved an appreciation for these recordings.
Sometimes I sit and watch. It's interesting to see how
many or most of the dancers adjust to different orchestras,
from tanda to tanda,
but there are a few guys who never change, dancing the
same to a smooth DiSarli as to a frenetic Biagi as to
the crooning of Beron with Calo.
Even after years of dancing, they stand out from the crowd.
Trini, for me the real question is whether the other person
has achieved an appreciation for the music, in which case
the dance, even with a beginner, is more pleasurable.
DJ Dave de Denver
