4264 Technical vs Sensual
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 13:56:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "joaquin" <joaquinenrobeas@excite.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<br><br><br>Caroline Polack escribio:
"Last night, when we practiced, I had to stop everything and exchange roles
with him so that I was the man and he was the woman just so I could show him
how to lead because he was getting so caught up in the technical that I felt
as though we were robots being programmed to do such and such exactly. By
playing the leader, I was able to show him the more natural and sensual
movements of pivoting a woman, of guiding her to where he wants to go with
his shoulders, with the slight pressure of his hand on her back, of leaning
over just slightly as if to walk again the wind.
He was very embarrassed that I forced him to follow but after a few songs,
he began to understand in ten minutes what the last six months had failed to
teach him - which is Tango is a sensual dance between a man and a woman,
done in time to music. Everything else will follow with practice and
improved body memory."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, Engineers are from somewhere else, but you, Caroline, are definitely from heaven! Just goes to show that some of the best tango teaching moments are brought to us by our partners, especially those who have a vested interest in our understanding of the dance.
>From Mars,
joaquin
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 11:32:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Very interesting indeed!
I have been learning to dance tango about a year and a half now, taken many classes, danced at the local and other milongas, with a permanent partner and with other women and here's what I experience.
I have been introduced to many "steps" or "figures" (and even came up with some of my own) and continue to think up things. But, at a milonga I still only dance very basic stuff. Women seem to like dancing with me because, they say, i dance to the music and with sensuality.
During practice sessions with my partner or with others or in classes, I can do the new figures, but many of them still do not come naturally to me at the real thing, at the milonga, where dancing is what matters and not how many different figures I can put together.
I suppose once those new figures come to me naturally and as a response to the music and I can do them well (until I can do them both technically well and with sensuality to the music and to my dancing partner), I will attempt using them, - until then my dancing partners and I enjoy the moments of dancing bliss with whatever does come naturally.
Also, I gained my current wonderful permanent dancing partner due to a simple fact that a year ago when she started, she was all uptight trying to "perform steps" and I suggested to her to just dance and we danced and still dance.
...dubravko
==================================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
==================================================
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 18:43:32 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: joaquinenrobeas@excite.com, tango-l@mit.edu
oaquin <joaquinenrobeas@excite.com> escribi?: >>>>
Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, Engineers are from somewhere else,
joaquin
Engineers are from Vulcan, the fictional planet from Star Trek.
Vulcan is the Roman name for Hephaestus, the Greek God of Technology.
Hephaestus had a lab with twenty furnaces running 24/7, made robots and produced lightnings.
He had broken feet and couldn't dance - why wonder - but had Venus as wife!
Lucia ;->
PS Once they learn the algorithm, many engineers dance very well, and have beautiful wives too...
Esa persona especial te espera en Yahoo! Encuentros
?Dejate encontrar!
Descubrilo aqu?
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:15:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - a follow-up
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I did not mean to imply in my previous post that simple dancing can be technically sloppy. On the contrary, there is a lot of good technical details in simple dancing as well, from posture and maintaining the embrace to timing, partner sensitivity, and precision, to say the least.
...dubravko
==================================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
==================================================
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:41:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hello,
There are many engineers and scientist types who dance - our club is mostly those. We affectionately call them our nerds and I am the alpha nerd. I do a good amount of teaching, especially beginners classes
I find our nerds very easy to teach to and visiting teachers tend to agree. It depends a lot on the teacher, I suppose.
The thing is that you have to be able to give very precise instructions and choose your words carefully, and if you achieve that you can get by with minimal talking and no need for metaphors and stories. Saying "Like So" and showing the same thing three times with some slight variation in timing, foot placement, or chirality (like mirror-image moves), tends to not do the aha trick at all, but only confuses ppl further.
If instead you say, then do a 270 with your left foot pointing at 7 o'clock and your nose a quarter turn ahead of your hips. Or, the center of rotation is here and the leaders feet are on the circumference of the circle. Or the leader is stationary and the follower moves around art a radius of.... Or, dispel the momentum of the rebound from the torque into a forward step. Stuff like that.
It is possible that the teacher in the class who you refer to, was more the artistic kind of explainer who was speaking a different language from your engineer friend, and not merely Spanish or something. When you need to communicate efficiently with a scientist or engineer, nothing beats talking like one yourself. Your friend might have gotten it in 10 words.
Tine
Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
oaquin escribi?: >>>>
Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, Engineers are from somewhere else,
joaquin
Engineers are from Vulcan, the fictional planet from Star Trek.
Vulcan is the Roman name for Hephaestus, the Greek God of Technology.
Hephaestus had a lab with twenty furnaces running 24/7, made robots and produced lightnings.
He had broken feet and couldn't dance - why wonder - but had Venus as wife!
Lucia ;->
PS Once they learn the algorithm, many engineers dance very well, and have beautiful wives too...
Esa persona especial te espera en Yahoo! Encuentros
?Dejate encontrar!
Descubrilo aqu?
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 02:55 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Yale Tango Club wrote:
> The thing is that you have to be able to give very precise
> instructions... you say, then do a 270 with your left foot pointing at
> 7 o'clock and your nose a quarter turn ahead of your hips. Or, the
> center of rotation is here and the leaders feet are on the
> circumference of the circle. Or the leader is stationary and the
> follower moves around art a radius of.... Or, dispel the momentum of
> the rebound from the torque into a forward step. Stuff like that.
Well, that gets my vote for Crackpot Tango Teaching Method of the Year.
Caroline wrote:
> Just dance, I would tell him, stop trying to break down every single
> step into a mathematical equation ... he was getting so caught up in
> the technical that I felt as though we were robots being programmed to
> do such and such exactly. By playing the leader, I was able to show
> him the more natural and sensual movements ... he began to understand
> in ten minutes what the last six months had failed to teach him -
> which is Tango is a sensual dance between a man and a woman, done in
> time to music. Everything else will follow...
Caroline, you are teaching just fine. Don't let any tango engineer
pretending to be a teacher tell you otherwise.
Chris
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:06:12 +0200
From: "Aron ECSEDY" <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: "Tango-L" <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
> > follower moves around art a radius of.... Or, dispel the
> momentum of
> > the rebound from the torque into a forward step. Stuff like that.
>
> Well, that gets my vote for Crackpot Tango Teaching Method of
> the Year.
Eventually, it works at times. In Hungary a great percentage of male dancers
(my guess is well above 50%) are engineers, IT people and alike.
Nevertheless, a teacher should know how to communicate in different ways to
different people. This is the job.
There are dancers who want to hear fairy tales of passion, intimacy and
magic when talking about tango, but everyone with an intermediate level of
skill knows that it is first and primarily understanding of underlying
mechanics, controlling and refining movement and when you mastered that,
then you can take time to create the atmosphere you imagined. Otherwise it
will be only freestyle wrestling.
The best teachers I know use a lot of mathematical and physical concepts or
models - even if they don't exactly use engineer jargon to describe them.
Aron
Ecsedy ?ron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
AIM: ecsedya
ICQ: 46386265
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Az iWiW-en megtal?lhatsz - Find me at iWiW (https://www.iwiw.net/)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 12:51 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Aron wrote:
> In Hungary a great percentage of male dancers (my guess is well
> above 50%) are engineers, IT people and alike.
Then surely they need to be taught less tango engineering, not more.
This "do a 270 with your left foot pointing at 7 o'clock and your nose a
quarter turn ahead" thinking is not the cure for the problem Caroline
describes as turning people into programmed robots. It is the cause.
> The best teachers I know use a lot of mathematical and physical
> concepts or models
That could easily explain why well above 50% of your male dancers are
engineers, IT people and alike - can anyone else understand the lessons?
Let alone benefit from them.
> everyone with an intermediate level of skill knows that it is first
> and primarily understanding of underlying mechanics...
Actually, no they don't. Just as everyone with an intermediate level of
skill in walking down the street doesn't know it is 'first and primarily
understanding mechanics'. It is first natural motion. If it wasn't,
no-one would be able to take his/her first step.
Or to dance tango. As Jeff's Brother Reginald might have said ;)
"If almost any ***** in Bs As could dance tango, how difficult can it be?"
Chris
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:37:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hey
Huh?
So if you showed up to my class, you would be happy if I told you
Hey Everybody, thanks so much for coming and for giving me your
money, the Tango is a Feeling that is Danced, just walk, feel the
music, go with the flow, make the connection, have the blissful
communication, ok now do it. Oh that? It's a left half turn, it goes like
so (quick demo of several variations, with other stuff in between),
I could explain the step but it's really not about knowing the steps,
you don't need all that, the ladies just want to connect to the partner
and to the music. Besides if you can't do the left turn naturally, and I
would have to explain efficiently to you which foot to put where and
what to do with your upper body, you would dance like a robot.
Besides nobody ever explains anything in Argentina! They all just
totally know what to do. Those classes they have are for tourists
and losers.
If you explain things with precision it is good for everybody. If ppl have
the mechanics down, it might take them a class or two and some
practice, they can next forget about the mechanics and think about
interpretation, artistry, etc. If you have ppl learning and becoming very
good in spite of the lack of an efficient explanation, you will find that
often they have a logical and efficient way of processing and storing
the jumble of incoming information.
Sorry if you are unable to comprehend precise instructions. Logical
thought and verbal precision in teaching are generally appreciated
by everybody, but I guess it has the effect of making skill attainable,
and of making things easy, and where is the magic in that? All the fluff
would just sound like, well, fluff.
Or are you just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing?
Tine
"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
Aron wrote:
> In Hungary a great percentage of male dancers (my guess is well
> above 50%) are engineers, IT people and alike.
Then surely they need to be taught less tango engineering, not more.
This "do a 270 with your left foot pointing at 7 o'clock and your nose a
quarter turn ahead" thinking is not the cure for the problem Caroline
describes as turning people into programmed robots. It is the cause.
> The best teachers I know use a lot of mathematical and physical
> concepts or models
That could easily explain why well above 50% of your male dancers are
engineers, IT people and alike - can anyone else understand the lessons?
Let alone benefit from them.
> everyone with an intermediate level of skill knows that it is first
> and primarily understanding of underlying mechanics...
Actually, no they don't. Just as everyone with an intermediate level of
skill in walking down the street doesn't know it is 'first and primarily
understanding mechanics'. It is first natural motion. If it wasn't,
no-one would be able to take his/her first step.
Or to dance tango. As Jeff's Brother Reginald might have said ;)
"If almost any ***** in Bs As could dance tango, how difficult can it be?"
Chris
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 10:55:38 -0500
From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340605110855re02290flf6366555ff0d6286@mail.gmail.com>
On 5/11/06, Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hey
>
> Huh?
> So if you showed up to my class, you would be happy if I told you
> Hey Everybody, thanks so much for coming and for giving me your
> money, the Tango is a Feeling that is Danced, just walk, feel the
> music, go with the flow, make the connection, have the blissful
> communication, ok now do it.
I believe the important thing in teaching and learning tango is to
achieve a balance between knowledge (technical expertise) and feeling.
What I think Caroline, Lucia, and Chris are pointing out is that in
the US and Europe there is too much emphasis on technical teaching and
learning, and not enough on appreciating the connection with your
partner and the music. After all, tango is a dance between a man and a
woman (usually) that is connected to tango music. It is all to common
for American and European men (and women) to become 'step machines' or
'technique freaks' who fail to grasp the passion of the music that is
tango. (I'm talking about the real emotional feelings generated by man
and woman feeling the music and sharing the feelings in their dance,
not the ersatz dramatic pasion sin emocion portrayed for an audience.)
Nevertheless, Tine has made an important point. You can't teach music
and partner appreciation by just talking about it. You have to given
students certain technical skills so they have balance, connection,
some understanding of musical structure, navigational possibilities,
etc., so they can construct a dance. I have seen too many people flop
around on the milonga dance floor, throwing their bodies to the wind
(and dragging their partners with them) to recognize the need for
that. Also, in our (overly) analytical culture, many people learn to
dance by being given a logical structure to bend their bodies around.
However, after reaching a certain basic level of technical expertise,
tango students need to understand that what makes our dance so
different from ballroom dance is that tango is primarily about
connection - with your partner, with the music, with the other dancers
on the floor (in navigation), it is not about executing memorized
figures. So instructors need to constantly remind their students that
technique and steps taught are only a means to an end - the end that
Argentines talk about - feeling the music and flowing with your
partner. If you don't reach that level, you're not really dancing
tango.
Ron
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 09:26:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: burl burl <burlq7@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
The kind of teaching where they tell you to walk like a cat or sink into the floor is never
very useful. A good teacher should be able to tell you exactly what to do without
resorting to analogy. Your leg does go someplace specific (to within a half inch) and
your shoulders or embrace shift quatifiable amounts. The best teachers can spot
what you're doing wrong and say--"you need to put your left shoulder a few inches farther forward in this turn, so your partner feels the lead...etc"
If you tell someone to walk like a cat they may easily think that means slinking around your hips latin-style or coming down on your toes first or forcing your head
forward like a duck. Just because you can dance it doesn't mean you can teach. It is
not enough to demonstrate how things are done by example. A good teacher corrects
minute details, and not by saying "A slightly smaller cat" rather by saying, "2 inches
to the right with your Knee bent slighty more." If you can't be very specific you either
don't know what you want or don't have the skill to see how to correct your student.
Sloppy teaching tends to propate myths--for example, how many times have we heard
one beginner say to another:
"Don't use your arms, you lead with your shoulders."
Now does this mean I have my arms at my side? Does it mean I can't apply any
preasure with my arms? Do I just kind of leave my arms behind when I turn my
shoulders? A good teacher can tell me exacactly what to do, a bad one just
gives me more platitudes to repeat. I will just go around saying, "Listen to the music"
and "it is all in the connection" and "You can dance a whole dance and only
move 2 feet down the dancefloor if you really feel the music." (which you can do
but is sure plays havoc with the line of dance).
yours
Burleigh
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:16:30 EDT
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: burlq7@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu
Again, the central position. I can relate only to teaching skiing (16
years) and will only comment about teaching and learning styles. I have been
learning Tango for about two plus years.
First, a good teacher knows their students, which includes their
backgrounds, other interests etc. (this takes time and can't be done in one class, too
much time)
Second, a good teacher adapts their teaching methods to the their client
base and the learning styles of that base.
Three, a good teacher can teach privates to a group (size of group will
definitely affect the how).
This comes over time. It took me 5 years of teaching to understand these
principles. Much was by trial and error. It was not that I taught poorly IMHO
during those first years, but I was not getting through to the maximum. Largely
because I would have a plan for a particular class and I would stick to it. I
was teaching the plan, I was not totally understanding the student and the
student's needs.
The breakthrough occurred when during my first class of one year [I teach 2
hour classes, once a week for eight weeks and they are the same group], I gave
7 or 8 different explanations for the same skill set I was trying to instill
in my class. I did not tell them anything other than I was going to feed
them a lot of information and it was unlikely they would remember it all of it
nor was it important that they remembered it all. What was important was
that at the end of class I asked each what ONE point they remembered. Their
answer gave me their learning style, that gave me the insight I needed to feed
information to them that from which they would be able to process and
progress. Over the years, I have learned there are at least three different
learning styles in each class. So I adapt my lesson plan to those styles and to the
individuals.
The nice thing is that some are visual learners, some are technically
oriented and if you are successful with the techies, their improvement will help
the visual learner's. I think others have presented the learning styles were
nicely so I won't rehash them.
The major difference with Tango lessons from skiing is, you have couples
with different learning styles that learn together and you have a larger group
to deal with. So it is best to assume that you will have all learning styles
and you should look for the couple of dominant styles in the group.
The key is make it fun and to do this good teachers adapt. I would like to
add, I did not take any of the comments on teaching ( dealing with engineers)
as being exclusive methods of teaching only a way of dealing with that
learning style.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle
In a message dated 5/11/2006 9:27:05 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
burlq7@yahoo.com writes:
The kind of teaching where they tell you to walk like a cat or sink into the
floor is never
very useful. A good teacher should be able to tell you exactly what to do
without
resorting to analogy. Your leg does go someplace specific (to within a half
inch) and
your shoulders or embrace shift quatifiable amounts. The best teachers can
spot
what you're doing wrong and say--"you need to put your left shoulder a few
inches farther forward in this turn, so your partner feels the lead...etc"
If you tell someone to walk like a cat they may easily think that means
slinking around your hips latin-style or coming down on your toes first or
forcing your head
forward like a duck. Just because you can dance it doesn't mean you can
teach. It is
not enough to demonstrate how things are done by example. A good teacher
corrects
minute details, and not by saying "A slightly smaller cat" rather by saying,
"2 inches
to the right with your Knee bent slighty more." If you can't be very
specific you either
don't know what you want or don't have the skill to see how to correct your
student.
Sloppy teaching tends to propate myths--for example, how many times have we
heard
one beginner say to another:
"Don't use your arms, you lead with your shoulders."
Now does this mean I have my arms at my side? Does it mean I can't apply
any
preasure with my arms? Do I just kind of leave my arms behind when I turn my
shoulders? A good teacher can tell me exacactly what to do, a bad one just
gives me more platitudes to repeat. I will just go around saying, "Listen
to the music"
and "it is all in the connection" and "You can dance a whole dance and only
move 2 feet down the dancefloor if you really feel the music." (which you
can do
but is sure plays havoc with the line of dance).
yours
Burleigh
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save
big.
Tango-L mailing list
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 14:07:29 -0400
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: burl burl <burlq7@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Some people learn by being told exactly where to place the foot...some people learn from more subtle imagery... it's not about good teacher/bad teacher...perhaps more about whether you respond in a right or left brained kind of way...
we are talking about MOVEMENT after all...the imagery helps many of us put the whole thing together...
and yes, there is nothing like having your foot physically placed in the correct position by the observant teacher... but it's not good/bad -one or the other....
my .02...
burl burl wrote:
>*The kind of teaching where they tell you to walk like a cat or sink into the floor is never
> very useful. A good teacher should be able to tell you exactly what to do without
> resorting to analogy. * Your leg does go someplace specific (to within a half inch) and
> your shoulders or embrace shift quatifiable amounts. The best teachers can spot
> what you're doing wrong and say--"you need to put your left shoulder a few inches farther forward in this turn, so your partner feels the lead...etc"
>
>
> If you tell someone to walk like a cat they may easily think that means slinking around your hips latin-style or coming down on your toes first or forcing your head
> forward like a duck. Just because you can dance it doesn't mean you can teach. It is
> not enough to demonstrate how things are done by example. A good teacher corrects
> minute details, and not by saying "A slightly smaller cat" rather by saying, "2 inches
> to the right with your Knee bent slighty more." If you can't be very specific you either
> don't know what you want or don't have the skill to see how to correct your student.
>
> Sloppy teaching tends to propate myths--for example, how many times have we heard
> one beginner say to another:
>
> "Don't use your arms, you lead with your shoulders."
>
> Now does this mean I have my arms at my side? Does it mean I can't apply any
> preasure with my arms? Do I just kind of leave my arms behind when I turn my
> shoulders? A good teacher can tell me exacactly what to do, a bad one just
> gives me more platitudes to repeat. I will just go around saying, "Listen to the music"
> and "it is all in the connection" and "You can dance a whole dance and only
> move 2 feet down the dancefloor if you really feel the music." (which you can do
> but is sure plays havoc with the line of dance).
>
>yours
> Burleigh
>
>
>New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 12:39:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Tine wrote:
> If you explain things with precision it is good
> for everybody.
No, it really isn't. It's very good for people who
learn that way. It's very bad for people who do not -
and it's incredibly bad for people for whom thinking
about words interferes with their experience of
movement. I suggest, as someone else has, that if you
find a very high percentage of the folks in your
classes learn that way, it is not just because your
target population is full of that type of learner, but
also because you have sorted out the ones who learn
differently. They concluded early on that tango is
not their type of dance.
Some people can learn a movement just by watching
someone else perform it; other people may swear they
have never seen a movement in their lives - even if
they themselves use it all the time. Some people can
learn a movement only if it is explained; others can
learn it only if they are walked through it. Some
people can learn to repeat a rhythm by being told the
count (1 and 2 and 3, pause); some need to hear a
mnemonic phrase (peas and carrots); some have to say
the count or the phrase out loud while doing the move.
Some people find an analytical, verbal approach to
tango, complete with practicing everything on the
other side as well, to be incredibly effective; some
people find that as soon as the instructor starts
talking the verbal side of their brain kicks in and
the movement side is out the door.
Many people really learn best of all by using several
of these "channels." My own best path to learning to
lead something is to see it; walk through it behind
the instructor; and then to be back-led through it
repeatedly, taking more and more control of the
movement myself on successive run-throughs until I am
leading it. It sometimes help me refine or improve a
movement to hear a description of the place where the
instructor can see I'm having trouble. This is
instructor-intensive, of course, and I don't
necessarily get it for every move. But it is the very
best, ideal way for me to learn.
We don't all dance the same. We don't all learn the
same. There is no one best way to teach a group -
unless it is to feed information through as many
channels as you can to help as many of the students as
possible. I teach (although not dance) and I know
it's hard to teach people who learn differently than
you do yourself. But just because it's hard doesn't
mean it's not worthwhile if you want to be a good
teacher.
Marisa
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 20:26:28 +0000
From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
OK, so I admit it. I'm an engineer, and I like to learn by detailed analysis
- you may have noticed that from previous posts ;-) One of the things
that attracted me to tango was the complication, the fact that it was not a
choreographed dance, it was totally improvised, that from any position,
there were at least 6 possibilities (right, left, fwd, back, front cross,
back cross, and pause), and that doesn't count boleos, ganchos, and
embellishments. It's like playing chess, with movement.
I'm also a massage therapist - very touchy-feely. One of the things that
attracted me to tango was the great sensuality, the embrace, the hug, the
sharing of energy, the play/game/interchange of emotion and intention.
So tango appeals to both yang and yin halves of me.
--------------------
Several valid points have been made in this thread, and I'd like to clarify
one of them. It's well established that people have their own particular
learning style. Educators and psychologists identify visual, verbal
(analytical), and kinesthetic. A previous post was entirely correct that
people will learn fastest when the information is presented to them to
accomodate their personal learning style.
But the clarification I want to make is that there's a difference between
Learning style, and Dancing style. Does anyone disagree that tango is best
done when analytical thought is suspended, for both the leader and follower
- when everything in your awareness is feeling and emotion? I learned tango
analytically, learning the 8-count basic and progressively more complicated
step patterns, because that's the way tango was taught here 8 years ago. But
I can tell you I distinctly remember the moment, about a year and a half
into my tango career, when I started really dancing, without thinking about
what I was doing. That's the goal, to be able to just dance without thinking
about it. But everyone takes their own path to get there.
J
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:36:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
Anyone know of any studies linking long-term learning
and language? Most of the responses about the
different ways of learning seemed to have focused on
the here-and-now, what is actually happening in class,
for example. And I agree with their suggestions about
flexibility.
However, something a teacher said might not come into
one's understanding until a couple of months or years
after the class. In which case, language might be
necessary for one to processes the information. In
other words, without language, could one successfully
analyze something regardless of how one's learning
process?
For example, when I teach, I may say something and
tell the student to just file it away for now. It
might make more sense later when their motor skills
have adjusted.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Tine wrote:
>
> > If you explain things with precision it is good
> > for everybody.
>
> No, it really isn't. It's very good for people who
> learn that way. It's very bad for people who do not
> -
> and it's incredibly bad for people for whom thinking
> about words interferes with their experience of
> movement.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 22:31:25 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com> writes:
[...]
> It's well established that people have their own particular learning
> style.
Is it?
> Educators and psychologists identify visual, verbal (analytical),
> and kinesthetic. A previous post was entirely correct that people
> will learn fastest when the information is presented to them to
> accomodate their personal learning style.
Is that really well established? My suspicion is that almost everyone
can benefit from a variety of approaches, and that teachers who always
use a wide variety will tend to teach better than those who use a few.
Regardless of who their students are.
Briefly quoting a 2005 Demos report
<https://www.demos.co.uk/catalogue/aboutlearning/>:
Third, some teachers, despite the best of intentions, are using
learning styles in ways that constitute poor professional
practice. For example, it is sometimes claimed that learning
styles are largely fixed and innate. This belief ? which is
curiously reminiscent of now largely abandoned notions of fixed
and inherited intelligence ? can lead teachers to label students
as having a particular learning style and so to provide materials
and sources that are appropriate to that style. Students may then
come to internalise this label and think of themselves as a
certain type of learner who should concentrate on this diagnosed
style. In our view, this is poor professional practice that can
damage a student?s learning and development. Whilst is may be
true that some learners have a dominant learning style, a good
education does not limit them to that style or type, but ensures
that students have opportunities to strengthen the other learning
styles.
> But the clarification I want to make is that there's a difference
> between Learning style, and Dancing style. Does anyone disagree that
> tango is best done when analytical thought is suspended, for both
> the leader and follower - when everything in your awareness is
> feeling and emotion? I learned tango analytically, learning the
> 8-count basic and progressively more complicated step patterns,
> because that's the way tango was taught here 8 years ago.
The teacher I most admire (well, admired, since she no longer teaches,
or dances, as far as I know), taught in what seemed to me to be a
beautifully analytic way. But she didn't teach the 8 count basic
(well, not to beginners). She taught walking, changing weight (so you
could avoid bumping in to someone in front), stepping to the side, the
cross (explaining exactly how it worked), and so on. Always
explaining why things worked, why they're good to do, using analogies,
demonstrating, demonstrating errors (so you could see why some things
didn't work), and so on.
> But I can tell you I distinctly remember the moment, about a year
> and a half into my tango career, when I started really dancing,
> without thinking about what I was doing. That's the goal, to be able
> to just dance without thinking about it. But everyone takes their
> own path to get there.
Yeah, but I'm not sure that requires a whole lot of difference in
teaching. I suspect a variety of approaches works best for everyone.
Including analytic explanation, and including concrete "you should
have turned a little more just then, because ..." advice, but I
suspect precise advice like "turn 270 degrees here" and the like isn't
very useful---tango's surely fuzzier than that, where I need to be
depends on the details of where my partner is (not where she "should"
be, but where she in fact is).
Trying to "make things simpler to begin with" by giving concrete step
patterns and things, let alone trying to make them "precise", strikes
me as unlikely to be the best way to teach anyone---especially
engineers.
Better to make sure you teach enginners why things are the way they
are, and (when things can be different) why and how they can be
different: teach them how to take things apart, and how to put them
back together. And, sure, specific patterns of steps that work well.
And, of course, leaders should learn how to follow. Maybe not
brilliantly, but well enough so that we can begin to understand what
the attraction of following good leaders is (and to try to capture
aspects of that in our leading). Don't know how to make that happen
more often, though.
It was easy enough for me, because all the teachers I knew recommended
it, and I was mostly learning in regular private lessons anyway, so it
was straightforward enough to start learning to follow as well as to
lead. Trying to learn in classes (by following other leaders who also
haven't quite got it) seems likely not to work that well.
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 18:03:36 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
Cc: yaletangoclub@yahoo.com
Good teachers use language their students understand.
I've seen many, many teachers talk about 12 o'clock, 3'
o'clock, 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock, but not one complaint
on Tango-L about that. There's no difference between
using the language of hours on a clock face, and using
the language of math to discuss the mechanics of tango.
Tine teaches grad students at a world-class university;
her students don't just understand what she has to say,
they probably demand she discusses tango in those terms.
She could say "pivot pi radians clockwise" and everyone
know "turn right on one foot until you face the wall
behind you".
Also I'm willing to bet while Tine is saying stuff along
the lines of "turn 270 degrees this way and point your
nose thataway" she also demonstrates it with her body,
as many times as needed. Then she probably has people
do it themselves, and goes around offering corrections,
up to the point of grabbing linbs and shifting them as
needed, having men experience the womans part, using
poetic analogies, or giving them whatever visual, auditory
and/or kinesthetic cluesticks needed until they grok.
It's important to get as much mileage out of each word
as possible. Speaking your student's language is the
best way of conveying information. If talking about
"Bose-Einstein condensates" (shout out to Rob Hauk)
trips your students' triggers, then go for it.
Just as important are: feeding students piece by piece,
setting contexts for what you teach them, avoiding brain
dump mode (intermediates "passing on what they know"),
striving for perfection when you'd be lucky to get "good
enough", and giving instructions that accomplish multiple
outcomes.
Christopher
Yale Tango Club wrote:
> Hey
>
> Huh?
> So if you showed up to my class, you would be happy if I told you
> Hey Everybody, thanks so much for coming and for giving me your
> money, the Tango is a Feeling that is Danced, just walk, feel the
> music, go with the flow, make the connection, have the blissful
> communication, ok now do it. Oh that? It's a left half turn, it goes like
> so (quick demo of several variations, with other stuff in between),
> I could explain the step but it's really not about knowing the steps,
> you don't need all that, the ladies just want to connect to the partner
> and to the music. Besides if you can't do the left turn naturally, and I
> would have to explain efficiently to you which foot to put where and
> what to do with your upper body, you would dance like a robot.
> Besides nobody ever explains anything in Argentina! They all just
> totally know what to do. Those classes they have are for tourists
> and losers.
>
> If you explain things with precision it is good for everybody. If ppl have
> the mechanics down, it might take them a class or two and some
> practice, they can next forget about the mechanics and think about
> interpretation, artistry, etc. If you have ppl learning and becoming very
> good in spite of the lack of an efficient explanation, you will find that
> often they have a logical and efficient way of processing and storing
> the jumble of incoming information.
>
> Sorry if you are unable to comprehend precise instructions. Logical
> thought and verbal precision in teaching are generally appreciated
> by everybody, but I guess it has the effect of making skill attainable,
> and of making things easy, and where is the magic in that? All the fluff
> would just sound like, well, fluff.
>
> Or are you just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing?
> Tine
>
>
> "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> Aron wrote:
>
>
>> In Hungary a great percentage of male dancers (my guess is well
>> above 50%) are engineers, IT people and alike.
>>
>
> Then surely they need to be taught less tango engineering, not more.
>
> This "do a 270 with your left foot pointing at 7 o'clock and your nose a
> quarter turn ahead" thinking is not the cure for the problem Caroline
> describes as turning people into programmed robots. It is the cause.
>
>
>> The best teachers I know use a lot of mathematical and physical
>> concepts or models
>>
>
> That could easily explain why well above 50% of your male dancers are
> engineers, IT people and alike - can anyone else understand the lessons?
>
> Let alone benefit from them.
>
>
>> everyone with an intermediate level of skill knows that it is first
>> and primarily understanding of underlying mechanics...
>>
>
> Actually, no they don't. Just as everyone with an intermediate level of
> skill in walking down the street doesn't know it is 'first and primarily
> understanding mechanics'. It is first natural motion. If it wasn't,
> no-one would be able to take his/her first step.
>
> Or to dance tango. As Jeff's Brother Reginald might have said ;)
> "If almost any ***** in Bs As could dance tango, how difficult can it be?"
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> ************************
> www.yaletangoclub.org
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 22:30:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
One thing that hasn't been brought out is that
although tango is about connection, a student may not
be ready for that or only go so far in it, regardless
of their learning style.
We teach beginning classes in different venues - one
has more couples aged 40+ and one with grad students
aged under 30 (lots of them engineers). We've found
that the older populace are inclined to the sensual
side, whereas the younger crowd likes the technical
side. But I have also taught younger people that like
the sensual/kinesthetic side. What is a little
different with the latter is that they seem to be more
mature and have experienced life a little more.
It took Sean & I about 6 years of tango to become more
than a collection of steps. The change for us came
after we had to deal with a personal trauma (clinical
depression). We have since noticed that others who
also had similar traumas took to close-embrace (which
I think is more touchy-feely than open) much much more
quickly than those who did not (based on others'
reactions to our trauma). We can now appreciate the
saying that tango is "a sad thought danced".
It's just one more aspect to add to the mix that can
affect how one learns and one can teach.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 12:44:49 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: Tango-l <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
On 12/05/2006, at 6:36 AM, Trini apparently wrote:
> ... In
> other words, without language, could one successfully
> analyze something regardless of how one's learning
> process?
>
I do not have the research.
However, I think you are perhaps reducing all teaching to the teaching
of analysis - even though I do not think this is actually what you do
in your classes, from what you have said.
People do not necessarily need to analyse in order to learn. Analysis
is one possible learning process, and the language of analysis is one
possible language through which to express what is being taught, and
what is being learned.
From my observation, many people (not usually me btw!) learn best from
imagery - it has exactly the desired effect, of them embodying a
particular kind of movement. This is why many teachers have such a
rich vocabulary of imagery, to get across the bodily ideas to a wide
range of people.
These students do not learn to 'analyse' the movement. They cannot
explain, in terms of physics or anything else, 'how' it works.
Nevertheless, their _body_ knows how it works (well, actually their
subconscious kinesthetic mind knows) , which is all we need!
Analysis is just one of many tools for achieving that state of bodily
knowledge.
OTOH, words of imagery can also be 'filed away for future reference',
and can suddenly become useful years later.
This whole argument seems to be a typical one of people vigorously
defending what works for them as being the only or best way, when there
are many paths, and possibly even many destinations...
my 2.2 c (taxes included)
Gary
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 21:30:20 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Gary,
While analysis is definitely one of the great tools for learning ( or not ),
it may have another purpose.
The important purpose of analysis is synthesis. Analysis gives power of
knowledge which can be used to explain unknown and invent new.
Once something is "analyzed", it can be used to assemble new things out of
its pieces. And success of that process gives us the insurance that that
analysis was good.
Language of physics is not necessary for analysis. Analysis extracts little
basic parts and their interactions.
Analysis can be directly used in teaching, but I think only after students
already know what the subject is about - not through the words, but through
personal experience to which certain words are assigned to. If not yet - it
is a teacher's task to analyze and present it in comprehendible order to
learners.
What is better, to dance a lot trying all the time something new and to be
on the edge of the best completely submerging into instincts, or deep
analysis? Both.
Igor.
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 01:36:58 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@TANGODC.COM>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: Tango-l <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> From my observation, many people (not usually me btw!) learn best from
> imagery - it has exactly the desired effect, of them embodying a
> particular kind of movement. This is why many teachers have such a
> rich vocabulary of imagery, to get across the bodily ideas to a wide
> range of people.
>
It's worth noting that poetic imagery (or prosaic, for that matter) is
to some degree inevitable when discussing movement and bodily alignment,
since our languages tend to lack a precise vocabulary for describing
kinesthetic and organic sensation. Those two kinds of perception--
kinesthetic (awareness of the body in action, e.g., through space) and
organic (awareness of the body as an entity, including balance, muscle
tension, posture)-- are really our 6th and 7th senses.
Physics, to some degree, supplies us with usable terms: but these were
Already taken from classical languages in a vaguely metaphorical way
("energy," for instance, ultimately deriving from a Greek word for
"work"), before they acquired their more technical meanings in their new
context.
If we look to other disciplines like physics for our terms, we might
also do well to keep the tradition alive, coining our own vaguely
metaphorical terms and using imagery where it works.
That said...
I sincerely doubt that any stable vocabulary will ever emerge for tango
dancers anyway, since there is so little agreement about how to dance
nicely in the first place. In the end, having explained things a few
different ways-- and in terms both planetary and poetical-- I often find
myself pointing to the damn speaker and going: "That-- do that! 'Voom'..."
And do we really have to form a consensus about what "Voom" means?
Jake Spatz
https://tangoDC.com
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 17:17:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Technical vs Sensual - Where are the Engineers
from?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Chris,
I've gone to reading the Tango-L archives starting with 2006. Reading your constant reminding of the list about how bad teaching is something to avoid... is very refreshing. mario
