5382 tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 20:37:27 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a
dancer to a musical instrument
Please, tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a
musical instrument.
I think, technically and educationally it is a perfect association.
It should be something cultural, which I miss. What is going on?
Please, help me to understand.
Privately if you want.
Please, it is important for me.
Igor Polk
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 20:50:32 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
a dancer to a musical instrument
Igor,
The main issue wasn't comparing a person to an instrument
so much as it was the relationship between two people. In
the violin thread, it was about the man using the woman.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Please, tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a
> dancer to a
> musical instrument.
>
> I think, technically and educationally it is a perfect
> association.
>
> It should be something cultural, which I miss. What is
> going on?
> Please, help me to understand.
>
> Privately if you want.
>
> Please, it is important for me.
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:13:27 -0500
From: buffmilonguera@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
a dancer to a musical instrument
To: tango-L@mit.edu
nd the women keep telling the men not to refer to
them in that way and they keep justifying their way
of thinking.
And would the men please
stop telling us how we are supposed to feel about
it!!!!!
I think Nancy said it pretty well - several women have shared their
feelings, and I guarantee that we could produce many others who would
agree - it matters less that you think it should not bother us, and
more that you respect the fact that we've told you that it does (and
btw, I am using "you" in the global sense, not you personally. I am
willing to believe that you do mean it to be received as a positive
comparison - but, as one on the receiving end, I can assure you that it
isn't.....for a whole host of reasons that may or may not have anything
to do with you or you alone, and have much to do with experiences such
as the women on this thread have already described.
If you say something to me that I tell you leaves me feeling hurt or
offended - isn't the more respectful, or at least polite thing to do is
not repeat it - rather than tell me I shouldn't be bothered? Maybe
something along the lines of, "I really
meant it to be a compliment, but I am sorry that it didn't sound like
that to you. I think you dance beautifully...etc." I don't think this
kind of sensitivity to someone's feelings is a cultural thing......
Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and
what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go
Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks!
-----Original Message-----
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Sent: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:37 pm
Subject: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a
dancer to a musical instrument
Please, tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a
musical instrument.
I think, technically and educationally it is a perfect association.
It should be something cultural, which I miss. What is going on?
Please, help me to understand.
Privately if you want.
Please, it is important for me.
Igor Polk
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
https://webmail.aol.com
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 01:36:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
a dancer to a musical instrument
In addition to all the reasons already stated (I especially concur with the statements essentially saying that
feelings can not be argued away as in "you should not feel that way"), using the violin comparison is inadequate because it does not even apply to tango (or dancing in general).
In any dance that I know, and especially so in tango, there are two creative subjects, two actors interacting through dance, which involves body, mind, and soul.
In playing any instrument that I know, there is a subject using body, mind, and soul and an object which only has body - no mind and no soul.
We do not desire one of the partners in tango to have and to use no mind and no soul, do we?
(Some may argue that some instruments, like perhaps a Stradivarius violin, have a soul - certainly not a mind - but I believe that to be a fallacy. Another subject for a different interest group.)
...dubravko
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================
----- Original Message ----
From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 11:50:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a musical instrument
Igor,
The main issue wasn't comparing a person to an instrument
so much as it was the relationship between two people. In
the violin thread, it was about the man using the woman.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Please, tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a
> dancer to a
> musical instrument.
>
> I think, technically and educationally it is a perfect
> association.
>
> It should be something cultural, which I miss. What is
> going on?
> Please, help me to understand.
>
> Privately if you want.
>
> Please, it is important for me.
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular
social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 11:18:02 +0100
From: desdelasnubes@web.de
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
a dancer to a musical instrument
To: buffmilonguera@aol.com, tango-L@mit.edu
Dear Nancy, Astrid, buffmilonguera, Trini,
thank you all for your helpful postings that seem to already have
produced effect by raising the level of sensitivity on this list.
It might have a wonderful effect on the dancing, too.
Maybe we can keep in our generous minds that
males often have this need for very explicit statements,
whereas subtle allusions do not easily get through.
Simplicity should be our key goal and unnecessary complexity
avoided. A very straightforward approach might seem less
glamourous, but indeed that trivial approach should be taken.
We realize men like to use well-known, often cited,
worn-out metaphors like the one with the violine.
This might be linked with their drive to play
(with toys, brushes, violins, whatever), "homo ludens".
We often know better, but we do not always let them know,
we rather apply the KISS-principle
"Keep It Simple, Stupid"
and we can be generous and still reward them with our admiring
looks ;)
Anna
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: <buffmilonguera@aol.com>
> Gesendet: 23.12.07 06:17:47
> An: tango-L@mit.edu
> Betreff: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a musical instrument
>
> nd the women keep telling the men not to refer to
> them in that way and they keep justifying their way
> of thinking.
> And would the men please
> stop telling us how we are supposed to feel about
> it!!!!!
>
> I think Nancy said it pretty well - several women have shared their
> feelings, and I guarantee that we could produce many others who would
> agree - it matters less that you think it should not bother us, and
> more that you respect the fact that we've told you that it does (and
> btw, I am using "you" in the global sense, not you personally. I am
> willing to believe that you do mean it to be received as a positive
> comparison - but, as one on the receiving end, I can assure you that it
> isn't.....for a whole host of reasons that may or may not have anything
> to do with you or you alone, and have much to do with experiences such
> as the women on this thread have already described.
>
> If you say something to me that I tell you leaves me feeling hurt or
> offended - isn't the more respectful, or at least polite thing to do is
> not repeat it - rather than tell me I shouldn't be bothered? Maybe
> something along the lines of, "I really
> meant it to be a compliment, but I am sorry that it didn't sound like
> that to you. I think you dance beautifully...etc." I don't think this
> kind of sensitivity to someone's feelings is a cultural thing......
>
> Have you joined the Buffalo Argentine Tango Society Yahoo! group yet?
> It's easy, and the best way to make sure you know what we're doing and
> what's going on with the Argentine tango in and around Buffalo......go
> Society > follow the directions to join BATS_tango. Thanks!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
> Sent: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:37 pm
> Subject: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a
> dancer to a musical instrument
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please, tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a
> musical instrument.
>
> I think, technically and educationally it is a perfect association.
>
> It should be something cultural, which I miss. What is going on?
> Please, help me to understand.
>
> Privately if you want.
>
> Please, it is important for me.
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> https://webmail.aol.com
>
Der WEB.DE SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen!
https://smartsurfer.web.de/?mc0071&distributionid 0000000066
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:29:07 -0500
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
a dancer to a musical instrument
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Igor:
I'm not going to justify a woman's feelings but something similar happened to me. I was a dance host on a cruise ship. There was no Argentine Tango but there was American tango. The only person who I regularly danced American tango with was a 88 year old (not typo) woman on vacation with her 98 (no typo) husband. We were the only ones on the floor dancing tango.
After we danced, Flora got all the compliments and I got none. Finally, one night, I said out loud "And I guess I did NOTHING!!" It felt like I got NO recognition for my skill by making Flora look good on the floor.
Dancing tango is supposed to be a partnership where BOTH partners get credit for their skill and creativity. Anything that eliminates credit for one of the partners with the other claiming he did all the "all the work" would upset the other person.
When I compliment a woman, I specifically mention her skill or creativity. If she moves well, I'll tell her she glides like a skater across the ice because minimal effort is needed to lead. If she does excellent adornments, I'll tell her I regret I can't see them while dancing. I tell her what she did well without comparison to an object.
For men who don't understand, I'll try this comparison, which I'm sure will get me into trouble. How would YOU feel if a woman said after making love, "It was like having sex with a vibrator?" If that doesn't work, I'm sure the women can come up with better examples.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
One week to New Year's Eve in New York at www.celebratetango.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 11:37 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a musical instrument
Please, tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a musical instrument.
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:00:09 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
a dancer to a musical instrument
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
Dear Anna.
If you think that: " We realize men like to use well-known, often cited,
worn-out metaphors like the one with the violin.
This might be linked with their drive to play
(with toys, brushes, violins, whatever), "homo ludens"."
If you think that a violin and a brush is the same,
and if you think that a comparison of a dancer to a violin or to a brush has
the same meaning,
And if you think that a musician is the same like a boy or like a
yard-keeper,
I have a conclusion that you have no idea
1. What music is about,
2. What it make to be a good musician ( all musicians are good, otherwise
they are not )
3. You dance tango rather like a broom than a violin.
Buy,
Where is my guitar...
Igor Polk
PS. I do not know guys. You are talking here about Feelings... Creativity,
...Freedom... bla-bla-bla.
And can not see behind the obvious.
Do not understand a poeting comparison,
Do not see meaing in abstract.
That tells me way more about your abilities as dancers than all your
postings combined.
Gosh, why did I get to this list !
---------------------
Girls, you are violins ( or berimbau ) in tango either you want it or not !
Just pray to get in the hands of a talented musician.
Otherwise you will squeak, scream and cry like you do it now.
God save you and Merry Christmas !
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 03:23:08 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
a dancerto a musical instrument
an instrument is a thing, Igor. Women are human. Got it?
> Please, tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a
> musical instrument.
>
> I think, technically and educationally it is a perfect association.
>
> It should be something cultural, which I miss. What is going on?
> Please, help me to understand.
>
> Privately if you want.
>
> Please, it is important for me.
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:30:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
a dancer to a musical instrument
To: tango-L@mit.edu
This is getting to be really amazing to me. Why is it so hard to accept the following:
1. If someone says to me, I do not like being called or compared to such-and-such for whatever reason or no reason at all but just pure dislike, I just should not do it, if for no other reason, for the respect of someone's wishes, regardless of your original motivation - I could find another term/comparison that works, if I really need one,
2. I do not care how one couches it, but an instrument is an object manipulated or operated by an agent for a purpose. In this process, the instrument has no voice. The agent is designing and applying the process, the same agent may be also designing the instrument, the agent is moreover selecting the goals for the process - instrument has no say whatsoever but to behave according to the agent's designs. Wow! Apply that to tango now. Why not dance with a rubber doll or something instead?
No doubt that a musician needs to understand the instrument and play it the way it needs to be played, but that's besides the point - the instrument is still an object - no wishes, no desires, no soul, no creativity, nothing, just beauty, either in and of itself or in the hands of a skillful player. Wow!
You know, years back I dated this lady who used to call me a "stud." I resented that and after she repeated that a few times and I explained to her why that was really not a compliment to me. She had no problems accepting my wishes and, while she certainly did not mean anything bad by attaching that term to me, and meant is a compliment, she never ever used it again. She was sensitive and non-judgmental enough to just accept my wishes. Am I making this clear?
I would love to engage in discussing men's-women's ways in general, but that is not subject of this interest group. I suppose I wrote those lines above in order to share my amazement with some of the views which differ so much from mine that they deserve comments. I do not mean to change anyone's mind or to prove what is "right" or what is "wrong."
...dubravko
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================
----- Original Message ----
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 1:00:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a musical instrument
Dear Anna.
If you think that: " We realize men like to use well-known, often
cited,
worn-out metaphors like the one with the violin.
This might be linked with their drive to play
(with toys, brushes, violins, whatever), "homo ludens"."
If you think that a violin and a brush is the same,
and if you think that a comparison of a dancer to a violin or to a
brush has
the same meaning,
And if you think that a musician is the same like a boy or like a
yard-keeper,
I have a conclusion that you have no idea
1. What music is about,
2. What it make to be a good musician ( all musicians are good,
otherwise
they are not )
3. You dance tango rather like a broom than a violin.
Buy,
Where is my guitar...
Igor Polk
PS. I do not know guys. You are talking here about Feelings...
Creativity,
...Freedom... bla-bla-bla.
And can not see behind the obvious.
Do not understand a poeting comparison,
Do not see meaing in abstract.
That tells me way more about your abilities as dancers than all your
postings combined.
Gosh, why did I get to this list !
---------------------
Girls, you are violins ( or berimbau ) in tango either you want it or
not !
Just pray to get in the hands of a talented musician.
Otherwise you will squeak, scream and cry like you do it now.
God save you and Merry Christmas !
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 10:51:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] A comparison that works - was Re: tell me why
someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a musical instrument
To: tango-L@mit.edu
If I wanted to compare, I would compare certain aspects of tango to going to a park and throwing a frisbee back and forth with a friend. If you think about it, I am sure you'll find many similarities.
...dubravko
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:59:35 -0500
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
a dancer to a musical instrument
This dispute about the metaphors is really about two different
underlying issues: collaboration in partner dance, and respecting the
feelings of others.
Collaborative contributions to a tango
Some of us evidently think that the collaborative ratio of creative
contribution in a tango is always 100% leader, 0% follower (ie, no
collaboration). (Any women in that camp? I would be interested to
know.) Others feel that the collaborative ratio might ideally be 51%
leader, 49% follower, like jazz musicians improvising off each other.
To me the collaborative ratio ideally is 60%-80% lead and 40-20% follow.
Even a single ratio is too simple: it slides back and forth through a
single dance. The lead could be a 100% decision maker in a certain part
of the dance and collaborate with the follow in a pause in the music
(adornos etc), and then it returns to 100% lead again. Or a lead could
be completely flexible throughout, waiting for the follow to contribute
something interesting at any point, and work off that. I notice that
some leads like to control the lyrical part of a tango but are more
interested in collaboration during the choppier parts that build tension
in the music. Some days I like to follow 100% and contribute nothing.
Let me acknowledge that it's HARDER for leads to collaborate. They
already have to think ahead and have a plan what to do, communicate it
to the follow, navigate the floor traffic, and respond on the fly to the
follow's ability to follow or not follow the lead (she might be on a
different foot or not understand the lead). Making the planning part
into a conversation adds a very challenging layer of complexity to the
process. Some leads are overwhelmed by collaboration and other leads
simply don't want to.
I agree with Krasimir's point that a dance can become murky (and feel
icky) because too much dominance being asserted back and forth can
easily become a battle rather than a duet. But I think a murky dance is
primarily caused by mismatches in several other things (partner skill,
familiarity with partner, paying attention to partner, flexibility in
response to change). It all boils down to "know your partner."
There are certain partners we click with and the dance is enjoyable, and
other partners that we just don't seem to click with. After a few spins
we know whom we have dance chemistry with.
Women's feelings and respect for them
Men:
Specifically in the context of social dancing (but not romantic love or
poetry or many other contexts) -- women in the U.S. are offended by the
idea that a follower is an inanimate object being manipulated by the
leader to create his own expression of the dance. OFFENSIVE TO US.
OFFENSIVE TO YOUR DANCE PARTNERS. There is no "why". It just "is".
This is the social and moral equivalent of telling an African-American
that racist jokes, or being legally required to sit in the back of the
bus due to skin color, should not bother them. This is like asking them
"why" they feel bad about racism.
The possible choices for you in this matter are: A. Do not hurt our
feelings in this way. B. Hurt our feelings in this way.
"Convincing us that our feelings are illogical so the feelings will go
away" is not a possible choice -- any more than "deciding that gravity
will not apply to you today" is a possible choice.
If you seek to understand these feelings, read Michael's post below.
Better yet, learn to follow, and dance for several hours following some
leader who controls 100% of everything and gets irritated with you if
you deviate even a hair's breadth from his plan.
Michael wrote:
> Igor:
> I'm not going to justify a woman's feelings but something similar happened to me. I was a dance host on a cruise ship. There was no Argentine Tango but there was American tango. The only person who I regularly danced American tango with was a 88 year old (not typo) woman on vacation with her 98 (no typo) husband. We were the only ones on the floor dancing tango.
>
> After we danced, Flora got all the compliments and I got none. Finally, one night, I said out loud "And I guess I did NOTHING!!" It felt like I got NO recognition for my skill by making Flora look good on the floor.
>
> Dancing tango is supposed to be a partnership where BOTH partners get credit for their skill and creativity. Anything that eliminates credit for one of the partners with the other claiming he did all the "all the work" would upset the other person.
>
> When I compliment a woman, I specifically mention her skill or creativity. If she moves well, I'll tell her she glides like a skater across the ice because minimal effort is needed to lead. If she does excellent adornments, I'll tell her I regret I can't see them while dancing. I tell her what she did well without comparison to an object.
>
> For men who don't understand, I'll try this comparison, which I'm sure will get me into trouble. How would YOU feel if a woman said after making love, "It was like having sex with a vibrator?" If that doesn't work, I'm sure the women can come up with better examples.
>
> Michael Ditkoff
> Washington, DC
> One week to New Year's Eve in New York at www.celebratetango.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 11:37 PM
> Subject: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a musical instrument
>
>
> Please, tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a musical instrument.
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
>
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
https://arborlaw.com
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 09:21:39 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
adancerto a musical instrument
Why not?
Why a human cannot be an instrument in someone other's hands in creating
something beautiful?
In the name of Art?
Who says it cannot be?
And please, don't confuse me with some unexperienced dancer. Quite on the
contrary . . .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2007 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] tell me why someone can not stand comparison of
adancerto a musical instrument
> an instrument is a thing, Igor. Women are human. Got it?
>
>
>> Please, tell me why someone can not stand comparison of a dancer to a
>> musical instrument.
>>
>> I think, technically and educationally it is a perfect association.
>>
>> It should be something cultural, which I miss. What is going on?
>> Please, help me to understand.
>>
>> Privately if you want.
>>
>> Please, it is important for me.
>>
>> Igor Polk
>>
>>
>>
