5293 Tete and Astird
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 12:41:38 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tete and Astird
Astrid,
Indeed, it is interesting why you are so bored to watch Tete ( and Silvia )?
Without any hesitation you assumed that is it so because Tete is bad: "Dance
is too fast", "No accentuating music", and cheap tricks like "Look Ma, no
hands", and so on...
Have you checked the opposite idea?
Igor.
PS I like you anyway !
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 13:04:04 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fw: Tete and Astird
reply-type=response
> what do you mean by the opposite idea? I know Tete is famous but that does
> not oblige me to automatically like him. Maybe you have a better video
> clip of him?
>
>> Astrid,
>>
>> Indeed, it is interesting why you are so bored to watch Tete ( and
>> Silvia )?
>>
>> Without any hesitation you assumed that is it so because Tete is bad:
>> "Dance
>> is too fast", "No accentuating music", and cheap tricks like "Look Ma, no
>> hands", and so on...
>>
>> Have you checked the opposite idea?
>>
>> Igor.
>> PS I like you anyway !
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 10:10:36 -0500
From: m i l e s <tangobliss@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Tete and Astird
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Astrid,
Tete is the originator of modern close embrace tango. And in the
video that Ney shot, you're also seeing Tete trying to show off,
something else you should remember, the man was never comfortable in
front of crowds, and if the tango looks rushed, take something into
account: Tete has control over all four feet!
How do I know this ? I just spent 4 days with Daniel Trenner, who was
Tete's student for several years. I showed him the same video, and
asked his opinion, mind you I said the same thing you did when I saw
the video. Daniel corrected me, pointing out that yes Tete is showing
off, it *IS* a performance you know...however, the thing to remember
when watching this video is that not only is Silvia the vassal through
which Tete is working and has control over her feet. Note that she
does no embellishments, no adornments, nothing. He even back leads
her through leading him.
Watch it again.
M i l e s.
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:05:14 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Tete and Astird
To: "m i l e s" <tangobliss@gmail.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Tete is the originator of modern close embrace tango.
yeah, well, here we go. "Modern close embrace tango" for one thing is a myth
as tango is usually danced in close embrace in BA, Tete-follower or not.
Besides Tete calls his style salon tango.
And in the
> video that Ney shot, you're also seeing Tete trying to show off,
> something else you should remember, the man was never comfortable in
> front of crowds, and if the tango looks rushed, take something into
> account: Tete has control over all four feet!
What is the big deal about having control of the woman's feet? A good leader
usually does. And it better be without rush.
>
Daniel corrected me, pointing out that yes Tete is showing
> off, it *IS* a performance you know...however, the thing to remember
> when watching this video is that not only is Silvia the vassal through
> which Tete is working and has control over her feet.
as I said, there is nothing special in this, that is what tango basically is
all about. And I know I will be flamed for this, but I don't find Daniel
Trenner that much of a dancer, it is just that he had a lot of influence on
the tango scene in the US.
Note that she
> does no embellishments, no adornments, nothing.
yeah, and why is that good?
He even back leads
> her through leading him.
I don't think I understand this statement.
Anyway, whether the woman does embellishments or not is usually the man's
decision. Some men enjoy conversation and give the woman some freedom and
moments to do her own thing and contribute to the form of the dance, others
are macho enough to lead absolute everything, thus exerting total control
over the woman's feet as you call it. If the man is good and puts a lot of
feeling into it, this can be intoxicating for the man, if he is mediocre it
can feel a bit boring and cramped. But one does not need to learn from Tete
to be able to do it, plenty of men can who have never met either Tete or
Susana Miller or Yvonne Meissner or anyone of that group.
I am not saying that one style is better than the other, I enjoy both, as
long as a man is a good dancer and cares about the woman in whatever is his
own way but what I do not like is people claiming that they own the tango or
that they have invented it. At least Fabian Salas is honest enough to say
that he simply took what was already there and analysed it and altered and
added a few little things here and there to suit his own taste.
As far as I can see, Tete is not doing anything special and Susana Miller is
basically a clever business woman. Maybe Tete is too, anyway, I know a
Japanese lady who went to BA, sat in a milonga and there Tete walked up to
her and said:"I am Tete, would you like to take private lessons with me?" He
probably could smell that she would be able to pay for it (she is) but it
did not work as that particular lady is a fan of Fernanda and Guillermo.
>
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 02:15:48 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Tete and Astird
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
yikes, typos !
If the man is good and puts a lot of
> feeling into it, this can be intoxicating for the man
I mean, for the woman, of course.
Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 11:44:09 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Tete and Astird
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA025521EA6C@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Astrid, these old Argentinian guys (I am not specifically talking about any particular dancers here) are not saints or role models, far from it. They are good dancers however in the scope of what they do which is social dancing on crowded milonga floors. A lot of what looks great on stage could never survive in that environment as I am sure you are well aware. To make the dance interesting and fit into those crowded conditions requires a lot of subtlety and that is what I admire. Yes, the showing off may be regretable, but it is basically their world which they have kept going through a lot of turmoil in Argentina so we are privileged that it still exists and we can be invited into it. However to some extent we are always going to be outsiders when we go to places like El Beso. Plus, the particular dance Igor posted was a Valz which clearly was not choreagraphed so it is a bit unfair to compare it to different (much slower and more varied) music danced by professional dancer!
s. But what would I know, I have only been dancing for three years - I am sure after I have danced weekly for a few decades (Tete style) I will have a totally different view of the world (and dance) :-).
Victor Bennetts
>As far as I can see, Tete is not doing anything special and Susana Miller is
basically a clever business woman. Maybe Tete is too, anyway, I know a
Japanese lady who went to BA, sat in a milonga and there Tete walked up to
her and said:"I am Tete, would you like to take private lessons with me?" He
probably could smell that she would be able to pay for it (she is) but it
did not work as that particular lady is a fan of Fernanda and Guillermo.
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Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:58:16 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fw: Tete and Astird
To: "Victor Bennetts" <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Astrid, these old Argentinian guys (I am not specifically talking about
> any particular dancers here) are not saints or role models, far from it.
> They are good dancers however in the scope of what they do which is social
> dancing on crowded milonga floors. A lot of what looks great on stage
> could never survive in that environment as I am sure you are well aware.
No need to point that out, yes.
Plus, the particular dance Igor posted was a Valz which clearly was not
choreagraphed so it is a bit unfair to compare it to different (much slower
and more varied) music danced by professional dancer!
Are you trying to say that a professional dancer is unable to dance without
choreography?
The pro dancers that I like all have a very firm base in dancing at
milongas, and still look way better than Tete, IMO
This is not necessarily my favourite vals but just to make comparison easier
here is a vals by Jorge Torres, about who I posted earlier. Jorge teaches
wonderful vals moves in class, great fun, very smooth and soft, and
perfectly matching the 3/4 rhythm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRQGaPbeaPI
Balmaceda is also really good at vals, for exemple here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8nJ03utgA8
As you are maybe able to see, you don't really need any choreo to dance
something like this, just the ability for those moves.
> s. But what would I know, I have only been dancing for three years - I am
> sure after I have danced weekly for a few decades (Tete style) I will have
> a totally different view of the world (and dance) :-).
Well, I am glad you admit that to yourself and leave your options open for
learning more. And who knows, your views on style may change. The nice thing
about being a woman in tango is that you get to know so many different
things, limited only by the number of men you dance with and how they (the
men) grow. As one German tango writer once said:"Tango is...for women lack
of men, for men lack of themselves". So it would be totally
counterproductive for a woman to fanatically insist on any one style, unless
she wants to be stuck in one particular place with one particular set of
people, unable and unwilling to dance with anyone else, a situation which
would bore me.
