4848 Tourists & Janis - another perspective
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 09:47:26 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tourists & Janis - another perspective
It hit me that when people talk about respect to old traditions at Buenos
Aires milongas, and everything else, they are talking about Preservation.
There are so many beautiful National Parks in America, so many places where
plants and animals and panoramas are preserved so that people can observe,
learn, and enjoy what was there on the planet no so long time ago. Without
preservation all that would be gone !
It is great that there are many tango tourists in Buenos Aires, and they
even "help the economy", and they dance tango and carry it away to the
world, but intuition tells me the more tourists the less original the place
is. It is a common sense that we should try to preserve what was there
before - it is the root which feeds all of us!
Preserve - means use only "established trails". "do not live garbige, do not
feed bears". Do not pick up flowers.
Do not shout, do not use photography flash ( flashlight is prohibited in
many natural sanctuaries ), "keep dogs on leash". Everyone knows, it is not
about YOU, it is about THEM. It is about OTHERS who would like to visit a
virgin place, or as it nearly as it can be.
Of course, there are always revolutionaries which would love to through the
"old order" in the garbage can to get their chance to rule as soon as
possible, but that is not whom I care about. I see them and I am sure I will
see them even more everywhere from Alaska to Vladivostok - they are no
different anywhere. They do not need preservation - they are strong
themselves.
But Buenos Aires is a unique place. It is a sanctuary. And any invasion
dilutes purity. To safe the atmosphere and customs at the Buenos Aires
Milongas should be the goal of all consciousness tango people. It is like a
museum for me. What should civilized people do with museums?
I wish to think that most tango people understand. And I've understood it
better myself thanks to Janis's list and the whole crazy reaction to it. And
especially Nina's letter.
Igor Polk
PS, please, I understand that milongas are not "museums". It is just a
figure of speech.
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 12:19:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tourists & Janis - another perspective
Nina,
As always, you bring out some very good points and I enjoy
reading your emails. However, let's not rationalize or
excuse rude behavior, as if the ends justify the means.
That works on both sides, as well. Had Janis put a little
more work into it, I am sure she could have made her point
without insulting people. But that is her responsibility
to own, not others to excuse.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
> Hello, everybody,
>
> It seems that everyone took so very personally what Janis
> had
> written. I have a different take on it. I assume that
> most of the
> dancers who had replied and were personally offended have
> at least
> one place in the world where they are not considered to
> be
> foreigners. I do not have such a place, and so here is
> my view:
>
> Sometimes, it is a great disadvantage to be immediately
> spotted as
> being a tourist/foreigner. This usually is a clear
> disadvantage in
> any new situation where you have not had the time to
> assess the
> place, the action of the people and their manners or
> attitudes. You
> are spotted before you realize where you are in regard to
> other people present.
>
> If you are in a part of town of any city in the world
> that is known
> for unpredictable or dangerous situations, there is a
> clear
> disadvantage in standing out from the crowd.
>
> In Buenos Aires, if you are spotted in the milongas as
> being a
> foreigner/tourist before you assess the situation, the
> codes, the
> people (whether or not you know any of them), the music -
> the general
> feeling of the milonga - it can greatly alter your
> experience of
> it. It changes how people see you, talk to you, ask you
> to dance,
> accept your invitations, what they talk to you about -
> everything!
>
> What Janis has described can build some awareness of
> certain
> signs. If dancers can become aware of some of these
> behaviors that
> give them away without their consent, they can control
> it. I think
> that it is much more advantageous to choose to be spotted
> as a
> foreigner/tourist or not instead of it happening by
> default.
>
> There may be some days when one says "Who cares! I am a
> foreigner
> and I don't care who knows it or why." There may be
> other days when
> one might decide to have a different kind of experiences
> that are not
> marked by clear labels of who they are or where they are
> from. I
> think that it is best if dancers have a choice in that
> and what Janis
> has written can help them make that choice from a place
> of awareness.
>
> The trick is not to be personally attached to any of the
> behaviors
> that Janis has described and not take the description as
> a mortal offense.
>
> My very best regards,
>
> Nina
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 14:58:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Iron Logic <railogic@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tourists & Janis - another perspective
Hello People,
After all this noise I read the post fom Janis.
I agree we can and should take everything in a way that will benifit us..totally. Nevertheless her putdown of CITA deserves a comment ...or else unsuspecting listoros may take her seriously:). Janis is only throwing mud on rival business. Not a bad business practice at all in my opinion.. good luck to her.
Clearly a few old codgers BsAs are not amused by the success of CITA. Pls remember so called milongueros danced normally with all movements when they were young. Now they are old and can not move much, and some people pass this LIMITTION for a virtue! I mean with all respect for them, please dont be jeolus. People! when you dance and get old you will become them, no need to waste time taking lessons from them...they dont even know what they do, watch them if you like, that might help.
On the opposing side there may be the musically challenged 'dancers' who may want pass of this as virtue as well....rebelion, innovation etc etc...[many many nice words].
So they all have place in this world, so do we... let them do their thing:).
There were great dancers in the past, there will be amazing dancers of new styles!.
cheers, IL
"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
Nina,
As always, you bring out some very good points and I enjoy
reading your emails. However, let's not rationalize or
excuse rude behavior, as if the ends justify the means.
That works on both sides, as well. Had Janis put a little
more work into it, I am sure she could have made her point
without insulting people. But that is her responsibility
to own, not others to excuse.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Nina Pesochinsky wrote:
> Hello, everybody,
>
> It seems that everyone took so very personally what Janis
> had
> written. I have a different take on it. I assume that
> most of the
> dancers who had replied and were personally offended have
> at least
> one place in the world where they are not considered to
> be
> foreigners. I do not have such a place, and so here is
> my view:
>
> Sometimes, it is a great disadvantage to be immediately
> spotted as
> being a tourist/foreigner. This usually is a clear
> disadvantage in
> any new situation where you have not had the time to
> assess the
> place, the action of the people and their manners or
> attitudes. You
> are spotted before you realize where you are in regard to
> other people present.
>
> If you are in a part of town of any city in the world
> that is known
> for unpredictable or dangerous situations, there is a
> clear
> disadvantage in standing out from the crowd.
>
> In Buenos Aires, if you are spotted in the milongas as
> being a
> foreigner/tourist before you assess the situation, the
> codes, the
> people (whether or not you know any of them), the music -
> the general
> feeling of the milonga - it can greatly alter your
> experience of
> it. It changes how people see you, talk to you, ask you
> to dance,
> accept your invitations, what they talk to you about -
> everything!
>
> What Janis has described can build some awareness of
> certain
> signs. If dancers can become aware of some of these
> behaviors that
> give them away without their consent, they can control
> it. I think
> that it is much more advantageous to choose to be spotted
> as a
> foreigner/tourist or not instead of it happening by
> default.
>
> There may be some days when one says "Who cares! I am a
> foreigner
> and I don't care who knows it or why." There may be
> other days when
> one might decide to have a different kind of experiences
> that are not
> marked by clear labels of who they are or where they are
> from. I
> think that it is best if dancers have a choice in that
> and what Janis
> has written can help them make that choice from a place
> of awareness.
>
> The trick is not to be personally attached to any of the
> behaviors
> that Janis has described and not take the description as
> a mortal offense.
>
> My very best regards,
>
> Nina
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2007 23:45:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tourists & Janis - another perspective
NO, I disagree with you, Igor. What Janis wrote IS NOT "important, invaluable...".
How can you say that condemning/almost slandering (or is it libelling? I can never remember) others and other organisations is "important, invaluable..."...???
There is no justification for doing such a thing, AND unsolicited for that matter. It was merely an unjustifiable attack. Such guff shouldn't be on the List. I was brought up to believe "Live and let live". For example, I am a reactive person, but not pro-active (Macchiavelli was RIGHT). There's nothing wrong with (in my book, anyway) retaliating to an attack. Janis's attack however, was an unsolicited condemnation of CITA and of anyone who doesn't think about tango the way she thinks of it.
That is not good stuff!
Now, Janis knows what I think. I fact I saw her yesterday evening. Funny thing is that face-to-face, Janis does seem to listen (to an extent) to what others are thinking/saying, although, having said that, it does not change her opinion. The List medium tends to be in many instances a one-way street, in which it's easy to launch an attack on somthing irrespective of possible consequences (eg flaming).
Regards
Dani
Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
I vote for Nina!
Igor Polk
PS
Janis, Please, accept my apologies for some short temper characters in here!
What you write is important, invaluable, please continue !
PPS
Wow, how tables are turning !!!
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 14:21:46 -0700
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tourists & Janis - another perspective
<9fb1555a0703201421j1ce6138bk2abfe69a096d622c@mail.gmail.com>
Dani.
Decaf.
Neil
On 3/19/07, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:
>
> NO, I disagree with you, Igor. What Janis wrote IS NOT "important,
> invaluable...".
>
> How can you say that condemning/almost slandering (or is it libelling? I
> can never remember) others and other organisations is "important,
> invaluable..."...???
>
> There is no justification for doing such a thing, AND unsolicited for
> that matter. It was merely an unjustifiable attack. Such guff shouldn't be
> on the List. I was brought up to believe "Live and let live". For example, I
> am a reactive person, but not pro-active (Macchiavelli was RIGHT). There's
> nothing wrong with (in my book, anyway) retaliating to an attack. Janis's
> attack however, was an unsolicited condemnation of CITA and of anyone who
> doesn't think about tango the way she thinks of it.
>
> That is not good stuff!
>
> Now, Janis knows what I think. I fact I saw her yesterday evening. Funny
> thing is that face-to-face, Janis does seem to listen (to an extent) to what
> others are thinking/saying, although, having said that, it does not change
> her opinion. The List medium tends to be in many instances a one-way street,
> in which it's easy to launch an attack on somthing irrespective of possible
> consequences (eg flaming).
>
> Regards
>
> Dani
>
>
>
> Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> I vote for Nina!
>
> Igor Polk
> PS
> Janis, Please, accept my apologies for some short temper characters in
> here!
> What you write is important, invaluable, please continue !
>
> PPS
> Wow, how tables are turning !!!
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:25:56 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tourists & Janis - another perspective
Neil.
Arsehole.
Dani
Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com> wrote:
Dani.
Decaf.
Neil
On 3/19/07, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ wrote:
>
> NO, I disagree with you, Igor. What Janis wrote IS NOT "important,
> invaluable...".
>
> How can you say that condemning/almost slandering (or is it libelling? I
> can never remember) others and other organisations is "important,
> invaluable..."...???
>
> There is no justification for doing such a thing, AND unsolicited for
> that matter. It was merely an unjustifiable attack. Such guff shouldn't be
> on the List. I was brought up to believe "Live and let live". For example, I
> am a reactive person, but not pro-active (Macchiavelli was RIGHT). There's
> nothing wrong with (in my book, anyway) retaliating to an attack. Janis's
> attack however, was an unsolicited condemnation of CITA and of anyone who
> doesn't think about tango the way she thinks of it.
>
> That is not good stuff!
>
> Now, Janis knows what I think. I fact I saw her yesterday evening. Funny
> thing is that face-to-face, Janis does seem to listen (to an extent) to what
> others are thinking/saying, although, having said that, it does not change
> her opinion. The List medium tends to be in many instances a one-way street,
> in which it's easy to launch an attack on somthing irrespective of possible
> consequences (eg flaming).
>
> Regards
>
> Dani
>
>
>
> Igor Polk wrote:
> I vote for Nina!
>
> Igor Polk
> PS
> Janis, Please, accept my apologies for some short temper characters in
> here!
> What you write is important, invaluable, please continue !
>
> PPS
> Wow, how tables are turning !!!
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:41:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tourists & Janis - another perspective
To: dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu, Tango Tango
BOTH OF YOU GO TO YOUR ROOMS!
--- Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
<dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:
> Neil.
>
> Arsehole.
>
> Dani
>
> Tango Tango <tangotangotango@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dani.
>
> Decaf.
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>
> On 3/19/07, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ wrote:
> >
> > NO, I disagree with you, Igor. What Janis wrote IS
> NOT "important,
> > invaluable...".
> >
> > How can you say that condemning/almost slandering
> (or is it libelling? I
> > can never remember) others and other organisations
> is "important,
> > invaluable..."...???
> >
> > There is no justification for doing such a thing,
> AND unsolicited for
> > that matter. It was merely an unjustifiable
> attack. Such guff shouldn't be
> > on the List. I was brought up to believe "Live and
> let live". For example, I
> > am a reactive person, but not pro-active
> (Macchiavelli was RIGHT). There's
> > nothing wrong with (in my book, anyway)
> retaliating to an attack. Janis's
> > attack however, was an unsolicited condemnation of
> CITA and of anyone who
> > doesn't think about tango the way she thinks of
> it.
> >
> > That is not good stuff!
> >
> > Now, Janis knows what I think. I fact I saw her
> yesterday evening. Funny
> > thing is that face-to-face, Janis does seem to
> listen (to an extent) to what
> > others are thinking/saying, although, having said
> that, it does not change
> > her opinion. The List medium tends to be in many
> instances a one-way street,
> > in which it's easy to launch an attack on somthing
> irrespective of possible
> > consequences (eg flaming).
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Dani
> >
> >
> >
> > Igor Polk wrote:
> > I vote for Nina!
> >
> > Igor Polk
> > PS
> > Janis, Please, accept my apologies for some short
> temper characters in
> > here!
> > What you write is important, invaluable, please
> continue !
> >
> > PPS
> > Wow, how tables are turning !!!
> >
> >
> >
>
>
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
Get your own web address.
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 22:47:42 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tourists & Janis - another perspective
To: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>, dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu,
Hey, Nancy, I've a better idea... How about I come to yours...? >:-)))))
Dani >:-)))))
NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
BOTH OF YOU GO TO YOUR ROOMS!
--- Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
wrote:
> Neil.
>
> Arsehole.
>
> Dani
>
> Tango Tango wrote:
> Dani.
>
> Decaf.
>
> Neil
>
>
>
>
> On 3/19/07, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ wrote:
> >
> > NO, I disagree with you, Igor. What Janis wrote IS
> NOT "important,
> > invaluable...".
> >
> > How can you say that condemning/almost slandering
> (or is it libelling? I
> > can never remember) others and other organisations
> is "important,
> > invaluable..."...???
> >
> > There is no justification for doing such a thing,
> AND unsolicited for
> > that matter. It was merely an unjustifiable
> attack. Such guff shouldn't be
> > on the List. I was brought up to believe "Live and
> let live". For example, I
> > am a reactive person, but not pro-active
> (Macchiavelli was RIGHT). There's
> > nothing wrong with (in my book, anyway)
> retaliating to an attack. Janis's
> > attack however, was an unsolicited condemnation of
> CITA and of anyone who
> > doesn't think about tango the way she thinks of
> it.
> >
> > That is not good stuff!
> >
> > Now, Janis knows what I think. I fact I saw her
> yesterday evening. Funny
> > thing is that face-to-face, Janis does seem to
> listen (to an extent) to what
> > others are thinking/saying, although, having said
> that, it does not change
> > her opinion. The List medium tends to be in many
> instances a one-way street,
> > in which it's easy to launch an attack on somthing
> irrespective of possible
> > consequences (eg flaming).
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Dani
> >
> >
> >
> > Igor Polk wrote:
> > I vote for Nina!
> >
> > Igor Polk
> > PS
> > Janis, Please, accept my apologies for some short
> temper characters in
> > here!
> > What you write is important, invaluable, please
> continue !
> >
> > PPS
> > Wow, how tables are turning !!!
> >
> >
> >
>
>
< y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
Get your own web address.
Dani
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:49:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tourists & Janis - another perspective
Not interested in running a day care.
--- Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
<dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:
> Hey, Nancy, I've a better idea... How about I come
> to yours...? >:-)))))
> Dani >:-)))))
>
> NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> BOTH OF YOU GO TO YOUR ROOMS!
>
>
>
> --- Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
> wrote:
>
> > Neil.
> >
> > Arsehole.
> >
> > Dani
> >
> > Tango Tango wrote:
> > Dani.
> >
> > Decaf.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/19/07, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ wrote:
> > >
> > > NO, I disagree with you, Igor. What Janis wrote
> IS
> > NOT "important,
> > > invaluable...".
> > >
> > > How can you say that condemning/almost
> slandering
> > (or is it libelling? I
> > > can never remember) others and other
> organisations
> > is "important,
> > > invaluable..."...???
> > >
> > > There is no justification for doing such a
> thing,
> > AND unsolicited for
> > > that matter. It was merely an unjustifiable
> > attack. Such guff shouldn't be
> > > on the List. I was brought up to believe "Live
> and
> > let live". For example, I
> > > am a reactive person, but not pro-active
> > (Macchiavelli was RIGHT). There's
> > > nothing wrong with (in my book, anyway)
> > retaliating to an attack. Janis's
> > > attack however, was an unsolicited condemnation
> of
> > CITA and of anyone who
> > > doesn't think about tango the way she thinks of
> > it.
> > >
> > > That is not good stuff!
> > >
> > > Now, Janis knows what I think. I fact I saw her
> > yesterday evening. Funny
> > > thing is that face-to-face, Janis does seem to
> > listen (to an extent) to what
> > > others are thinking/saying, although, having
> said
> > that, it does not change
> > > her opinion. The List medium tends to be in many
> > instances a one-way street,
> > > in which it's easy to launch an attack on
> somthing
> > irrespective of possible
> > > consequences (eg flaming).
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Dani
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Igor Polk wrote:
> > > I vote for Nina!
> > >
> > > Igor Polk
> > > PS
> > > Janis, Please, accept my apologies for some
> short
> > temper characters in
> > > here!
> > > What you write is important, invaluable, please
> > continue !
> > >
> > > PPS
> > > Wow, how tables are turning !!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> < y el tango que tu amas
> te quema en su llama>>
> de: Bailarina de tango
> por: Horacio Sanguinetti
>
>
>
>
> Get your own web address.
>
>
>
> Dani
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
The fish are biting.
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2007 15:49:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tourists & Janis - another perspective
Not interested in running a day care.
--- Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
<dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:
> Hey, Nancy, I've a better idea... How about I come
> to yours...? >:-)))))
> Dani >:-)))))
>
> NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> BOTH OF YOU GO TO YOUR ROOMS!
>
>
>
> --- Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
> wrote:
>
> > Neil.
> >
> > Arsehole.
> >
> > Dani
> >
> > Tango Tango wrote:
> > Dani.
> >
> > Decaf.
> >
> > Neil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 3/19/07, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ wrote:
> > >
> > > NO, I disagree with you, Igor. What Janis wrote
> IS
> > NOT "important,
> > > invaluable...".
> > >
> > > How can you say that condemning/almost
> slandering
> > (or is it libelling? I
> > > can never remember) others and other
> organisations
> > is "important,
> > > invaluable..."...???
> > >
> > > There is no justification for doing such a
> thing,
> > AND unsolicited for
> > > that matter. It was merely an unjustifiable
> > attack. Such guff shouldn't be
> > > on the List. I was brought up to believe "Live
> and
> > let live". For example, I
> > > am a reactive person, but not pro-active
> > (Macchiavelli was RIGHT). There's
> > > nothing wrong with (in my book, anyway)
> > retaliating to an attack. Janis's
> > > attack however, was an unsolicited condemnation
> of
> > CITA and of anyone who
> > > doesn't think about tango the way she thinks of
> > it.
> > >
> > > That is not good stuff!
> > >
> > > Now, Janis knows what I think. I fact I saw her
> > yesterday evening. Funny
> > > thing is that face-to-face, Janis does seem to
> > listen (to an extent) to what
> > > others are thinking/saying, although, having
> said
> > that, it does not change
> > > her opinion. The List medium tends to be in many
> > instances a one-way street,
> > > in which it's easy to launch an attack on
> somthing
> > irrespective of possible
> > > consequences (eg flaming).
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Dani
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Igor Polk wrote:
> > > I vote for Nina!
> > >
> > > Igor Polk
> > > PS
> > > Janis, Please, accept my apologies for some
> short
> > temper characters in
> > > here!
> > > What you write is important, invaluable, please
> > continue !
> > >
> > > PPS
> > > Wow, how tables are turning !!!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> < y el tango que tu amas
> te quema en su llama>>
> de: Bailarina de tango
> por: Horacio Sanguinetti
>
>
>
>
> Get your own web address.
>
>
>
> Dani
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
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