4776 Transition of Tango Music
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:49:25 -0700
From: "Gregory" <gren@gren-music.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: TC Discuss List <tangocolorado@yahoogroups.com>
Hello All,
As a dedicated musician and dancer, I worry about the future of Tango ? the
music and the dance. This is why I first posted my thoughts on Tango as a
polyphonic form, comparable to Baroque music.
Polyphonic music is not just counterpointed. It is the whole philosophy
of structure ,phrasing, chord progression, accentuation, voice-leading, the
placement of an adornment (?melisma?), the style of playing, etc. I used
the term polyphonic because it was the closest word I could find to describe
the style of Argentine tango. Of course, not all tango has counterpointed
melody. By the way, not all of J.S. Bach?s and Handel?s compositions are
counterpointed, but when we think about baroque music and the polyphony, we
think about Bach and Handel. Mozart composed amazing fugues, but for
musicians Mozart is a classical composer and not an example of polyphony.
The same is true for Beethoven, Shostakovich, Schnittke, Freidlin, Lerich,
and others. The great romantic Felix Mendlessohn, during the Romantic Era,
composed preludes and fugues inspired by Bach?s music. One of my music
theory teachers said that if you hear music that sounds like Bach, but you
have a feeling it?s not Bach ? genius music but different phrasing, harmony,
adornments, and so on - it?s Mendlessohn. Why? Because it?s not the
Baroque Era anymore. The Baroque period expired with Bach and Handel.
In music history, the style changes when it reaches its climax, the highest
level of the composition and performance. After Bach and Handel, who could
do better? Composers decided, ?we will never get to this level; let?s do
something different.? And after a few decades of transition, the Classical
Period began. By the way, the romantic and simple sounds of sonatas by
Domenico Scarlatti will always be an example of counterpointed Baroque music
while the very complex sonatas by Mozart are an example of Classical, not
counterpointed music.
In my personal vision, the period of Tango music is already gone.
Pugliese, with his orchestral arrangements, Salgan, Piazzolla with his
virtuoso bandoneon and the complexity of his works finished the century of
traditional Tango music. Now it?s in a transitional period. Some may call
it a degradation of Tango music; I prefer think of it as transitional.
Another question that is often raised ? why can?t anyone compose now like
these classic Tango composers (Piazzolla, Pugliese, etc.) did and why can?t
Tango music maintain its integrity and its top-level of composition?
I love to play Piazzolla and to dance to his music. I asked one of the
most important contemporary composers and good friend of mine, Jan Freidlin
to contribute his talent to Tango music. (I was the first guitarist to
perform his guitar compositions). I expected something in Piazzolla?s style.
He composed and dedicated to me his Tango suite. The music is totally
different from traditional TANGO, or Piazzolla?s music, and I think I know
why. Such a high-caliber composer is not interested in imitating any other
composer. He wrote his own vision of the Tango style. I am going to use
this music in a new Tango show that is being produced in Denver. I respect
all efforts to keep this music alive by the creation of new compositions.
I also like and respect the music of Libedinsky, Gotan, and other neo-tango
composers. It?s not so easy to come up with something as interesting and as
genius as Piazzolla, Pugliese, Troilo, Corbian, Mores, etc.
Just one more example of the connection between Baroque music and Tango
music and dancing - Baroque music leaves you some space to improvise and to
add adornments (?melismas,? in music). When we dance to traditional Tango
music we interpret trills, mordent, gruppeto, forshlag, etc. as volcadas,
rock steps, lapices, etc. Alternative and Neo Tangos do not have these
melismas in their structure.
I hope this explanation satisfies the questions asked of me in this and
previous discussions.
Best,
Gregory ?Grisha? Nisnevich
www.gren-music.com
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 05:46:58 -0500
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Consider this: there is nowhere for us to actually learn HOW TO compose the
tango other than transcribing and that's always limited. So even if we want
to write in the style it's very hard. I compose in the old style of
1920s/30s jazz but, only because I have a modern jazz education. Tango info
is ultra hard to come by. More education and you might find more people
creating new material in an old style. Many classical composers still write
in an old style but, embracing innovation is also crucial for survival of
any art form and especially a musical one. I think that putting tango in the
classical genre of thinking is the biggest nail on the coffin. It was a pop
music of its' time and that's what it should be thought of. This will do
more for its' longevity even if as a writer you can apply classical style
thinking to it. Most often classical music is seen as stuffy, stuck up and
'dead'. If tango is put in the same box you can kiss it good bye. My
thoughts on it any way.
-A
> From: Gregory <gren@gren-music.com>
> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:49:25 -0700
> To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Cc: TC Discuss List <tangocolorado@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
>
> Hello All,
>
>
> As a dedicated musician and dancer, I worry about the future of Tango ? the
> music and the dance. This is why I first posted my thoughts on Tango as a
> polyphonic form, comparable to Baroque music.
>
> Polyphonic music is not just counterpointed. It is the whole philosophy
> of structure ,phrasing, chord progression, accentuation, voice-leading, the
> placement of an adornment (?melisma?), the style of playing, etc. I used
> the term polyphonic because it was the closest word I could find to describe
> the style of Argentine tango. Of course, not all tango has counterpointed
> melody. By the way, not all of J.S. Bach?s and Handel?s compositions are
> counterpointed, but when we think about baroque music and the polyphony, we
> think about Bach and Handel. Mozart composed amazing fugues, but for
> musicians Mozart is a classical composer and not an example of polyphony.
> The same is true for Beethoven, Shostakovich, Schnittke, Freidlin, Lerich,
> and others. The great romantic Felix Mendlessohn, during the Romantic Era,
> composed preludes and fugues inspired by Bach?s music. One of my music
> theory teachers said that if you hear music that sounds like Bach, but you
> have a feeling it?s not Bach ? genius music but different phrasing, harmony,
> adornments, and so on - it?s Mendlessohn. Why? Because it?s not the
> Baroque Era anymore. The Baroque period expired with Bach and Handel.
>
> In music history, the style changes when it reaches its climax, the highest
> level of the composition and performance. After Bach and Handel, who could
> do better? Composers decided, ?we will never get to this level; let?s do
> something different.? And after a few decades of transition, the Classical
> Period began. By the way, the romantic and simple sounds of sonatas by
> Domenico Scarlatti will always be an example of counterpointed Baroque music
> while the very complex sonatas by Mozart are an example of Classical, not
> counterpointed music.
>
> In my personal vision, the period of Tango music is already gone.
> Pugliese, with his orchestral arrangements, Salgan, Piazzolla with his
> virtuoso bandoneon and the complexity of his works finished the century of
> traditional Tango music. Now it?s in a transitional period. Some may call
> it a degradation of Tango music; I prefer think of it as transitional.
>
> Another question that is often raised ? why can?t anyone compose now like
> these classic Tango composers (Piazzolla, Pugliese, etc.) did and why can?t
> Tango music maintain its integrity and its top-level of composition?
>
> I love to play Piazzolla and to dance to his music. I asked one of the
> most important contemporary composers and good friend of mine, Jan Freidlin
> to contribute his talent to Tango music. (I was the first guitarist to
> perform his guitar compositions). I expected something in Piazzolla?s style.
> He composed and dedicated to me his Tango suite. The music is totally
> different from traditional TANGO, or Piazzolla?s music, and I think I know
> why. Such a high-caliber composer is not interested in imitating any other
> composer. He wrote his own vision of the Tango style. I am going to use
> this music in a new Tango show that is being produced in Denver. I respect
> all efforts to keep this music alive by the creation of new compositions.
>
> I also like and respect the music of Libedinsky, Gotan, and other neo-tango
> composers. It?s not so easy to come up with something as interesting and as
> genius as Piazzolla, Pugliese, Troilo, Corbian, Mores, etc.
>
> Just one more example of the connection between Baroque music and Tango
> music and dancing - Baroque music leaves you some space to improvise and to
> add adornments (?melismas,? in music). When we dance to traditional Tango
> music we interpret trills, mordent, gruppeto, forshlag, etc. as volcadas,
> rock steps, lapices, etc. Alternative and Neo Tangos do not have these
> melismas in their structure.
>
> I hope this explanation satisfies the questions asked of me in this and
> previous discussions.
>
> Best,
> Gregory ?Grisha? Nisnevich
>
> www.gren-music.com
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:23:23 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
AJ,
You wrote:
" Work with musicians to tell us you want but,
also keep an open mind AND for goodness sakes
stop the elitism, snobbery and judgmental
attitude (not specific tot his e-mail just in
general) it's seen in many circles and ultimately it poisons the environment".
And then in your next post, you wrote:
"Most often classical music is seen as stuffy,
stuck up and 'dead'. If tango is put in the same
box you can kiss it good bye. My thoughts on it any way."
This is some of the best snobbery that I have
ever seen. I have seen it before. I do not see
it as arrogance, just frustration covered up by
snobbery. In my observation, this snobbery
against classical music usually comes from
musicians who had failed as classical musicians
and decided to cover up their embarrassment and
frustration by "moving on to something more innovative".
Nothing personal, just pointing to the contradiction in the posts.
The question that comes up then is:
Is it possible that the same thing is happening
with tango musicians as is happening with some
dancers - those who cannot master the original
form because of its complexity and challenge,
decide to "innovate" it by simplifying it?
Best regards to all,
Nina
At 03:46 AM 2/27/2007, AJ Azure wrote:
>Consider this: there is nowhere for us to actually learn HOW TO compose the
>tango other than transcribing and that's always limited. So even if we want
>to write in the style it's very hard. I compose in the old style of
>1920s/30s jazz but, only because I have a modern jazz education. Tango info
>is ultra hard to come by. More education and you might find more people
>creating new material in an old style. Many classical composers still write
>in an old style but, embracing innovation is also crucial for survival of
>any art form and especially a musical one. I think that putting tango in the
>classical genre of thinking is the biggest nail on the coffin. It was a pop
>music of its' time and that's what it should be thought of. This will do
>more for its' longevity even if as a writer you can apply classical style
>thinking to it. Most often classical music is seen as stuffy, stuck up and
>'dead'. If tango is put in the same box you can kiss it good bye. My
>thoughts on it any way.
>
>-A
>
> > From: Gregory <gren@gren-music.com>
> > Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:49:25 -0700
> > To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> > Cc: TC Discuss List <tangocolorado@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> >
> > As a dedicated musician and dancer, I worry about the future of Tango ? the
> > music and the dance. This is why I first posted my thoughts on Tango as a
> > polyphonic form, comparable to Baroque music.
> >
> > Polyphonic music is not just counterpointed. It is the whole philosophy
> > of structure ,phrasing, chord progression, accentuation, voice-leading, the
> > placement of an adornment (?melisma?), the style of playing, etc. I used
> > the term polyphonic because it was the
> closest word I could find to describe
> > the style of Argentine tango. Of course, not all tango has counterpointed
> > melody. By the way, not all of J.S. Bach?s and Handel?s compositions are
> > counterpointed, but when we think about baroque music and the polyphony, we
> > think about Bach and Handel. Mozart composed amazing fugues, but for
> > musicians Mozart is a classical composer and not an example of polyphony.
> > The same is true for Beethoven, Shostakovich, Schnittke, Freidlin, Lerich,
> > and others. The great romantic Felix Mendlessohn, during the Romantic Era,
> > composed preludes and fugues inspired by Bach?s music. One of my music
> > theory teachers said that if you hear music that sounds like Bach, but you
> > have a feeling it?s not Bach ? genius music
> but different phrasing, harmony,
> > adornments, and so on - it?s Mendlessohn. Why? Because it?s not the
> > Baroque Era anymore. The Baroque period expired with Bach and Handel.
> >
> > In music history, the style changes when it reaches its climax, the highest
> > level of the composition and performance. After Bach and Handel, who could
> > do better? Composers decided, ?we will never get to this level; let?s do
> > something different.? And after a few decades of transition, the Classical
> > Period began. By the way, the romantic and simple sounds of sonatas by
> > Domenico Scarlatti will always be an example
> of counterpointed Baroque music
> > while the very complex sonatas by Mozart are an example of Classical, not
> > counterpointed music.
> >
> > In my personal vision, the period of Tango music is already gone.
> > Pugliese, with his orchestral arrangements, Salgan, Piazzolla with his
> > virtuoso bandoneon and the complexity of his works finished the century of
> > traditional Tango music. Now it?s in a transitional period. Some may call
> > it a degradation of Tango music; I prefer think of it as transitional.
> >
> > Another question that is often raised ? why can?t anyone compose now like
> > these classic Tango composers (Piazzolla, Pugliese, etc.) did and why can?t
> > Tango music maintain its integrity and its top-level of composition?
> >
> > I love to play Piazzolla and to dance to his music. I asked one of the
> > most important contemporary composers and good friend of mine, Jan Freidlin
> > to contribute his talent to Tango music. (I was the first guitarist to
> > perform his guitar compositions). I expected
> something in Piazzolla?s style.
> > He composed and dedicated to me his Tango suite. The music is totally
> > different from traditional TANGO, or Piazzolla?s music, and I think I know
> > why. Such a high-caliber composer is not interested in imitating any other
> > composer. He wrote his own vision of the Tango style. I am going to use
> > this music in a new Tango show that is being produced in Denver. I respect
> > all efforts to keep this music alive by the creation of new compositions.
> >
> > I also like and respect the music of Libedinsky, Gotan, and other neo-tango
> > composers. It?s not so easy to come up with
> something as interesting and as
> > genius as Piazzolla, Pugliese, Troilo, Corbian, Mores, etc.
> >
> > Just one more example of the connection between Baroque music and Tango
> > music and dancing - Baroque music leaves you some space to improvise and to
> > add adornments (?melismas,? in music). When we dance to traditional Tango
> > music we interpret trills, mordent, gruppeto, forshlag, etc. as volcadas,
> > rock steps, lapices, etc. Alternative and Neo Tangos do not have these
> > melismas in their structure.
> >
> > I hope this explanation satisfies the questions asked of me in this and
> > previous discussions.
> >
> > Best,
> > Gregory ?Grisha? Nisnevich
> >
> > www.gren-music.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:43:07 -0800
From: romerob@telusplanet.net
Subject: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Gregory wrote:
>In music history, the style changes when it reaches its climax, the highest
level of the composition and performance. After Bach and Handel, who could
do better? Composers decided, ?we will never get to this level; let?s do
something different.? And after a few decades of transition, the Classical
Period began. By the way, the romantic and simple sounds of sonatas by
Domenico Scarlatti will always be an example of counterpointed Baroque music
while the very complex sonatas by Mozart are an example of Classical, not
counterpointed music<
my 2 cents:
I think that the first wave of change for tango music occurred because of
legal and economic reasons. There was an unsurpassed demand for tango music in
the form of piano scores.
As far as I read and understood on tango music history, the style first
changed when prostitution was legalized in 1910. Many tango composers who
remained anonymous while composing and playing tangos in establishments of ill
reputation came out and rode the gravy train of the commercialization of piano
score industry. The year of 1910 is quite significant because it happened to
be the year when the Cayengue style gained momentum in the neighborhood of La
Boca, in Buenos Aires. Also, it was the year when in the highest production of
piano scores was reached. It was an exciting time to be in the composing, and
commercialization of piano scores. The business was doing so well that
counterfeited piano scores competed with original ones forcing tango composers
to sign their work, and avoid being plagiarized.
Not sure why there is not much said about the significance of law change on
prostitution for tango. It appears to have created the right conditions for
tango music to thrive without the prejudice of having it related to brothels,
pimps, prostitutes, etc.
Bruno
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:29:06 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
Cc: TC Discuss List <tangocolorado@yahoogroups.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
format=flowed
On Feb 27, 2007, at 2:49 AM, Gregory wrote:
> Hello All,
> ...
> Just one more example of the connection between Baroque music and
> Tango
> music and dancing - Baroque music leaves you some space to
> improvise and to
> add adornments (?melismas,? in music). When we dance to
> traditional Tango
> music we interpret trills, mordent, gruppeto, forshlag, etc. as
> volcadas,
> rock steps, lapices, etc. Alternative and Neo Tangos do not have
> these
> melismas in their structure.
> ...Best,
> Gregory ?Grisha? Nisnevich
Grisha's comment hits the point that is really important to me in
this discussion: Space within the composition for the dancers to
participate.
You have a number of different musical elements and qualities that
make tango "Tango" A good dancer uses all of these elements to be
expressive.
(1) TANGO-NESS:
- Crescendo or oomph preceding the strong-beat, the "And-Moment"
You know how you can always spot swing, because it "swings", it has a
specific swing-like syncopation. For me, the single most important
DEFINING quality, the thing that separates tango from a foxtrot or
swing, is this pre-beat, the "And-Moment". The breath of the
bandoneon initiates, before the musician stomps the ground for the
strong "One-Beat". The dancers interpret this by engaging before
accelerating. It calls for a musical interpretation of "Suspension
and Surge".
It sounds sort of like "ha-RUMPPH".
When the leader doesn't move with boldness and drive, when the
follower is all willowy instead of engaged, then tango becomes
ballroom-light instead of masculine-feminine (strong-feminine, not
timid feminine). No chest, no balls, no diva.
(2) COMPLEXITY:
If the "And-moment" characterizes tango, the poly-melodies and poly-
rhythms make tango interesting. Grisha and others have talked about
this already:
- Use of 3-3-2 (or 1xx-1xx-1x) rhythms
- Multiple rhythmic lines,
- Mutliple melody lines,
- Trading melodic or rhythmic elements from one instrument to another
- Little fills or frills
(3) DEPTH and SPACIOUSNESS:
- Space, sparsity, or transparency
The best traditional Tango music is Driving. It is also Rich and
Complex. But it also leaves an empty a space for the dancer. The
dancer is a PART of the orchestra, helping to interpret and shape the
music. Modern musical sensibility calls for the musicians to fill in
every space, as if they are performing a concert rather than
including or even thinking about the dancers.
Piazzolla and even a lot of late Pugliese is spectacular, but drives
the dancers rather than including them. Its heavier bass or melodic
line or swing rhythm pushes a single musical idea rather than
multiple lines. It isn't so spacious and deep, and doesn't leave as
much room to be interpretive.
D'Agostino, the anti-alternative.
In total contrast to late-Pugliese or Alternative, listen to
D'Agostino/Vargas. The music is spacious sometimes even sparse, a
quality that Marilyn Hof (a cellist who dances tango here in Denver)
calls "TRANSPARENCY". Like a crystal you can look down into the music
at all the layers and inclusions. As a Dancer you can connect to the
melody line with one part of your brain while dancing to the little
trills and sub-rhythms.
Most people don't hear D'Agostino until they have been dancing tango
for a while. And, sitting in your living room, D'Agostino doesn't
grab you like when you start to dance at a milonga. D'Agostino isn't
even very interesting at a practice.
ALTERNATIVE, DIFFERENT, NOT BAD:
These listed qualities are what make tango so rich and interesting.
They separate tango from other kinds of music, and even distinguish
dance tango from concert tango.
OF COURSE you can dance tango movements to Alternative. Of course it
can be fun. Of course it is easier if you aren't accustomed to tango.
AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! Passionate movement is fine.
Romance is fine. Prosecco is giggly, even if Barolo curles your toes.
The issue, is that Alternative may be fun and easy but it lacks the
depth, spaciousness and intensity of tango.
What I like about using Alternative is a DJ, is exactly this fun,
easy-access energy. It contrasts with tango, so when I do an
alternative set it is preparing people to return to the depth of
tango. Lhasa to D'Arienzo, Fabrizio de Andre to Di Sarli, Waltzes to
Pugliese.
On the other hand, if you have ever been to an all-alternative tango-
evening. Everybody's movements become sort of fun but not intense.
Energy eventually dissipates, or at least drifts away from feeling
like tango. People get silly and fast, but it is like all desert no
main course.
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:02:45 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Gregory wrote:
>Hello All,
>
>
> As a dedicated musician and dancer, I worry about the future of Tango ? the
>music and the dance. This is why I first posted my thoughts on Tango as a
>polyphonic form, comparable to Baroque music.
>
>
No. They are different creatures entirely, if you are using the term
"polyphonic" in anything approaching its classical meaning. There is
counterpoint in tango and some of it quite striking and effective, but
no strict polyphony and imitation of voices. Piazolla (who studied with
Nadia Boulanger who was my teacher's teacher I should point out) wrote a
few tango-ish fugues which are deemed weird and undanceable by most. As
a musician you can probably figure out ways to dance it though.
> Polyphonic music is not just counterpointed. It is the whole philosophy
>of structure ,phrasing, chord progression, accentuation, voice-leading, the
>placement of an adornment (?melisma?),
>
Melisma is incorrectly used here. It precise meaning is having multiple
notes per syllable of text, e.g. in Gregorian Chant. If there is no
singing there can be no melisma. You are referring to ornamentation
generally.
>the style of playing, etc. I used
>the term polyphonic because it was the closest word I could find to describe
>the style of Argentine tango. Of course, not all tango has counterpointed
>melody. By the way, not all of J.S. Bach?s and Handel?s compositions are
>counterpointed, but when we think about baroque music and the polyphony, we
>think about Bach and Handel. Mozart composed amazing fugues, but for
>musicians Mozart is a classical composer and not an example of polyphony.
>The same is true for Beethoven, Shostakovich, Schnittke, Freidlin, Lerich,
>and others.
>
Again, I just don't understand your use of the word polyphony in this
context. I'm sure you mean something by it though.
>The great romantic Felix Mendlessohn, during the Romantic Era,
>composed preludes and fugues inspired by Bach?s music.
>
He studied with Karl Zelter who was a pupil of Kirnberger who studied
with Bach. Mendelssohn was raised on Bach and is credited with pulling
him back from oblivion. At that time, Bach was largely forgotten about.
>One of my music
>theory teachers said that if you hear music that sounds like Bach, but you
>have a feeling it?s not Bach ? genius music but different phrasing, harmony,
>adornments, and so on - it?s Mendlessohn. Why? Because it?s not the
>Baroque Era anymore. The Baroque period expired with Bach and Handel.
>
>
>
Actually it expired before them. Bach and to a lesser extent Handel were
the last Baroque composers and were thought of as pretty old-fashioned
as compared the newer "gallant" styles of music in vogue starting in the
1730's. This is one reason that JS Bach was so soon forgotten after his
death. His music was found wrapping cheese in markets and propping up
wine casks when Mendelssohn finally kindled some interest in it.
> In music history, the style changes when it reaches its climax, the highest
>level of the composition and performance. After Bach and Handel, who could
>do better? Composers decided, ?we will never get to this level; let?s do
>something different.?
>
No they didn't. Are you making history right now? Are you sure? The
grand Artiste that has become a romantic staple is largely a media
creation of the last 50 years (Prince does a good job of being
insufferable this way.) Back until the late 1700's people were raised in
musical families and trained in guilds as craftsmen. It was their job to
supply music for events secular and sacred in the prevailing taste. This
meant that most composer's music had a very limited geographical
distribution and it was only a few who actually had their works printed
(which meant being laboriously & expensively engraved). It is doubtfull
that more than a handfull of people knew who Bach was in his lifetime.
Most often to get a piece of music by another composer meant you had to
borrow the score and copy it out yourself by hand.
> And after a few decades of transition, the Classical
>Period began. By the way, the romantic and simple sounds of sonatas by
>Domenico Scarlatti will always be an example of counterpointed Baroque music
>while the very complex sonatas by Mozart are an example of Classical, not
>counterpointed music.
>
>
Mozart has excellent counterpoint. I do not understand this statement.
Scarlatti was court composer in Madrid and was tasked with writing
colorful pieces for the queen who was a very able performer. She wanted
harpishord music that sounded like guitars and street songs and that is
what Scarlatti wrote. Before landing that position he was engaged in
writing church music, which he did admirably too. Check out his gorgeous
Stabat Mater. These composers plied their trade much as a silversmith.
Again, the rise in mass economies where you make something then find a
buyer is light-years away from the patron-based system where you were to
supply wares according to the patron's taste.
> In my personal vision, the period of Tango music is already gone.
>
>
True. Tango music from the Golden Age was written in a very specific
cultural envirnoment which is past. We can try to write imitations but
are unlikely to really capture the sound without sounding strained. At
least part of this is because the older musicians took all their tricks
of the trade with them to the grave. Pity it is that nobody cornered
Canaro and the others and had them write a How-To book... Of course,
since these guys were in it as a business they would not be happy about
giving up their secrets either I suspect.
>Pugliese, with his orchestral arrangements, Salgan, Piazzolla with his
>virtuoso bandoneon and the complexity of his works finished the century of
>traditional Tango music. Now it?s in a transitional period. Some may call
>it a degradation of Tango music; I prefer think of it as transitional.
>
>
Just food for thought. When was the last time any of you did a minuet?
What do you mean that's an extinct dance?! Are you sure? Oh sure it was
waning in popularity in the 1780's but those gol' durn commoners sped it
up and varied the steps, which became the waltz. Then a bunch of
completely untutored laborers in Argentina integrated some polka-type
steps and fused it with newer, racier rhythms and made the vals. Music,
like language, changes because people use it. They are unaware that they
are making history but just live their lives. That people are
experimenting with tango is a good thing. It might not be tango in a few
years but as long as we all keep honest about what we are doing, what is
the harm? I personally think that it is just grand that people experiment.
Cheers,
Jeff G
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:16:00 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Jeff Gaynor said:
"Pity it is that nobody cornered
Canaro and the others and had them write a How-To book... Of course,
since these guys were in it as a business they would not be happy about
giving up their secrets either I suspect."
- What secrets do you need, a musician?
Take original records of Canaro himself and listen. There is no more in this
that what one would hear.
"Then a bunch of
completely untutored laborers in Argentina integrated some polka-type
steps and fused it with newer, racier rhythms and made the vals."
- Dear Jeff, don't you find it strange that a "bunch of untutored laborers"
wrote a wonderfully complex classic-type dancing music while nowadays people
with university diplomas obliviously listen to pop?
Thank you, Gregory for the wonderful and inspiring letter, but I feel a
little sorry.
You mentioned mostly Pugliese and Piazzolla as examples, but it is probably
a musician's choice.
That is the roots of modern tango music. Which is ... hm... not... hm...
right.
While we, dancers do not consider neither later Pugliese nor Piazzolla
(after, say 1955 ) suitable for tango dancing. Please, learn the 20
orchestras recorded danceable tango music ( and complex too, sometimes
polyphonic, polyrhythmic ) in the period of 1920-1952. That is tango !
I'd like to bring here one example: A German classical composer, Stefan
Wolpe wrote a "Tango" piece for piano in 1927. Very dark. I like it. Very
Tango. You can find a record. An interpretation of Tango different than
after-Piazzolla's.
Igor
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:39:34 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> - What secrets do you need, a musician?
> Take original records of Canaro himself and listen. There
> is no more in this
> that what one would hear.
I understand musicians like to watch YouTube to find out
how other musicians create some of the sounds. As one
violinist put it: you can hear it, but how do you recreate
it? I suppose that is part of the secrets to musicianship.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:25:43 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I am sure they will find it, as soon as they know what to look for.
Igor.
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> - What secrets do you need, a musician?
> Take original records of Canaro himself and listen. There
> is no more in this
> that what one would hear.
I understand musicians like to watch YouTube to find out
how other musicians create some of the sounds. As one
violinist put it: you can hear it, but how do you recreate
it? I suppose that is part of the secrets to musicianship.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:46:13 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> "Then a bunch of
> completely untutored laborers in Argentina integrated some polka-type
> steps and fused it with newer, racier rhythms and made the vals."
I am sorry, I am no trained historian of music, but this sounds like a
complete canard to me.
Vals (waltz; Walzer) is a European dance, it was not invented in Argentina
by any means. The version heard was that they used to dance normal waltz at
weddings, but they got tired from all that spinning, and started dancing
tango steps to it because it took less energy. I suspect, you were mixing up
that dance invented by laborers with the milonga in your memory.
Astrid
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:15:08 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@milonga.hu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU>
Dear Igor,
Just something that caught my eye - out of context, I do not challenge other things you say:
Polk> - Dear Jeff, don't you find it strange that a "bunch of untutored laborers"
Polk> wrote a wonderfully complex classic-type dancing music while nowadays people
Polk> with university diplomas obliviously listen to pop?
A university diploma (even in Hungary, but in the States...) does not make you sophisticated or even what we call knowledgable. Lately, not even smart. Just having the guts and the ass to sit through university and have passes in your subjects. I do not consider a diploma a measure of person, not to mention a measure of good taste, or good musical sense.
Nevertheless, music written by those "untutored labourers" were not complex, or sometimes not even too interesting. Check out those piano scores. Most simple scores are really primitive. They had power, emotion (like folk music!), but mostly they weren't sophisticated or complex. Some of the classics were actually written to score by orchestra leaders who had excellent training or/and experience (eg. La cumparsita, while originally written my Rodriguez, was written into score by Firpo). The orchestra arrangers/leaders who MADE these songs really complex and sophisticated, the type of tango you recognize and know today (and all the things we are talking about), were mostly well-tutored, and even more, people extremely experienced in this genre - even if from humble origins.
My opinion - of course. Correct me if I am wrong.
Cheers,
Aron
Budapest, Hungary
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:55:20 -0500
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Nina,
No contradiction at all. You're reading into my post incorrectly. I don't
see classical that way. As a film composer I often work in the medium.
Classical music is seen as stuffy because, of the elitist snobs who ruin it
for people rather than the people who choose to leave it. They leave it not
because they can't cut it but, because, they are alienated from it.
I left it because, you just can't make a decent living playing it. I play
all styles of music fairly well so it's not an inferiority issue.
In most music circles there is always a trend of downing some other style as
not being as good or as authentic, or "that's not music", etc. that's what
I've been seeing on this list and that s what kills things. As far as
innovation see jazz fusion as an example. Consider nuevo tango music as a
fusion style of old and new. Nothing wrong with a fusion style. It bringa
about some fresh material and yet makes the new artists examine the old
music.
_A.
> From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:23:23 -0700
> To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
>
> AJ,
>
> You wrote:
>
> " Work with musicians to tell us you want but,
> also keep an open mind AND for goodness sakes
> stop the elitism, snobbery and judgmental
> attitude (not specific tot his e-mail just in
> general) it's seen in many circles and ultimately it poisons the environment".
>
> And then in your next post, you wrote:
>
> "Most often classical music is seen as stuffy,
> stuck up and 'dead'. If tango is put in the same
> box you can kiss it good bye. My thoughts on it any way."
>
> This is some of the best snobbery that I have
> ever seen. I have seen it before. I do not see
> it as arrogance, just frustration covered up by
> snobbery. In my observation, this snobbery
> against classical music usually comes from
> musicians who had failed as classical musicians
> and decided to cover up their embarrassment and
> frustration by "moving on to something more innovative".
>
> Nothing personal, just pointing to the contradiction in the posts.
>
> The question that comes up then is:
>
> Is it possible that the same thing is happening
> with tango musicians as is happening with some
> dancers - those who cannot master the original
> form because of its complexity and challenge,
> decide to "innovate" it by simplifying it?
>
> Best regards to all,
>
> Nina
>
>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:02:53 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: TANGO-L@MIT.EDU
Hi, AJ and everyone,
I see your point. Yes, perhaps I misunderstood. Possibly because
the framing is not the same in print as in spoken words.
One thing that came to my mind is that perhaps we really need new,
accurate words to describe various dances. If we agree that dancing
tango to non-tango music is NOT Argentine tango, then it really does
need a name of its own. The reason is that if something remarkable
happens in that form of dancing, then its own genre will be properly
credited. As it stands now, this form of dancing really does invade
the space of Argentine tango and covers itself up with its already
established respect.
This most certainly would include a new name for electronic tango.
which, essentially is not tango. If there is a proper name, then in
any discussion that involves a traditional tango it would be clear
that we should not be comparing apples and oranges. But as long as
this music tries to call itself Argentine tango, it will never gain
the respect that it might deserve in its own right because it will
always be compared with the traditional tangos and will always look
pale in comparison. If something is called a tango, then the
expectation is often much higher of that music than what electronic
ones deliver. In this light, if there was something new and
interesting created in the electronic form, then it would not be fair
if it does not get a proper credit because it was incorrectly
compared to another genre.
I think that these discussions are very good. They might help each
effort in music and dance to earn its own name and its own place.
So maybe someone can come up with a really good name for these, other
than the tongue-in-cheek that already have been presented? Any
suggestions? What realistically can you call a dance that has AT
steps but is danced to some other music? What can you call music
based on tango that is electronic?
Best regards to all,
Nina
At 10:55 PM 2/27/2007, you wrote:
>Nina,
>No contradiction at all. You're reading into my post incorrectly. I don't
>see classical that way. As a film composer I often work in the medium.
>Classical music is seen as stuffy because, of the elitist snobs who ruin it
>for people rather than the people who choose to leave it. They leave it not
>because they can't cut it but, because, they are alienated from it.
>I left it because, you just can't make a decent living playing it. I play
>all styles of music fairly well so it's not an inferiority issue.
>
>In most music circles there is always a trend of downing some other style as
>not being as good or as authentic, or "that's not music", etc. that's what
>I've been seeing on this list and that s what kills things. As far as
>innovation see jazz fusion as an example. Consider nuevo tango music as a
>fusion style of old and new. Nothing wrong with a fusion style. It bringa
>about some fresh material and yet makes the new artists examine the old
>music.
>
>_A.
>
> > From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
> > Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:23:23 -0700
> > To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
> >
> > AJ,
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > " Work with musicians to tell us you want but,
> > also keep an open mind AND for goodness sakes
> > stop the elitism, snobbery and judgmental
> > attitude (not specific tot his e-mail just in
> > general) it's seen in many circles and ultimately it poisons the
> environment".
> >
> > And then in your next post, you wrote:
> >
> > "Most often classical music is seen as stuffy,
> > stuck up and 'dead'. If tango is put in the same
> > box you can kiss it good bye. My thoughts on it any way."
> >
> > This is some of the best snobbery that I have
> > ever seen. I have seen it before. I do not see
> > it as arrogance, just frustration covered up by
> > snobbery. In my observation, this snobbery
> > against classical music usually comes from
> > musicians who had failed as classical musicians
> > and decided to cover up their embarrassment and
> > frustration by "moving on to something more innovative".
> >
> > Nothing personal, just pointing to the contradiction in the posts.
> >
> > The question that comes up then is:
> >
> > Is it possible that the same thing is happening
> > with tango musicians as is happening with some
> > dancers - those who cannot master the original
> > form because of its complexity and challenge,
> > decide to "innovate" it by simplifying it?
> >
> > Best regards to all,
> >
> > Nina
> >
> >
>
>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:43 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
"Gregory" <gren@gren-music.com> wrote:
> Gotan, Narcotango, etc. ... is primitive melody. there is no soul in
> this kind of music, which is made only for commercial purpose.
and then a few days later:
> I also like and respect the music of Libedinsky, Gotan, and other
> neo-tango composers.
There seems to be a slight contradiction here... ;)
Gregory, care to clarify?
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
*From:* "Gregory" <gren@gren-music.com>
*To:* <tango-l@mit.edu>
*CC:* TC Discuss List <tangocolorado@yahoogroups.com>
*Date:* Tue, 27 Feb 2007 02:49:25 -0700
Hello All,
As a dedicated musician and dancer, I worry about the future of Tango ? the
music and the dance. This is why I first posted my thoughts on Tango as a
polyphonic form, comparable to Baroque music.
Polyphonic music is not just counterpointed. It is the whole philosophy
of structure ,phrasing, chord progression, accentuation, voice-leading, the
placement of an adornment (?melisma?), the style of playing, etc. I used
the term polyphonic because it was the closest word I could find to describe
the style of Argentine tango. Of course, not all tango has counterpointed
melody. By the way, not all of J.S. Bach?s and Handel?s compositions are
counterpointed, but when we think about baroque music and the polyphony, we
think about Bach and Handel. Mozart composed amazing fugues, but for
musicians Mozart is a classical composer and not an example of polyphony.
The same is true for Beethoven, Shostakovich, Schnittke, Freidlin, Lerich,
and others. The great romantic Felix Mendlessohn, during the Romantic Era,
composed preludes and fugues inspired by Bach?s music. One of my music
theory teachers said that if you hear music that sounds like Bach, but you
have a feeling it?s not Bach ? genius music but different phrasing, harmony,
adornments, and so on - it?s Mendlessohn. Why? Because it?s not the
Baroque Era anymore. The Baroque period expired with Bach and Handel.
In music history, the style changes when it reaches its climax, the highest
level of the composition and performance. After Bach and Handel, who could
do better? Composers decided, ?we will never get to this level; let?s do
something different.? And after a few decades of transition, the Classical
Period began. By the way, the romantic and simple sounds of sonatas by
Domenico Scarlatti will always be an example of counterpointed Baroque music
while the very complex sonatas by Mozart are an example of Classical, not
counterpointed music.
In my personal vision, the period of Tango music is already gone.
Pugliese, with his orchestral arrangements, Salgan, Piazzolla with his
virtuoso bandoneon and the complexity of his works finished the century of
traditional Tango music. Now it?s in a transitional period. Some may call
it a degradation of Tango music; I prefer think of it as transitional.
Another question that is often raised ? why can?t anyone compose now like
these classic Tango composers (Piazzolla, Pugliese, etc.) did and why can?t
Tango music maintain its integrity and its top-level of composition?
I love to play Piazzolla and to dance to his music. I asked one of the
most important contemporary composers and good friend of mine, Jan Freidlin
to contribute his talent to Tango music. (I was the first guitarist to
perform his guitar compositions). I expected something in Piazzolla?s style.
He composed and dedicated to me his Tango suite. The music is totally
different from traditional TANGO, or Piazzolla?s music, and I think I know
why. Such a high-caliber composer is not interested in imitating any other
composer. He wrote his own vision of the Tango style. I am going to use
this music in a new Tango show that is being produced in Denver. I respect
all efforts to keep this music alive by the creation of new compositions.
I also like and respect the music of Libedinsky, Gotan, and other neo-tango
composers. It?s not so easy to come up with something as interesting and as
genius as Piazzolla, Pugliese, Troilo, Corbian, Mores, etc.
Just one more example of the connection between Baroque music and Tango
music and dancing - Baroque music leaves you some space to improvise and to
add adornments (?melismas,? in music). When we dance to traditional Tango
music we interpret trills, mordent, gruppeto, forshlag, etc. as volcadas,
rock steps, lapices, etc. Alternative and Neo Tangos do not have these
melismas in their structure.
I hope this explanation satisfies the questions asked of me in this and
previous discussions.
Best,
Gregory ?Grisha? Nisnevich
www.gren-music.com
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:35:19 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Transition of Tango Music
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
astrid wrote:
>>"Then a bunch of
>>completely untutored laborers in Argentina integrated some polka-type
>>steps and fused it with newer, racier rhythms and made the vals."
>>
>>
>
>I am sorry, I am no trained historian of music, but this sounds like a
>complete canard to me.
>
>
Nope, this was an attempt at satire, but one with a grain of truth to
it. My point is that people are trying to preserve tango in a way that
is very far from how it came into existence. It was a popular dance and
was shunned largely by the upper classes for its directness until it
became popular abroad. It is this visceral, passionate feel that is so
endearing. Think of it. A lot of people now are arguing against
experimentation on strictly conservative grounds. My quip was to point
out that such an approach would have probably prevented tango itself.
So for me the larger philosophical question is do you try and preserve
this character vs. the form of the dance? I'm not sure I have an answer
but we should try to enjoy ourselves immensely while we figure it out.
Sorry if my humor is a bit too abstruse. It's the Mathematician in me.
Now consider a spherical milonguero...
Cheers,
Jeff G
