5469 A true tango
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:47:57 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
This is a true tango:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLqCth7DrY
Juan Carlos Copes and Cecilia Narova
How anyone could doubt !?
Igor Polk
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 19:55:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] A true tango - Nieves
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<61524.69.159.127.20.1200704104.squirrel@webmail2.pair.com>
Yes, a true lovely choreographed.
Now, the back-story on what it is missing:
Carlos Saura begged Maria Nieves to appear in this film, for he meant it
as a tribute to Copes and Nieves.
At the time, it was too soon after Juan dumped her to dance with his
daughter. She would have none of helping him out again - if I may put it
that way. (They later did re-unite for a tour, thank goodness).
The woman who danced in the film is obviously lovely. She copied Nieves'
part so well.
But anyone who saw Nieves dance this signature number of theirs is not
being picky by saying no one else is quite as good in this piece. It was
hers for 40 years. The last few years, she kept Juan from forgetting; from
spreading his legs too far as he does here, etc. (She matched him
perfectly in size and they were intimate since 1952 or so).
No one could STAND on the stage and look so perfect - let alone walk - as
Maria does. There are many reasons why she is a legend. None of it b.s. or
personal opinion. Just look at how history is treating her.
I hope she will forgive me for hinting at personal knowledge. Juan, too.
How I love them. The first tango I ever saw was this Cumparsita by them as
I sat in the third row in the theatre. Over the next 5 months, I watched
them do it 42 times. ALWAYS she was perfect.
She became my sister-in-law for a few years and took me close and gave me
more than she will ever know.
I think she does that to everyone in her way. But, if you know her
personally, you get touched by the gods in a special way, surely.
Mostly, she showed her perfect stage and public posture and that is what
we have all seen.
Privately, she showed her imperfect posture and you felt that was perfect,
too; for airs and pretenses she never bothered with.
Three sisters were the only women Copes ever danced with before his lovely
daughter Johanna grew up and became his partner.
The two younger sisters, Maria and Cristina, will tell you their older
sister Niata was the best. She didn't go professional; but the other two
became part of the legend.
When Nieves and Copes divorced in the early 60's, Cristina was Juan's
partner for two years. Then Maria came back and Cristina resumed her
preferred role in the company (Copes Tango Revue).
But, you should see HER dance. Maria a few years younger.
These people of whom I speak introduced me to tango and I know it changed
my life in part because THEY were tango for me. I feel the same swoon when
I recall their smile and the way they move as I do when I hear a
bandoneon.
Well - just to say:
If you want to see that Cumparsita and call it True Tango, you want to
find a version of Copes and Nieves. Then you can use all superlatives.
And I would add that I wish people outside of professional circles had
some awareness of Cristina (professional name Cristina Rey). She never
wanted the spotlight. But she deserved it every bit as much as Maria.
She joined the Copes company when she was 14 and did the hard work of
training all the new people who came in for the next 30 years. I met many
of them over the years. Gavito's first partner as a professional was
Cristina, for instance.
Perhaps her's is one of the greatest tango dancer stories never told.
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:36:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
One of my favorite dances is the scene from the movie,
Tango, where he dances with his real life daughter in
the salon. Is that online, anywhere?
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> This is a true tango:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLqCth7DrY
> Juan Carlos Copes and Cecilia Narova
>
> How anyone could doubt !?
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
>
>
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:59:53 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <antonst@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
<00052DAF04B2EA4B925351AA0DE08CB70EF3FC@stancosbs1.stanco.local>
I would have no doubt if you had labeled it "true Show Tango".
Anton
This is a true tango: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLqCth7DrY
Juan Carlos Copes and Cecilia Narova
How anyone could doubt !?
Igor Polk
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:45:50 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango - Nieves
To: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Carlos Saura begged Maria Nieves to appear in this film, for he meant it
> as a tribute to Copes and Nieves.
>
Wow, I had no idea that Narova was replacing Nieves in this film ! Like this
it looks like, Copes is just sort of in there accidentally, teaching the
other actors. So, are the other characters also meant to mean somebody who
really exists?
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:48:26 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: "Tango For Her" <tangopeer@yahoo.com>, "Igor Polk"
<ipolk@virtuar.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> One of my favorite dances is the scene from the movie,
> Tango, where he dances with his real life daughter in
> the salon. Is that online, anywhere?
>
I believe, I have seen it on youtube. But I did not know this was his
daughter.
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:54:05 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: "Tango For Her" <tangopeer@yahoo.com>, "Igor Polk"
<ipolk@virtuar.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
tango for her:
> One of my favorite dances is the scene from the movie,
> Tango, where he dances with his real life daughter in
> the salon. Is that online, anywhere?
>
I think, you mean this one. It is not his daughter, it's Yacono.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-7ksPeNsz8&feature=related
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:06:31 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Do you really think this is tango? I think y?u are just challenging us.
Because I think this is a ballet on tango theme, nothing more. The feature
that makes it tango is not there.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 1:47 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] A true tango
> This is a true tango:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpLqCth7DrY
> Juan Carlos Copes and Cecilia Narova
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 08:32:26 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Yes, surely not his daughter.
When I first saw this movie, I thought this was perfect tango.
Continued to think so in the next couple of years as I watched it some more
times.
Then. for some years, I did not watch it.
And, an year ago, I saw this same scene - no, it is not tango at all - it is
ballet.
About his daughter, Johana Copes, I've seen her dance real tango, but not
him (the father).
----- Original Message ----- >
I think, you mean this one. It is not his daughter, it's Yacono.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-7ksPeNsz8&feature=related
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 02:19:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] A True tango - Copes
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Context.
Copes is known for being the first person to choreograph tango for
professional dancers on stage.
!
You could say he invented the nuevo tango of his time (early 50's). He
gave Piazzolla (and so many other -performers and theatrical artists) jobs
and a place. (https://ToTANGO.net/copes.html)
This Cumparsita is his signature piece.
But it was created with his partner of 4 decades, Maria Nieves.
Like what he does or not personally in the context of the times; but no
one has achieved what he did. Neither Maria. They were the hub of the
tango industry. His ideas and image portrayals are now thought of as the
pure stuff of Argentine tango on stage. We are all his children. Their's.
True tango is to me the social dance. He never claimed to be doing that.
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:00:25 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
What a strange world this is - and what a strange list. We already have Chris UK [who???] telling
us that Gustavo Naviera is useless. Now we have Krasimir Stoyanov - does anyone even know who
he is or how he can dance - telling us that a legendary figure such as Juan Carlos Copes doesn't
dance Tango. Why do so many have so little respect for those who have achieved so much. What
is it about Tango that makes people this way? It doesn't seem to happen in the other arts. Certainly
not in Ballroom dancing where former champions are still revered, no matter how much styles may
change.
Keith, HK
On Sab Ene 19 14:32 , "Krasimir Stoyanov" sent:
>Yes, surely not his daughter.
>When I first saw this movie, I thought this was perfect tango.
>Continued to think so in the next couple of years as I watched it some more
>times.
>Then. for some years, I did not watch it.
>And, an year ago, I saw this same scene - no, it is not tango at all - it is
>ballet.
>
>About his daughter, Johana Copes, I've seen her dance real tango, but not
>him (the father).
>
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:27:22 +0200
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I do not comment what are the "historic" achievements of someone. I simply
comment if his dancing has "the feature", that makes it true tango. I do not
pay attention to the world known names, I believe what I see.
Don't characterize me as someone, who shows disrespect to all known tango
figures. I only say, that some of them are popular only because the
population is not capable to see they do not dance tango. Because they
imitate it well enough.
And how I dance is irrelevant here. I may well be a disabled person, but
with eye to see.
I have shown you examples of tango people I respect - they are many - I
don't want to list them here - just look at the videolinks collection I
shared here. I respect the excellent dancers in the clips, love to watch
them dancing, try to improve myself by their example - so, please, don't
offense me by saying I am disrespectful.
----- Original Message -----
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 07:49:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
> What a strange world this is - and what a strange
> list. We already have Chris UK [who???] telling
> us that Gustavo Naviera is useless. Now we have
> Krasimir Stoyanov - does anyone even know who
> he is or how he can dance - telling us that a
> legendary figure such as Juan Carlos Copes doesn't
> dance Tango. Why do so many have so little respect
> for those who have achieved so much. What
> is it about Tango that makes people this way? It
> doesn't seem to happen in the other arts. Certainly
> not in Ballroom dancing where former champions are
> still revered, no matter how much styles may
> change.
>
I don't know a lot of ballroom and I only know what I
know about tango. Given that, this is my answer to
your question:
In ballroom, the movements, until you become very
good, are just patterns. There are things open to
interpretation. But, as a basis, it is a whole bunch
of patterns. That's where the ballroom teachers make
their money. And, that's where *some* tango teachers
make their money.
Tango, once you get past, say the
beginner-intermediate stage, is improvised to a large
extent. For those of us who are lucky enough to break
free from patterns, it is more so.
With an improvised dance, we each get out of it what
we get out of it. We are all different.
So, here we are, all different. A small segment of
the population is head-strong. Is it possible that
strong-headed people end up on blogs and lists like
this?
One final piece to the puzzle ... and I will use me as
an example. I excelled at soft tango free from
patterns. I am told that I make my follower feel
balanced, soft, relaxed, secure ... sometimes, we want
to melt! When I see a leader with his left foot
jetting out to the left, I know what that does to the
follower's comfort level. So, that is what I teach
about and write about.
So, when I write, I have to be careful not to discount
other people's reasoning. We all excelled at
different aspects of this dance and we are all
head-strong. Sometimes, I fail to remain open minded.
Many, many times, others fail to remain open minded
to the point that they want to pick on other people.
I am sorry for the few times that I have strayed.
There are people out there who MUST be right, no
matter what and some of us end up fighting with them
just because they want to fight.
True tango? Give me a break! There are many
different "true tangos"! Why? Because it is open to
interpretation! So, if we can all say what we think
is true tango AND not belittle others, we will learn
IN PEACE!
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:52 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> Tango, once you get past, say the beginner-intermediate stage, is
> improvised
Tango, once you are doing it at all, is improvised.
You're a beginner only once you've begun.
--
Chris
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 11:29:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I want to clarify that my last post was not directed
at Keith. I was just answering his rhetorical
question. :o\
And, again, it isn't directed at anyone. I was just
observing that tango is improvised and, therefore, we
all get different things out of it AND places like
blogs and lists are where you find people who are
opinionated. So, you get what you get and it would be
nice if people remember that we're all different and
noone HAS TO BE right.
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 12:56:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
That scene in the salon in the movie, "Tango", ... are
you saying it is or is not his daughter? I had heard
that it is his daughter.
And, whether you think it is ballet (huh?) or not, it
is very beatiful and inspires me. His focus is on
allowing her to feel beauty in the dance. I get
chills!
Again, does anyone know if it is online?
--- Krasimir Stoyanov <krasimir@krasimir.com> wrote:
> Yes, surely not his daughter.
> When I first saw this movie, I thought this was
> perfect tango.
> Continued to think so in the next couple of years as
> I watched it some more
> times.
> Then. for some years, I did not watch it.
> And, an year ago, I saw this same scene - no, it is
> not tango at all - it is
> ballet.
>
> About his daughter, Johana Copes, I've seen her
> dance real tango, but not
> him (the father).
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- >
> I think, you mean this one. It is not his daughter,
> it's Yacono.
> >
>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-7ksPeNsz8&feature=related
>
>
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:35:16 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A True tango - Copes
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA025664FF84@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Carlos Saura is a great *Spanish* director and I think that comes across pretty clearly in his movie about tango i.e. it is terrible. Just compare it to his earlier movie about flamenco (Carmen) which is superior in every way (the movie that is, not necessarily the dance). Admittedly I may be a little biased given my Spanish blood, but it seems to me that in the first movie he managed to capture the essence and soul of flamenco and nowhere in the Tango movie does he come anywhere near to that. You get a much better picture of tango from something like 'Tango Baile Nuestro' if you can ignore the weird bits in that documentary. Actually you will find Copes in that film as well. Have a look at him teaching beginners in the documentary and you can draw your own conclusions about his approach to teaching, at least. It is strictly tango by the numbers. Maybe this sort of approach is ok for teaching Argentinians who already have grown up with tango, but as a basis for teaching for!
eigners I don't think a worse system is yet to be devised. Yes, Copes is a legend of the dance, but things have moved on a lot from his day both in terms of teaching and performance. I think (without mentioning Copes specifically) that was Naveira's main point in his article previously linked by Janis. Tango today is stronger than it has ever been and there is no need to be too deferential to the past.
Victor Bennetts
>Copes is known for being the first person to choreograph tango for
>professional dancers on stage.
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Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:48:59 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A True tango - Copes
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
So, I suppose on that basis, we can say Jesse Owens wasn't really that good because nowadays he wouldn't even qualify for
the Olympics, let alone win 4 gold medals. No need to be too deferential? How soon people forget.
Keith, HK
On Sun Jan 20 9:35 , Victor Bennetts sent:
Yes, Copes is a legend of the dance, but things have moved on a lot from his day both in terms of teaching and performance. I think (without mentioning Copes specifically) that was Naveira's main point in his article previously linked by Janis. Tango today is stronger than it has ever been and there is no need to be too deferential to the past.
>
>Victor Bennetts
>
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 00:29:45 +0900
From: "Astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: "Tango For Her" <tangopeer@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> That scene in the salon in the movie, "Tango", ... are
> you saying it is or is not his daughter? I had heard
> that it is his daughter.
>
> Again, does anyone know if it is online?
I posted this already, did you miss this?
again:
tango for her:
> One of my favorite dances is the scene from the movie,
> Tango, where he dances with his real life daughter in
> the salon. Is that online, anywhere?
>
I think, you mean this one. It is not his daughter, it's Yacono.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-7ksPeNsz8&feature=related
>
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:39:52 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A True tango - Copes
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643D21@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
I don't have anything bad to say about Copes as a father of the modern tango, just teachers (and there are plenty of them) who still use his eight step basic to teach. Typically they don't tell students anything about connection, navigation or embrace, even though in many cases they know better, they just keep moving into more complex sequences in subsequent lessons. In many cases they also do not correct basic errors such as poor posture. Even if these things are mentioned they are soon forgotten as they are irrelevant to the learning process that is going on in lessons structured in this way. When you dance with someone from one of these teachers you think - wow - how can someone know so many steps and not be able to lead/follow a single one? Today there are better ways to teach tango and I would definitely call that progress.
Victor Bennetts
>So, I suppose on that basis, we can say Jesse Owens wasn't really that good because >nowadays he wouldn't even qualify for
>the Olympics, let alone win 4 gold medals. No need to be too deferential? How soon >people forget.
>Keith, HK
> On Sun Jan 20 9:35 , Victor Bennetts sent:
>>Yes, Copes is a legend of the dance, but things have moved on a lot from his day both >>in terms of teaching and performance. I think (without mentioning Copes specifically) >>that was Naveira's main point in his article previously linked by Janis. Tango today >>is stronger than it has ever been and there is no need to be too deferential to the >>past.
>
>>Victor Bennetts
>
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Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:39:34 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A true tango
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA025664FF92@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
I am not sure who posted Ney Melo & Jennifer Bratt originally, but thank you so much, they are great. I especially like their Poema and the lovely americanas:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pgbt0oD-MnA&feature=related
With all the talk about Copes recently I also had a look at youtube for Maria Nieves and found this interesting set of birthday dances including Javier Rodriguez and Gavito. Its nice to watch people just dancing for fun for a change:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzwrynxHS8Q
One gap in the links I have seen so far (but now there are so many links I can not claim to have looked at every one) in my opinion is that I didn't see any great nuevo. I have a particular style of dancing in mind which I saw in BsAs last year at Viruta, Malcolm and I believe you can also see at PracticaX. The guys I saw had a particular look of sinuous power and did a whole lot of really inventive things in the Arce sort of style, but less polished and more raw and unmistakeably their own inventions. Its not Chicho, Naveira et al, those guys are also just too smooth and polished (and to be blunt too old!). Now when I think of nuevo I think of this sort of playfulness and freedom to invent. But I think you need to master the old dance first so it is still a ways off for me :-). I couldn't find any great examples of this, but found an ok example here to give you an idea of what I mean. If anyone has a better example please post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAi--Zqa99Y
Victor Bennetts
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