Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:46:31 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
Dear All, Good dancers can dance in the real world.
They do not need protection. Calling what you do
milongero is a joke, both here in the USA and in
Argentina. It is limited tourist tango at best. Derik
--- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <catmum@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
> >
> As if we needed it, Derik, proof that you are an
idiot.
>
> >
> > Total conformity. A wonderful evening without
danger.
> > Is this what we all should be doing? Derik
> It was indeed, a fantastic festival.
> C
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:26:38 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
-1 Flamebait
Folks, I know this is belabouring the obvious, but here goes:
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!
or, perhaps more appropriately,
Don't mud-wrestle with pigs - you get dirty, and the pigs *like* it.
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Derik Rawson wrote:
> Dear All, Good dancers can dance in the real world.
> They do not need protection. Calling what you do
> milongero is a joke, both here in the USA and in
> Argentina. It is limited tourist tango at best. Derik
> --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <catmum@COMCAST.NET> wrote:
>
>>As if we needed it, Derik, proof that you are an
>
> idiot.
>
>>>Total conformity. A wonderful evening without
>
> danger.
>
>>>Is this what we all should be doing? Derik
>>
>>It was indeed, a fantastic festival.
>>C
>>
>>
>
>
>>Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
>
> Tango-A rather than to
>
>>Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
>
> subscribe to Tango-A,
>
>>send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
>
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>
>
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:08:32 -0600
From: Ron Weigel <tango.society@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
On 9/7/05, Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear All, Good dancers can dance in the real world.
> They do not need protection. Calling what you do
> milongero is a joke, both here in the USA and in
> Argentina. It is limited tourist tango at best. Derik
Dear Derik,
I'm sorry you don't enjoy milonguero style tango and that this style
is so disturbing to you. Those of us who dance it really enjoy it. The
close connection with your partner is what makes tango unique,
different from other dances. Approach it with an open mind. You might
like it.
The real tourist tango is the aberration of tango fantasia called
'salon style tango' that is danced socially in the US. Only the
tourists try to dance that way at the milongas in Buenos Aires. Then
the porten~os need protection.
Ron
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:20:16 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
If is fascinating!!! With all these opinions.
Check Susan Tango Pial documentary movie, and you will get the first hand
experience how tango is danced in Buenos Aires, and who invented what...
It is here, right here... at your fingertips, a great professional film:
I hope you will never argue after watching the video what tango is better.
https://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/pial/tango_pial.htm
Igor Polk
Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:29:09 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
Dear Ron:
I dance close embrace (Argentine) much of the time,
BUT NOT ALL THE TIME. "All the time close embrace" is
just a tourist tango, because it is so easy to do.
Open embrace mixed with close embrace is much more
difficult. It requires many more years of dancing
experience to master, which is why the Argentines are
really good at it, and we are not. They start dancing
at 6 years old. A twenty year old has danced 14
years.
Good dancers, true milongeros, do not need protection
on the dance floor. The only dancers that need
protection on the dance floor are the "close embrace
all the time people", the tourists, who are mostly
standing around semi-motionless, like wooden posts,
all over the dance floor, moving at a snail's pace,
which creates an obstacle course for all the faster
moving experienced dancers who have to navigate around
them. Every one respects the line of dance, but the
tourist are in the slow lane..
From what we have already know, about 80 percent of
the Argentines dance open embrace mixed with close
embrace. The remaining 20 percent dance different
forms of tourist tango, or specific older styles of
tango. In the rest of the world, most people dance
tango in the same percentages, except for the USA.
Stage tango is not tourist tango, because it is way
too difficult for a tourist to do. It is danced by
professionals on stage and is sometimes modified for
social dancing by true milongeros who can do just
about anything on the dance floor without limits.
Stage tango is very interesting. I would not pay
money to see wooden posts dance on stage, would you?
Please do not tell me that I have not danced your
dance, because I have. Most people in the world do
not dance it, because it is way too limited. For me
it is like hamburger. I prefer steak.
PS- I understand that you love close embrace, and
that is wonderful. I am all for that. I do think,
however, that expanding your dance world, by learning
other forms of the tango as well, might be even more
interesting for you. The problem of course is that it
takes years and years of dancing at milongas (not in
teacher's studios) to master all the various forms of
tango. There is no quick fix. Tango is wonderful and
it is endless. That is what makes it great. Best of
luck.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Ron Weigel <tango.society@GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> On 9/7/05, Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Dear All, Good dancers can dance in the real
> world.
> > They do not need protection. Calling what you do
> > milongero is a joke, both here in the USA and in
> > Argentina. It is limited tourist tango at best.
> Derik
>
> Dear Derik,
>
> I'm sorry you don't enjoy milonguero style tango and
> that this style
> is so disturbing to you. Those of us who dance it
> really enjoy it. The
> close connection with your partner is what makes
> tango unique,
> different from other dances. Approach it with an
> open mind. You might
> like it.
>
> The real tourist tango is the aberration of tango
> fantasia called
> 'salon style tango' that is danced socially in the
> US. Only the
> tourists try to dance that way at the milongas in
> Buenos Aires. Then
> the porten~os need protection.
>
> Ron
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:23:34 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
Derik Rawson wrote:
> Dear Ron:
>
> I dance close embrace (Argentine) much of the time,
> BUT NOT ALL THE TIME. "All the time close embrace" is
> just a tourist tango, because it is so easy to do.
But some milongas are so crowded they pretty much
force close embrace all the time, at least unless you're
desperate to live dangerously and make enemies, so I wouldn't
necessarily call "close embrace all the time" a tourist tango...
Yet there's a point.
The *best* tangos are those where the connection effortlessly
glides from being close to being less close, following the mood,
the music, the partner's past ingestion of garlic, and the steps
you're performing (and the speed at which you're performing them).
That's *hard*, though. And a lot of followers don't actually
*expect* you to lead invites to change the embrace -- some
positively *loathe* that as it makes them feel insecure (or
because they think a particular embrace or style is the
Only Pinnacle of True Tango and you're just being a
Despicable Heretic).
A leader who hasn't experienced an arm glide from behind his neck
to his arm before a giro and the caress when the arm goes back
certainly is missing an experience...
A continuous close embrace on a long and lyrical Caló or even
di Sarli tanda on an empty dance floor certainly does indeed
make me wonder at times (but if it floats their boat,...).
--
Alexis Cousein Solutions Architect
Silicon Graphics/SGI
--
If I can see further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:35:58 -0600
From: Ron Weigel <tango.society@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
On 9/12/05, Alexis Cousein <al@brussels.sgi.com> wrote:
> Derik Rawson wrote:
>
> > Dear Ron:
> >
> > I dance close embrace (Argentine) much of the time,
> > BUT NOT ALL THE TIME. "All the time close embrace" is
> > just a tourist tango, because it is so easy to do.
>
> But some milongas are so crowded they pretty much
> force close embrace all the time, at least unless you're
> desperate to live dangerously and make enemies, so I wouldn't
> necessarily call "close embrace all the time" a tourist tango...
>
> Yet there's a point.
>
> The *best* tangos are those where the connection effortlessly
> glides from being close to being less close, following the mood,
> the music, the partner's past ingestion of garlic, and the steps
> you're performing (and the speed at which you're performing them).
Close embrace is certainly adaptive for dancing on crowded floors and
many have said it evolved for that purpose, although I suspect from
canyengue interpretations I've seen that it was there near the
beginning, even if floors were not crowded. However, once one has
adpated to close embrace, the reason for dancing that way is more
inward and partner-directed than only an adaptation to floor
conditions. I and many others who dance tango in close embrace prefer
it because of the serenity that is achieved in a stable comfortable
close connection. I don't believe the 'tango trance' can be achieved
in a shifting embrace. In my opinion, opening the embrace breaks that
serenity.
Different people have different reasons for dancing tango and derive
different rewards from it, so this is not saying that one embrace is
better than another. This is just to say why many of us prefer to keep
the embrace closed throughout the dance.
Ron
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:32:39 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
Dear Alexis:
I am with you. Variety is the spice of life. The
Argentines understand this concept. Why don't the
dancers in the US understand this concept? Sliding
from close embrace into open embrace allows space in
front for more interesting possibilities in the dance,
but, of course, more dance skills are required to take
advantage of this space. Sliding back into close
embrace after "giving it a rest" is wonderful as well.
I hear women who dance really well, complain that
being stuck in one position all the time cramps and
stifles their dance. A girl from Paris, said "I
cannot do my thing and it is annoying". I also have
noticed that the same women who complain about the
embrace opening up are usually the women who lack
dance skills in open embrace. When the man invites
them into open embrace, they are lost, so they get
mad.
My view is that dance skills in the US need to improve
markedly. Then, hopefully, the fear of trying new
ideas will disappear.
PS- Last night I danced with a woman who hated
dancing milongas. She would avoid dancing it when
ever she could, BUT suddenly, out the blue, she
finally got the rhythm. Now she loves dancing
milongas and she cannot stop. She wants to dance
milongas all the time. This is what I am talking
about. Once the dance skills are there, everything
changes for the better. The problem, of course, is
that the dance skills only happen when you persevere
in the dance and keep on trying. This means that you
have to dance a lot and try new things all the time,
to learn and grow. When you limit yourself, by saying
things like "we prefer close embrace" you are
excluding possibilities for maximum enjoyment of the
dance.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM> wrote:
> Derik Rawson wrote:
>
> > Dear Ron:
> >
> > I dance close embrace (Argentine) much of the
> time,
> > BUT NOT ALL THE TIME. "All the time close
> embrace" is
> > just a tourist tango, because it is so easy to do.
>
> But some milongas are so crowded they pretty much
> force close embrace all the time, at least unless
> you're
> desperate to live dangerously and make enemies, so I
> wouldn't
> necessarily call "close embrace all the time" a
> tourist tango...
>
> Yet there's a point.
>
> The *best* tangos are those where the connection
> effortlessly
> glides from being close to being less close,
> following the mood,
> the music, the partner's past ingestion of garlic,
> and the steps
> you're performing (and the speed at which you're
> performing them).
>
> That's *hard*, though. And a lot of followers don't
> actually
> *expect* you to lead invites to change the embrace
> -- some
> positively *loathe* that as it makes them feel
> insecure (or
> because they think a particular embrace or style is
> the
> Only Pinnacle of True Tango and you're just being a
> Despicable Heretic).
>
> A leader who hasn't experienced an arm glide from
> behind his neck
> to his arm before a giro and the caress when the arm
> goes back
> certainly is missing an experience...
>
> A continuous close embrace on a long and lyrical
> Cals or even
> di Sarli tanda on an empty dance floor certainly
> does indeed
> make me wonder at times (but if it floats their
> boat,...).
>
> --
> Alexis Cousein Solutions Architect
> Silicon Graphics/SGI
> --
> If I can see further, it is by standing on reference
> manuals.
>
>
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:18:15 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@BRUSSELS.SGI.COM>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
Ron Weigel wrote:
> the reason for dancing that way is more
> inward and partner-directed than only an adaptation to floor
> conditions.
If you read my mail carefully, I indicated adaptation to floor
conditions as only one reason for a close embrace.
> I and many others who dance tango in close embrace prefer
> it because of the serenity that is achieved in a stable comfortable
> close connection.
But to me, a tango actually has its own life, rythm, and it *breathes*
- and sometimes holds its breath, sometimes bundling an incredible
amount of energy in an instant and then releasing it.
Just like the music, actually, and very often it changes character
*with* it, or with the changing instrument the dance picks up as
a guide.
Serenity is not the only thing I'm after - a good book and a glass
of absinthe will do that for me just as nicely ;).
Even intimacy (which is what I think you were after, rather than
serenity) exists in many guises - some sweet and delicate,
some vibrant with energy.
> I don't believe the 'tango trance' can be achieved
> in a shifting embrace.
Oh yes it can - at least if the partners communicate well. But I'd have
to agree it's extremely hard to do it well, and that it's a make-or-break
proposition: changing the embrace either enhances the dance experience
or utterly destroys it.
And it requires an instinct for musicality as well - if the energy of
what you're doing and the changes in embrace clash with the music, you
end up looking really foolish very fast.
> In my opinion, opening the embrace breaks that
> serenity.
It does completely change the connection (but the connection
is just as firm, at least if it's done well - it is much
harder, BTW, to have a really good connection in an open frame)
and the energy - but that's usually the entire *purpose*.
--
Alexis Cousein Solutions Architect
Silicon Graphics/SGI
--
If I can see further, it is by standing on reference manuals.
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:47:04 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
Here we go again - "once more into the breach...", full Texan mode ON.
Derik Rawson wrote:
> I hear women who dance really well, complain that
> being stuck in one position all the time cramps and
> stifles their dance. A girl from Paris, said "I
> cannot do my thing and it is annoying". I also have
> noticed that the same women who complain about the
> embrace opening up are usually the women who lack
> dance skills in open embrace. When the man invites
> them into open embrace, they are lost, so they get
> mad.
Fine, whatever. These "girls" (let's see a show of hands of how many
*women* on the list bristled at *that* one) don't have to dance with
these men who "cramp their style." Maybe the guy's hand is a little too
far down on the back, restricting her hip movement (thanks for that tip,
Robert!). Fine - what prevents her from asking that he move his hand a
little higher onto her shoulder blade? Problem solved.
"I cannot do my thing blah, blah" - yeah, maybe "girl" was right - she
sounds about 13 years old. Geez, kid, don't dance with him - go find a
mirror and dance with yourself.
"Invites" is the operative word. Sounds to me like the reason they're
getting mad is that someone is not accepting their right to decline the
invitation and is trying to force them into open embrace. I have
partners who like moving in and out of close embrace, and others who
don't - if I loosen my hold, they keep that left arm draped around my
neck, which in my mind is a pretty good sign they're quite content to
stay where they are.
*Their choice* - it's about them, not us. And regarding skill or alleged
lack thereof, we're supposed to dance to their level, not ours. IT"S
ABOUT THEM, NOT US! Remember, Derik? That seems to be the one point that
you consistently miss in all your posts.
Michael (full Texan mode OFF)
Tango Bellingham
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:10:06 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
Rather like when making love, isn't it? Keep the Texas
mode ON, Michael!
Lucia
--- Michael at Tango Bellingham
<michaele@tangobellingham.com> escribis:
>
> Here we go again - "once more into the breach...",
> full Texan mode ON.
>
> Derik Rawson wrote:
>
> > I hear women who dance really well, complain that
> > being stuck in one position all the time cramps
> and
> > stifles their dance. A girl from Paris, said "I
> > cannot do my thing and it is annoying". I also
> have
> > noticed that the same women who complain about the
> > embrace opening up are usually the women who lack
> > dance skills in open embrace. When the man invites
> > them into open embrace, they are lost, so they get
> > mad.
>
> Fine, whatever. These "girls" (let's see a show of
> hands of how many
> *women* on the list bristled at *that* one) don't
> have to dance with
> these men who "cramp their style." Maybe the guy's
> hand is a little too
> far down on the back, restricting her hip movement
> (thanks for that tip,
> Robert!). Fine - what prevents her from asking that
> he move his hand a
> little higher onto her shoulder blade? Problem
> solved.
>
> "Invites" is the operative word. Sounds to me like
> the reason they're
> getting mad is that someone is not accepting their
> right to decline the
> invitation and is trying to force them into open
> embrace. I have
> partners who like moving in and out of close
> embrace, and others who
> don't - if I loosen my hold, they keep that left arm
> draped around my
> neck, which in my mind is a pretty good sign they're
> quite content to
> stay where they are.
>
> *Their choice* - it's about them, not us. And
> regarding skill or alleged
> lack thereof, we're supposed to dance to their
> level, not ours. IT"S
> ABOUT THEM, NOT US! Remember, Derik? That seems to
> be the one point that
> you consistently miss in all your posts.
>
> Michael (full Texan mode OFF)
> Tango Bellingham
>
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam !gratis!
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:54:22 +0200
From: Fulano de tal <campanero@SHINYFEET.COM>
Subject: Re: US Tourist Tango so called good dancer tango requires dancers to be protected precisely because they lack milongero skills
I too saw that video, it was really neat. Having been to BsAs and reading
some of the "interesting" threads about style, authenticity, etc. I was
glad to read that a few more people had the chance to see the documentary
of El Pial. I think it would be really good for all those who think that
they'd discovered the "true tango" or who think they know how it's done in
Buenos Aires to actually see this little film. I think it would be
educational and perhaps help to soften or moderate the acrimonious
arguments that crop up in this forum from time to time.
....
Igor Polk said:
> If is fascinating!!! With all these opinions.
>
> Check Susan Tango Pial documentary movie, and you will get the first hand
> experience how tango is danced in Buenos Aires, and who invented what...
>
> It is here, right here... at your fingertips, a great professional film:
>
> I hope you will never argue after watching the video what tango is better.
> https://www.virtuar.com/tango/articles/pial/tango_pial.htm
>
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
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