5094 variable embrace
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:16:44 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] variable embrace
Cc: tango-L@mit.edu
In terms of following experience, close embrace to me pretty much means
variable embrace. I was in a class at CITA with Naveira and he was
coming around to each of the pairs and corrected my partner of the
moment, who was a pretty new beginner. We were dancing more-or-less
close embrace (having learned as a beginner in open embrace it was
extremely close embrace to me) and my partner was trying to dance me
into a space that my body simply couldn't occupy, for front ochos and
for giro. Naveira told him "you have to change and make the space for
the woman, and then you change and go back." Obviously ochos and giros
can be made bigger and smaller (hence the stage and salon style
discussions) but at some point the space inside of the right arm for a
front ocho is either big enough for the follow, or it's not. Depending
on the amount of COD moves the lead chooses to lead, there will be a lot
of transitions in the embrace. I applaud the men with whom I have
danced who have made this a seamless experience! :) The reality,
however, is that this adjustment is a pretty difficult challenge for
beginning dancers who lead, and it is not an issue in open embrace. I
am not "advocating" open embrace over close embrace...just acknowledging
that it is really important to teach leads the space transition for COD
dance vocabulary and it is a lot for a beginner to handle.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 10:16:35 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] variable embrace
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
Carol Ruth said: "close embrace to me pretty much means variable embrace."
( and it is probably not her words )
Carol,
In my experience, everyone talking about "variable embrace " have no idea
what close embrace is.
Close Embrace is definitely NOT variable embrace.
Those who say so are trying to disguise their un-ability to perform certain
elements and figures in close embrace whatever their names are.
But variable embrace exists. And it is only for those who mastered all types
of embrace: open and close with all their variations.
To me, the best example of "variable" embrace mastery is Orlando Paiva and
his students. What magical moves they have!
Igor Polk
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:44:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] variable embrace
To: shepherd@arborlaw.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
I have come to believe that, since the term "close embrace" can mean
several different things, it leads to a lot of confusion.
The more erect you and your partner are when you are in your embrace,
the closer your feet are together. The more forward "lean" there is to
both of your postures, the more distance there is between your feet,
plenty enough for the woman to bring her unweighted foot across and
in front of herself.
Note, too, that when the two upper bodies are parallel to each other, it is
possible, by rotating the upper body/bodies appropriately, and changing the
amount of forward pressure, for the woman to feel the desire to let her leg
go in the indicated direction, across the front of her body.
My experience tells me, though, that the actual physical connection that
I get from most partners is so weak (ie close embrace means standing
really close to your partner) that the woman can't feel this sort of lead. Then,
too, there is the challenge of being able to rotate the torso more or less
independently of the hips, and vice versa, so that the leg can move freely
in the direction of the woman's new balance point...
It takes both partners being on the same page to make this work. No opening
of the embrace is required.
On the other hand, if you want to open the embrace, go right ahead.
Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net> wrote:
In terms of following experience, close embrace to me pretty much means
variable embrace. I was in a class at CITA with Naveira and he was
coming around to each of the pairs and corrected my partner of the
moment, who was a pretty new beginner. We were dancing more-or-less
close embrace (having learned as a beginner in open embrace it was
extremely close embrace to me) and my partner was trying to dance me
into a space that my body simply couldn't occupy, for front ochos and
for giro. Naveira told him "you have to change and make the space for
the woman, and then you change and go back." Obviously ochos and giros
can be made bigger and smaller (hence the stage and salon style
discussions) but at some point the space inside of the right arm for a
front ocho is either big enough for the follow, or it's not. Depending
on the amount of COD moves the lead chooses to lead, there will be a lot
of transitions in the embrace. I applaud the men with whom I have
danced who have made this a seamless experience! :) The reality,
however, is that this adjustment is a pretty difficult challenge for
beginning dancers who lead, and it is not an issue in open embrace. I
am not "advocating" open embrace over close embrace...just acknowledging
that it is really important to teach leads the space transition for COD
dance vocabulary and it is a lot for a beginner to handle.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:26:00 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] variable embrace
To: tang0man2005@yahoo.com, shepherd@arborlaw.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Hmmm.. The embrace in tango can be variable or not. In the Apilado style, it
is not variable at all. The dancers are connected at the chest and and the
woman's left arm is draped over the man's shoulder. Their other arm is held
loosely and the hand connection is also without tension or energy. I have
experienced this first hand from such Apilado teachers as Susana Miller (I
dance with her every time I see her at a milonga). I've also danced with
other women who teach and dance that style exclusively and they all dance
that way.
Another thing I've noticed is that some women who've learned that style tend
to lean or even hang on the man. I don't know why this happens because the
teachers (such as Susana Miller) quit teaching that stuff years ago. A close
embrace is what all tango dancing requires. One can relax the embrace and
make it variable in order to dance some figures. With skilled partners I
find it very easy to dance a good variety of movements while maintaining a
very close embrace. However, if the women hang on me or lean on me, the
dance becomes quite limited.
Also, I enjoy dancing with partners who can dance more interesting steps or
moves. Some movements require a lot more flexibility in the embrace as it's
impossible to perform them if the dancers are glued at the chest. For
instance, any turn requiring more than 3 steps to either direction is much
easier to perform if the embrace is loosened. Centrifugal force is very much
in evidence for many tango steps. This requires that the dancers actually
lean away from each other. Try sometimes taking hands with another person
and turning circles around one another. You'll see how easy it is if you
lean away from each other. If you lean towards each other, it's impossible
to do.
Things like sacadas, barridas, ganchos and boleos are movements that
originate from places in the turn (molinete, giro, etc.). All these moves
are generated from changes of direction in the turn. All these movements are
more easily performed with a relaxed, open embrace. Before I get flamed, let
me hasten to ad that small boleos, sacadas and even displacements can be
successfully done in close embrace (I do them all the time). However, no
gancho, barrida or back sacada can be done during a close, apilado position.
Obviously, some people enjoy dancing a variety of dance moves and steps and
enjoy the freedom of interpreting the music with more variety. OTOH, some
people hate anything that is not their style of dance. Usually, those who
can, enjoy dancing a variety of styles. Even some people who are not so
skilled enjoy trying out fancy moves they see others do. Unfortunately, when
unskilled dancers attempt more advanced moves, they usually look less than
elegant and can interfere with other dancers on the floor. Still, this is no
reason to rail against different styles of tango or to question their
authenticity, validiity, etc. A variable embrace is indeed a very fine thing
to use if needed. A close embrace is also just fine and quite pleasant to
use.
Enjoy your own dance!!
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
>To: shepherd@arborlaw.com
>CC: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] variable embrace
>Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 12:44:56 -0700 (PDT)
>
>I have come to believe that, since the term "close embrace" can mean
> several different things, it leads to a lot of confusion.
> The more erect you and your partner are when you are in your embrace,
> the closer your feet are together. The more forward "lean" there is to
> both of your postures, the more distance there is between your feet,
> plenty enough for the woman to bring her unweighted foot across and
> in front of herself.
> Note, too, that when the two upper bodies are parallel to each other, it
>is
> possible, by rotating the upper body/bodies appropriately, and changing
>the
> amount of forward pressure, for the woman to feel the desire to let her
>leg
> go in the indicated direction, across the front of her body.
> My experience tells me, though, that the actual physical connection that
> I get from most partners is so weak (ie close embrace means standing
> really close to your partner) that the woman can't feel this sort of
>lead. Then,
> too, there is the challenge of being able to rotate the torso more or
>less
> independently of the hips, and vice versa, so that the leg can move
>freely
> in the direction of the woman's new balance point...
> It takes both partners being on the same page to make this work. No
>opening
> of the embrace is required.
> On the other hand, if you want to open the embrace, go right ahead.
>
>
>
>
>
>Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net> wrote:
> In terms of following experience, close embrace to me pretty much means
>variable embrace. I was in a class at CITA with Naveira and he was
>coming around to each of the pairs and corrected my partner of the
>moment, who was a pretty new beginner. We were dancing more-or-less
>close embrace (having learned as a beginner in open embrace it was
>extremely close embrace to me) and my partner was trying to dance me
>into a space that my body simply couldn't occupy, for front ochos and
>for giro. Naveira told him "you have to change and make the space for
>the woman, and then you change and go back." Obviously ochos and giros
>can be made bigger and smaller (hence the stage and salon style
>discussions) but at some point the space inside of the right arm for a
>front ocho is either big enough for the follow, or it's not. Depending
>on the amount of COD moves the lead chooses to lead, there will be a lot
>of transitions in the embrace. I applaud the men with whom I have
>danced who have made this a seamless experience! :) The reality,
>however, is that this adjustment is a pretty difficult challenge for
>beginning dancers who lead, and it is not an issue in open embrace. I
>am not "advocating" open embrace over close embrace...just acknowledging
>that it is really important to teach leads the space transition for COD
>dance vocabulary and it is a lot for a beginner to handle.
>
>--
>Carol Ruth Shepherd
>Arborlaw PLC
>Ann Arbor MI USA
>734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
>https://arborlaw.com
>
>"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
>
>
>
>Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web
>links.
Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!
https://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:03:15 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] variable embrace
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Manuel:
"Try sometimes taking hands with another person and turning circles around
one another. You'll see how easy it is if you lean away from each other. If
you lean towards each other, it's impossible to do."
Igor:
"I am not quite sure what you mean. If you mean Molinete, giro, it is
possible to do. I do it every milonga with a variety of partners."
Manuel:
"However, no gancho, barrida or back sacada can be done during a close,
apilado position."
Igor:
Gancho is one of the easiest elements for close embrace. Barriada - no
problem. Back sacada - I do not know. I do not know how to make back sacadas
in any embrace.
Manuel,
Close embrace requires different technique. And it works fine !
Manuel:
"Things like sacadas, barridas, ganchos and boleos are movements that
originate from places in the turn (molinete, giro, etc.). All these moves
are generated from changes of direction in the turn."
That is only a very special, partial view on the thighs. That is the Naveira
theory. Of course, with this approach you will not be able to make a gancho
in tight apilado.
You guys, Tango Nuevo supporters and followers, do not even assume that
there are other ways of doing things !
Open your eyes !
Igor Polk
www.virtuar.com/tango/
