5591 Way too much kicking
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 03:05:45 -0500
From: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340903250105w3e373fb5p33d500a9c2059e49@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com> wrote:
Why is this being 'taught'?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYUv-4knVu4
Would you want to be dancing behind this woman on a crowded floor?
Or even not so crowded? Will she pull her kicks when more people
are dancing or will she forget once in a while?
On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 1:56 PM, David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com> wrote:
You should be so lucky! Paula is a lovely, lovely dancer. I
have danced with her on a floor so crowded that it was later compared
to "waiting in line" rather than dancing. She certainly accommodates
her dance to the available space. Do you see anybody around her in
the video? Didn't think so.
Mario has a point. Paula may adapt her dance to floor conditions, but
what are the women observers learning from the demonstration? Are they
thinking 'This is an exhibition. I would never do this on a social
dance floor.' Or are they thinking 'This kicking is so cool. I wish I
could do that', and they won't have the opportunity to give an
exhibition defined as such so instead they will do their exhibition on
the social dance floor.
There is way way too much kicking in the air occurring on the social
dance floor these days, even in Buenos Aires, by tourists who have
learned it here and there but not learned the social codes of the
milonga, specifically - keep you feet on the floor and dance within
your frame.
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com> wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBREIWVDrXs&feature=related
Some have not seen videos of Mamie + Carlitos and if not
you are missing something brilliant. Here is a performance
of a familiar Vals in which they show 'mastery' of the dance.
Sorry, Mario. Mamie's boleos don't exactly hug the floor either.
'Tango milonguero' it isn't. This is how the milongueros dance vals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-nunHKNqs
If you can't see the beauty in this demo, you're dancing the wrong dance.
Ron
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:31:55 -0400
From: macfroggy@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
To: tango-l@mit.edu
As luck would have it,
last week my friend Gail Miller captured Amanda Lucero singing and
dancing a solo tango in the bathroom of Los Consagrados, where Amanda
works. Check it out on my blog:
https://tangocherie.blogspot.com/2009/03/amanda-lucero-solo-tango.html
cherie
Sorry, Mario. Mamie's boleos don't exactly hug the floor either.
'Tango milonguero' it isn't. This is how the milongueros dance vals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-nunHKNqs
If you can't see the beauty in this demo, you're dancing the wrong dance.
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:09:17 -0600
From: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340903251009m55dc0444r799993125310a2a0@mail.gmail.com>
2009/3/25 Vince Bagu?auskas <vytis@hotmail.com>:
>
> "There is way way too much kicking in the air occurring on the social
> dance floor these days, even in Buenos Aires, by tourists who have
> learned it here and there but not learned the social codes of the
> milonga, specifically - keep you feet on the floor and dance within
> your frame."
>
>
> Having just experienced Practica X and two other younger (under 40) milongas in BsAs in the last week so far, ?the many very excellent local teachers do big moves in the air. ?Seems that they are very capable to avoid kicking people. ?There are less tourists at these milongas than you think.
>
I was referring to my experience last July - August at mainstream
milongas (e.g., at El Beso, Plaza Bohemia, Club Gricel), where the
norm for dancing is Tango de Salon. In this environment, where floor
density is high, kicking is unacceptable. The women doing the kicking
were known to be foreigners.
For an even more detailed account of the kicking epidemic in Buenos
Aires milongas, check the blog of Deby Novitz, who lives in Buenos
Aires:
https://tangospam.typepad.com/
I can't account for nuevo practicas like Practica X. There are
different rules there. Different dance, different rules.
Ron
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 12:31:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mario has a point. Paula may adapt her dance to floor conditions, but what are the women observers learning from the demonstration? Are they
> thinking 'This is an exhibition. I would never do this on a social
> dance floor.' Or are they thinking 'This kicking is so cool. I wish I
> could do that', and they won't have the opportunity to give an
> exhibition defined as such so instead they will do their exhibition on
> the social dance floor.
I'm sure that not every woman there was an idiot. I'm sure there were women watching who do when the appropriate time is to some high kicks. There may be some people, too, that won't know what the appropriate time is. But I don't see the point of withholding this type of information. Unless, of course, you never want a woman to learn to be expressive, learn new ways of controlling her body, or perhaps learn to hear the music differently.
And if a woman does kick too much on the social dance floor, IT'S THE MAN'S FAULT FOR LEADING VOCABULARY THAT ALLOWS HER TO DO THAT.
Don't be so quick to negatively judge a woman's ornaments when you have no idea the work a woman has to do in order to execute an ornament well. If Paula has inspired someone to work on their movements to try to execute the ornaments she's showing, then good for her!
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:51:48 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ecf43f370903251351ie2f900cud18c87b13b4dcacb@mail.gmail.com>
On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:31 PM, Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
<patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mario has a point. Paula may adapt her dance to floor conditions, but what are the women observers learning from the demonstration? Are they
>> thinking 'This is an exhibition. I would never do this on a social
>> dance floor.' Or are they thinking 'This kicking is so cool. I wish I
>> could do that', and they won't have the opportunity to give an
>> exhibition defined as such so instead they will do their exhibition on
>> the social dance floor.
>
> I'm sure that not every woman there was an idiot. ?I'm sure there were women watching who do when the appropriate time is to some high kicks.
I'm curious, Trini, just when is this "appropriate" time, other
than on the stage? I don't see how these particular kicks are ever
appropriate on the social floor with any appreciable amount of people.
At least not at any milonga I'd ever consider attending.
> But I don't see the point of withholding this type of information.
What is the point of teaching something that is arguably never
appropriate to the social floor? Unless the class is specifically
labelled exhibition tango. I seriously doubt that's the case in this
instance, judging by the text accompanying the video. It appears to
be this couple's regularly scheduled local tango class, ostensibly for
the purpose of teaching people how to dance tango at milongas.
> Unless, of course, you never want a woman to learn to be expressive, learn new ways of controlling her body, or perhaps learn to hear the music differently.
So anything goes in the interests of self-expression and hearing
the music differently? That includes shrugging one's shoulders in
time with the music, swaying back and forth as if one were at a cowboy
hootenanny, or, say, humping the man's leg on the dance floor to
express the randy passion one is feeling at the moment?
> And if a woman does kick too much on the social dance floor, IT'S THE MAN'S FAULT FOR LEADING VOCABULARY THAT ALLOWS HER TO DO THAT.
Oh dear. With all due respect to the many fine postings of yours
I've enjoyed over the years, Trini: What an utterly silly notion.
The leader was not leading the kicks in this video in any way, shape
or form whatsoever.
The man shouldn't lead anything allowing her to do that? The
leader in the video is doing nothing more than leading simple tango.
How is that "allowing" the kicks? What is the leader supposed to do,
put chains and shackles on her legs to prevent such kicking? What can
he do, other than dump her right there on the floor and run away for
dear life, hoping not too many people noticed him dancing with her?
> Don't be so quick to negatively judge a woman's ornaments when you have no idea the work a woman has to do in order to execute an ornament well.
Say what?!?
Huck
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 12:24:25 +1100
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
Cc: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
Sometimes, I should be quiet, but hey...
Addressing any person that really is not very experienced. Vince makes
a good point below.
Why would you 1 make such comments and 2 - do it publically?
1 - you too were a tourist and very inexperienced even compared to
those tourists most likely to be attending Practica X as it is greatly
attended by very experienced dancers and a large majority of them are
international teachers/professional. It is known FOR nuevo and people
like yourselves who are still learning even basic techniques cause
most of those incidents. BUT, as it is a practica, the vast majority
of the experienced dancers accept that there will be some incidents
and the floor us fairly well Self-regulated anyway.
2. Even now at milongas here, not to mention there, I still see
beginner men telling more experienced ladies what to do and at
practicas, even TEACHING them- very sad as most of them are not even
able to walk in an ARGENTINE TANGO STLYE yet!
3. Practicas, men! Swallow your pride! Ask more experienced dancers
for help! You just might improve then! Male or female!
> 2009/3/25 Vince Bagu?auskas <vytis@hotmail.com>:
>>
>> "There is way way too much kicking in the air occurring on the social
>> dance floor these days, even in Buenos Aires, by tourists who have
>> learned it here and there but not learned the social codes of the
>> milonga, specifically - keep you feet on the floor and dance within
>> your frame."
>>
>>
>> Having just experienced Practica X and two other younger (under 40)
>> milongas in BsAs in the last week so far, the many very excellent
>> local teachers do big moves in the air. Seems that they are very
>> capable to avoid kicking people. There are less tourists at these
>> milongas than you think.
>>
>
> For an even more detailed account of the kicking epidemic in Buenos
> Aires milongas, check the blog of Deby Novitz, who lives in Buenos
> Aires:
>
> https://tangospam.typepad.com/
>
>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 20:21:13 -0600
From: "Brian Dunn" <brian@danceoftheheart.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
Dear List,
>>>>
Trini> I'm sure that not every woman there was an idiot. I'm sure there were women watching who do when the appropriate time is to some high kicks.
Huck> I'm curious, Trini, just when is this "appropriate" time, other
than on the stage? I don't see how these particular kicks are ever
appropriate on the social floor with any appreciable amount of people.
At least not at any milonga I'd ever consider attending.
<<<<
I suspect Trini means that these moves would be appropriate on the social floor when there are NOT "an appreciable amount" of people - by which, let's assume, Huck means "too many people to allow this to be executed safely". Huck, maybe you never attend such milongas where this much room is available AT TIMES. But I often attend wonderful milongas where there is frequently enough room for such adornments, properly executed, without inconveniencing anyone, especially earlier or later in the evening. As one might expect, some people take advantage of the relatively larger amount of dance room to express themselves, and others don't. You may not enjoy dancing when there is that much room, you may not choose to dance with followers who express themselves in this way, and of course you're free to sit out anything which doesn't meet your preferences. But it hardly follows that it's "inappropriate" for someone else to use THEIR SHARE of the floor AT THAT MOMENT to express them!
selves. Why else are any of us there, but to use OUR SHARE of the floor to express ourselves in the arms of our partners?
>>>>
Trini> But I don't see the point of withholding this type of information.
Huck> What is the point of teaching something that is arguably never
appropriate to the social floor?...It appears to
be this couple's regularly scheduled local tango class, ostensibly for
the purpose of teaching people how to dance tango at milongas.
<<<<
Are you saying that any milonga that is uncrowded enough at a given moment for these things to be executed safely is, by your definition, no longer a "social floor"? Well, OK, whatever...again, you can sit out anything you don't like. As a leader, the milongas I describe above sure still FEEL like "social floors" to me when they are this uncrowded - everyone keeping an eye out for social distance, line of dance, etc., regardless of adornment choices.
Perhaps it's useful here to dust off the "authenticity" flag and wave it a bit. In 2004, Deb and I were taking a private lesson in Buenos Aires with Miguel Angel "Pepino" Balbi, a well-known "true milonguero" who was starting to teach privately to visiting tangueros. There was a translator present to facilitate, because Miguel Angel spoke little to no English. He and Deb were hitting it off famously while dancing, and to express her joy in the moment, Deb started to do a high-kick adornment much like what was shown in the video. Miguel Angel said something which sounded expressive of his enjoyment to me - but what the (somewhat disapproving) translator chose to "translate" was "the milongueros don't like dancing that has lots of adornments". Well, Miguel Angel apparently knew enough English to stop the lesson right there, and tell us that that was not what he said, that he himself didn't like followers who always danced exactly alike, as if they were clones (he even sai!
d "like Dolly the sheep", if you remember the first cloned sheep that made the news) and that he very much enjoyed Deb's expressive adornments.
So with that vote of confidence from old Buenos Aires, perhaps we can all agree that such "expressive movements" have their place in the social dance AT TIMES (like, whenever there is "room enough")? If that's true, then certainly women students can benefit from examples of elegant expression (such as the class video) as part of their learning process for the milonga. Then, whenever they DO have room at their local milongas, at least they'll be able to look and feel good as they express themselves (safely, with consideration, in an appropriate scale, as their leader may indicate space to execute it, etc. etc.)
OK, let's say it ONE MORE TIME - be expressive, but don't take up more than YOUR SHARE of the floor with your expressiveness.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
775 Pleasant Street
Boulder, CO 80302 USA
303-938-0716
www.danceoftheheart.com
?Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time?
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:28:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
Thanks, Brian, for pointing out that milongas have a flow and are not static things.
--- On Wed, 3/25/09, Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com> wrote:
> The man shouldn't lead anything allowing her to do
> that? The leader in the video is doing nothing more than leading
> simple tango. How is that "allowing" the kicks? What is the
> leader supposed to do, put chains and shackles on her legs to prevent such kicking? What can he do, other than dump her right there on the floor and run away for dear life, hoping not too many people noticed him dancing with her?
Someone always used to complain about this woman who would always do an unled front boleo after a back boleo. My answer was simple: quit leading back boleos, duh! If a man realizes that everytime he leads a turn, the woman will turn into an high-kicking ninja, then he shouldn't be leading turns if he wants a tanguera and not a ninja. A leader is expected to tone down his dance for a beginner. Same thing here. And if he doesn't want to alter his dance as such, then he shouldn't be dancing with her.
> > Don't be so quick to negatively judge a
> woman's ornaments when you have no idea the work a woman
> has to do in order to execute an ornament well.
>
> Say what?!?
Nice-looking ornaments don't just happen by accident. It's not easy embellishing gracefully almost instantly on someone else's improvised choreography. And to do it musically so that it makes sense. And make it look organic and flowing. And within the timing so that it doesn't interfere with the man's idea. And with awareness of the dance floor. There's a lot of embellishment exercises in addition to the host of exercises for balance, axis, grounding, walking, pivoting, turning, etc. And guess what? Working on the embellishment exercises is going to help with the basics!
Women, just like men, will see things and try to imitate them. I'd rather that they get instruction in a class setting where a teacher can give them pointers on how to do it right. Much better than some guy telling her on the dance floor that she can kick this way or that way or tell the woman that she can rub her leg against him. Yes, that happens.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 02:27:00 +1100
From: Vince Bagu?auskas <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
To: <tango.society@gmail.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
"There is way way too much kicking in the air occurring on the social
dance floor these days, even in Buenos Aires, by tourists who have
learned it here and there but not learned the social codes of the
milonga, specifically - keep you feet on the floor and dance within
your frame."
Having just experienced Practica X and two other younger (under 40) milongas in BsAs in the last week so far, the many very excellent local teachers do big moves in the air. Seems that they are very capable to avoid kicking people. There are less tourists at these milongas than you think.
Cheers
View photos of singles in your area. Click Here
https://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fdating%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fchannel%2Findex%2Easpx%3Ftrackingid%3D1046247&_tw3166080&_r=Hotmail_Endtext&_m=EXT
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 14:44:46 +0100 (CET)
From: verena.faigle@arcor.de
Subject: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<27610138.1238247886934.JavaMail.ngmail@webmail19.ha2.local>
For many years I?ve experienced men in Europe leading me on the dance floor in unnecessary kicks, telling me what to do when I stubbornly refused to do stuff like this on a dance floor. Right now I?m in Buenos Aires, where I haven?t been for ten years. And I can assure you, there are not just tourists who lead women in the wildest kicks on the dance floor...
The good old style of Buenos Aires has been lost, as many old dancers agreed with, when I told them about my experiences. I?m not talking about the experimental places, I talk of the old salones bailables. There still are wonderful milongas, but you really have to ask your way around.
Even in Buenos Aires there is way too much kicking and showing off wild steps.... You even can?t expect people to be moving around on the dance floor any more. I danced with an old milongueiro these days, who finally told the couple in front of us to move on or leave the dance floor. What people used to do in the center of the dance floor, they are now doing right on its ourtskirts too.
Milongas in Buenos Aires still can be really great, but I?ve never been kicked and stepped on in Bs As as often as it happened to me these weeks. And not by tourists only.
Verena
Zerrei?en Sie die Netze der Phisher, Hacker und Betr?ger!
Ihre Internet-Sicherheits-Seiten auf Arcor.de bieten alle Infos und Hilfsmittel, die Sie zum sicheren Surfen brauchen! Play it safe!
https://www.arcor.de/footer-sicherheit/
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:23:56 -0400
From: Steve Littler <sl@stevelittler.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Way too much kicking
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Wow. Amazing to hear!
In Oct 2007 a very nice YouTube playlist of Milongas in BA was created
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8myVFqoHi4&feature=PlayList&pD82910EA34466F&index=0
(thanks to https://www.youtube.com/user/onetangospring )
Watching this they looked pretty well mannered to me and I enjoyed
seeing them and the nice level of dancing there. I'd be curious if there
are any videos showing what they look like now with "way too much kicking."
Steve in Gainesville
verena.faigle@arcor.de wrote:
> Even in Buenos Aires there is way too much kicking and showing off
> wild steps.... You even can?t expect people to be moving around on the
> dance floor any more. I danced with an old milongueiro these days, who
> finally told the couple in front of us to move on or leave the dance
> floor. What people used to do in the center of the dance floor, they
> are now doing right on its ourtskirts too.
>
> Milongas in Buenos Aires still can be really great, but I?ve never
> been kicked and stepped on in Bs As as often as it happened to me
> these weeks. And not by tourists only.
>
>
>
