5690  What do you think?

Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:02:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think?


Hi all,

I'd like to get others' analysis of this performance by Sebastian Arce and Marianna Montes. I think highly of Sebastian and Marianna as teachers and dancers. As I watched this performance, however, I began to think that he was going to lift her up in the air over his head, and I realized that somewhere they had wandered into modern dance or ballet territory. That's what one expects when one sees modern dance or ballet. I'm not knowledgeable enough to figure out when that change occurred for me. I'd like to see what others knowledgeable about modern dance or ballet think.

https://www.youtube.com/user/liffeylinda#play/all/uploads-all/0/yJHIUdavnKk

I'd like to hear from those who can analyze it intelligently and dispassionately, and not just give personal opinions.

Thanks,
Trini

Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:19:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I am sympathetic to lovely dancers who have talent and grace and skill.

I appreciate the tone of their comments.

I just wish they would add:

This is performance tango, or tango for a place where everybody is doing
nuevo and there is disregard for other dancers on the floor.

Please don't do this in a social dancing context.

People hate being kicked in the neck by show-off dancers.

Thank you.

Enjoy your tango whatever kind it is.

Just please be considerate of other dancers.

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:27:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?

> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>
>
> I'd like to get others' analysis of this performance by Sebastian Arce and
> Marianna Montes.? >
> https://www.youtube.com/user/liffeylinda#play/all/uploads-all/0/yJHIUdavnKk
>

My personal view is that I found it clumsy and boring, especially Sebastian
who isn't trained for this type?of dancing.?I love to watch great tango performers
because they can do what others can only dream about. They inspire us.

But if I want to see something like this, I'll watch the world's best latin couples
dance a Show-Rumba and do it a thousand times better.

Just my opinion.

Jack

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:43:31 +0200
From: Bertil Nestorius <bertil36@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>


I always get very surpriced at the bad respons on this list for this couple. For me this is probably the best couple in world, wenn it comes to being able to dance all styles of tango. There is nothing of clumsiness in their dance but an abundance of connection. For me people who don't see that cannot understand dance.

Back to Trini first question, to my experience there is in this little new stuff in this piece, all the lifts they are doing, were they doing already 2007 if not earlier. But what I noticed in the last couple of years is that Sebastian and Mariana are starting to put more distinction between the different styles. Their classic number have become even more classical and so on.

And I don't get the feeling he is going to lift here over his head. I'm not a big fan of lifts but these are done so smoothe you can't really get mad at them, and Sebastian is always using Marianas energy thats why it stays dancing and doesn't become gymnastics. I've seen much worse in tango, and usually these couples are not dancing Nuevo ;-).

Best regards,
Bertil Nestorius

> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:27:43 -0700
> From: jackdylan007@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
>
>
>> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS)
>>
>> I'd like to get others' analysis of this performance by Sebastian Arce and
>> Marianna Montes. >
>> https://www.youtube.com/user/liffeylinda#play/all/uploads-all/0/yJHIUdavnKk
>>
>
> My personal view is that I found it clumsy and boring, especially Sebastian
> who isn't trained for this type of dancing. I love to watch great tango performers
> because they can do what others can only dream about. They inspire us.
>
> But if I want to see something like this, I'll watch the world's best latin couples
> dance a Show-Rumba and do it a thousand times better.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>

With Windows Live, you can organize, edit, and share your photos.
https://www.microsoft.com/middleeast/windows/windowslive/products/photo-gallery-edit.aspx

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 01:54:31 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0907260854g6a351fcdu6d3455d8ac3c646d@mail.gmail.com>

Trini, Jack...........

It was an incredibly difficult piece to dance to to begin...? 99% of
dancers should really sit for the subtleties that are in this music
are very difficult to dance to, let alone do it exceptionally well.

Remember, you don't have to like their style, or their interpretation
to appreciate that what they did do, was both very graceful and
incredibly skillful.

According to Jack, this was not inspiring, but Jack, do you move as
smoothly as they do?? Are you able to execute some of the most
incredibly complex movements smoothly and without fault? Not that
it's about you, but I also feel that to critique others, one should be
at a certain level.. Are you at their level?? Probably not - I don't
know you, but considering every teacher in BA except for a few attend
the classes of SA and MM, then they obviously have something that we
all want.? If any of us wanted to watch ballroom, then I don't think
that we would be watching this.

Clumsy?? How?? How exactly was it clumsy?? How did they not move
gracefully?? How did they do it with a lack of skill?? Any of it?
That to me is just a blind stupid statement.? Yes - I say it as I see
it.? I am not 'flaming' here.? But if you are going to make an
incredibly bold and IMHO unjust statement, then back it up.

I urge any of you to try successfully and gracefully the gancho lift
pianazzo at 4.20 without feeling stressed, off balance or
uncomfortable....Let alone the frozen boleo leading to other 'nuevo'
moves at 5.00.? The control and skill for that... well, try it and
then comment.? I do do the above moves and very comfortably with my
partner and other skilled dancers.? Like the ocho cortado, they take
practice and repitition to do and to do well.

With reference to the tango growing - it has grown since it began and
will continue to.

Bertil....

I agree with you - although I'm a Chicho fan when it comes to
musicality, it is incredibly hard to fault (if at all) this couple.
To date, the most successful tango couple in the world.? More so than
any other, as you say, they dance all styles and blend them better
than anyone.

No overhead lifts even visible and I do do those when I do stage
tango.? It's a part of that genre, even Arce/Montes did in other
performances when dancing stage - their versatility is beyond
question.. IMO.

Damian

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:07:07 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: keith@totango.net
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cb8208d0907260907g32072b1t7a23d4dee862954b@mail.gmail.com>

Keith,

An excellent comment and observation.

I would also add... adjust maybe that any dancer can dance with
disregard (refer to another thread on 'nuevo versus ... ") be they
milonguero or nuevo. It is the dancer, not the style that determines
regard or disregard for other dancers.....

Looking forward to meeting you at the next Para Los Ninos ball in
Brisbane, the organisers are very good friends of mine!

Damian

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 09:37:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?

> From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
>
> According to Jack, this was not inspiring, but Jack, do you move as
> smoothly as they do?? Are you able to execute some of the most
> incredibly complex movements smoothly and without fault?? >

No, I'm not a professional, so of course I can't dance anywhere near their
standard and I'm guessing that's true of most of the people on this list.
But when they start to dance figures that are very similar to what I've seen
in latin dancing, especially Rumba [for shows, not competition], then they
should expect to be compared with the best latin dancers and?not just tango
dancers.?And, on that basis, IMHO, when attempting those figures, they're
not smooth, graceful or very skilful.

To even things up, when I see world class ballroom tango dancers try to use
elements from Argentine Tango, they also look very silly.

Jack

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 02:52:48 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0907260952w7d341286xfeec702f04edeac8@mail.gmail.com>

As an ex professional ballroomer... I personally don't see the Rumba
in any of their dancing... maybe because most smooth dancing has
similar elements.... the music is often the differential. Walz had
many of the same steps as Foxtrot, take away the music and show the
sames steps, then you tell me which dance they are doing.... Even the
most seasoned professional would have trouble with that.

Rumba done professionally, even an amateur will immediately learn to
lead their footwork with a toe... use of hips, flowing arms....
shorter steps very dissimilar to tango... None of this was in that
dance... Curious, where did you see rumba here? Timing? Again
different to Rumba, they did no 'figures', none.... if you can show or
enlighten us, then that would be great.

As for the best in the world.. fake ballroom dancers, even the best
don't touch this couple or even the worst couple around in tango for
connection... timing, yes. Presentation, yes. Preparation, yes...
but are they better... who cares? They are ballroom......

Damian

2009/7/27 Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>:

>
>> From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
>>
>> According to Jack, this was not inspiring, but Jack, do you move as
>> smoothly as they do?? Are you able to execute some of the most
>> incredibly complex movements smoothly and without fault?? >
>
> No, I'm not a professional, so of course I can't dance anywhere near their
> standard and I'm guessing that's true of most of the people on this list.
> But when they start to dance figures that are very similar to what I've seen
> in latin dancing, especially Rumba [for shows, not competition], then they
> should expect to be compared with the best latin dancers and?not just tango
> dancers.?And, on that basis, IMHO, when attempting those figures, they're
> not smooth, graceful or very skilful.
>
> To even things up, when I see world class ballroom tango dancers try to use
> elements from Argentine Tango, they also look very silly.
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:13:38 -0400
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ebb7980c0907261013y4565c7d0oa8030ddc6439be73@mail.gmail.com>

> but I also feel that to critique others, one should be at a certain level.. Are you at their level?

I strongly disagree with that. I do not need to be a professional
singer to be able to say that I like the voice of one singer and
dislike the voice of another. I do not need to be a heavy metal guitar
player to be able to say that I like Kirk Hammett's solos and dislike
Yngwie Malmsteen's. So I don't see why one should be a dancer at a
certain level to be able to critique others. For example, I know I am
many, many orders of magnitude below Chicho, and will never be; but it
doesn't mean I have to admire everything he does... most of the videos
of him that I saw were full of very complex and precise movements that
looked very fussy - like he was compromising the "tango feeling" for
the extra complexity, but the result wasn't quite satisfying.

Sergey

May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 03:24:36 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0907261024u713d33faj8578a8a12e538aed@mail.gmail.com>

Indeed, this is what an opinion is is it not? Like the old saying
says, "an opinion is like an ............, we all have one..."
Sometimes better left unsaid let alone written for an entire
undisclosed list....

But note, that I did say, at least justify your comment... your
position. Is this not one of the guidelines of this list? For every
positive, a negative.. every pro, a con. But with reason, then it's
worth at least either reading or listening to.

Being of a certain level, should only add credence to the argument..
the perspective, but as we all know, is not a be all and end
all.......

Damian

2009/7/27 Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>:

>> but I also feel that to critique others, one should be at a certain level.. Are you at their level?
>
> I strongly disagree with that. I do not need to be a professional
> singer to be able to say that I like the voice of one singer and
> dislike the voice of another. I do not need to be a heavy metal guitar
> player to be able to say that I like Kirk Hammett's solos and dislike
> Yngwie Malmsteen's. So I don't see why one should be a dancer at a
> certain level to be able to critique others. For example, I know I am
> many, many orders of magnitude below Chicho, and will never be; but it
> doesn't mean I have to admire everything he does... most of the videos
> of him that I saw were full of very complex and precise movements that
> looked very fussy - like he was compromising the "tango feeling" for
> the extra complexity, but the result wasn't quite satisfying.
>
> Sergey

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:36:33 +0000 (GMT)
From: Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
<patangos@yahoo.com>

You don't need to be a professional dancer [or musician], indeed, you don't need to know anything about dancing to realise that they dance to the music about 5% of the time. The rest bears no relation. This is what makes it look clumsy. All that is missing is a tightrope.
Yes, the unrelated juxtaposition of sound and movement is a fad in Modern Dance going back well over 50 years, and worked pretty well for Cage & Cunnigham. But this is supposed to be tango......?
They picked the most undanceable piece by Piazzolla and used it as a backdrop. The poor man must be turning in his grave.

Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.


--- On Sat, 25/7/09, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:

> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>

however, I began to think that he

> was going to lift her up in the air over his head, and I
> realized that somewhere they had wandered into modern dance
> or ballet territory.? That's what one expects when one
> sees modern dance or ballet.? I'm not knowledgeable
> enough to figure out when that change occurred for me.?
> I'd like to see what others knowledgeable about modern dance
> or ballet think.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/user/liffeylinda#play/all/uploads-all/0/yJHIUdavnKk

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:03:33 +0200
From: Andy Ungureanu <abungureanu@googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?



Am 26.07.2009 20:36 schrieb Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI :

> You don't need to be a professional dancer [or musician], indeed, you don't need to know anything about dancing to realise that they dance to the music about 5% of the time. The rest bears no relation. This is what makes it look clumsy. All that is missing is a tightrope.
>

Sorry Andrew, I don't know how such a topic can be discussed in a
correct manner, but for me they are at least 95% of the time perfectly
in line with the music. The music is indeed not very easy, but I heard
it the same way they did. I think individual people hear the music
differently.
There may be a possibility to analyse the music and the corresponding
movements, but it is far beyond the technical ability of a mailing list.
By the way, many professional choreographers take far less care about
the music than the top tango professionals.

Andy

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:01:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?


Let me be clear. I never criticized their dancing or said that they were bad dancers. I just stated that I think they wandered into modern dance or ballet. When I was a beginner (back when videos of tango were hard to find), I bought a video tape of a ballet company doing tango. To my eye, it was clearly ballet, not tango. If a clip of this was shown to those untrained in tango, would they think that parts of the dance was modern dance or ballet and not tango?

Being something of a skeptic, I'm not going to automatically assume that what someone says is "the truth" just because he/she is an authority. If Sebastian said that what he was doing was the square dance, I'm not going to blindly agree that it is the square dance.

There are moments at around 5:02, 6:16, 6:58, and the ending when the character of the dance seems to change and it appears more like modern dance than tango. I'm not trained in modern dance, so I'm trying to figure out the elements that would make someone think "oh, this is modern dance or ballet" instead of "oh, this is tango".

Some of the responses from people seem to be too rooted in their own ideas of what they want tango to be. In what people have been trained to think. But if you're able to step out of that mindset and look at the video objectively, what would you see?

Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:00:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

May I share some thoughts?

If there were no new people coming-in to tango in a flow, we would be back
to the dark ages from the 50's to late 80's when all there was was tango
por export (that video was a version from today of that).

But, isn't it pretty much a given that when big, flashy shows are touring,
local activities get a boost? When nothing big is going around, things
settle back into recruitment harder-to-do.

So, when a Forever Tango or TangoX2 or whatever is happening, everybody
benefits. If only from the opportunity to dress-up and go out for a
special tango evening.

(I mean - if for instance Miguel or Osvaldo Zotto come through town - why
wouldn't you avail yourself of the opportunity to watch the Best? Great
dancers are inspirational).


The dancers always teach as much as they can, so all-of-a-sudden you have
a few couples doing business with the local scene. Bringing money into it,
too. Studio rentals and all that.

When the big dancers teach, they show fancy things for a variety of
reasons. It's easy for them. It's what they know. It's what they think the
market wants. It's the way it's always been. Etc.

Of course, advanced dancers who love social tango tend not to be a big fan
of this way. We'd like people to see and learn tango tango (instead of
stuff they'll never be able to do unless they want to do shows).

So, I think a lot of teachers who love tango tango have come this way over
the years. There are some fine professional dancers/teachers from the US
and Europe as well as Argentina who bring learners into the close embrace
and show them simply how to move as opposed to "doing things." Showing
them how to actually dance in the ronda instead of thinking and trying
stage dancing.

The nuevo thing I see as a relative of tango por export as regards the
travelling teachers. It's something they perceive as what the market
wants. And as they travel around and do workshops, they are generating
help for the local market.

Local teachers and schools really benefit from this. It's just good
business to bring in teachers, of course.

And naturally, the local teachers tend to teach the same way and things.
That makes sense, too. from their perspective.

So - there has always been a pretty high churn. Lots of people drop out.
Men first. And we all know what that leads to.

The ones who stay and get good usually reach that point about the time
they realize taking classes isn't for them anymore. They just want to go
dancing a lot. And go visit B.A.

This is the core support for local milongas. The people who always come
out and love listening to the music if the dj is good.

The legacy of the way people are introduced to tango has a lasting effect
on the people who never actually get to the point of just dancing and
forgetting learning things you'd actually never do on a crowded dance
floor.

Lot's of bumping and elbows and now feet flying high, etc. Often not great
music flow. People not KNOWING often that the music isn't good; so for
people who can dance, those types are just going through the motions.
Blissfully unaware that things could be better. They haven't been shown.

So the good dancers start staying home more often. This seems to
inevitably happen as time goes by. Then, when they go out to dance because
they miss it, they find the place has a great many people who've recently
started tango all having fun with the same lack of awareness as the last
crop.

I'm doing the dangerous "generalizing" thing. Can't be helped in having a
discussion.

We all have biases. The world is big enough to accommodate them all.

I declare mine: I love the social tango. I love a crowded dance floor. I
love the music and get steamed - because there is SO MUCH GREAT MUSIC -
when dj's play guck or don't have a feel for flow and energy management.

I try to make the heart of the scene beautiful dancing experiences as
opposed to the teaching/churning part others take care of very well.

When I teach, I tell them I'm not "teaching." I want to shut-off the brain
memory and get their muscle memory and emotions turned-on instead. Get
them into a relationship with the music. Have a conversation with each
other inside that. Do it all in harmony with all the other dancers on the
floor.

I show them right away what I was - and most people are - only shown after
they've been dancing a while and take privates: body position and walking
smoothly and rhythmically. It's easier for a person to learn the proper
way once than to always have to keep re-learning in a new way.

Of course, that can mean less money coming in. Which is why I don't do it
as a "business." I personally am not trying to create future income by
feeding things out in little bits so they'll keep coming back. Grading
them so they can go to the "next level" and all that.

Because, in the main, I see that as perpetuation of tango-por-export as
much as anything else.

Just me. I want to communicate the love of the social tango experience.

There's room for people like me, too.

Maybe one day I'll put a video of myself on YouTube. Not likely. I don't
dance for other people. I dance to be in the cocoon with my partner and
the music.

I think a lot of teachers would do well to understand that their students
intuitively are looking for this experience.

The churn happens because something isn't unfolding as they desire
(without being to articulate it).

I wish more tango tango was shown.

More men would stick; more women would have fun.

My sense is that what I describe is happening all around the world. It
might be a bit subterranean; but people who really love tango (not mainly
for business) are always going to move in this direction.

Go for it, guys! Build a local social scene, not a teaching business. Lots
of people will be cheering you on.

Cheers,

Keith Elshaw
ToTANGO.net

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:45:00 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>

Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:

> If a clip of this was shown to those untrained in tango, would they think that

> parts of the dance was modern dance or ballet and not tango?

Personally, I'd think labels are just that: labels. They are necessarily
reductionist in nature (that is their force, as reduction is what makes
us able to simplify the complex world around to process it; but it's
also their weakness), and I think it does reality injustice to attach
*too* much importance to them.

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 05:12:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?

> From: Noughts damian.thompson@gmail.com

>? Curious, where did you see rumba here?? Timing?? Again
> different to Rumba, they did no 'figures', none.... if you can show or
> enlighten us, then that would be great.
>

I'm surprised that you ask but, since you did, let's start with 'underarm turns'
that are common in all latin dances as well as Swing / Rock'n'Roll. But, unlike
tango, these are mostly danced with the couple separated. Wasn't aware that
they were a staple of tango but but this couple do EIGHT including?3 together
at 4.11. Then there's the separation to one-hand hold at 3.30 and taking the lady
off her feet at 4.20. At 5.05, after an u/a turn he ends up backing lady. He does
the same thing at 6.05 and remains backing lady for about 5 seconds. Common
in Rumba but how is tango? At 6.57, after another u/a turn, there's a ladies head-duck.
Salsa dancers will be familiar with this and is now very common in Show-Rumba. The
figure that starts at 6.57 continues until a separation at 7.12 and is very Rumba-like.

Now you could say that 'anything goes' as long as they're dancing to tango music
and, if that's your opinion, fine. But when does it stop being tango and become
something else - modern dance?

Btw, all latin dances have a lot in common and I chose Rumba because it's the
only slow latin dance and is therefore closest in tempo?to the dance in the video.
But, I agree that the timing is very different - just talking about the figures.

Jack

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:58:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?


--- On Mon, 7/27/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Now you could say that 'anything goes' as long as they're
> dancing to tango music and, if that's your opinion, fine. But when does it stop being tango and become something else - modern dance?

That's what I was getting at. I've heard people say too many times that anything goes, that tango is anything you want it to be when it's not really true. Even Mariana recognizes this when she refers to still respecting tango as a cultural legacy, to which Sebastian agrees. Apparently bounds do exist, but what are they? What does it mean to still respect tango as a cultural legacy?

Movements can develop independently in different genres. Perhaps some movements are actually borrowed from modern dance. Fine, then be honest and state so. Some of those movements (ganchos) where he lifts her completely off the floor seem to borrow from ballet. Take a photo still of such a moment, digitize it so that they are both in leotards, and would it look like two ballet dancers in a classic pose? Suppose that was done for some clips. How much can you borrow and still call it tango?

It strikes me that people just aren't willing to verbalize bounds, except for those running the World Tango Championships. As I watch the clip more, I realize that part of the reason this performance reminds me of modern dance or a ballet is all of the posing. They don't strike me as pauses, but as poses. Her ability to dance is taken away for a moment, even ornaments. In pauses, a tension can still exist that she can influence. I don't see that in these lifts.

Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:39:10 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@lowry.com.au>
Subject: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: tango-l@mit.edu


Performance.
John

>
> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:01:06 -0700 (PDT)
> From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
>
> ....................Some of the responses from people seem to be too
> rooted in their own ideas of what they want tango to be. In what
> people have been trained to think. But if you're able to step out
> of that mindset and look at the video objectively, what would you see?
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:22:05 +1000
From: June es <esjune@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>


Dancers of different genres do from time to time extend their boundaries or cross the border. An example of this extension is illustrated by a renowned ballroom dance couple interpreting Piazzolla in both clips below. What does it matter about the "steps" they use when they are true to the music and both feel and fill it with honesty and integrity. To me those qualities define the dance and the dancer. The music is Piazzolla and the dancers moved as instruments participating in Piazzolla's music.



In the second clip the couple extend away from rumba but retain their connection with the music. Love it or hate it, the performance is essentially Piazzolla.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV8P_4F80pw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJc-2KKpNY&feature=related

Use Windows Live Messenger from your Hotmail inbox Web IM has arrived!
https://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id‚3454

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:44:52 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: John Lowry <john@lowry.com.au>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cb8208d0907281444x3eb27b3bq4fc52917167bd0ba@mail.gmail.com>

Simple and to the point.... It will always be different from CE
dancers or Milonguero style...

2009/7/28 John Lowry <john@lowry.com.au>

>
> Performance.
> John
>
> >
> > Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 18:01:06 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
> >
> > ....................Some of the responses from people seem to be too
> > rooted in their own ideas of what they want tango to be. ?In what
> > people have been trained to think. ?But if you're able to step out
> > of that mindset and look at the video objectively, what would you see?
> >
> > Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>

Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>

> From: June es esjune@hotmail.com?

>
> Dancers of different genres do from time to time extend their boundaries or
> cross the border. An example of this extension is illustrated by a renowned
> ballroom dance couple interpreting Piazzolla in both clips below. >
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV8P_4F80pw
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJc-2KKpNY&feature=related
>

Thanks June, I've never seen these videos before. This couple is from Finland,
which probably explains why they were able to incorporate tango elements?in
their dance before any other ballroom couple - at least, as far as I know.

And?they complement Trini's video of Sebastian and Marianna and her question -
when is tango tango and not something else? Perhaps the answer is - it depends
on who's dancing. If a well-known tango couple, such as Sebastian and Marianna
were to dance these routines in the same way, nuevo aficionados?would probably
say it's still Tango, although to me, it's clearly Rumba.
?
Jack

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 08:57:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>


--- On Wed, 7/29/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > From: June es esjune@hotmail.com?
>
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV8P_4F80pw
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WJc-2KKpNY&feature=related

> Thanks June, I've never seen these videos before. This
> couple is from Finland, which probably explains why they were able to incorporate tango elements?in their dance before any other ballroom couple - at least, as far as I know.
>

The first video was particularly interesting with a portion clearly dedicated to tango. And it was obviously tango. If they had incorporated some of Sebastian's & Mariana's moves, instead, I bet folks would say "nice rumba moves" instead of saying "nice tango section".

In response to Damian's comment that S & M's performance was different from milonguero and close-embrace, I'd add that it is also far different from salon, as well. When tango is taken to such an extreme, then why not just say "I have evolved a new dance form that derives from Argentine tango and I'm calling it Tango Nuevo. Anything goes." And I suspect that if Chicho or Sebastian or someone else would declare something like that, all the other nuevo wannabees would nod their heads and follow suite. In fact, they would then have more freedom in interpreting this new form in anyway they want. Traditionalists would then say, "Okay, have fun developing your new form to your hearts content. Knock yourself out." Why should nuevo extremists feel a strong need to still keep the ties to milonguero or salon tango?

If one wants to evolve, there's nothing wrong with evolving into a new dance form. With the current debate, it's almost as if the nuevo dancers are ashamed of their developments. Why always be on the defensive? If you want to evolve, then cut the apron strings and evolve.


Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:22:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?


--- On Wed, 7/29/09, Peter Esser <peterwesser@oregonducks.org> wrote:

> In your post you make a distinction b/w tango salon and
> milonguero style.
>
> What is the difference?
>
> Peter

Hi Peter,

You should first know that there are some people who do not like to use the term "milonguero" to describe a particular style of dance. However, the term is in broad enough use and recognizable enough that I find their protests ineffectual. Dancers who choose to specialize in a particular style develop differently. You can look at this website for a description of different styles.
https://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html

Although I just about always start my students off in milonguero, relatively few men stick with it enough to still feel milonguero. It's more common for my male students to open up a little to accommodate turns and such, so they develop a salon feel and they eventually add in nuevo movements.

I think it's more difficult nowadays for people to understand the difference when they are given so many choices and teachers are trying to appeal to everyone. When I started, there was no choice in the States. There was only salon. When the other styles began to appear, it was much easier to distinguish them and appreciate their particular qualities.

Hope this helps.

Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:35:36 -0500
From: "Alex Long" <alex@tangofuego.us>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>

Hola List!

Wading in here on the tail end, with nothing profound, just one
observation...on the heels of Trini's last message about "cutting the apron
strings"...

It seems the Nuevoists desperately want to call what they do "Tango", when
it looks and must feel less and less like Tango. As do the
blues/fusion/tango folks, the Swango folks, the salsa/tango folks, and the
list goes on. Hell, there might even be some Texas Two-Step/Tango going on
in this neck of the woods. Even the Ballroom world seems to be trying to lay
claim to "Argentine Tango". In the media and the market place, those magical
five letters T-A-N-G-O seem to sell products and services - through imagery
and public perception. The mystery of tango in people's minds carries with
it something very powerful. There's a website [https://www.yourtango.com]
that has absolutely nothing to do with tango the dance, there's a
trucking/transport company, there's a chewing gum, a soft drink, cookies, a
car, software, there used to be an airline, and the list goes on and on. The
bottom line is Tango, the word, sells.

What would Nuevo be without its roots in traditional tango? A beautiful
dance that someone would have to come up with a name for, I suppose.

The Traditionalists/Purists also desperately want to be protective and need
to be possessive of "their" tango. The early roots of tango, its history,
culture, sensuality, beauty, difficulty, and mystery are not aspects to be
taken lightly or disrespected, in the Purist's view. Tango the music. Tango
the dance. Tango the culture. The mystery of tango. They are all one and the
same. If I can speak for other Traditionalists, "Tango Tango"
seems/wants/needs to be protected somehow, so people remember. So some will
always remain true to the roots of Tango. So more will experience the
feeling of the one, the true Tango. Now I'm preaching to the choir.

Anyway, it just struck me a day or so ago - everyone seems to be wanting to
lay claim to "El Tango". For what it's worth, an observation, but also not
wanting to get mired in the Trad v. Nuevo debate...

Also, a special thanks from me to Keith Elshaw for some great observations,
as always, and especially for coining the term "Tango Tango", at least in my
mind.

Alex
https://www.alextangofuego.blogspot.com

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:04:44 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
Cc: tango-L@mit.edu

Alex Long wrote:

> Hola List!
>
> Wading in here on the tail end, with nothing profound, just one
> observation...on the heels of Trini's last message about "cutting the apron
> strings"...
>
> It seems the Nuevoists desperately want to call what they do "Tango", when
> it looks and must feel less and less like Tango. As do the
> blues/fusion/tango folks, the Swango folks, the salsa/tango folks, and the
> list goes on.

You like pigeon holes to put people in, don't you?

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 05:10:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>

> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>
>
>? Why should nuevo extremists feel a strong need
> to still keep the ties to milonguero or salon tango??
>

I don't want to be cynical, but I'm guessing the answer is MONEY.

Most nuevo professionals tour the world and their income is based
on the worldwide craze for Tango, Any admission that it's not really
tango and they'll lose their invitations to tango festivals and tango
teachers will no longer invite them to teach workshops for their
students.

Jack

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 13:29:14 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?

Alexis Cousein wrote: "You like pigeon holes to put people in, don't you?"

Why pigeon hole something Tango when it isn't? Why call anything anything?
Why don't we call it the no-pigeon hole dance and it's practioners no-pigeon
holers? Or is that pigeon-holing it? What a load of pigeon dung. Thank
heavens that in the real world, most of us still call a spade a spade.

Anton



-----Original Message-----

Sent: Thursday, 30 July 2009 8:05 PM
Cc: tango-L@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?

Alex Long wrote:

> Hola List!
>
> Wading in here on the tail end, with nothing profound, just one
> observation...on the heels of Trini's last message about "cutting the

apron

> strings"...
>
> It seems the Nuevoists desperately want to call what they do "Tango", when
> it looks and must feel less and less like Tango. As do the
> blues/fusion/tango folks, the Swango folks, the salsa/tango folks, and the
> list goes on.

You like pigeon holes to put people in, don't you?

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?



--- On Thu, 7/30/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>
> >
> >? Why should nuevo extremists feel a strong need
> > to still keep the ties to milonguero or salon tango??
>
> >
>
> I don't want to be cynical, but I'm guessing the answer is
> MONEY.

I suspect that it's not money. Still it really doesn't make any sense to insist that extreme nuevo is Argentine Tango when the purported intention is to let everyone do his/her artistic interpretation. I suspect that in their heart of hearts, extremists really do have this idea of what tango is/should be but they aren't willing to look at what they are doing and question whether it really fits this idea of tango. They have certainly not defined what bounds they wouldn't cross.

I mean, if extremists insist that what they do is Argentine tango and not something else, then they are automatically putting bounds on themselves, right? Wouldn't that then go against the stated belief that, basically, "anything goes"? Can't have your cake and eat it, too.

This thread reminds of when Reagan kept insisting that he never authorized trading arms for hostages. Eventually, he realized that though his intention was not to trade arms for hostages, that is essentially what happened.

Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 07:51:16 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0907311451m3780b2abl2e04c0f776f1314c@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder why we hypothosis that "Nuevo" is not tango, when it was only
ever an extension of tango and a breakdown of how they danced salon
and then using it in different ways....

Devised, understood and taught by the TANGO MASTERS OF ARGENTINA?

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:12:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?



--- On Fri, 7/31/09, Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:

> I wonder why we hypothosis that
> "Nuevo" is not tango, when it was only
> ever an extension of tango and a breakdown of how they
> danced salon
> and then using it in different ways....

I'm not hypothesizing that Nuevo is not tango. I don't see that it can't be tango the same way Finnish Tango is a type of tango, or International Tango is a type of tango. Why insist that extreme Nuevo is Argentine Tango?

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Chicho et al find their success outside of BsAs? Aside from Piazzolla (who was a New Yorker), isn't there quite a bit of influence from world music? Which again leads us to, why insist that Nuevo is Argentine? Why insist on keeping that tie? Why do nuevo extremists continue to position themselves in a defensive position? Why not really take Nuevo into a more positive direction? Why don't extreme nuevo-ists really just give themselves more freedom if that is what they want? Incorporate those rumba moves if you want without having to defend doing so.

In this digital age, gung-ho nuevo dancers could just set up their own listserv (like Tango-L) and exchange ideas/videos. They don't need the blessing of the "fathers of nuevo". Can't be that hard to recruit people who attend the nuevo festivals.

I also want to be clear about something. I really like Sebastian and Mariana as teachers and dancers. They are lovely people. I really enjoyed their classes in Baltimore a few years ago, and I wish I could go again this year. I had planned to to, but I don't think we can. I wish I could be as creative as those two. But it doesn't make sense to me that such talent would need to limit itself to "Argentine Tango". Why not "World Tango"?

Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 18:44:41 -0700
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0907311844t317e1f30tf0e13ebac95f5cbc@mail.gmail.com>

For me, quite simply because it's not. It's Argentine. Just the
updates to the style are 'new'...

2009/7/31 Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>:

>
>
> --- On Fri, 7/31/09, Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I wonder why we hypothosis that
>> "Nuevo" is not tango, when it was only
>> ever an extension of tango and a breakdown of how they
>> danced salon
>> and then using it in different ways....
>
>
> I'm not hypothesizing that Nuevo is not tango. ?I don't see that it can't be tango the same way Finnish Tango is a type of tango, or International Tango is a type of tango. ?Why insist that extreme Nuevo is Argentine Tango?
>
> Someone correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Chicho et al find their success outside of BsAs? ?Aside from Piazzolla (who was a New Yorker), isn't there quite a bit of influence from world music? ?Which again leads us to, why insist that Nuevo is Argentine? ?Why insist on keeping that tie? ?Why do nuevo extremists continue to position themselves in a defensive position? ?Why not really take Nuevo into a more positive direction? ?Why don't extreme nuevo-ists really just give themselves more freedom if that is what they want? ?Incorporate those rumba moves if you want without having to defend doing so.
>
> In this digital age, gung-ho nuevo dancers could just set up their own listserv (like Tango-L) and exchange ideas/videos. ?They don't need the blessing of the "fathers of nuevo". ?Can't be that hard to recruit people who attend the nuevo festivals.
>
> I also want to be clear about something. ?I really like Sebastian and Mariana as teachers and dancers. ?They are lovely people. ?I really enjoyed their classes in Baltimore a few years ago, and I wish I could go again this year. ?I had planned to to, but I don't think we can. ?I wish I could be as creative as those two. ?But it doesn't make sense to me that such talent would need to limit itself to "Argentine Tango". ?Why not "World Tango"?
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 06:15:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?



--- On Fri, 7/31/09, Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:

> For me, quite simply because it's
> not.? It's Argentine.? Just the
> updates to the style are 'new'...

One could say the same thing about the moves from International, Finnish, or American tango back when those dances were developing. Isn't it possible that the same thing is happening now? If not, where are the bounds?

Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 10:07:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?

> From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com>
>
>
> I'm not hypothesizing that Nuevo is not tango.? I don't see that it can't be
> tango the same way Finnish Tango is a type of tango, or International Tango is a
> type of tango.? Why insist that extreme Nuevo is Argentine Tango?
>

Why can't we think of Nuevo in the same way we think of Milonga, i.e. related,
but a completely different dance to Tango with its own steps, style and music.
After all, Milonga only became part of the 'Tango Trinity' in the 1930s. And, just
as no one dances Milonga to Tango music or Tango to Milonga music, so it
would be with Nuevo. We could then add Nuevo Tandas during milongas.
If people don't like Nuevo, they can just sit out the tanda, just as many do
with Milonga.

Jack

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 13:42:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<60751.65.93.193.148.1249148537.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>


Jack wrote:

"After all, Milonga only became part of the 'Tango Trinity' in the 1930s."

Uh - no.

Milonga pre-dated tango.

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 18:40:45 +0000 (GMT)
From: Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
To: tango-l@mit.edu, keith@totango.net

--- On Sat, 1/8/09, Keith Elshaw <keith@totango.net> wrote:

> From: Keith Elshaw <keith@totango.net>
> Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Date: Saturday, 1 August, 2009, 6:42 PM
>
> Jack wrote:
>
> "After all, Milonga only became part of the 'Tango Trinity'
> in the 1930s."
>
> Uh - no.
>
> Milonga pre-dated tango.

The milonga we dance nowadays [2 beats to the bar, fastish ,as in Milonga sentimental] only goes back to the 30's. The pre-dating one was a slow dirge played by the payadores towards the end on the 19th Century and hardly ever danced to. Piazzolla revived it in the 50's as "Milonga Campera": "Oblivion", "Milonga del angel" &c....True. the milonga campera eventually became more lively & turned into tango - that could be danced.

Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 14:47:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<61098.65.93.193.148.1249152471.squirrel@webmail7.pair.com>

> Milonga pre-dated tango.
>
> The milonga we dance nowadays [2 beats to the bar, fastish ,as in Milonga
> sentimental] only goes back to the 30's. The pre-dating one was a slow
> dirge played by the payadores towards the end on the 19th Century and
> hardly ever danced to. Piazzolla revived it in the 50's as "Milonga
> Campera": "Oblivion", "Milonga del angel" &c....True. the milonga campera
> eventually became more lively & turned into tango - that could be danced.

All the above is, I'm afraid, reproduction of myth and mis-information.

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 2009 15:16:50 -0400
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
To: keith@totango.net
Cc: Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>, tango-l@mit.edu

I agree with Keith... when I studied la musica at the Academia Nacional
del Tango for a few weeks, it was made clear that milonga predated
tango and, btw, was not at all dirge like!!! (where did that come
from???) The great tango guitarist Anibal Arias said it had its roots
in southern Brazil, and had many influences including Cuban habanera
(from sailors), and yes, was in part, spread by the payadores who
brought it to the arrabal (outskirts of city) and played lively versions
on guitar. That's my understanding.

Keith Elshaw wrote:

>>Milonga pre-dated tango.
>>
>>The milonga we dance nowadays [2 beats to the bar, fastish ,as in Milonga
>>sentimental] only goes back to the 30's. The pre-dating one was a slow
>>dirge played by the payadores towards the end on the 19th Century and
>>hardly ever danced to. Piazzolla revived it in the 50's as "Milonga
>>Campera": "Oblivion", "Milonga del angel" &c....True. the milonga campera
>>eventually became more lively & turned into tango - that could be danced.
>>
>>
>
>All the above is, I'm afraid, reproduction of myth and mis-information.
>
>
>
>

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 13:52:29 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>

Keith, note how Andrew says:

"The milonga we dance nowadays"

The milonga from the 19th century was a different music from the
milonga that developed in the 1930s. The roots of tango may have been
the older milonga, but today's (1930s and later) milonga came out of
the tango of the 1920s, not the milonga of the 1890s, which which was
two generations earlier.

In other words the evolutionary tree split in the 1930s. Milonga and
Tango did not go back to the 1890s as two separate musical forms.

If you listen to the music of the 1920s, it is (in general) somewhat
march-like. Some songs feel tango-ish and others feel milonga-ish, and
a lot of them aren't very differentiated as milonga or tango.

In the 1930s, tangos slowed down, added new musical elements, and
developed along the de Darean (slower) and d'Arienzean (rhythmic) paths.

In the 1930s, milongas sped up and had candombe and african-ish
rhythms and lyrics added. The lyrics were full of this nostalgia for
the good old days when black people lived in San Telmo, and danced
under the torches.

Are there examples of milonga candombera from the 1910s and 1920s? I'm
going to assume we could find 1920s examples of canbombe in Uruguaya,
but I'm not sure if these were part of the tango experience or whether
they stayed with the african communities and carnivals of Uruguay.

Our enjoyment of milonga is sort of "double nostalgia".

I guess, all this discussion is "meta milonga.


On Aug 1, 2009, at 12:47 PM, Keith Elshaw wrote:

>> Milonga pre-dated tango.
>>
>> The milonga we dance nowadays [2 beats to the bar, fastish ,as in
>> Milonga
>> sentimental] only goes back to the 30's. The pre-dating one was a
>> slow
>> dirge played by the payadores towards the end on the 19th Century and
>> hardly ever danced to. Piazzolla revived it in the 50's as "Milonga
>> Campera": "Oblivion", "Milonga del angel" &c....True. the milonga
>> campera
>> eventually became more lively & turned into tango - that could be
>> danced.
>
> All the above is, I'm afraid, reproduction of myth and mis-
> information.
>

Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
Denver, CO 80207

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 20:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga


----- Original Message ----

>
> I agree with Keith... when I studied la musica at the Academia Nacional
> del Tango for a few weeks,? it was made clear that milonga predated
> tango >

I was talking about dance, not music and I agree wth Andrew. Yes, milonga
music predated tango but it was not for dancing. It was for guitar and singing.

The Milongas dance as we know it?dates from the early-30s, IMHO.

Jack

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2009 20:51:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think? Milonga
To: tango-l@mit.edu


----- Original Message ----

> From: Keith Elshaw <keith@totango.net>
>
> All the above is, I'm afraid, reproduction of myth and mis-information.
>

Thanks Keith; I suppose you were there?

Jack

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2009 07:07:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What Do You Think?


--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Vince Bagusauskas <vytis@hotmail.com> wrote:
Interesting question on what is Argentine tango.? Reminds me of some of the guiding principles of an Australian tango club:

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Which tango?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1. The Club's primary focus is on participatory Argentine
social tango.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2. The Club recognises that the definition of Argentine
tango is contested, and will change over time.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3. The Club recognises the importance of tango as a
performance medium, and the fusions with other dance and theatre forms that this involves; but does not devote its resources to working in this area except to attract people.


Vince, I like this! I was thinking whether I should finally state my own principles, which could help guide newbies in an appropriate direction for them. The event that has kept us grounded here for many years is an annual demonstration that the tango community puts on for a big Latin American & Caribbean Festival. We represent an Argentine Tango community to Latins, and none of us are Argentine. We can't go in with the stereotypical American brashness of "this is how we dance and it IS Argentine Tango". It's easy to impress beginners or non-experts, but that's not who we're trying to impress when we perform at this festival because we're also representing them.

Jack, I agree with thinking of Nuevo as part of the family of tango. Using separate tandas in the same way we do milonga and vals is, I think, how most people incorporate it in milongas. I've noticed that people (not just me) bring out the nuevo steps largely during those times and not when traditional music is being played. I think this shows a clear distinction that the average dancer makes. It's the average dancer that eventually defines tango, not the pioneers.

When nuevo dancers present that their way of evolving the dance is the only way (and that is the impression they give), I don't think they are being accurate. There is so much out there with regular salon and so much to explore in the 70 years of dancing that it seems ludicrous that nuevo is the only wave of the future. The other day, an excellent and experienced dancer returned from a vacation with new steps to play with, stuff I hadn't seen in 15 years of dancing. And they had a salon feel. So much to still explore in tango tango.

I think traditionalists wouldn't be so down on nuevo dancers if the nuevo movement recognized themselves as one way of developing the form, and not THE way of evolving tango.


Trini de Pittsburgh

P.S. I'm also enjoying the discussion on milonga.

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 2009 17:52:17 +0000
From: jb34528@att.net
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<080220091752.615.4A75D25100056E0E0000026722193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBFC8CDCACBCC0D06@att.net>


Sorry, a little late - the milonga became the rage right now.
On the video now so widely discussed sebastian and Mariana dance a beautiful Argentine tango. Perhaps a little more performance oriented. And they may be moving the bounds. The year is 2009. Tango has been evolving and they are on the cutting edge. I wish I could dance like that!
Here is a parable: The Ford model T was an automobile that started it all and changed the world. Now you inspect a shiny new Chevy ? No running boards!, the wheels? ? where are the beautifully crafted hardwood spokes? And so on. The conclusion: ?This is not an automobile ? it is something different and it should have a different name!? BTW, tango is older than the model T.
Nuevo? The good ?nuevo dancers? dance anything from the close embrace club style to ?nuevo? based on their mood and available space. I.e., they dance tango.
For example, M & S did an underarm turn ? they did it ?tango like? IMHO. Underarm turn is done in many dances. And none has an exclusive license for it. As a matter of fact, we should feel left behind and disappointed that the stubborn insistence on ?true tango" traditions left the field open for salseros, lindy hoppers and others to discover all those cool moves! ;-)
I took a number of classes from Sebastian and Mariana and believe that what they teach and dance is tango. The ?non nuevo?, especially its most conservative forms should be called historical tango. And a dance event imposing the conservative limits should be called historical milonga. This might be hard to take for those who made an emotional investment at the time of their initial indoctrination and never got over it.
Jan

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 07:51:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?


--- On Sun, 8/2/09, jb34528@att.net <jb34528@att.net> wrote:
The good ?nuevo dancers? dance anything from the

> close embrace club style to ?nuevo? based on their mood
> and available space. I.e., they dance tango.
> For example, M & S did an underarm turn ? they did it
> ?tango like? IMHO.

One or two underarm turns is okay for a little seasoning. But 8? 16? 101? How about the whole dance? At that point, why not call it another dance since the character of the dance changes?

There's an argument that Argentines are not as nostalgic now, so the dance should also become happier. If I wanted happy, I'd do milonga or vals. I like the nostalgic, sadder, more introspective feeling of tango tango. Why does this nostalgic feeling need to evolve into something happier? As if, these sadder feeling are going to evolve out of existence? A friend passes away. I play Milonga Triste and dance out my sadness.

> I took a number of classes from Sebastian and Mariana and
> believe that what they teach and dance is tango. The
> ?non? nuevo?, especially its most conservative
> forms should be called historical tango. And a dance event
> imposing the conservative limits should be called historical
> milonga. This might be hard to take for those who made an
> emotional investment at the time of their initial
> indoctrination and never got over it.

I disagree with that. Traditionalists don't stick with the "old style" because that's just the way it's been done for a hundred years more or less. They stick with it because they like how it feels, this particular type connection. Nuevo practitioners like another type of connection, but clearly their interest lies more in geometric forms and possibilities. That's okay but it changes the character of the dance. So why not call it something else?

Traditionalists aren't bothered by setting certain bounds, even if those bounds are unspecified. Nuevo dancers do seem bothered by bounds, apparently. That's a significant difference. If nuevo dancers aren't willing to set bounds, then evolve it into something else.

Trini de Pittsburgh

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 14:34:21 -0600
From: "Brian Dunn" <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?

> The good ?nuevo dancers? dance anything from the
> close embrace club style to ?nuevo? based on their mood
> and available space. I.e., they dance tango.

What do you call someone who can speak, read and write English, Japanese, Swahili, and Russian with clarity, precision and humor in all languages? In other words, they can improvise successfully in all of them? I would call them a "language expert".

Here in Colorado, if someone can only ski or snowboard on the groomed, flat slopes, we call them a "beginner". When they can handle steeper slopes, we call them "intermediate", and when they can take on ANYTHING with confidence and grace, we call them "advanced/expert".

What do you call someone who can dance "milonguero", "salon", and "nuevo", with connection, expression and musicality, varying how they dance with the partner, the music, and the setting?
The excellent young social tango dancers I've met in Buenos Aires can dance social tango to any music under any conditions, with heartbreakingly memorable connection and breathtaking musicality, expressing themselves fully and appropriately within the "boundaries" of the tango environment of the moment. Although I am primarily interested in the man's role, I've had the opportunity of following some of them myself. I have also benefitted from reading evaluations of many of these dancers from their partners in our workshops. The opinions expressed by these very experienced customers, ten- and fifteen-year dancers, when they speak of the dance encounters they have with these leaders, have "raised the bar" in my view when it comes to discussing what is possible in a social tango embrace. I would call them "good social tango dancers".

Philosopher-author Ken Wilber spends his time querying the world-class experts in widely varying disciplines, seeking out the kernels of "truth" that their life's work has led them to discover. One of his rules of thumb is "Pay lots of attention to the opinions of world-class experts when they discuss their own area of expertise, and routinely ignore them when they express opinions in areas in which they have no expertise". Lately we've heard lots of critique of the aesthetic choices of some good social tango dancers on "style" grounds, and I fear we are hearing a lot of people speaking outside their area of expertise without taking responsibility for doing so (imagine that! ;) ).

One of my tango teachers once said, "If there is something you cannot accomplish with your current skill level, and you tell yourself you are *choosing* not to perform it for *style* reasons, then to be truly honest you are not really making a choice."

There have always been good social tango dancers - in crowded milongas, in tango/vals/milonga/whatever, in spacious practicas. We all want good dances, right? The really good dancers are the ones everyone wants to dance with, no matter what the music, no matter what the floor conditions. If we are honest with ourselves, at some level, we envy them a little bit their universal desirability at the milonga, right? I suggest that we all know this is true, and it transcends "style" discussions. If you don't know what I'm talking about, I suggest you probably need to be more honest with yourself, or you probably need to get out more.

Similarly, there have always been social tango dancers who will be good someday if they keep working. And there are social tango dancers who don't want to work anymore to be better. There's nothing wrong with this, of course - life is short, and everyone invests their time, energy and money as best they can in pursuit of tango happiness. We're fortunate that we've all chosen a personal art form where there is so much happiness available at every skill level.

Yet in this thread we hear so much of "why don't they just stop calling it tango?" as if the point is to eliminate the good social tango dancers because they "speak more languages" than me.

In a social art form such as tango, we may well consider that someone's skill level and "language facility" might have significant bearing on the worth of their opinions, especially if they relentlessly and routinely criticize the "style choices" of others. Something along the lines of "If THEY can do what I do, but I can't do what THEY do, maybe I should just shut up and dance". After all, isn't it a lot easier for me to "lower the bar" to my current level, using "style" as a weapon of exclusion to eliminate my rivals, rather than to take on the work of improving my social tango to the point where everyone at the milonga always wants to dance with ME?

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 13:52:10 -0700
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: brian@danceoftheheart.com
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0908031352i40887c79t4b76602b53ef6eb7@mail.gmail.com>

Brian, may I quote you on that?

I really fully believe all should re-read this and think... I use an
analogy of the Windows operating system.. but this, this is soo much
better.

2009/8/3 Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>

>
> > The good ?nuevo dancers? dance anything from the
> > close embrace club style to ?nuevo? based on their mood
> > and available space. I.e., they dance tango.
>
> What do you call someone who can speak, read and write English, Japanese, Swahili, and Russian with clarity, precision and humor in all languages? In other words, they can improvise successfully in all of them? I would call them a "language expert".
>
> Here in Colorado, if someone can only ski or snowboard on the groomed, flat slopes, we call them a "beginner". ?When they can handle steeper slopes, we call them "intermediate", and when they can take on ANYTHING with confidence and grace, we call them "advanced/expert".
>
> What do you call someone who can dance "milonguero", "salon", and "nuevo", with connection, expression and musicality, varying how they dance with the partner, the music, and the setting?
> The excellent young social tango dancers I've met in Buenos Aires can dance social tango to any music under any conditions, with heartbreakingly memorable connection and breathtaking musicality, expressing themselves fully and appropriately within the "boundaries" of the tango environment of the moment. ?Although I am primarily interested in the man's role, I've had the opportunity of following some of them myself. ?I have also benefitted from reading evaluations of many of these dancers from their partners in our workshops. The opinions expressed by these very experienced customers, ten- and fifteen-year dancers, when they speak of the dance encounters they have with these leaders, have "raised the bar" in my view when it comes to discussing what is possible in a social tango embrace. ?I would call them "good social tango dancers".
>
> Philosopher-author Ken Wilber spends his time querying the world-class experts in widely varying disciplines, seeking out the kernels of "truth" that their life's work has led them to discover. ?One of his rules of thumb is "Pay lots of attention to the opinions of world-class experts when they discuss their own area of expertise, and routinely ignore them when they express opinions in areas in which they have no expertise". ?Lately we've heard lots of critique of the aesthetic choices of some good social tango dancers on "style" grounds, ?and I fear we are hearing a lot of people speaking outside their area of expertise without taking responsibility for doing so (imagine that! ;) ).
>
> One of my tango teachers once said, "If there is something you cannot accomplish with your current skill level, and you tell yourself you are *choosing* not to perform it for *style* reasons, then to be truly honest you are not really making a choice."
>
> There have always been good social tango dancers - in crowded milongas, in tango/vals/milonga/whatever, in spacious practicas. We all want good dances, right? The really good dancers are the ones everyone wants to dance with, no matter what the music, no matter what the floor conditions. ?If we are honest with ourselves, at some level, we envy them a little bit their universal desirability at the milonga, right? ?I suggest that we all know this is true, and it transcends "style" discussions. ?If you don't know what I'm talking about, I suggest you probably need to be more honest with yourself, or you probably need to get out more.
>
> Similarly, there have always been social tango dancers who will be good someday if they keep working. And there are social tango dancers who don't want to work anymore to be better. ?There's nothing wrong with this, of course - life is short, and everyone invests their time, energy and money as best they can in pursuit of tango happiness. ?We're fortunate that we've all chosen a personal art form where there is so much happiness available at every skill level.
>
> Yet in this thread we hear so much of "why don't they just stop calling it tango?" as if the point is to eliminate the good social tango dancers because they "speak more languages" than me.
>
> In a social art form such as tango, we may well consider that someone's skill level and "language facility" might have significant bearing on the worth of their opinions, especially if they relentlessly and routinely criticize the "style choices" of others. ?Something along the lines of "If THEY can do what I do, but I can't do what THEY do, maybe I should just shut up and dance". ?After all, isn't it a lot easier for me to "lower the bar" to my current level, using "style" as a weapon of exclusion to eliminate my rivals, rather than to take on the work of improving my social tango to the point where everyone at the milonga always wants to dance with ME?
>
> All the best,
> Brian Dunn
> Dance of the Heart
> www.danceoftheheart.com
> "Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"
>
>

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:59:47 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?

I have no issue with the views of Brian Dunn. But in my opinion, it's not dealing with the fundamental problem facing many of us.
I believe a milonga is a venue of social dance, not a forum for experts. In most fields including sports, experts interact with their peers in an environment of equality. When they engage people on a social level, they generally accommodate the lower level of expertise, or risk being labelled an exhibitionist or "show-off". Brian pays tribute to the civility of the young expert dancers of BA with " expressing themselves fully and appropriately within the "boundaries" of the tango environment of the moment." The thing is, that in BA they can also exercise their superior skills by choosing to attend a milonga suitable to their level of expertise. There's probably in excess of 15 milongas on any day of the week from which to choose. In Buenos Aires I select a milonga which plays the style of music I prefer, the style of dancing with which I'm comfortable and an ambience that arouses me. Sadly, for most of us, this isn't the case in our own Cities. Usually there's a clash of cul!
tures, music preferences and dance styles. I imagine that practically no one gets what they want. Especially the new-to-tango beginner, whose couple of lessons have illustrated to him/her that after 30 or 40 years of moving themselves around the planet, they haven't mastered the art of walking yet. How do they feel dancing shoulder to shoulder with an expert demonstrating the high end of expertise? I can feel totally competent in a very crowded BA milonga of my choosing, without that peculiar, residual feeling of having to dance for the audience, when I get back to the open spaces of the milongas back home.
Whilst I have a layman's interest in things science, I think I would fall asleep during a experts' discourse on quantum theory. Much the same goes for any discussion I have in any other language than English. Intellectually, I'm more akin to a door-stop. Yet I'm sensitive enough to know when I'm made to feel inferior. And I'm fairly certain dancing was never meant to be an intellectual exercise anyway. So I'm not altogether sure an expert's opinion really matters much. In my opinion the essence of dancing is feeling and we're all pretty well experts at that. No one can raise that bar for us.

Just my opinion
Anton

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 21:47:47 +1000
From: "Vince Bagusauskas" <vytis@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Brian,

>"Pay lots of attention to the opinions of world-class experts when they
>discuss their own area of expertise, and routinely ignore them when they
>express opinions in areas in which they have no expertise". Lately we've
>heard lots of critique of the aesthetic choices of some good social tango
>dancers on "style" grounds,

You speak of different tangos and seem to suggest that just because
someone is a real and talented expert in several different tango forms that
the average social
dancer should just bow down to these experts and we should bask in their
greatness and cater for their needs? I disagree.

>Yet in this thread we hear so much of "why don't they just stop calling it
>tango?"

What you seem to dismiss, is that many people on this list, who have danced
many
many more years than me and are expert at it, love a particular form of
tango and the
traditions that go with them. That is all they are asking. If you want to
go to a nuevo tango styled
event (eg Practica X) then find one and go for it. If however, the
organiser promotes their event as a traditional Argentine tango
event where ganchos, leaps, and raising the leg above the knee line is
strictly prohibited, then the nuevo reformists should respect the
boundaries. Where I came from, there are tango events catering for the
nuevo dancers and one had the freedom to go there if social tango was not
for them. While you would think this would keep everyone happy, it was
always the nuevo dancers who pushed the envelope trying to get their way.

>The really good dancers are the ones everyone wants to dance with, ......
>we envy them a little bit their universal desirability at the milonga,
>?right?

You also talked about an envious factor. I guess all dancers want to be
popular, but sometimes humility gets shunted aside. As an example, in my
salsa days a work
colleague of mine had a placing in the Australian salsa championships. If
not for an old torn knee ligament injury he may have won. He said to me
once "I know
how good a dancer I am, because of all of the girls lining up to dance
with me." Obviously to my eyes many women get a buzz from such a
testosterone filled attitude and wanted to dance with the best. But my
reaction to this was somewhat different.

V

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 00:46:18 -0400
From: Shahrukh Merchant <shahrukh@shahrukhmerchant.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?

Brian Dunn says:

> What do you call someone who can speak, read and write English, Japanese, Swahili, and Russian with clarity, precision and humor in all languages? In other words, they can improvise successfully in all of them? I would call them a "language expert".

Nice post, Brian. Gave me lots of food for thought. Thanks.

However, I tend to identify with the "rebuttal" sentiments of Vince and
Anton.

Yes, those who can dance with ease, grace, technical ability and
musicality all the mainstream style of Tango are to be admired, perhaps
even envied. However, these people are few and far between. When you add
in the appropriate social graces to be popular as dance partners, the
field is narrowed further, and when you add in the humility necessary
for these "superstars" to fit into a social environment where they are
not abusing their skills to the detriment of the enjoyment of others,
it's a statistically insignificant number. Yes, they probably exist, and
are well-deserving of their what I would assume to be their high
popularity, but these "Tango Gods" (not self-proclaimed, of which there
is no shortage) are too few to affect most communities.

Similarly, the phenomenon of "sour grapes" that you allude to
(criticizing someone's style because one has not mastered it oneself)
undoubtedly exists, but I really don't think is a mainstream phenomenon.
As Vince says, perhaps they just "love a particular form of tango and
the traditions that go with them."

So, to use your language metaphor, it's not that people criticize the
true (and very, very rare) polyglots our of envy, but rather it's the
person who just learned Japanese (for example) and thinks he's a hotshot
because he speaks more Japanese than the others in the room (even though
his English, which is his native language, is awful), and imposes
himself upon the francophones (let's say), pours soy sauce into their
Bordeaux, and calls them close-minded because they never really wanted
to drink their wine that way and seem disinclined to change their views,
whom they have the problem with.

> The excellent young social tango dancers I've met in Buenos Aires can dance social tango to any music under any conditions, with heartbreakingly memorable connection and breathtaking musicality, expressing themselves fully and appropriately within the "boundaries" of the tango environment of the moment.

But how do they function in a social setting? Can they make their
partner feel good without being an annoyance to the rest of the people
on the floor around them? Yes, some can and do, but many many of the
"hotshots" have not developed these "social graces" (that would be the
polite version), and it is unforgiveable in their case since they have
more than sufficient technical skills to be able to do so and should be
very cognizant of what the social environment calls for. Perhaps it's
because they are almost always professionals and often feel that they
need to stand out to the crowd (especially if they are young and not
necessarily established, even if they are talented). This for me takes
them closer to my definition of a performance dancer (who dances for
everyone else EXCEPT his partner) rather than a social dancer (who
dances primarily for his partner, while also respectful of the others
with whom he is sharing the floor).

> Philosopher-author Ken Wilber [says] ... "Pay lots of attention to the opinions of world-class experts when they discuss their own area of expertise, and routinely ignore them when they express opinions in areas in which they have no expertise"

Problem is that unlike, let's say, a sport like swimming, where someone
who can swim 100 m faster than anyone else is by definition an expert,
there is no accepted definition of expert in Tango. Very often, good
marketing gets someone perceived as much more of an expert than he
really is, and experts in one style are often scorned (perhaps
close-mindedly, but who's to say?) by proponents of a different style.
And Tango has more than its share of self-proclaimed experts. This is
not to say that there aren't true Tango experts--clearly there are in a
consensus sense. But identifying them, especially in the context of what
is important to oneself (leaving aside the additional complication of
what SHOULD BE important to oneself), is problematic at best.

Also, true experts tend to be multi-disciplinary and, as long as their
claimed knowledge is not contaminated by arrogance, exhibit expertise in
other fields that are not obviously related to the one which brought
them their current renown. So I for one (or "for two," I guess, since
Vince apparently agrees with me) would reject Mr. Wilber's thesis, at
least in its generality.

> The really good dancers are the ones everyone wants to dance with, no matter what the music, no matter what the floor conditions.

I disagree: At least referring to the men, the really good SOCIAL
dancers are the ones whom everyone would like to SHARE THE FLOOR WITH
(including, of course, but NOT LIMITED TO, his partner).

Shahrukh

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 15:18:42 +1000
From: Roger Edgecombe <edgecombe_r@optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What do you think?
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I have to take exception to what Mr. Merchant wrote.

tt's articulate, well-reasoned, and fair. Quite against the spirit of
Tango_L.

I'm going to have to report him to the moderator.

rde