3900 What Is a Milonga?
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:33:54 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: What Is a Milonga?
Hi Everyone:
I am on the horns of a dilemma. What separates a milonga from another
dance event?
Within my website, I maintain a webpage that lists tango activities in
Dallas
https://www.tejastango.com/tango_dallas.html
I have generally tried to keep the website up-to-date and list all
activities regardless of my opinion about a particular milonga or teacher.
I had generally adhered to the philosophy that the market, not the
information, will determine whether an event will be successful.
Earlier in the year, a few people in the community organized a series of
Thursday night milongas that were held in a changing roster of
restaurants, art galleries and museums where the dancers got second-class
treatment and attendance was poor. Eventually these milongas were
cancelled. Many people commented to me that these events might not really
be milongas and that maybe I shouldn't have listed them. They said the
events likely wouldn't have even been able to exist without the listing
and that someone who was visiting from another city would come away with a
false impression of the Dallas tango community if they were to attend one
of these Thursday events.
More recently, someone in the area has introduced a Sunday afternoon
"Tango and Tea Dance," and one of his friends has asked me to list the
three-hour event as a milonga. The organizer is not well-regarded as a
tango dancer and has previously shown an inability to distinguish
Argentine tango music from ballroom tango music. He intends to play tango
at his dance only in proportion to the number of tango dancers who show
up. For instance, if 20 ballroom dancers and 10 tango dancers show up,
two-thirds of music will be ballroom. In the discussion I had with the
organizer's friend about whether I should list this event as a milonga, I
was told by the friend that not listing the event will guarantee that it
will never become a milonga.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:04:53 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Hi Steve,
The rotating venue milongas should be listed if they are intended to be
milongas. I understand your reluctance to list an event that you consider
under par, but to be fair and honest, they should be listed, perhaps with a
caveat..... As far as the ballroom dance with AT thrown in, I would not list
it as a milonga unless it really became one.
my $.02
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
>Reply-To: Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] What Is a Milonga?
>Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:33:54 -0500
>
>Hi Everyone:
>
>I am on the horns of a dilemma. What separates a milonga from another
>dance event?
>
>Within my website, I maintain a webpage that lists tango activities in
>Dallas
>https://www.tejastango.com/tango_dallas.html
>
>I have generally tried to keep the website up-to-date and list all
>activities regardless of my opinion about a particular milonga or teacher.
> I had generally adhered to the philosophy that the market, not the
>information, will determine whether an event will be successful.
>
>Earlier in the year, a few people in the community organized a series of
>Thursday night milongas that were held in a changing roster of
>restaurants, art galleries and museums where the dancers got second-class
>treatment and attendance was poor. Eventually these milongas were
>cancelled. Many people commented to me that these events might not really
>be milongas and that maybe I shouldn't have listed them. They said the
>events likely wouldn't have even been able to exist without the listing
>and that someone who was visiting from another city would come away with a
>false impression of the Dallas tango community if they were to attend one
>of these Thursday events.
>
>More recently, someone in the area has introduced a Sunday afternoon
>"Tango and Tea Dance," and one of his friends has asked me to list the
>three-hour event as a milonga. The organizer is not well-regarded as a
>tango dancer and has previously shown an inability to distinguish
>Argentine tango music from ballroom tango music. He intends to play tango
>at his dance only in proportion to the number of tango dancers who show
>up. For instance, if 20 ballroom dancers and 10 tango dancers show up,
>two-thirds of music will be ballroom. In the discussion I had with the
>organizer's friend about whether I should list this event as a milonga, I
>was told by the friend that not listing the event will guarantee that it
>will never become a milonga.
>
>With best regards,
>Steve
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:11:42 -0400
From: Ronda Patino <rondap@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
He is trying to decide what is the critera for a milonga...more than whether
to list it, and also realizing that he has the power to make or break these
events...I guess there is the option to list some features.. But for sure
this is the risk of "generic advertising"
Anyway, the less you get involve from here, the better...
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 1:05 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] What Is a Milonga?
Hi Steve,
The rotating venue milongas should be listed if they are intended to be
milongas. I understand your reluctance to list an event that you consider
under par, but to be fair and honest, they should be listed, perhaps with a
caveat..... As far as the ballroom dance with AT thrown in, I would not list
it as a milonga unless it really became one.
my $.02
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
>Reply-To: Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] What Is a Milonga?
>Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:33:54 -0500
>
>Hi Everyone:
>
>I am on the horns of a dilemma. What separates a milonga from another
>dance event?
>
>Within my website, I maintain a webpage that lists tango activities in
>Dallas https://www.tejastango.com/tango_dallas.html
>
>I have generally tried to keep the website up-to-date and list all
>activities regardless of my opinion about a particular milonga or
>teacher.
> I had generally adhered to the philosophy that the market, not the
>information, will determine whether an event will be successful.
>
>Earlier in the year, a few people in the community organized a series
>of Thursday night milongas that were held in a changing roster of
>restaurants, art galleries and museums where the dancers got
>second-class treatment and attendance was poor. Eventually these
>milongas were cancelled. Many people commented to me that these events
>might not really be milongas and that maybe I shouldn't have listed
>them. They said the events likely wouldn't have even been able to
>exist without the listing and that someone who was visiting from
>another city would come away with a false impression of the Dallas
>tango community if they were to attend one of these Thursday events.
>
>More recently, someone in the area has introduced a Sunday afternoon
>"Tango and Tea Dance," and one of his friends has asked me to list the
>three-hour event as a milonga. The organizer is not well-regarded as a
>tango dancer and has previously shown an inability to distinguish
>Argentine tango music from ballroom tango music. He intends to play
>tango at his dance only in proportion to the number of tango dancers
>who show up. For instance, if 20 ballroom dancers and 10 tango dancers
>show up, two-thirds of music will be ballroom. In the discussion I had
>with the organizer's friend about whether I should list this event as a
>milonga, I was told by the friend that not listing the event will
>guarantee that it will never become a milonga.
>
>With best regards,
>Steve
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:14:06 -0400
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Steve,
What's in name?
During the summer Swing Nights at Lincoln Center, NY I danced every evening
Tango in the rhythm of the day, to my huge satisfaction and once to the
applause of a bunch of Argentines.
Danced Tango at at a celebration to Big Band sound, on an emptied, (without
requesting) floor, then an elderly guy came to us with tears in his eyes
complimenting us, saying that our "Peabody" dance has been as good as his
father's. First time I ever heard about the Peabody!
Argentine Tango is versatile!
I wouldn't be orthodox in your place, keep the name of the event and let
each one dance whatever they fancy to whatever music is playing. Maybe
you'll get some new Argentinian Tango recruits, and who knows, maybe you'll
change the name of your own Milongas to Tango & Tea Party?
Seth :-)
On 10/21/05, Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Everyone:
>
> I am on the horns of a dilemma. What separates a milonga from another
> dance event?
>
> Within my website, I maintain a webpage that lists tango activities in
> Dallas
> https://www.tejastango.com/tango_dallas.html
>
> I have generally tried to keep the website up-to-date and list all
> activities regardless of my opinion about a particular milonga or teacher.
> I had generally adhered to the philosophy that the market, not the
> information, will determine whether an event will be successful.
>
> Earlier in the year, a few people in the community organized a series of
> Thursday night milongas that were held in a changing roster of
> restaurants, art galleries and museums where the dancers got second-class
> treatment and attendance was poor. Eventually these milongas were
> cancelled. Many people commented to me that these events might not really
> be milongas and that maybe I shouldn't have listed them. They said the
> events likely wouldn't have even been able to exist without the listing
> and that someone who was visiting from another city would come away with a
> false impression of the Dallas tango community if they were to attend one
> of these Thursday events.
>
> More recently, someone in the area has introduced a Sunday afternoon
> "Tango and Tea Dance," and one of his friends has asked me to list the
> three-hour event as a milonga. The organizer is not well-regarded as a
> tango dancer and has previously shown an inability to distinguish
> Argentine tango music from ballroom tango music. He intends to play tango
> at his dance only in proportion to the number of tango dancers who show
> up. For instance, if 20 ballroom dancers and 10 tango dancers show up,
> two-thirds of music will be ballroom. In the discussion I had with the
> organizer's friend about whether I should list this event as a milonga, I
> was told by the friend that not listing the event will guarantee that it
> will never become a milonga.
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:28:58 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
I think the question is not "what is a milonga?" but rather "what do I
want to support in my community?" You have a big presence in Dallas and
the tango community in general, and I think people consider you
something of an authority. By listing the event on your site, you are
providing legitimacy to the idiot running it and tacit approval of his
his approach. Please don't.
We have exactly the same situation here in Bellingham - exactly. I
refuse to list or even mention the event. It's sponsored by the local
chapter of Dance USA, and they call it a "milonga," but they're playing
"Hernando's Hideaway", no tandas, no ronda, and what they're dancing
defies description. My dance and teaching partner Marjorie gets
physically nauseous whenever I even mention it.
Michael
Tango Bellingham
Stephen Brown wrote:
> Hi Everyone:
>
> I am on the horns of a dilemma. What separates a milonga from another
> dance event?
>
> Within my website, I maintain a webpage that lists tango activities in
> Dallas
> https://www.tejastango.com/tango_dallas.html
>
> I have generally tried to keep the website up-to-date and list all
> activities regardless of my opinion about a particular milonga or teacher.
> I had generally adhered to the philosophy that the market, not the
> information, will determine whether an event will be successful.
>
> Earlier in the year, a few people in the community organized a series of
> Thursday night milongas that were held in a changing roster of
> restaurants, art galleries and museums where the dancers got second-class
> treatment and attendance was poor. Eventually these milongas were
> cancelled. Many people commented to me that these events might not really
> be milongas and that maybe I shouldn't have listed them. They said the
> events likely wouldn't have even been able to exist without the listing
> and that someone who was visiting from another city would come away with a
> false impression of the Dallas tango community if they were to attend one
> of these Thursday events.
>
> More recently, someone in the area has introduced a Sunday afternoon
> "Tango and Tea Dance," and one of his friends has asked me to list the
> three-hour event as a milonga. The organizer is not well-regarded as a
> tango dancer and has previously shown an inability to distinguish
> Argentine tango music from ballroom tango music. He intends to play tango
> at his dance only in proportion to the number of tango dancers who show
> up. For instance, if 20 ballroom dancers and 10 tango dancers show up,
> two-thirds of music will be ballroom. In the discussion I had with the
> organizer's friend about whether I should list this event as a milonga, I
> was told by the friend that not listing the event will guarantee that it
> will never become a milonga.
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:16:41 -0400
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@OLM1.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Steven...
I agree with Manuel... There is no gray. :-)
Floyd
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:04:53 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi Steve,
>
>The rotating venue milongas should be listed if they are intended to be
>milongas. I understand your reluctance to list an event that you consider
>under par, but to be fair and honest, they should be listed, perhaps with a
>caveat..... As far as the ballroom dance with AT thrown in, I would not list
>it as a milonga unless it really became one.
>
>my $.02
>
>Manuel
>
>
>
>visit our webpage
>www.tango-rio.com
>
>
>
>
>>From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
>>Reply-To: Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG
>>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>>Subject: [TANGO-L] What Is a Milonga?
>>Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:33:54 -0500
>>
>>Hi Everyone:
>>
>>I am on the horns of a dilemma. What separates a milonga from another
>>dance event?
>>
>>Within my website, I maintain a webpage that lists tango activities in
>>Dallas
>>https://www.tejastango.com/tango_dallas.html
>>
>>I have generally tried to keep the website up-to-date and list all
>>activities regardless of my opinion about a particular milonga or teacher.
>> I had generally adhered to the philosophy that the market, not the
>>information, will determine whether an event will be successful.
>>
>>Earlier in the year, a few people in the community organized a series of
>>Thursday night milongas that were held in a changing roster of
>>restaurants, art galleries and museums where the dancers got second-class
>>treatment and attendance was poor. Eventually these milongas were
>>cancelled. Many people commented to me that these events might not really
>>be milongas and that maybe I shouldn't have listed them. They said the
>>events likely wouldn't have even been able to exist without the listing
>>and that someone who was visiting from another city would come away with a
>>false impression of the Dallas tango community if they were to attend one
>>of these Thursday events.
>>
>>More recently, someone in the area has introduced a Sunday afternoon
>>"Tango and Tea Dance," and one of his friends has asked me to list the
>>three-hour event as a milonga. The organizer is not well-regarded as a
>>tango dancer and has previously shown an inability to distinguish
>>Argentine tango music from ballroom tango music. He intends to play tango
>>at his dance only in proportion to the number of tango dancers who show
>>up. For instance, if 20 ballroom dancers and 10 tango dancers show up,
>>two-thirds of music will be ballroom. In the discussion I had with the
>>organizer's friend about whether I should list this event as a milonga, I
>>was told by the friend that not listing the event will guarantee that it
>>will never become a milonga.
>>
>>With best regards,
>>Steve
Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.olm1.com/~wny/tango * * * * *
---
This has been scanned by the onlinemedia.net Barracuda Spam/Virus Firewall
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:17:34 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Hi Steve
About that travelling milonga that died, well I think you did the right thing listing it. It died in spite of your listing, nobody can say it was because of it.
You should probably also list this one, but in the interest of full disclosure, you might add something like "this milonga accomodates ballroom dancers also". Or you could list it as a Dance Party with ballroom and Argentine tango. This is a huge red flag for the real tango types who are not interested in the ballroom accommodating. However there are plenty of semi-reformed ballroom tangueros who might like this event for this very reason. You can announce it as a "Tea Dance".
It's a lot harder with events that try to be a milonga but fall short of being a good one. You can't announce them as a Lousy Milonga.
Euphemisms that might alert the better dancers to your mixed feelings about quality are, mixed-level dancers, non-demanding, unexpected or cross-over music selection (eclectic if you want to be really nice about it), bare-bones venue, challenging shiny floor, uncrowded floor, nuevo-friendly, bring-your-own-waiter. Or, AT LEAST the people are friendly. Hehehe.
I have wondered if all-alternative-music milongas are in fact milongas. I announce them as all-alternative-music milongas. You have to call things what they are. The benefit is that such events satisfy a demand that I then don't have to satisfy myself. It's great!
Don't underestimate the power of word-of-mouth.
You could also add some really nice (true) adjectives to your other listing and not this one.
Good luck.
Tine
Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> wrote:
Hi Everyone:
I am on the horns of a dilemma. What separates a milonga from another
dance event?
Within my website, I maintain a webpage that lists tango activities in
Dallas
https://www.tejastango.com/tango_dallas.html
I have generally tried to keep the website up-to-date and list all
activities regardless of my opinion about a particular milonga or teacher.
I had generally adhered to the philosophy that the market, not the
information, will determine whether an event will be successful.
Earlier in the year, a few people in the community organized a series of
Thursday night milongas that were held in a changing roster of
restaurants, art galleries and museums where the dancers got second-class
treatment and attendance was poor. Eventually these milongas were
cancelled. Many people commented to me that these events might not really
be milongas and that maybe I shouldn't have listed them. They said the
events likely wouldn't have even been able to exist without the listing
and that someone who was visiting from another city would come away with a
false impression of the Dallas tango community if they were to attend one
of these Thursday events.
More recently, someone in the area has introduced a Sunday afternoon
"Tango and Tea Dance," and one of his friends has asked me to list the
three-hour event as a milonga. The organizer is not well-regarded as a
tango dancer and has previously shown an inability to distinguish
Argentine tango music from ballroom tango music. He intends to play tango
at his dance only in proportion to the number of tango dancers who show
up. For instance, if 20 ballroom dancers and 10 tango dancers show up,
two-thirds of music will be ballroom. In the discussion I had with the
organizer's friend about whether I should list this event as a milonga, I
was told by the friend that not listing the event will guarantee that it
will never become a milonga.
With best regards,
Steve
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
Check out our brand new website at www.yaletangoclub.org
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:21:43 -0700
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
My impression is that a milonga is a place of social interaction with friends and others who have
at least one thing in common - interest in Argentine Tango. It is an event where, above all, one
can dance tango, but is not limited to that. One can also just listen to great tango (and related)
music, have a dinner, chat, gossip, just have a great time with friends, acquaintances and tango
in mind, body, and heart. It is a place of bonding where a tango-focused community emerges and
thrives.
But, I have a habit of saying - there is no Central Committee on tango!
==================================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
==================================================
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:37:40 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Let me get this straight - are you saying that if I play Marilyn Manson
and Rage against the Machine, and people are doing Potsylvanian clog
dancing, but I "call" it a Argentine tango milonga," it's a milonga?
Please tell me you're not serious....
Michael (donning his asbestos suit)
Tango Bellingham
seth wrote:
> Steve,
>
> What's in name?
> During the summer Swing Nights at Lincoln Center, NY I danced every evening
> Tango in the rhythm of the day, to my huge satisfaction and once to the
> applause of a bunch of Argentines.
> Danced Tango at at a celebration to Big Band sound, on an emptied, (without
> requesting) floor, then an elderly guy came to us with tears in his eyes
> complimenting us, saying that our "Peabody" dance has been as good as his
> father's. First time I ever heard about the Peabody!
>
> Argentine Tango is versatile!
>
> I wouldn't be orthodox in your place, keep the name of the event and let
> each one dance whatever they fancy to whatever music is playing. Maybe
> you'll get some new Argentinian Tango recruits, and who knows, maybe you'll
> change the name of your own Milongas to Tango & Tea Party?
>
> Seth :-)
>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:32:04 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
What else is happening in Dallas Sunday afternoons?
If there is NOT an overwhelming number of events on Sundays,
you may want to include this event, but with clear indication
of what it is (That is, a Ballroom event with possible Argentine
Tango thrown in). If AT becomes a non-starter for that event,
then you can take it off your list.
Say what one may about the ballroom dancers, I know of more than a
handful of dancers that attend both ballroom and AT events regulaly.
TC
Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups.
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:37:33 -0400
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Well, I had in mind danceable music that would not offend the dancers. I
would not object to Ballroom, European tangos if that what the venue would
be playing. Actually I a more adverse to contemporary Argentine Tango
lacking melody than to the old sentimental non-Argentine ones.
It is DJ role to select the music for the audience, and Steve is one of the
best judging by his website.
Seth
On 10/21/05, Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@tangobellingham.com>
wrote:
>
> Let me get this straight - are you saying that if I play Marilyn Manson
> and Rage against the Machine, and people are doing Potsylvanian clog
> dancing, but I "call" it a Argentine tango milonga," it's a milonga?
>
> Please tell me you're not serious....
>
> Michael (donning his asbestos suit)
> Tango Bellingham
>
> seth wrote:
> > Steve,
> >
> > What's in name?
> > During the summer Swing Nights at Lincoln Center, NY I danced every
> evening
> > Tango in the rhythm of the day, to my huge satisfaction and once to the
> > applause of a bunch of Argentines.
> > Danced Tango at at a celebration to Big Band sound, on an emptied,
> (without
> > requesting) floor, then an elderly guy came to us with tears in his eyes
> > complimenting us, saying that our "Peabody" dance has been as good as
> his
> > father's. First time I ever heard about the Peabody!
> >
> > Argentine Tango is versatile!
> >
> > I wouldn't be orthodox in your place, keep the name of the event and let
> > each one dance whatever they fancy to whatever music is playing. Maybe
> > you'll get some new Argentinian Tango recruits, and who knows, maybe
> you'll
> > change the name of your own Milongas to Tango & Tea Party?
> >
> > Seth :-)
> >
>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:51:15 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
In retrospect, I think my answer was no to your explicit question but to the
underlying one.... To list (implicitly promote) or not certain events. It's
atough question for sure. In the name of fairness all events should be
listed, but in the name of honesty, you are almost required to place caveats
next to some of them.....
I guess I would look at this from the point of view of the consumer. If I'm
in a certain town and wish to dance tango, I would definitely prefer a dance
where good, classic danceable tango music is played in tandas, the people
dance tango and it's a relatively safe and comfortable venue... Having said
all that, I realize that not everyone else has the same criteria of good
music, tandas, tango, dancing or even what's safe and comfortable.
I've travelled around a good bit and have searched for milongas with various
degrees of success. As a tango dancer I'd love to have good, accurate
information about whatever milonga is listed. I realize that it's not nice
to criticize people's events and sometimes the truth hurts :-(... Overall,
I'd rather know ahead of time that if I'm going to drive 45min to one hour
through a strage town just to arrive to a mostly empty room where 3 women
and 2 guys are performing poorly done ganchos, sacadas and lifts in the
middle of the floor while modern Piazzolla music plays inaudibly in the
background.... That's a worst case scenario, but there are plenty of
milongas that might not look as dreary as my nightmare scenario but they
suffer from bad music, mostly inexperienced dancers and all sorts of less
desireable attributes.
I guess there are euphemisms that could be used or perhaps nice sounding
adjectives to describe the event without slamming it outright..... Good
luck,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:13:11 -0700
From: Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Uh, your original question was, "What's in a name?", and you didn't
answer mine. As to danceable music, there are probably people out there
who would argue that Marilyn Manson and Rage Against the Machine are
quite danceable (who knows?). And what do Steve's qualifications as a DJ
have to do with your original post? Non sequiturs abound.
So, here it is again: if I'm not playing Argentine tango music ("Golden
Age," contemporary, whatever), and the participants are not dancing
Argentine tango, but I call it a "milonga" as opposed to a
"barglesnorf", does that make it a "milonga"?
And no fair quoting Foucault or Derrida or comments about "sliding
chains of signifiers," ok?
Michael (who's getting a little annoyed with the postmodernists on the list)
Tango Bellingham
seth wrote:
> Well, I had in mind danceable music that would not offend the dancers. I
> would not object to Ballroom, European tangos if that what the venue would
> be playing. Actually I a more adverse to contemporary Argentine Tango
> lacking melody than to the old sentimental non-Argentine ones.
>
> It is DJ role to select the music for the audience, and Steve is one of the
> best judging by his website.
>
> Seth
>
> On 10/21/05, Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@tangobellingham.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Let me get this straight - are you saying that if I play Marilyn Manson
>>and Rage against the Machine, and people are doing Potsylvanian clog
>>dancing, but I "call" it a Argentine tango milonga," it's a milonga?
>>
>>Please tell me you're not serious....
>>
>>Michael (donning his asbestos suit)
>>Tango Bellingham
>>
>>seth wrote:
>>
>>>Steve,
>>>
>>>What's in name?
>>>During the summer Swing Nights at Lincoln Center, NY I danced every
>>
>>evening
>>
>>>Tango in the rhythm of the day, to my huge satisfaction and once to the
>>>applause of a bunch of Argentines.
>>>Danced Tango at at a celebration to Big Band sound, on an emptied,
>>
>>(without
>>
>>>requesting) floor, then an elderly guy came to us with tears in his eyes
>>>complimenting us, saying that our "Peabody" dance has been as good as
>>
>>his
>>
>>>father's. First time I ever heard about the Peabody!
>>>
>>>Argentine Tango is versatile!
>>>
>>>I wouldn't be orthodox in your place, keep the name of the event and let
>>>each one dance whatever they fancy to whatever music is playing. Maybe
>>>you'll get some new Argentinian Tango recruits, and who knows, maybe
>>
>>you'll
>>
>>>change the name of your own Milongas to Tango & Tea Party?
>>>
>>>Seth :-)
>>>
>>
>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:27:14 -0400
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Name is destiny for some, and if the event name is "Tango & Tea Party" I
would assume that only tango is played there. "Tea Party" conjures in my
mind an elegant French Tea Salon, and the gentility of the English 5
o'clock, sparkling with silver and china, and lounging elegant ladies. Give
me a real place like this, and I will make it my home.
It is a beautiful name for a party. One has only to add a subtitle,
"Ballroom, European and Argentinian Tangos of the Golden Era Dances" ,
"Appropriate Dress Expected" which would embellish it even more, and give a
sense of purpose.
The DJ would HAVE TO make the evening unforgettable and burnish the name in
the minds of the participants, who would beg for more.
A myth will be created...
Seth ;-)
On 10/21/05, Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@tangobellingham.com>
wrote:
>
> Uh, your original question was, "What's in a name?", and you didn't
> answer mine. As to danceable music, there are probably people out there
> who would argue that Marilyn Manson and Rage Against the Machine are
> quite danceable (who knows?). And what do Steve's qualifications as a DJ
> have to do with your original post? Non sequiturs abound.
>
> So, here it is again: if I'm not playing Argentine tango music ("Golden
> Age," contemporary, whatever), and the participants are not dancing
> Argentine tango, but I call it a "milonga" as opposed to a
> "barglesnorf", does that make it a "milonga"?
>
> And no fair quoting Foucault or Derrida or comments about "sliding
> chains of signifiers," ok?
>
> Michael (who's getting a little annoyed with the postmodernists on the
> list)
> Tango Bellingham
>
> seth wrote:
> > Well, I had in mind danceable music that would not offend the dancers. I
> > would not object to Ballroom, European tangos if that what the venue
> would
> > be playing. Actually I a more adverse to contemporary Argentine Tango
> > lacking melody than to the old sentimental non-Argentine ones.
> >
> > It is DJ role to select the music for the audience, and Steve is one of
> the
> > best judging by his website.
> >
> > Seth
> >
> > On 10/21/05, Michael at Tango Bellingham <michaele@tangobellingham.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Let me get this straight - are you saying that if I play Marilyn Manson
> >>and Rage against the Machine, and people are doing Potsylvanian clog
> >>dancing, but I "call" it a Argentine tango milonga," it's a milonga?
> >>
> >>Please tell me you're not serious....
> >>
> >>Michael (donning his asbestos suit)
> >>Tango Bellingham
> >>
> >>seth wrote:
> >>
> >>>Steve,
> >>>
> >>>What's in name?
> >>>During the summer Swing Nights at Lincoln Center, NY I danced every
> >>
> >>evening
> >>
> >>>Tango in the rhythm of the day, to my huge satisfaction and once to the
> >>>applause of a bunch of Argentines.
> >>>Danced Tango at at a celebration to Big Band sound, on an emptied,
> >>
> >>(without
> >>
> >>>requesting) floor, then an elderly guy came to us with tears in his
> eyes
> >>>complimenting us, saying that our "Peabody" dance has been as good as
> >>
> >>his
> >>
> >>>father's. First time I ever heard about the Peabody!
> >>>
> >>>Argentine Tango is versatile!
> >>>
> >>>I wouldn't be orthodox in your place, keep the name of the event and
> let
> >>>each one dance whatever they fancy to whatever music is playing. Maybe
> >>>you'll get some new Argentinian Tango recruits, and who knows, maybe
> >>
> >>you'll
> >>
> >>>change the name of your own Milongas to Tango & Tea Party?
> >>>
> >>>Seth :-)
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 11:58:52 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Hi Steve,
It sounds to me that the owner of the milonga has
already made the decision for you. He calls it a
"Tango and Tea Dance", which has a classic ballroom
ring to it. If he wanted it to be a milonga, he would
have called it a milonga. It seems quite clear that
his intent is to service a mainly ballroom crowd but
also give something for Argentine tango junkies. I
would list it as "Other Places with Some Tango".
Look at "intention" of the OWNER as being a critical
factor. What's the market niche? What goals does he
want to accomplish?
The traveling milongas I would list as milongas, which
can be big or small. However, the name of the milonga
may be something more informal without the name
"milonga", for example, Tango Nights. Those willing
to travel for tango are not stupid and probably face
the same venue issues in their own communities. My
experience on both sides is that it is the quality of
dancing that matters to travelers, not the venue.
I also agree with Michael that with your position as a
community leader, it is important to be accurate. To
me, accuracy is more important than political
expediency if one's goal is to educate. Catering to
egos can lead to what Christopher Everett once called
"institutionalized mediocrity". I'm sure that is not
what you want. Those without ego issues will see
setbacks as learning opportunities. As for those with
ego issues....well, there's nothing you can do about
them, anyway.
Hope this helps.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:22:29 -0400
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@OLM1.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:51:15 -0400, you wrote:
As I originally posted under your original answer, in agreement, I'll
continue using your thoughts as my basis. Perhaps not *quite*
agreeing now? <g>
>In retrospect, I think my answer was no to your explicit question but to the
>underlying one.... To list (implicitly promote) or not certain events. It's
>atough question for sure. In the name of fairness all events should be
>listed, but in the name of honesty, you are almost required to place caveats
>next to some of them.....
Steven has first and foremost, his own site to consider. To uphold
the quality and devotion to AT that he wishes it to have. It is his
concepts that have made it what it is. His question is obviously
because he's thinking of deviating from his own thoughts now..., and I
would bet money they are to *not* include the listing.
Milonga is AT dancing. Cortinas and other types of music,
traditionally done at Milongas in Bs.As. not counted. In a similar
vein.., including AT into ballroom and other dance venues, does not
the venue a Milonga make... Or words to that effect... ;->
>I guess I would look at this from the point of view of the consumer. If I'm
>in a certain town and wish to dance tango, I would definitely prefer a dance
>where good, classic danceable tango music is played in tandas, the people
>dance tango and it's a relatively safe and comfortable venue... Having said
>all that,
>I realize that not everyone else has the same criteria of good
>music, tandas, tango, dancing or even what's safe and comfortable.
Nor the same knowledge and/or ability to produce it...? Not usually
anyone's *fault*, and so should not necessarily be disdained. Help
them to be better, iow.
>I've travelled around a good bit and have searched for milongas with various
>degrees of success. As a tango dancer I'd love to have good, accurate
>information about whatever milonga is listed. I realize that it's not nice
>to criticize people's events and sometimes the truth hurts :-(... Overall,
>I'd rather know ahead of time that if I'm going to drive 45min to one hour
>through a strage town just to arrive to a mostly empty room where 3 women
>and 2 guys are performing poorly done ganchos, sacadas and lifts in the
>middle of the floor while modern Piazzolla music plays inaudibly in the
>background.... That's a worst case scenario, but there are plenty of
>milongas that might not look as dreary as my nightmare scenario but they
>suffer from bad music, mostly inexperienced dancers and all sorts of less
>desireable attributes.
Every city seems to have it's own particular level of tango ability,
quality, and style. We must respect all of them. Those who went
through the 'same' cruder learning stages over the years, need to help
those who are just beginning. Do not become elite or believe
yourselves better. One may have more experience but you need to use
your experience to help the 2 guys and 3 women when you arrive at
their Milonga. It is a 'social' event after all...
How else are they ever to become what one sees as the ideal?
>I guess there are euphemisms that could be used or perhaps nice sounding
>adjectives to describe the event without slamming it outright..... Good
>luck,
No need to slam.
*If* a dance qualifies as a Milonga (all AT related music), list it.
If it does not, don't!
As for caveats? Go with 'Caveat emptor'.
A listing is a listing. They should be describing themselves.
Let them blow their own horns., if they have any.
>Manuel
>
>visit our webpage
>www.tango-rio.com
Abrazos...
Floyd
Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.olm1.com/~wny/tango * * * * *
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:36:46 -0400
From: Gülden Özen
<gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
>At 01:14 PM 10/21/2005, you wrote:
>>maybe you'll
>>change the name of your own Milongas to Tango & Tea Party?
>>
>>Seth :-)
>
>
>I think using some cliche titles presents this risk but not every "tango &
>tea" has the ballroom component.
>>We have "Tango & Tea Party" title for an event we hold as a 3-hr guided
>>practica and since it is on a Sunday almost around the early dinner time
>>for some, we bring along some food and tea and coffee to serve. So, it is
>>literally "tango & tea" but as we present it, it is not a milonga not
>>just because it involves ballroom! It is a better idea, in my opinion,
>>to let communities hold their events in the best way they can without
>>being judgemental from the beginning and if one assumes a role as an
>>"impartial" information lister for the whole tango community in city or
>>region, then judging the quality of the event should be left up to the
>>participant, not to the lister as long as it is stated as a disclaimer in
>>the listing or announcement that it is not an endorsement.
>
>Regarding the question what a milonga is, I believe a social gathering
>where you can dance to sets of Argentine tangos as well as some occasional
>sets of salsa or other preferred types of music for that particular
>community. It is better to have a devoted milonga (dance hall) however,
>holding milongas at restaurants or cafes where the dancers are not treated
>as secondary customers could increase the chances to have more public
>exposure of the tango as a social dance.
>
>Best,
>
>Gulden Ozen
>Durham, NC
>www.tangophilia.com
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 12:48:01 -0700
From: ramiro garcia <ramiro9@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
> two-thirds of music will be ballroom. In the discussion
> I had with the organizer's friend about whether I
> should list this event as a milonga, I
> was told by the friend that not listing the event will
> guarantee that it will never become a milonga.
This is a Bad Thing?
Nits become lice. Nip it in the bud, that's what I say.
This sounds like the whiners that sued Google because their
commercial sites were not appearing on the first page of hits
for their products.
If your sense of even-handedness troubles you, fine, go list his
event. List it as a "Ballroom dance with maybe some traditional
tango music and maybe not." If you must be "fair," then be
honest, too.
ramiro
--- Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> wrote:
> Hi Everyone:
>
> I am on the horns of a dilemma. What separates a milonga from
> another
> dance event?
>
> Within my website, I maintain a webpage that lists tango
> activities in
> Dallas
> https://www.tejastango.com/tango_dallas.html
>
> ...
> More recently, someone in the area has introduced a Sunday
> afternoon
> "Tango and Tea Dance," and one of his friends has asked me to
> list the
> three-hour event as a milonga. The organizer is not
> well-regarded as a
> tango dancer and has previously shown an inability to
> distinguish
> Argentine tango music from ballroom tango music. He intends
> to play tango
> at his dance only in proportion to the number of tango dancers
> who show
> up. For instance, if 20 ballroom dancers and 10 tango dancers
> show up,
> two-thirds of music will be ballroom. In the discussion I had
> with the
> organizer's friend about whether I should list this event as a
> milonga, I
> was told by the friend that not listing the event will
> guarantee that it
> will never become a milonga.
>
> With best regards,
> Steve
>
ramiro garcia
ramiro9@yahoo.com
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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:47:01 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
>From: Floyd Baker <febaker@OLM1.COM>
>Steven has first and foremost, his own site to consider. ...., including AT
>into ballroom and other >dance venues, does not the venue a Milonga make...
> Or words to that effect... ;->
True dat.... The problem of "fairness" when one becomes a "tango information
clearing house"...
>Nor the same knowledge and/or ability to produce it...? Not usually
>anyone's *fault*, and so should not necessarily be disdained. Help
>them to be better, iow.
>Every city seems to have it's own particular level of tango ability,
>quality, and style. We must respect all of them. Those who went
>through the 'same' cruder learning stages over the years, need to help
>those who are just beginning. Do not become elite or believe
>yourselves better. One may have more experience but you need to use
>your experience to help the 2 guys and 3 women when you arrive at
>their Milonga. It is a 'social' event after all...
Oh, it's not about being elitist or depreciating people's efforts. It's
about expectations and one's desire to find what one wants.... Also,
although I agree with your idea of helping people get better, etc., this can
be a real bucket of worms.... I personally cannot presume that I'm some kind
of tango guru who will lead the unenlightened to tango bliss ;-). Also, I've
often found that the "unenlightened" have already very strong ideas about
tango. They might already believe themselves to be quite the expert dancers
and also they might well prefer their choice of music over any "genuine,
golden era tangos" that I might prefer, even if it was a play list blessed
by the best DJs in the world.... Lets face it, everybody has his or her own
idea about what constitutes a good milonga and most of us would no
appreciate one bit the meddling of some self nominated tango expert who pops
into town one night and presumes to teach us what we should like, how we
should dance, etc.
No Floyd, I don't want to go and interfere or bother people in their own
place. Been there, done that and learned my lesson. For myself, all I want
is to know ahead of time what sort of thing I might expect when I go to an
advertised tango event. Heck, I've gone to some pretty small, new to tango
communities and enjoyed myself in their dances.... Still, if I go to a big
city, I'd expect to find milongas somewhat more to my taste. I'd like to
have enough info to find them
Best,
Manuel
Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 18:57:10 -0400
From: lenl <lenl@TAMPABAY.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
> What else is happening in Dallas Sunday afternoons?
>
> If there is NOT an overwhelming number of events on Sundays,
> you may want to include this event, but with clear indication
> of what it is (That is, a Ballroom event with possible Argentine
> Tango thrown in). If AT becomes a non-starter for that event,
> then you can take it off your list.
>
> Say what one may about the ballroom dancers, I know of more than a
> handful of dancers that attend both ballroom and AT events regulaly.
>
Very true, and I am one of them, BUT I want to know ahead of time what I'm
in for and not to go away dissapointed.
Len
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 08:32:04 +0800
From: Kace <kace@PACIFIC.NET.SG>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Stephen Brown wrote:
> Hi Everyone:
>
> He intends to play tango
> at his dance only in proportion to the number of tango dancers who show
> up. For instance, if 20 ballroom dancers and 10 tango dancers show up,
> two-thirds of music will be ballroom.
Hi Stephen
In my community I have also encountered many such attempts to
maximize crowd attendence. Usually the organisers do not care
who come as long as they show up to help pay the bill -- in
other words, quantity and not quality. Is it any wonder they
usually fail?
My experience tells me that a Milonga should play tango music
only, in a tanda/cortina format. It should be at least 3 hours
long. It should be a social occasion (no hidden sales or
sponsorship agenda) and most of all, it should be hosted and
DJ by a tanguero.
As for the crowd, ballroom and Argentine tango dancers don't
mix well anyway. Nobody wants to wait too long for their
chance to dance, or worse, to try to tango with a ballroom
dancer. Mixing them usually ends in disaster, with nobody
having a good time.
As far as having the power to break them by not listing, I
suggest you start another section stating clearly that these
are not milongas but regular dance parties. Dancers then
show up knowing their mission is to give the non-tangueros a
chance to be exposed to "real" tango.
Kace
tangosingapore.com
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:31:53 +1000
From: Geoff Walker <geoffww@BIGPOND.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: What is a Milonga?
Over here in Sydney we have a calendar-focused website, Sydney Tango -
https://www.sydneytango.com.au/Default.aspx . Events that are not
traditional milongas but still have a tango flavour would be
colour-coded either black for a tango "interlude", or blue for a
"special event". A "Tango and Tea Dance" would most likely be regarded
as an "interlude", but depending on the circumstances could be a
"special event". We've had "travelling" milongas in the past and have
been happy to describe them as milongas.
Whether or not an event is listed depends on what your list is intended
to do. If it's meant to be a comprehensive listing, then personal
opinion shouldn't enter into the event's listability. Different
question though if it's meant to list events that in some sense bear
your personal seal of approval! Sydney Tango provides a comprehensive
listing, and so anything will get in, without any real or implied
endorsement by the site - caveat emptor!
Regards,
Geoff
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:51:40 -0400
From: Floyd Baker <febaker@OLM1.COM>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:47:01 -0400, you wrote:
>>From: Floyd Baker <febaker@OLM1.COM>
>
>>Steven has first and foremost, his own site to consider. ...., including AT
>>into ballroom and other >dance venues, does not the venue a Milonga make...
>> Or words to that effect... ;->
>
>True dat.... The problem of "fairness" when one becomes a "tango information
>clearing house"...
But how and why people came to consider it as such is what 'Steven'
has put into the site. He should not start changing his thinking now.
>>Nor the same knowledge and/or ability to produce it...? Not usually
>>anyone's *fault*, and so should not necessarily be disdained. Help
>>them to be better, iow.
>>Every city seems to have it's own particular level of tango ability,
>>quality, and style. We must respect all of them. Those who went
>>through the 'same' cruder learning stages over the years, need to help
>>those who are just beginning. Do not become elite or believe
>>yourselves better. One may have more experience but you need to use
>>your experience to help the 2 guys and 3 women when you arrive at
>>their Milonga. It is a 'social' event after all...
>
>Oh, it's not about being elitist or depreciating people's efforts. It's
>about expectations and one's desire to find what one wants.... Also,
>although I agree with your idea of helping people get better, etc., this can
>be a real bucket of worms.... I personally cannot presume that I'm some kind
>of tango guru who will lead the unenlightened to tango bliss ;-). Also, I've
>often found that the "unenlightened" have already very strong ideas about
>tango. They might already believe themselves to be quite the expert dancers
>and also they might well prefer their choice of music over any "genuine,
>golden era tangos" that I might prefer, even if it was a play list blessed
>by the best DJs in the world....
>Lets face it, everybody has his or her own
>idea about what constitutes a good milonga and most of us would not
>appreciate one bit the meddling of some self nominated tango expert who pops
>into town one night and presumes to teach us what we should like, how we
>should dance, etc.
I didn't mean that anyone should presume to do that... Obviously it
would go over like a gancho to the shin. But people need to be happy
being where they find themselves, even if it is not their ideal. They
will find very few ideals. As you say, 'every place is different'.
Mixing with other ways and means is beneficial to all in smaller ways.
Not to mention that one can simply decide not to go back. Just
never disdain a new experience. They're good even if you learn
they're 'personally' bad. ;-/ Then too, it will be the *remembered*
things that make your life longer when you look back on it. :-)
All of that is to say no opinions (caveats) should be included in the
listings. They too can be wrong and/or misleading. What is found may
be ideal for one and distasteful to another..., or in fact, the other
way round. <g>
>No Floyd, I don't want to go and interfere or bother people in their own
>place. Been there, done that and learned my lesson. For myself, all I want
>is to know ahead of time what sort of thing I might expect when I go to an
>advertised tango event. Heck, I've gone to some pretty small, new to tango
>communities and enjoyed myself in their dances....
>Still, if I go to a big city, I'd expect to find milongas somewhat more to my
>taste. I'd like to have enough info to find them
Then Steven best not list the ballroom mix as a Milonga...?
"Some AT music and dance may be included", as was suggested by
another, could be mentioned under a ballroom heading.
If there was one.
>Best,
Ditto.
>Manuel
Floyd
Argentine Tango - Buffalo Tango - Sun Tango
* * * * * www.olm1.com/~wny/tango * * * * *
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Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:58:51 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: What Is a Milonga?
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on this topic. I found the
discussion to be quite interesting and helpful.
I have generally tried to list all Argentine tango activities in the
Dallas area regardless of my personal opinion about organizer or the
event. I have adhered to the philosophy that the market and the quality
of the event, not the information, will ultimately determine whether an
event will be successful. Consequently, I have listed milongas that (in
my opinion) had bad venues, bad music, etc. I hope that such events are
not too detrimental to the community.
When compiling a list of milongas, I do think it is reasonable to draw the
line at events that do not fit the minimal definition of a milonga as
being a dance party at which Argentine tango, milonga and vals music are
played for most or all of the event. Otherwise the organizer of any
ballroom/salsa/swing/country dance event can expect to see their event
listed on the basis of playing a little tango music (ballroom or
otherwise) at their event. At such a point the list of milongas becomes
meaningless--unless lengthy explanations are added to the listing for some
or all events to separate the real milongas from other dance activities.
I don't think that using the word tango in the title of the event is
sufficient to make it a milonga. The event that prompted me to ask the
question, "What is a milonga?" has been dubbed "Tango and Tea Dance" by
the organizer, but he is not making any assurances that he will play
primarily Argentine tangos, milongas, and valses. He intends to play
tango music at his dance only in proportion to the number of tango dancers
who show up. (For instance, if 20 ballroom dancers and 10 tango dancers
show up, two-thirds of music will be ballroom.)
Such events could be listed in a category such as, Other Dances at which
Some Tango Music Is (May Be?) Played, if the webpage had such a category.
I don't have such a category, and I am not sure this is the time to start
one.
With best regards,
Steve
