1377 What is tango?
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 10:18:16 -0700
From: Farkyu Uptabut <farkyu_uptabut@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What is tango?
Hi,
What is the reason for Rick's rudeness and his nasty joke about
my name?. Mr. McGarry makes some fun about my being a simple peasant
and so forth, but I think his remarks are tongue-in-mouth and in good
nature, so I don't take offense. I am not insulting of Rick, I just want
to see what was funny in what he wrote about.
Rick described a situation where people were dancing steps that obviously
weren't tango to music that wastn tango, and then responded with "gales
of laughter" to his remarks of "hey, that isn't tango". To me I guess they
were just being silly, but not enough to laugh at Rick's remark of the
obvious, and certainly not repeatedly.
I think something is funny when you suddenly see that something is
not as it is supposed to be (in a certain way that is hard to describe)
and I'm trying to understand what is amiss in this situation that makes
it funny. It the dancing that isn't real, or Rick's remark, or the
laughter?
I don't mean to be insulting, but I just can't picture it at all.
Back to the dicussion of what is tango - Rick says, apparently referring
to the dancing of non-tango steps to non-tango music - "why NOT call
is tango?". And I have to say - then why not call it square dancing, or
call it eating a pineapple, or call it a donkey's pizzle? The answer is the
same - we communicate by having a general agreement on the
meaning of what we say. There aren't usually strict rules or definitions -
if we use a word too differently than most people, nobody is going
to arrest us - its just that if we do that, it doesn't make any sense.
As one who learned about American culture mostly from reading and
not direct experience, it's hard for me to tell what is real and what
isn't. When I read the posts of Mr. Rick, I just can't picture in my
mind a guy like this - always playing in fountains with children, always
having so much fun, dancing tango that isn't tango to Cuban hip-hop,
smelling the coffee and hearing the birds sing. I don't mean to
be insulting, but he makes himself to sound like what we call a happy
imbecile.
Well, I have to wonder if Mr. Rick is pulling our feet by describing
himself in this way - exaggerating the foolishness of what he is
saying to make some fun of someone. But what is the point?
Is Mr. Rick a real person? What is real and where is the humour?
Please explain.
Farqyu
>From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
>Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET> writes:
> > Dear Mr. Updabut,
> >It is amazing that a simple peasant from a small mountain village is able
>to so
> >pithily probe to the very center of this issue. You are a true voice of
>wisdom
> >crying out from the wilderness of the Turkish hinterland. Your answer
>was so
> >concise and on point, that the next time I hear some fathead blathering
>on
> >about how cool it is to dance contemporary nuevo alternative tango to
> >Nine Inch
> >Nails I will respond with only two words: Farqyu Updatbut!
>
>I sure hope that the Bush administration doesn't subscribe to Tango-L. Karl
>Rove may be out of a job soon. Mr. Updatbut looks like a genius & will make
>a perfect spokesperson/mouthpiece for promoting & marketing GoldenAge
>music. He quite eloquent, articulate & extremely wise.
>
>R
>PS: Not totally serious
>
>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 21:10:17 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: What is tango?
I can assure you Rick is a real person. And to explain his apparent "happy
imbecile" behavior, perhaps you missed the importance of an earlier comment
that he has recently fallen in love. In case you may not know from firsthand
experience, falling in love can blur the line between rational behavior and
foolishness. May we all be so foolish.
The question, Mr. Updabut, is whether YOU are real. The apparent rudeness of
Rick's comments are based on the tentative conclusion that you are not real,
that you are a sham, a put on. It wouldn't be the first time in the last few
months when someone had posted under a pseudonym just to mess with us.
Rick's conclusion (apologies for speaking for you, Rick, please calibrate me
if I'm off the mark) is based on the fact that your name is too cleverly
similar to a crude statement in our language. Please notice I am writing to
you giving you the benefit of the doubt as to your authenticity, even though
I will admit I also do not believe that you are who you say you are. For
further evidence than the cleverness of your name, I notice that, in the
intensity of passion in your most recent email, your English ghrammer and
sentence structure and thought develoopment seems completely lucid and not
at all what one would expect if you are who you say you are.
So I challenge you to either persuade us, or confess and perhaps explain why
you chose to deceive us, or stay off the list. I might add that your
questions seem to be genuine, and your viewpoint may well contribute
significantly to the discussion, but not under such an obviously contrived
alias. If you want to remain anonymous for whatever reason, then do so, but
say so, and quit trying to fark with us.
J in Portland
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:58:52 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340712081358l27211784kdd863aec400900e9@mail.gmail.com>
Is this tango?
[A] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqeIbOgvdtc
How about this?
[B] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c
- from approx 3:00 - 6:00 (ignore commentary)
Is this tango?
[C] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-T6OiM7pSY&feature=related
and finally this?
[D] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuIIj4HiAh0
They are all called 'tango'.
Is this confusing or not?
Ron
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:57:36 -0800
From: meaning of life <kushi_bushi@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is tango?
To: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>,
Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
i give, what's the answer? i think [E] all of the above (but ron did not offer that answer), but i am sure that there are those that only think that it is one of them? and all of the rest are "poor pretenders" and should just quit.
ron, thanx for the post, i liked them all. the intensity of [a] (and the dresses), the love of just being in [b], the love of moving in [c], and the intimacy of [d]. and the subelements of each in each.
but what do i know? i still belive that any positive expression and investigation of movement is better than sitting home watching t.v.
The Tangonista
Sponsered by P.E.T.A. (People Expressing Tango Attitude)
NOTICE - no cats were injured in the making of our music
> Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:58:52 -0600
> From: tango.society@gmail.com
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
>
> Is this tango?
>
> [A] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqeIbOgvdtc
>
> How about this?
>
> [B] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c
>
> - from approx 3:00 - 6:00 (ignore commentary)
>
> Is this tango?
>
> [C] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-T6OiM7pSY&feature=related
>
> and finally this?
>
> [D] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuIIj4HiAh0
>
> They are all called 'tango'.
>
> Is this confusing or not?
>
> Ron
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
https://www.windowslive.com/connect.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_Wave2_newways_112007
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:04:55 -0700
From: "Alex" <alex@tangofuego.us>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
<200712091805.lB9I5cKf006096@omr3.networksolutionsemail.com>
Mis dos centavos...
re: From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois"
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:04:55 -0700
From: "Alex" <alex@tangofuego.us>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
<200712091805.lB9I5cKf006096@omr3.networksolutionsemail.com>
Mis dos centavos...
re: From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois"
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
A] No - this is ballroom or "American" tango - a competitive "event".
B] No - Finnish tango is based on ballroom
C] Practica X - Yes and No. - Nuevo, it's close...very close...
D] Milonga @ El Beso - Yes, most definitely. Social argentine tango as it
has been for 80 years or so....
I think the defining term is "Argentine" Tango...a DJ in Denver recently
suggested that we start calling it Tango "Tipica"...based on the history of
the use of the word "tipica" by orchestras and musicians to define authentic
argentine tango...
Here is his message to the Tango Colorado (TC) Yahoo Group:
Back to the future
Posted by: ruddy
Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:22 pm (PST)
Hola Naifas y Garabos of TC,
the tango historian Luis Adolfo Sierra in his book "Historia
De La Orquesta Tipica" (published in 1966) narrates how back
in 1911 the seminal tango orchestra of Vicente Greco found
itself in a quandary. One of the first recording labels in Argentina,
Casa Tagini, wanted to publish Greco's repertoire of tangos.
The problem was that, up to that point, there was no differentiator
among the orchestras that animated the dance halls, carnivals,
and other dance events throughout the area. These orchestras performed
a variety of music including valses, maxixes, polkas, tarantellas,
pasodobles and, of course, tangos. They were all known for what they
were, i.e., orchestras, bands, rondallas, trios, etc., with no
identifier as to what they played. The advent of orchestras which
specialized in playing only tango music (like Greco's) required that
a label indicating so be invented. Thus, Greco came up with the
brilliantly descriptive Orquesta Tipica Criolla that later got
shortened to just Orquesta Tipica.
Orquesta (orchestra) was self-evident, Tipica (typical) as a
characteristic, and Criolla (native). In other words musical groups
that played native music from the Rio de La Plata region.
In time, Orquesta Tipica, was adopted by most tango orchestras as
a public badge that stated loud and clear what kind of music they
played.
The reason why I bring up this little story is that last Tuesday,
Nov 13th, the following email was delivered to all TC DJs:
> Hello,
>
> This is a quick update regarding changes in the DJ guidelines. The board
> has changed the guidelines to include nontraditional (alternative)music
> through out the practica rather than limiting this to the end of the
> evening. This comes from the results of the surveys which indicate the
> majority of the membership wants this change. Please add alternative
> tandas while still being sensitive to the "mood" of the room, adjusting
> your selections when appropriate. If you need any guidance in selecting
> alternative tandas, I'll be happy to forward lists of popular alternative
> tandas from other DJs.
>
> Thank you for your help with this and good luck!
As a member of the (apparent) minority that prefers to hear tango
music at tango events billed as milongas or tango practicas, I have
a request and a proposal to all my fellow DJs.
My request is that if you intend to comply with the aforementioned
guideline it would be nice if you were to go on record stating so in
advance. That way I and fellow minority members can plan our evenings
accordingly.
My proposal is that henceforth here in Colorado we should adopt the
example set down for us lo so many decades ago and start adding the
label Tipica to traditional dance events. E.g., Milonga Tipica or
Practica Tipica to indicate that traditional tango music will be
ruthlessly and generously played. That way we can all avoid the
embarrassment/aggravation of paying for an event ill-suited to our
tastes and sensibilities.
Best regards to y'all.
--
ruddy
(with tongue deep in cheek.)
"Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote....
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:58:52 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340712081358l27211784kdd863aec400900e9@mail.gmail.com>
Is this tango?
[A] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqeIbOgvdtc
How about this?
[B] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhxZoV3t61c
- from approx 3:00 - 6:00 (ignore commentary)
Is this tango?
[C] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-T6OiM7pSY&feature=related
and finally this?
[D] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuIIj4HiAh0
They are all called 'tango'.
Is this confusing or not?
Ron
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 13:53:57 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is tango? [Tango Clasico]
To: alex@tangofuego.us
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340712091153v5f0be94awe07b141803e0bcf9@mail.gmail.com>
On 12/9/07, Alex <alex@tangofuego.us> wrote:
>
> Mis dos centavos...
>
> re: From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois"
> Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
>
> A] No - this is ballroom or "American" tango - a competitive "event".
> B] No - Finnish tango is based on ballroom
> C] Practica X - Yes and No. - Nuevo, it's close...very close...
> D] Milonga @ El Beso - Yes, most definitely. Social argentine tango as it
> has been for 80 years or so....
>
> I think the defining term is "Argentine" Tango...a DJ in Denver recently
> suggested that we start calling it Tango "Tipica"...based on the history
> of
> the use of the word "tipica" by orchestras and musicians to define
> authentic
> argentine tango...
>
> Here is his message to the Tango Colorado (TC) Yahoo Group:
>
> Back to the future
> Posted by: ruddy
> Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:22 pm (PST)
>
>
> My proposal is that henceforth here in Colorado we should adopt the
> example set down for us lo so many decades ago and start adding the
> label Tipica to traditional dance events. E.g., Milonga Tipica or
> Practica Tipica to indicate that traditional tango music will be
> ruthlessly and generously played. That way we can all avoid the
> embarrassment/aggravation of paying for an event ill-suited to our
> tastes and sensibilities.
>
>
Alex,
I like your idea. Milonga Tipica. It sounds good. I also suggest for
consideration 'Milonga Clasica' to identify that only classic tango music
will be played. It might (and should) also imply that the milonga is for
social dancing, not exhibition tango demonstrated on the social dance floor.
Perhaps we could also call social tango as danced in Buenos Aires milongas
'Tango Clasico' so people know what we are talking about.
The reason I raised the question 'What is tango?' is because the label
'tango' has been used in several ways to describe some very different
expressions of 'tango'.
Tango at El Beso (or most Buenos Aires milongas) is social tango, apparently
pretty much the same as it has been danced at Buenos Aires milongas for 60+
years. The social tango of Buenos Aires is the foundation from which all
other versions of tango have been derived, very early (early 20th century)
for Ballroom Tango and Finnish Tango, more recently for Tango Nuevo. One
could argue that this is Tango (no adjective modifier required).
One could define 'tango' as
A social dance danced to traditional tango music in social dance clubs in
Buenos Aires, characterized by a maintained close embrace, using walking
steps, pivots and turns, progressing in a line of dance around the dance
floor.
By that definiation, only Tango Clasico would be tango.
However, linguists will often accept the public's use of language as
legitimate and one could argue that all videos represent tango. Informative
labeling of the type of dancing at an event would be helpful.
Now, for most of us, we don't expect to find Finnish Tango outside of
Finland and Ballroom Tango outside of a Ballroom Dance setting. The only
tangos that compete for space are Tango Clasico and Tango Nuevo. It is, in
fact, the mixing of these two on the same dance floor that is the cause of
many arguments on this list.
Let's face it, Tango Clasico and Tango Nuevo are different dances, even if
they share common roots and, to some degree, common movements and common
music. Compare the El Beso video to the Practica X video. A Martian
ethnomusicologist (or better yet, an 8 year old human child) will tell you
these are different dances.
A lot of the conflict between Tango Clasico and Tango Nuevo could be
resolved by having a Milonga Clasica and a Milonga Alternativa. Then we
don't have to fight over what is tango and what is not, but at least the
tanguero will know where he or she best fits in.
Ron
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 11:59:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is tango?
Gosh, I'm glad that for my practicas, which I deejay, I
don't need to base my selections on what other folks want.
I figure that is what milongas are for. For practicas, my
focus is on teaching and it's difficult to work with
beginners (who tend to arrive early) to alternative music.
This is the main reason I choose to save alternative pieces
for the last 30-45 minutes of a practica. I'll include it
as a fun break for those who have been working hard, doing
their exercises, etc. Perhaps Colorado's practicas are
more socially oriented?
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Alex <alex@tangofuego.us> wrote:
> Mis dos centavos...
>
>> > Hello,
> >
> > This is a quick update regarding changes in the DJ
> guidelines. The board
> > has changed the guidelines to include nontraditional
> (alternative)music
> > through out the practica rather than limiting this to
> the end of the
> > evening. This comes from the results of the surveys
> which indicate the
> > majority of the membership wants this change.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:22:52 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is tango? [Tango Clasico]
To: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: alex@tangofuego.us, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote:
> Let's face it, Tango Clasico and Tango Nuevo are different dances, even if
> they share common roots and, to some degree, common movements and common
> music. Compare the El Beso video to the Practica X video. A Martian
> ethnomusicologist (or better yet, an 8 year old human child) will tell you
> these are different dances.
You should read "the Origin of Species" a bit more thoroughly ;). The 8
year old child might agree with you, but a scientist classifying those
birds would disagree these come from two distinct species: all the
intermediate forms exist and cross-fertilise.
I'd be hard pressed to classify what I dance in one of these two bins,
to give just one example. When I suddenly get into another mood
and dance slightly differently, should I be changing attire just so
people are no longer confused as to what kind of animal I am?
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:17:17 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is tango?
Alex wrote:
> Mis dos centavos...
>
> re: From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois"
> Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
>
> A] No - this is ballroom or "American" tango - a competitive "event".
> B] No - Finnish tango is based on ballroom
I think you're begin harsh.
I have qualms about A) because it's a codified dance (i.e. a stuffed animal).
Finnish tango, though, is not Argentine tango, but is definitely a true
social dance. More so than many "authentic" Argentine stage tango
performances. So it's actually quite close to the spirit (but not the
form) of Argentine tango. Certainly closer to it than to competition
ballroom.
It's not Argentine tango, but is it tango?
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:28:49 -0300
From: Korey Ireland <korey@kodair.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is tango? [Tango Clasico]
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>, Tango Society of Central Illinois
<tango.society@gmail.com>
I can't imagine why I'm replying to this, but for what its worth:
Has it occurred to the collective wisdom on the list that many of the
same dancers show up at el beso, and practica x, that one can often
see ocho cortados in close embrace at villa malcolm, and elements
generally described as nuevo at Sunderland?
The tango world (at least Buenos Aires ) is not nearly as segregated
and clearly defined as the discussion here suggests.
Furthermore the idea of "tango as it has been danced in buenos aires
for 60+ years" is almost meaningless as a definition. I contend tango
in Buenos Aires has been in constant transition over these decades,
and that a dancer from the center of town and a dancer from the
outskirts would differ tremendously in interpretation of "the one true
tango."
Perhaps we can find an understanding of tango as an activity that
brings people together with a healthy mix of tradition and innovation
where there may be a wide range of styles and preferences. I don't
see much to be gained by sub-dividing and segregating this sub-culture
beyond what happens just by preference. And when we attempt to
define, pin-down, or limit this phenomena we only reveal the limits of
our perspectives. (and of course all of us have limited perspective
on this activity which spans decades and continents, no one will know
definitively what its is, how it is practiced, or where its going....)
respectfully,
Korey
On Dec 9, 2007, at 4:53 PM, Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote:
> On 12/9/07, Alex <alex@tangofuego.us> wrote:
>>
>> Mis dos centavos...
>>
>> re: From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois"
>> Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
>>
>> A] No - this is ballroom or "American" tango - a competitive "event".
>> B] No - Finnish tango is based on ballroom
>> C] Practica X - Yes and No. - Nuevo, it's close...very close...
>> D] Milonga @ El Beso - Yes, most definitely. Social argentine tango
>> as it
>> has been for 80 years or so....
>>
>> I think the defining term is "Argentine" Tango...a DJ in Denver
>> recently
>> suggested that we start calling it Tango "Tipica"...based on the
>> history
>> of
>> the use of the word "tipica" by orchestras and musicians to define
>> authentic
>> argentine tango...
>>
>> Here is his message to the Tango Colorado (TC) Yahoo Group:
>>
>> Back to the future
>> Posted by: ruddy
>> Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:22 pm (PST)
>>
>>
>> My proposal is that henceforth here in Colorado we should adopt the
>> example set down for us lo so many decades ago and start adding the
>> label Tipica to traditional dance events. E.g., Milonga Tipica or
>> Practica Tipica to indicate that traditional tango music will be
>> ruthlessly and generously played. That way we can all avoid the
>> embarrassment/aggravation of paying for an event ill-suited to our
>> tastes and sensibilities.
>>
>>
> Alex,
>
> I like your idea. Milonga Tipica. It sounds good. I also suggest for
> consideration 'Milonga Clasica' to identify that only classic tango
> music
> will be played. It might (and should) also imply that the milonga is
> for
> social dancing, not exhibition tango demonstrated on the social
> dance floor.
>
> Perhaps we could also call social tango as danced in Buenos Aires
> milongas
> 'Tango Clasico' so people know what we are talking about.
>
> The reason I raised the question 'What is tango?' is because the label
> 'tango' has been used in several ways to describe some very different
> expressions of 'tango'.
>
> Tango at El Beso (or most Buenos Aires milongas) is social tango,
> apparently
> pretty much the same as it has been danced at Buenos Aires milongas
> for 60+
> years. The social tango of Buenos Aires is the foundation from which
> all
> other versions of tango have been derived, very early (early 20th
> century)
> for Ballroom Tango and Finnish Tango, more recently for Tango Nuevo.
> One
> could argue that this is Tango (no adjective modifier required).
>
> One could define 'tango' as
>
> A social dance danced to traditional tango music in social dance
> clubs in
> Buenos Aires, characterized by a maintained close embrace, using
> walking
> steps, pivots and turns, progressing in a line of dance around the
> dance
> floor.
>
> By that definiation, only Tango Clasico would be tango.
>
> However, linguists will often accept the public's use of language as
> legitimate and one could argue that all videos represent tango.
> Informative
> labeling of the type of dancing at an event would be helpful.
>
> Now, for most of us, we don't expect to find Finnish Tango outside of
> Finland and Ballroom Tango outside of a Ballroom Dance setting. The
> only
> tangos that compete for space are Tango Clasico and Tango Nuevo. It
> is, in
> fact, the mixing of these two on the same dance floor that is the
> cause of
> many arguments on this list.
>
> Let's face it, Tango Clasico and Tango Nuevo are different dances,
> even if
> they share common roots and, to some degree, common movements and
> common
> music. Compare the El Beso video to the Practica X video. A Martian
> ethnomusicologist (or better yet, an 8 year old human child) will
> tell you
> these are different dances.
>
> A lot of the conflict between Tango Clasico and Tango Nuevo could be
> resolved by having a Milonga Clasica and a Milonga Alternativa. Then
> we
> don't have to fight over what is tango and what is not, but at least
> the
> tanguero will know where he or she best fits in.
>
> Ron
>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:28:38 -0700
From: "Tango Mail" <tango@springssauna.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango?
Alex wrote:
"re: From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois"
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:28:38 -0700
From: "Tango Mail" <tango@springssauna.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango?
Alex wrote:
"re: From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois"
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango?
A] No - this is ballroom or "American" tango - a competitive "event".
B] No - Finnish tango is based on ballroom
C] Practica X - Yes and No. - Nuevo, it's close...very close...
D] Milonga @ El Beso - Yes, most definitely. Social argentine tango as it
has been for 80 years or so...."
Alex (and original poster),
They're all tango. The origin of tango for all styles is the same: Argentina.
Today we have several variations of the dance: Argentine, International, American, Finnish, and some
might even argue for Uruguayan Tango.
But only in one place is tango the national pastime: Finland. There are also more tango dancers
in Finland than there are in Argentina. The world's largest tango festival also takes place in Finland.
Finnish tango, however, IS NOT based on ballroom tango - it is based on tango as tango looked and
was danced in 1910-20. Just look at video clips of old movies from 70-100 years ago where they
dance tango. You'll see kicks, dips, and even promenades, all of which have remained in the
Finnish style but "evolved" out of A.T. One thing you must know about the Finns, is their stubbornness;
change don't come easy: if they found what works in 1916 why change it? Heck.. even the women
and the men are still separated and don't intermingle (least in the dance halls).
The Finnish embrace is also like that of the Argentine tango. American and International tango
connect at the belly, lower rib cage, and the hips.
Tango was brought to Finland by an upper-class Danish couple, who had learned it in Paris from the
visiting dancers from BsAs sometime between 1912 and 1916, I forget exact year.
Argentina in those days sent 'ambassador's' to Europe to lure more people
to emigrate to Argentina and to show the new and wonderful things that they were doing down there
in South America. The couple demonstrated this new, wonderful, way of dancing to the
Helsinki uppercrust, who took it to their hearts immediately, and a love affair was born.
This back-and-forth relationship between the old world and the "new world" is also why the Tango Vals is as fast as it is..
they took the waltz elements from Europe and mixed them in with the tango.
Back then, of course, there were no variants of waltz. The speed at which waltz used to
be danced and played is today called the Viennese Waltz, and the slower version is called
Standard/Ballroom/American Waltz.
American and International tangos were born from the masses desire to learn to dance it. It had to be standardized,
packaged, to easily sell to the flocks of sheep. Steps were invented, named, numbered. They were printed on
sheets and in books to copy and mimic. You could tape foot marks on the floor and step on them to memorize
the steps into muscle memory. This is how a great horde of people learned to dance a wide variety of dances
back when private instruction was for the 1% of populace who had the most money. International style came first,
and is closest of the two to original form. American version is an edited version of the International style.
Think of it as third-hand gossip - the story changes every time and fish gets bigger and bigger. It's like making
a copy of a copy or trying to blow up a small digital photographs, which might be something you'd relate to better.
Of all the styles, the Finnish tango is closest to the original roots, as it changed very little. The music
changed from a major key to a minor key but the lyrics are almost always the same they are in
Argentine tango; stories of broken hearts, losing bets at the horse races, how they made poor choices,
and how they miss the homeland when they go away, etc, etc, etc. In fact, a great many
Finnish tango songs are simply recomposed and translated Argentine tango songs. The golden era
for authentic Finnish tango music and the making of was from 1930 through the 50s.
Korey hit the nail on the head by saying how the tango has evolved over the last few decades constantly
and how Pedro from A thinks he is dancing authentico whilst Pablo from B thinks A is crap and B is god's gift.
I've talked to old dancers from Argentina and some have said that the nuevo elements and ochos and boleos are
all very recent developments, evolved steps after they were again "allowed" to dance after the tango ban was
lifted, and others who say those moves have always been part of the dance through the time from
the days of the first sausage war. However, I would again refer to the movies of olden days: I haven't picked
up on too many boleos... although I can hardly watch an entire movie from even 1970 not to mention 1910,
so admittedly I may have missed something.
Here's a few links to styles of old:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKQ06jtaYvk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r55zMPlPWng
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCV16hC0ZW4
JK, who does not, incidentally, dance the Finnish Tango.
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:31:05 -0600
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is tango? [Tango Clasico]
To: "Korey Ireland" <korey@kodair.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cff24c340712102231r4df82e3ft476ba1cbb6dc5827@mail.gmail.com>
On 12/10/07, Korey Ireland <korey@kodair.com> wrote:
>
> I can't imagine why I'm replying to this, but for what its worth:
>
> Has it occurred to the collective wisdom on the list that many of the
> same dancers show up at el beso, and practica x, that one can often
> see ocho cortados in close embrace at villa malcolm, and elements
> generally described as nuevo at Sunderland?
>
> The tango world (at least Buenos Aires ) is not nearly as segregated
> and clearly defined as the discussion here suggests.
Korey,
What you don't generally see at Buenos Aires milongas are dancers dancing
Tango Nuevo. If elements characteristic of Tango Nuevo (e.g., volcadas,
colgadas, various forms of ganchos and boleos) are seen, it is usually out
of place and frowned on by porten~os. I have seen some nuevo dancers kick
bottles off tabletops in Plaza Bohemia. It doesn't fit in the crowded
environment. The nuevo practicas exist so those interested in Tango Nuevo
can have an environment is which this type of dancing is acceptable. There
are less than a dozen nuevo practicas per week in Buenos Aires and over 100
milongas where the standard social tango (what I'm calling Tango Clasico) is
danced. The proportion of toursists is higher at the nuevo practicas.
The roots or Tango Nuevo can be seen in movements like ochos and giros and
the cruzada shared with Tango Clasico. However, as an experimental dance
Tango Nuevo has evolved to be quite different than Tango Clasico, just as
the latter evolved from a combination of musical and step elements derived
>from European dances brought to Argentina by immigrants. At some point
'tango' was a dance that was distinct from the dances that contributed to
it. Likewise, Tango Nuevo has become sufficiently distinct from Tango
Clasico to be considered a different dance. Rather than getting inot an
argument about 'What is tango?', I provided film clips of different dances
called 'tango' and suggested that, similar to linguists, we accept a dance
for what the dancers themselves call it and that we be clear about our
labeling so people know what is meant when the word 'tango' is used.
Furthermore the idea of "tango as it has been danced in buenos aires
> for 60+ years" is almost meaningless as a definition. I contend tango
> in Buenos Aires has been in constant transition over these decades,
> and that a dancer from the center of town and a dancer from the
> outskirts would differ tremendously in interpretation of "the one true
> tango."
Tango Clasico has undoubtedly evolved. However there are certain conventions
that are maintained. Among them are maintaining a compact dance with feet on
the floor, keeping a close embrace, respecting the progression of the line
of dance, and dancing to classic tango music. Tango Nuevo does not
necessarily abide by these conventions. These differences are the roots of
the incompatibility of these different dances when occupying the same dance
floor.
By the way, the differences between Tango Classico in different barrios
today is more a difference of degree than of kind. There are differences in
the degree of offset of the embrace and orientaiton of the faces, the angle
of connection (e.g. apilado or not), the use of hands in leading or not, for
example. However, the variation is more or less continuous and the
differences between milongas is more in the proportion of dancers using
different variations along this contiuum than there is a distinct
separation. However, all of these variations seen are related but
recognizably distinct from Tango Nuevo.
Perhaps we can find an understanding of tango as an activity that
> brings people together with a healthy mix of tradition and innovation
> where there may be a wide range of styles and preferences. I don't
> see much to be gained by sub-dividing and segregating this sub-culture
> beyond what happens just by preference. And when we attempt to
> define, pin-down, or limit this phenomena we only reveal the limits of
> our perspectives. (and of course all of us have limited perspective
> on this activity which spans decades and continents, no one will know
> definitively what its is, how it is practiced, or where its going....)
Use of space and difference in musical preference are a major source of
conflict between dancers of Tango Nuevo and Tango Clasico. There may be
little or no conflict if most members of a tango community accept this
diversity. This is no wrong. It may be very democratic. This happens often
in the US, where one will find nuevo tango dancers using the ample space in
the middle of a floor and social tango dancers use the perimeter. Many
social dancers will sit out the tandas of non-tango music. This is OK if
everyone there accepts it.
However, there are quite a few of us who have been exposed to the
environment of Buenos Aires milongas, with crowded floors having such
energy, yet being very organized with dancers respectful of each others'
space. Sometimes the most crowded floors are the best, because you can't
create step sequences, you just dance compactly in the space available,
focusing on your partner and the music. It is in these moments where with
the right partner time stands still and all you experience is the moment of
partner connection and you respond to the music, taking the space available
without thinking. This is the most enjoyable but elusive Tango Trance.
We would like to experience that Tango Trance at milongas in the US. This is
something that is created by a congregation of like-minded dancers who share
the floor harmoniously. This environment can be created at some tango
festivals focusing on tango danced in close embrace, However, over the last
year or two I have noticed more and more that tango nuevo dancers descend on
a festival of this type and zip in and out of the line of dance at a rapid
speed. It is this discordance of movement on the dance floor that makes
social tango dancers defensive and tense. How can we relax and enjoy the
movement if we are constantly on our guard for unpredictable movements?
I wish Tango Nuevo dancers would understand what Tango Clasico dances are
trying to achieve, a recreation in part of the tango culture of Buenos Aires
milongas in our milongas in the US. You see us as 'noodling milongueros'
blocking your progression around the dance floor instead of seeing us
dancers interested in the connection we have with our partners that we
achieve in the contracted space we dance in.
This is not to say that Tango Nuevo is not a beautiful art form. When done
well, it is very beautiful and I respect the skill that it entails. However,
in its creative evolution it has become a very different dance from the
Tango Clasico from which it has evolved. Both dances flourish better in a
different spatial and musical environment. So segregation is not about
creating conflict, but rather about avoiding it. To separe these dances is
to allow them both the freedom to express themselves fully in a supportive
environment. That is what is done in Buenos Aires. It would be helpful to
tango event promoters outside Argentina to be clear in advertising if their
events are designed primarily to support one dance or the other.
Ron
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:16:25 +0100
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is tango? [Tango Clasico]
To: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: Korey Ireland <korey@kodair.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote:
> Korey,
>
> What you don't generally see at Buenos Aires milongas are dancers dancing
> Tango Nuevo. If elements characteristic of Tango Nuevo (e.g., volcadas,
> colgadas, various forms of ganchos and boleos) are seen, it is usually out
> of place and frowned on by porten~os.
Porte?os don't have to defend an orthodoxy with the sword, unlike some
members of the list, and can be surprisingly tolerant.
What they aren't tolerating is someone bothering others.
Sometimes, if someone is merely embarassing himself a bit too much but not
really bothering others, they'll gently nudge them, and out
of the kindness of their heart to watch and learn, but that's very
different from the arguments about heresy we keep on hearing here.
> I have seen some nuevo dancers kick
> bottles off tabletops in Plaza Bohemia.
Fallacy of insufficient sample:
This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population
based on a sample that is not large enough. It has the following form:
1. Sample S, which is too small, is taken from population P.
2. Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.
[The claim also contains elements of three other fallacies, but I'll leave
that as an exercise for the reader.]
Note that I'm not saying it's OK to kick bottles off tabletops. That doesn't
mean other things (which do not kick bottles off tables nor hinder
other dancers) can't fit.
Context is everything when you're going to dance something. Exercise your
judgement, tune your soul to the local TONE, and you'll be fine.
It's not necessary to compile a list of orthodox and heretical moves (after
having tried to reconcile the hundreds of conflciting views about what
is heretical and what is not -- thankfully, in Argentine tango
there is no Great Oracle with tablets of stone to decide that) and
memorise them before you put a foot on the dance floor, though.
To discuss these things as if we were living in Plato's world of ideals
is a futile exercise.
> The roots or Tango Nuevo can be seen in movements like ochos and giros and
> the cruzada shared with Tango Clasico. However, as an experimental dance
> Tango Nuevo has evolved to be quite different than Tango Clasico,
As I said in another post, I do not believe in the existence of those two
as rigid and absolute classifications. They're not two species yet, not until
guardian angels of orthodoxy wielding firey swords manage to separate the
"chaff" from the "weat" and eliminate all cross-pollinations (what do we do
with the persons of mixed race? "Purify" them, or cast them into the abyss?).
A browsing through some of the historical literature would allow you to
see that there have always been discussions about orthodoxy, heterodoxy
and heresy, even within what you would these days undoubtedly classify
as Tango Clasico.
It's good. It's proof that it's a living dance, just as English is a living
language.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
--
<If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 04:04:51 -0300
From: Korey Ireland <korey@kodair.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is tango? [Tango Clasico]
To: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Thanks Alexis,
I enjoy your clarity and open mindedness.
Thanks also to Ron for provoking me consider another perspective.
I wonder what would happen if we all put as much time into improving
and enjoying our dance as we did into defending/classifying/debating?
Would it produce a new "species of dance"? Or just a bunch of people
enjoying and refining something they love to do, side by side with as
much personal differentiation as the setting allows....
I will confess off the record that I actually danced several ocho
cortados tonight at practica X, dancing in close embrace to D'Arienzo
with an exquisite Argentine follower while the couple next to us was
doing soltadas and over-turned ganchos. (There are occasionally bumps
in this setting where styles from several continents and generations
meet, but on the whole its good humored, and good dancing of any style
is generally respected....)
While chatting between songs my partner expressed to me that her
favorite thing was to dance in a comfy close embrace but with the
dynamics of the younger dancers...sounds like we're still a long way
>from distinctly different species...or perhaps we have a new, new
thing, should we call it NuevoClassico? (i jest, in fact I'm happy to
just call it tango.)
One more curious example: Tango Brujo, generally considered a Nuevo
school, is doing an ongoing series with their Thursday practica where
they are inviting milongueros to come and share their perspective with
the younger dancers. The idea being that there is much commonality,
and much to be learned from the experience of others. This week the
guest is rumored to be Carlitos Perez, who runs the famous Villa
Urquiza practica at Sunderland. How delightful, to have Perez and
Gaston and Mariela fusing and exchanging movements and styles...the
oldest and the newest in the same space.
Please understand, I don't mean to pick a fight or criticize the well
formed opinions of others but to share a different perspective and
some evidence of a tolerance for (or even mixing of ) different styles
here in Buenos Aires (certainly we can find the same in the US and
Europe). BsAs is the sort of scene where you can find examples to
support almost any view which just suggests to me that there is not
much point in making definitions around it. The more interesting
question to me is what do we gain by separating generations, styles,
and priorities. Are we in fact enriched by homogeny? Certainly on a
species level diversity is advantageous, but I'd contend there's a
healthy place for diversity even in the milonga or practica. I'm not
a big proponent of segregation by style. I'd prefer to be confronted
by, and learn to appreciate the priorities of other dancers. In the
end I hope this will have a positive influence on the way I enjoy the
dance.
-Korey
On Dec 11, 2007, at 9:16 AM, Alexis Cousein wrote:
> Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote:
>> Korey,
>> What you don't generally see at Buenos Aires milongas are dancers
>> dancing
>> Tango Nuevo. If elements characteristic of Tango Nuevo (e.g.,
>> volcadas,
>> colgadas, various forms of ganchos and boleos) are seen, it is
>> usually out
>> of place and frowned on by porten~os.
>
> Porte?os don't have to defend an orthodoxy with the sword, unlike some
> members of the list, and can be surprisingly tolerant.
>
> What they aren't tolerating is someone bothering others.
>
> Sometimes, if someone is merely embarassing himself a bit too much
> but not
> really bothering others, they'll gently nudge them, and out
> of the kindness of their heart to watch and learn, but that's very
> different from the arguments about heresy we keep on hearing here.
>
>> I have seen some nuevo dancers kick
>> bottles off tabletops in Plaza Bohemia.
>
> Fallacy of insufficient sample:
>
> This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a
> population based on a sample that is not large enough. It has the
> following form:
>
> 1. Sample S, which is too small, is taken from population P.
> 2. Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.
>
> [The claim also contains elements of three other fallacies, but I'll
> leave
> that as an exercise for the reader.]
>
> Note that I'm not saying it's OK to kick bottles off tabletops. That
> doesn't
> mean other things (which do not kick bottles off tables nor hinder
> other dancers) can't fit.
>
> Context is everything when you're going to dance something. Exercise
> your
> judgement, tune your soul to the local TONE, and you'll be fine.
>
> It's not necessary to compile a list of orthodox and heretical moves
> (after
> having tried to reconcile the hundreds of conflciting views about what
> is heretical and what is not -- thankfully, in Argentine tango
> there is no Great Oracle with tablets of stone to decide that) and
> memorise them before you put a foot on the dance floor, though.
>
> To discuss these things as if we were living in Plato's world of
> ideals
> is a futile exercise.
>
>> The roots or Tango Nuevo can be seen in movements like ochos and
>> giros and
>> the cruzada shared with Tango Clasico. However, as an experimental
>> dance
>> Tango Nuevo has evolved to be quite different than Tango Clasico,
>
> As I said in another post, I do not believe in the existence of
> those two
> as rigid and absolute classifications. They're not two species yet,
> not until
> guardian angels of orthodoxy wielding firey swords manage to
> separate the
> "chaff" from the "weat" and eliminate all cross-pollinations (what
> do we do
> with the persons of mixed race? "Purify" them, or cast them into the
> abyss?).
>
> A browsing through some of the historical literature would allow you
> to
> see that there have always been discussions about orthodoxy,
> heterodoxy
> and heresy, even within what you would these days undoubtedly classify
> as Tango Clasico.
>
> It's good. It's proof that it's a living dance, just as English is a
> living
> language.
>
> --
> Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
> Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics
> --
> <If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals>
>
>
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 08:56:38 +1100
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is tango? [Tango Clasico]
To: "'Korey Ireland'" <korey@kodair.com>, Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>,
Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0256643AEF@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Opinions about what is tango are ok. But please don't toy with us by telling us about dancing at practica X. That is very cruel and now I am very jealous. I think I will have to start a support group for tango dancers with young children who can only travel to Argentina infrequently for short periods.
Victor Bennetts
>I will confess off the record that I actually danced several ocho
>cortados tonight at practica X, dancing in close embrace to D'Arienzo
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Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:19:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 1
Peter Esser sent me an excellent email that he was unable to post on Tango-L due to formatting. With his permission, I am posting it with some formatting modifications.
Hi Trini, sure, if you can figure a way to send it to the list, go right ahead. Could serve as "field research" if there are any thoughtful responses. As a btw, I did some of this work as part of my dissertation (I went back to school after I retired). What I sent you is an abbreviated version and, of course, the tango part is new.
Please add my name,
Peter Esser
(July 2009 -- Buenos Aires)
peterwesser@oregonducks.org
What is tango?
--------------
What is our conception of tango?
What would a category called ?tango? look like?
Is the traditional Argentine tango music an important element of the dance?
Is there such a thing as ?the real, authentic, prototypical tango??
Is all tango rooted in the Argentine tradition?
Why even ask such questions?
----------------------------
The point is, we do ask such questions directly and often inferentially, sometimes generating word fights and turf fights.
So, can we not simply defer to authority, in this case, let a venerable milonguero, or tango poet, or tango musician/composer steeped in the tradition, tell us ? this is tango, and this is not; and this is this style of tango?
Conversely we could go along with Humpty Dumpty who famously said: ?When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.?
Such an anything goes approach would, of course, render the concept tango meaningless. Yet, how can we deal with what seems a confusing situation, namely, that many different styles of dancing (even to different genres of music) are blithely lumped together and are called tango?
Let?s take a look at what contemporary philosophers and cognitive scientists have to say about the why and what-fore of categories, and then try to structure a category tango. This might go a long way to answer the above questions.
A little background on category research (in a somewhat short hand manner).
Most of the following is motivated by George Lakoff?s book ?Women, Fire and Dangerous Things.? (This is the place to go for digging deeper into the subject).
Human beings must categorize, we couldn?t deal with all the myriad details without lumping together things ?that belong together,? that have certain properties in common.
We reason and make inferences on the basis of categories. For the longest time, going back to the time of Aristotle, categories were thought to be unproblematic, one looked for the essential X that certain things have in common and this commonality then defined the category. Interestingly, it was readily assumed that things out there in the world were already organized, already categorized and we could learn by and by this organization, put things in the proper category boxes. There was no human contribution to this organization, the human mind did not contribute to understanding, to categorizing ? other than finding the ready-made.
(In the case of tango, what would that common X be, what is the essence of tango, what do salon style, milonguero style, canyengue, nuevo tango, international/ball room tango, alternative tango, show tango, Finnish tango, etc. have in common?)
Ludwig Wittgenstein broke with the established notion of looking for ?the necessary and sufficient conditions? that supposedly define all members of a given category. He argued for the ?family resemblance of things.? In other words, instead of categorizing on the basis of a priori speculation we need to look and see.
According to Lakoff, Wittgenstein made a move in the right direction, but didn?t go far enough. More recently, how we categorize has become a major field of study thanks to the pioneering work of Eleanor Rosh which started in the 1970s.
Empirical research by cognitive scientists shows that our somatic interactions with the environment play an important role in how we categorize. John Dewey anticipated this insight, for he argued that we humans are not a transparency, but we are a force. We actively shape our world, our understanding of the world. Some of us (individuals and groups large and small) sometimes do a good job, sometimes not.
Back to Lakoff in our breathless manner. Many categories, and consequently our concepts, are greatly influenced and shaped by culture and may change over time. Not all members that inhabit a category (there are prototypes, ideal types, exemplars, social stereo types, and others) have equal weight from a cognitive perspective. There are members that are better examples of a category. These are called prototypes.
Prototypical examples of the category fruit are apples and oranges.
Saws and hammers are prototypical tools. Let?s not forget the cultural components and hemispheric view points of our categorizing.
(What would be a prototypical member of the category tango?)
Part 2 to Follow
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:27:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3
Final
What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 Final
What a Radial Category of Tango might look like.
The following is based on armchair field research.
According to this writer?s experience and observations the category tango is made up of several models forming a cluster category.
There is the close embrace model (salon/milonguero style), the canyengue model, the nuevo model all danced to traditional tango music with a strong participatory and social component.
A quick note on salon style and milonguero style. Many dancers when they hear salon style they think of a traditional close embrace model. Others have come to accept that this refers to a somewhat open style of dancing, sort of in-between close and nuevo. Carlos Gavito famously argued that there is no such thing as a milonguero style, yes, there are milongueros, but no milonguero style of dancing. However, by now, the milonguero style has become an accepted concept and most tango dancers have an image what the term refers to, namely, close embrace dancing to traditional music..
(We may be tempted to ask, what is tango music? For our present purpose we can calmly say that we know it when we hear it and let us lump together tango, valse, milonga and maybe candombe of the golden age as traditional tango music).
These three models together form a cluster category, the main cluster.
Seems that the close embrace tango as danced for a generation or longer in many clubs in Buenos Aires, and importantly, danced to traditional tango music, is the prototypical tango dance. At it?s best, it?s a very intimate dance requiring utmost concentration and can make for an intense here and now experience. The traditional codigos of the milonga contribute to the flavor of this prototypicality.
The canyengue model, also incorporating close embrace, is of an older vintage and is no longer pre-dominant, but is an important model for the tradition.
The nuevo model is danced in an elastic, open embrace and emphasizes a more sporty attitude. This model seems on the ascendancy.
In short, the close embrace model, the canyengue model and the nuevo model form the main cluster of the tango category.
Let?s remember that many categories, and consequently our concepts, are shaped by culture and as such may change over time. Not all members that inhabit a category have equal weight from a cognitive perspective. The close embrace model has the greater weight, at least in Buenos Aires, and is the prototypical tango dance as of now.
The picture may be different in other parts of the world where possibly nuevo tango has became the prototypical model. We would have to look and see.
One or more of these models motivates extensions, for instance, show tango, alternative tango, international/ball room tango, and Finnish tango and maybe others.
Show tango is danced by professionals for an audience of onlookers often to traditional tango music. It surely lacks the social, participatory aspect of tango dancing.
The alternative model is characterized by dancing tango steps to other genres of music. This kind of dance sheds the connection with the tradition, with the traditional music, it?s a hybrid.
Ball room tango and Finnish tango are products of European cultures and have little, if any, resemblance to the tango as danced in the clubs of Buenos Aires.
These models, these extensions seem removed from the central cluster of subcategories. They are in an outer orbit.
The central close embrace model has recently spawned TangoZen, PsicoTango, and others. If these are extensions, or simply clever promotional labels is an open question.
Then there are metaphorical extensions, it takes two to tango, let?s tango on, etc.
Back to our original questions.
*What is our conception of tango?
As we saw, it depends who we ask.
*What would a category called ?tango? look like?
We suggest that it is a complex radially structured category.
*Is the traditional Argentine tango music the important element of the dance?
According to porte?o poets, and any porte?o/a we may ask, the answer is yes. In fact, in their heart, the traditional music IS el tango, the dance is secondary.
*Is there such a thing as ?the real, authentic, prototypical tango??
We have suggested that the close embrace model is the prototypical model ?in Buenos Aires.
*Is all tango rooted in the Argentine tradition?
There seems to be little disagreement that this is the case, but some tangos have emerged, have evolved that are far removed from the tradition and are for sure not Argentine tango.
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 09:23:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 2
What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 2
A radial category structure.
----------------------------
How we human being categorize and conceptualize becomes rather complex as soon as we take the question seriously ?as we should.
Lakoff and Mark Johnson, the latter who is Lakoff?s co-author of several books, tell us that there are four major principles that operate to organize the internal structure of a given category ? to wit, the propositional structure; the image schematic structure; metonymy; and metaphorical mappings.
All these details are most important and interesting at some level, but let?s forge ahead to look at what seems a simple literal concept --mother. That should be easy, no?
Following Lakoff, traditional theory should be able to give us necessary and sufficient conditions for this straightforward universal concept. After all everybody has a mother. As it turns out just to say a woman who has given birth to a child is a mother doesn?t cut it.
We all know mothers for whom this definition does not apply.
The category mother is structured radially (please note, radical is something else) with respect to a number of subcategories.
According to empirical research the category mother is made up of a number of models forming a cluster category. Again, let?s take a deep breath and charge ahead. There is the birth model, the genetic model, the nurturance model, the marital model, the genealogical model. These together make up the central subcategory. In other words, it defines the prototypical mother who is a female who gives the genetic material, gives birth to the baby, nurtures it, is the wife of the father and is the closest female relative. It?s an idealization that in the real world often does not come to pass.
Without spelling it out we can easily construct where one or the other model applies but not the other. For instance, the birth mother may not also be the nurturing mother, etc. Modern technology, such as artificial insemination, etc. have complicated the picture even further.
One or more of these models motivates extensions, foster-, step-, unwed-, surrogate-, working-, single mother, etc.
Lakoff suggests that there is a strong inclination to suggest that one of these models, let?s say the birth model, is the most important one.
But, not even writers of dictionaries can agree which is the real mother.
We may assume that the different types of mothers have strong views on the matter.
Then there are the metaphorical extensions -- mother of all battles, mother of all evil, etc.
Is tango similarly structured, that is, structured radially with respect to a number of subcategories? Lets look and see.
Part 3 to Follow
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:08:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) Commentary
Hi all,
I?ve been mulling over Peter?s essay for the past couple of days and examined how we tend to use terms on this list. For example, we tend to use ?traditionalist? to describe salon and milonguero styles and ?nuevo? specifically for nuevo. Yet, we use ?Argentine Tango? to refer primarily to salon and milonguero styles, and if we include nuevo, we specifically say ?Nuevo?. We?re already treating it differently. I think that says something about how we map our internal world of tango.
There also comes the question of suppose I treat Nuevo as I do Milonga and Vals. Then my requirements for accepting students into a nuevo class would be much less than they are now. They would just need to know tango basics. Really, one could teach Nuevo completely separately from salon or milonguero. Isn?t that part of the point of Nuevo? To make it more accessible?
So the assertion that Nuevo dancers are more expert than others is false. It just happens that most of those learning nuevo in the past have been the more experienced dancers. However, if we look around, people far less experienced than the experts are learning nuevo. I know people in my community who are working on colgadas and they don?t even know how to do turns well. Nor can they dance milonguero, well. Again, it suggests that Nuevo, in and of itself, is not a more advanced form of tango. In fact, I know several excellent nuevo teachers who do not really dance milonguero all that well. They do okay, but it's not the same energy.
As for my own skill level, I do quite well as a follower in nuevo, including the double ganchos and lifts in S & M?s video. I admit I can't get my leg as high as Mariana. As a leader, I do fine with the typical nuevo moves, as well, and take advanced nuevo classes as a leader (though I probably wouldn't at a Chicho or Sebastian workshop). For me, it?s not a question of skill level. It?s simply recognizing that there?s a distinct difference.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 10:41:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) Addendum
Sorry for the additional post, but I should have stated that the phrase "Tango Categories" in the title was something I added and not part of Peter's original document. I simply thought that it would be a nice designation so that readers can organize their emails and thoughts a bit more easily.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:11:54 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3
Final
Congratulations Peter Esser. Very interesting post. It's a really fascinating topic for me. Probably analy so.
>>From the outset I'd like to say that most of the essay went over my head, so if I've drawn an incorrect perspective on some theories, please forgive me. But does it help me understand what tango is? Is there a difference between categorising and defining? For example if I crossed a tractor with a tricycle, would the outcome fall within both categories tractor and tricycle? Or simply under a broader cluster category such as machine. What effect on categorisation would additional data such as tractor category in existence for 100 years, tricycle category in existence 10 years? Would it simply remain in the general definition of the cluster? Whilst I've chosen an obviously idiotic example for purposes of illustration, surely everyone would agree that the resultant progeny would most likely not be pleasing to the young child or the farmer. But no doubt would produce devotees of the new form. So in my opinion categorisation doesn't answer the increasingly difficult questions of !
what is tango. I believe it is in urgent need of some form of definition.
Anton
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 21:38:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3
Final
> From: Anton Stanley anton@alidas.com.au
?So in my opinion categorisation doesn't
> answer the increasingly difficult questions of !
> what is tango. I believe it is in urgent need of some form of definition.
>
IMHO, this is getting a little silly and overly intellectualised.?
'Argentine Tango' is an Argentine artform and they have 2 categories -
Social Tango and Tango Escenario. Most of us on this list are non-Argentine
amateur dancers interested in Social Tango and, if you want to know what it?
is, just walk into any of the?20 or so milongas that are held every day in BsAs
and you'll see people dancing Tango. It's not a secret; it's in the open for all
to see.?In other parts of the city you might find dance events called practicas
where people dance something called 'Nuevo'.?So if you want to categorise
or define something, I suggest you change your question to 'What is Nuevo?'
Is it a new category of Tango or is it something else? Just because people
outside Argentina dance Nuevo in their milongas doesn't necessarily make
it Tango. Tango is a dance of the Argentine people?and the tangueros of
Argentina have already defined Social Tango by what they dance in their
milongas. Who are we non-Argentines to even question that?
Many social dancers outside Argentina also like to incorporate some
well-known elements of Escenario, which were formerly part of Social
Tango in BsAs,?such as Ganchos, Arristre, Lapiz, Sandwich, etc. They're
combining?the 2 categories of Tango - Social and Escenario, so it's still
Tango.
But, 'What is Nuevo' is the question, not 'What is Tango'
Jack
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 01:18:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - ...
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I for one think Jack hit the nail smack on the head with his post.
What do they call it again when you stare at some words and they become,
through short contemplation, grotesque absurdities?
"What is tango" when asked by a tango dancer should get that person
banished to a milonga dj-ed by a person who only plays music that you've
never heard before because he thinks everyone should be tired of hearing
the same music over and over.
(I know of such a twisted individual. Without doubt, the World's Worst DJ).
:-)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 06:24:04 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango? II
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>
Style is:
a particular kind, sort, or type, as with reference to form, appearance, or character: the baroque style; The style of the house was too austere for their liking.
When we talk of tango styles we have to say that there is an infinite number of tango styles, each person eventually dances his own style.
There are styles that are danced only by one person and there are styles that are danced by many persons.
There are styles that are very popular, and others that are a rarity.
What causes a style to become popular? - the fact that somebody starts to teach that particular style and creates a number of followers willing to dance in that particular form, and eventually to teach it to other dancers.
In Argentina people divide tango 1- as Salon : the one used for social dancing and 2- Stage, the one to use on stage for exhibitions.
Salon includes different styles, some rare, same very popular.
Tango tradicional as it is danced in my neighborhood of Villa Urquiza.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo Elegant attire. Embrace in V. Close or open according to necessity.
Long steps. Use of firuletes (embellishments) boleos, amagues, ganchos, dibujos, walked turns with sacadas, etc.
Used for social dancing or for exhibitions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v×HmCGjYRYE Tango tradicional. Social dancing .
Estilo Milonguero 9Milonguero Style) : As danced in Downtown Buenos Aires.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylw2Qw20DOo Formal attire, step length according to available space, usually small. Embrace is closed, it can be more framed in front of each other, the embrace is closed throughout the dance. Simpler steps adjusted to the lack of space and the close embrace. use of ocho cortado o milonguero.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUOJls_t_VY&feature=related
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zwA2um5rq0
Estilo Canyengue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtTGni9kGYM A historical style, danced in time of my grand parents.
Embrace in V, more apilado, both partners looking in the same direction and to the floor in front of them.
Left hand of the man at waist level. Small, rhythmic steps. Improvised with a different choreography.
Tango Nuevo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyZq6sOLI0g Semiformal or informal attire, style preferred by young people.
Open embrace, use of special technique for leading and following, use of unique technique for teaching,
use of all the available firuletes (embellishments), utilization of a wide variety of tango music, non traditional and on occasions even non tango music.
Tango Elegante - Orlando Paiva - This would be a style that is not very popular. Orlando paiva is from Rosario, not from Buenos Aires it has taught in the USA, mostly in California and has a small group of followers in Argentina.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSPW4lqF7qg The gentleman with white hair dancing with the lady in violet dress. this is a very elegant variation of Tango tradicional.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjpJhWFHCKA&feature=related Orlando Paiva dancing at Sunderland in Villa Urquiza. Long steps, embellishments, formal attire, great elegance, long steps, stepping toes first.
Best regards, Sergio
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
https://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=PID23384::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:NF_BR_sync:082009
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 03:13:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keith Elshaw" <keith@totango.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] What is tango? II
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I'm a big fan of Sergio's postings. Can't help it.
In the last, which included all those videos, one jumped-out at me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXU9nojcFQo
In my heart of hearts, I wish more demonstration tango was shown this way.
They are doing a "show" - but it's tango-tango. Doing the fine-line thing
very well.
Nice choice of music.
The woman - I don't care if she doesn't have a name, I love her - can wrap
her arms around me any-old time.
The man is dancing tango. It isn't choreographed (he kind of almost misses
the ending) but it is true and I wish people around the world could see
this kind of thing.
I find this dance sweet. Doing a lot without struggling to. Making a show
without trying to. Etc.
Thanks, Sergio.
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 10:21:31 -0300
From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3
Final
<a6baf9ab0908050621w74bab107t94fa5fba2b86e0fe@mail.gmail.com>
thanks for this clarifying comment - as I observe all the ideas about
what "Tango is" - I think - for the most part, it is something to be
experienced and felt and "should" not be analyzed that much. Like , do
you wask ourselves "what is poetry?" or "what is the scent of a rose?
" or " what is making love?" - it is - and here a bit of a feminine
perspective - clearly, a very male approach trying to dissect almost
scientifically in the head that what is to be experienced and felt,
after all. because this is where the essence and beauty is, not in the
fragments or parts or steps, but in the experience of something much
more whole. As this is what compels us in the first place. recall that
first time seeing a Tango couple, ad the sense inside "WOW" - WHAT is
that?" THAT was a feeling, a sense of something one was fascinated and
could not quite grasp . . . And while trying to figure out what it is
- bingo, one gets lost in the parts, steps, taking it apart to a
degree where then it is not longer what it is. Like what we see in
NUEVO. If you openly ask "What is Nuev?" versus "What is Tango" do you
think more people would be compelled reading about NUEVO, or reading
about TANGO? And why is that?? Finally, when you finally get it
"right" - then what? Are you gonna then "own" it? "DO" it better?
Even the best dancers in this world today - they have not "arrived" or
own it. They are still always rediscovering and advancing. And who do
they look for? To copy from whom? take classes from whom? No, those
people invent. Just like in any art, after knowing the basic
technique, it is about creativity. Imagination. That kind of outcome -
in my opinion - should not even be copied. But that is personal
perspective and everyone needs to decide that on their own.
Bettina
On 8/5/09, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Anton Stanley anton@alidas.com.au
> So in my opinion categorisation doesn't
>> answer the increasingly difficult questions of !
>> what is tango. I believe it is in urgent need of some form of definition.
>>
>
> IMHO, this is getting a little silly and overly intellectualised.
>
> 'Argentine Tango' is an Argentine artform and they have 2 categories -
> Social Tango and Tango Escenario. Most of us on this list are non-Argentine
> amateur dancers interested in Social Tango and, if you want to know what it
> is, just walk into any of the 20 or so milongas that are held every day in
> BsAs
> and you'll see people dancing Tango. It's not a secret; it's in the open for
> all
> to see. In other parts of the city you might find dance events called
> practicas
> where people dance something called 'Nuevo'. So if you want to categorise
> or define something, I suggest you change your question to 'What is Nuevo?'
> Is it a new category of Tango or is it something else? Just because people
> outside Argentina dance Nuevo in their milongas doesn't necessarily make
> it Tango. Tango is a dance of the Argentine people and the tangueros of
> Argentina have already defined Social Tango by what they dance in their
> milongas. Who are we non-Argentines to even question that?
>
> Many social dancers outside Argentina also like to incorporate some
> well-known elements of Escenario, which were formerly part of Social
> Tango in BsAs, such as Ganchos, Arristre, Lapiz, Sandwich, etc. They're
> combining the 2 categories of Tango - Social and Escenario, so it's still
> Tango.
>
> But, 'What is Nuevo' is the question, not 'What is Tango'
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 06:45:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3
Final
Thank you Bettina for writing what I imagine many are thinking to themselves.
I would only like to add that tango is musical, lyrical, and dance expression of the culture which gave it and continues to give it its essence and so it evolves as the culture does.
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:07:48 -0300
From: bettina maria fahlbusch <bettinamaria7@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: What is Tango?
<a6baf9ab0908050707i2ab506a3oeb7c3dcb1336a355@mail.gmail.com>
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 11:07:15 -0300
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3 Final
To: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Thank you! The only question really is that the culture at that time
in Argentina was a mix of many cultures, the fact that all those
thousands of Immigrants arrived and had no work, being stuck in the
streets created the very base for the Tango . . . I love that you say
it is lyrical and musical . . .
On 8/5/09, Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thank you Bettina for writing what I imagine many are thinking to
> themselves.
> I would only like to add that tango is musical, lyrical, and dance
> expression of the culture which gave it and continues to give it its essence
> and so it evolves as the culture does.
> ===================================
> seek, appreciate, and create beauty
> this life is not a rehearsal
> ===================================
>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 15:37:01 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
From: "johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk" <johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3
Final
To: "anton@alidas.com.au" <anton@alidas.com.au>, Tangolist
<tango-L@mit.edu>
Combined tractor/tricycles do exist. Look at these pics:
https://www.fwi.co.uk/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID808910
https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2423/3626840725_cf66454fd8.jpg
.
https://www.fowlkesrealtyandauction.com/images/1918-case-3-wheel-rare.
jpg
John Ward
Bristol, UK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Sent: Wednesday, August 05, 2009 1:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What is Tango? (Or Tango Categories) - Part 3
Final
(part)
For example if I crossed a tractor with a tricycle, would the outcome
fall
within both categories tractor and tricycle?
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