4782 Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:12:34 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
This is just my thought that dancers should be the ones to tell what music
is good for tango dancing and what is not.
Why. Obviously, most of us can not play nor to conduct an orchestra.
The difference is that I believe we feel the music much deeper than
musicians.
We feel the music with the whole of our body. Every part reverberates and
goes with rhythmical lines. Legs follow one rhythm, body - another one. One
step - is the whole fugure in tango. It means it has to be the whole musical
figure every beat. A new one every beat! And it takes energy to move ! Our
feeling is tailored to physical properties of our bodies and parts. Our
brain waves are aligned to the music AND to our body parts, our heart beats
in unison. We feel music with every cell.
And we do it tightly coupled together. We lead each other, and we play with
each other - to music.
We know much better what music is good what is not: our body tells us that
unmistakenly.
We know how to play along with music. We play music with our bodies. We do
act sometimes as members of the orchestra. And we do know how to compensate
for the bad music. But we do not want to. We want perfect creative unison
with musicians. We want music which is driving us toward creative frontiers
in our most complex dance.
I do not want to hurt any feeling, I only want musicians to consider what I
say. And follow the examples.
Igor Polk
PS
I do not know how to highlight it more:
IT HAS TO BE THE WHOLE MUSICAL FIGURE EVERY BEAT PERIOD, A NEW ONE !
Because one step is a figure in tango.
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:19:18 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Igor Polk wrote:
>This is just my thought that dancers should be the ones to tell what music
>is good for tango dancing and what is not.
>
>
>
?! (cleaning off monitor) I've really got to stop reading these posts
when I drink coffee.
>Why. Obviously, most of us can not play nor to conduct an orchestra.
>The difference is that I believe we feel the music much deeper than
>musicians.
>
This coupled with your previous post
>"Pity it is that nobody cornered
>Canaro and the others and had them write a How-To book... Of course,
>since these guys were in it as a business they would not be happy about
>giving up their secrets either I suspect."
>
>
>>- What secrets do you need, a musician?
>>Take original records of Canaro himself and listen. There is no more in this
>>that what one would hear.
>
I guess imply that music is far too hard to be left to us musicians. The
recent post about a 3 year study program to become a tango musician in
BA must also be missing this too.
>We feel the music with the whole of our body.
>
Are you sure you feel it the same way I do? When was the last time you
got chills listening to music? How about a bit of vertigo? Some pieces I
really have to lie down for (Prokofiev Piano Concert #2 comes to mind.)
Ever hear a piece that made you just stop in your tracks? Mozart was
famous for improvising music that would literally pertrify anyone in
earshot. (Very famous incident of this happened when he was just a tyke:
he shut down a whole Franciscan monastery when got bored and hopped on
the organ
https://rmc.library.cornell.edu/mozart/images_imagined/Cherub_Genius_pic.htm.)
I appreciate you like music, but I take strong exception that you know
how I feel when I listen to it. Sorry. Being able to perceive music as a
musician does is not a skill acquired lightly and MRI scans show a vast
difference in brain activity between musicians and non-musicians.
*Maybe* you get this too. Maybe.
Dance music has to be written with a strong and obvious beat or dancers
won't be able to find it. That is why I decided to write some because it
imposes very strict technical demands on the author. No phrases of odd
length, no weird meters, no strange chord progressions. None of the
favorite toys that always up the interest level. You have been so
spoiled by the greats -- who make it *seem* effortless -- that you think
it is effortless.
If an onlooker sees you dancing and you tell him you've been practicing
for years. What do you do when he responds thus: "but it's just walking,
you don't need to practice. I can walk better than you." He is right,
that tango is basically walking, but that little bit of truth is wide of
the mark. This is, in essence, what you did in your posts. I know you
meant well, but that is not at all how it came off.
Properly, I think that if one is writing dance music one needs feedback
>from dancers -- this probably what you wanted to say, right? I know it
is far to easy for me to write something that only I can dance to
because I can find a beat where most people can't. As I dabble in
penning some from time to time I *do* ask the community for their
indulgence and am extremely thankful for the help I receive. (BTW Thank
you one and all again for your comments on my pieces. You're really
great people.) Who knows, maybe one of these days I'll get it right
even. :o>
Cheers,
Jeff G
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:43:01 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
:) I am glad to answer you Jeff, my pleasure !
Jeff wrote:
>Igor:This is just my thought that dancers should be the ones to tell what
music
>is good for tango dancing and what is not.
?! (cleaning off monitor) I've really got to stop reading these posts
when I drink coffee.
Igor:
- Obviously you think otherwise :) Sorry, that I have got you in a wrong
moment.
Jeff:
>Igor:We feel the music with the whole of our body.
>
Are you sure you feel it the same way I do?
No, our way is more elaborate. That is what I think and that is exactly what
I wanted to convey in my message why I think so.
Jeff:
Some pieces I really have to lie down for (Prokofiev Piano Concert #2 comes
to mind.)
Igor: Yes, I experience the same. My latest favorite is Giovanni Platti,
Concerto in G minor.
Also I have found a classical guitarist Gerald Garcia: "Brazilian Portrait"
>from Naxos.
Not to speak that I want to dance to them.
Jeff:
Being able to perceive music as a
musician does is not a skill acquired lightly and MRI scans show a vast
difference in brain activity between musicians and non-musicians.
*Maybe* you get this too. Maybe.
Igor:
Have they measured Tango Dancers?
When I said "We feel the music with the whole of our body" I did not mean a
metaphor. I mean we do in reality - we dance. We move. With the whole of our
body and all parts of it. We materialize the music ! I hope you will take a
minute of time to read the rest of my message where I tried to describe very
shortly what happens in us. And what we want in music.
Jeff:
Dance music has to be written with a strong and obvious beat or dancers
won't be able to find it.
Igor: No Jeff, it is absolutely not true. I wonder why you think about Tango
Dancers this way? Hm... very negative.. We like the beat, but what you have
said is wrong. Bad dancers can not find the beat no matter how strong it is.
But we are good dancers.
Jeff:
That is why I decided to write some because it [Dance music]
imposes very strict technical demands on the author. No phrases of odd
length, no weird meters, no strange chord progressions.
Igor: Jeff, you sound like it is you who looses the beat in all your
"phrases of odd length, weird meters and strange chord progressions". All of
those are perfectly valid as soon as you do not loose the essence of dancing
music. Weird meters... One of the best dancing music ever existed, Brazilian
Samba and the real Cuban Rumba have very weird meters and polyrhythm, and
that what makes it great!
"Strict technical demands"... Yes ! You must find a way to express
complexity, novelty, and impress within the frame of this "strict demands".
And that is good ! No cheap tricks, please !
The strict demands are put on us by our way of physical existence and
abilities ( maximum of them ). Musicians who do not take it in account are
easily carried away from what dancers need. But it does not mean we, dancers
want simple music, we want complex music, very complex music. But with
"strict demands" put upon it.
Jeff:
Properly, I think that if one is writing dance music one needs feedback
>from dancers -- this probably what you wanted to say, right?
Igor: Right. But also I am not telling you how to write music. I can not.
Let old records to tell you that.
Enjoyed your post,
Igor
PS
I have said "We materialize the music"
I think musicians pretty much do the same like we: They dance with their
fingers and bodies and breath - it is dance of theirs. A good musician is a
dancer ! This way we are very similar.
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:58:37 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com> writes:
> This is just my thought that dancers should be the ones
> to tell what music is good for tango dancing and what is not.
If by "tell" you mean pick out which tangos
in the repertoire are better to play for dancing,
I'd go along with that.
> The difference is that I believe we feel the music much
> deeper than musicians.
My dear friend. Musicians feel the music much
deeper than 95% of the dancers. And the other 5%
of dancers are also musicians themselves. :)
Go to a milonga in many parts of the world,
and you're liable to find that half the dancers on
the floor can't feel the music at all. For that
unfortunate lot, the music is just so much background
noise, innocuous at best, or perhaps even a bit of an
annoyance--if it's turned up "too loud"--that
interferes with their banal chit-chat as they dance
along, mostly oblivious.
I ask you, kind sir--when was the last time you
saw musicians idly gabbing as they played a tango?
Ah, you haven't--didn't think so. It seems to me
that the least everyone in one classification of
people can do is pay attention to a thing in the first
place before that group can ever hope to even begin to
qualify as people who feel said thing more than the
people in another group.
Huck
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:08:57 -0500
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Igor,
That is the largest crock of hooey I have ever heard. It shows one very
important thing, you have very little understanding of music creation or
performance other than playing a record. While dancers can not play music ,
musicians can still move to music, even badly. You seem to believe that we
just regurgitate sheet music and arrangements? Even when we don't play ala
parilla, we constantly create. Don't forget that dance is in trouble with
out music but, music lives quite happily with out dancers. Therefore, if you
want to even remotely talk on a musical level and actually cooperate, you
should realize you don't know the music. Only the reaction to it. Now with
that said I do not believe it's abut one telling the other but, working
together. So the attitude has got to change and I'm not seeing an issue from
the musician point of view because, it seems we're asking for input whereas
statements like yours don't speak of input but, of "I'm going to tell you
just how it should be done". That's an attitude of arrogance and if you can
back that up with knowledge, then at least it carries weight but, if you
can't then it just does nothing for the progress of dancer/musician
cooperation.
As for learning music from old records, that's only a small snap shot and
not a total tuition of a musical style.
-A
> From: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:12:34 -0800
> To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not otherwise
>
> This is just my thought that dancers should be the ones to tell what music
> is good for tango dancing and what is not.
>
> Why. Obviously, most of us can not play nor to conduct an orchestra.
> The difference is that I believe we feel the music much deeper than
> musicians.
> We feel the music with the whole of our body. Every part reverberates and
> goes with rhythmical lines. Legs follow one rhythm, body - another one. One
> step - is the whole fugure in tango. It means it has to be the whole musical
> figure every beat. A new one every beat! And it takes energy to move ! Our
> feeling is tailored to physical properties of our bodies and parts. Our
> brain waves are aligned to the music AND to our body parts, our heart beats
> in unison. We feel music with every cell.
>
> And we do it tightly coupled together. We lead each other, and we play with
> each other - to music.
>
> We know much better what music is good what is not: our body tells us that
> unmistakenly.
>
> We know how to play along with music. We play music with our bodies. We do
> act sometimes as members of the orchestra. And we do know how to compensate
> for the bad music. But we do not want to. We want perfect creative unison
> with musicians. We want music which is driving us toward creative frontiers
> in our most complex dance.
>
> I do not want to hurt any feeling, I only want musicians to consider what I
> say. And follow the examples.
>
> Igor Polk
> PS
> I do not know how to highlight it more:
> IT HAS TO BE THE WHOLE MUSICAL FIGURE EVERY BEAT PERIOD, A NEW ONE !
> Because one step is a figure in tango.
>
>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:46:25 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
ye-as, Huck, there is some merit in your letter which I can agree,
but keeping like this we are going in a circuit here.
I mean dancers already tell musicians what music is the best:
Every best milonga I was, and I was told it is like that in Buenos Aires
too, they play old tangos 1920-1952.
And everyone says that Piazzollas of all sorts, Alternatives and so on is
for an intermission or for super-advanced ballerinas. Just some fun before
diving into more of real Tango.
Even when I was a beginner I have attended a milonga where the DJ played
mostly tango of 1960-1970s. I guess he was attracted by good audio quality
of those records, stereo, and so on. And those were very good musicians.
Probably better than those who play now. But, when he sometime played older
tangos, scratchy records, I felt as if it was another world !
My legs, my body jumped into dancing. Themselves. I did not have to coerce
myself to make a dance - music took care about it. That is the power of old,
you can say right records - they curry a blueprint for dancing! Music
directly appeals to our bones and muscles and spinal brain - that is the
power of it. We do not have to know music - our body knows it.
Later I have found that I was right. Old music IS better. It is better for
beginners, easier to learn with, and the more one progresses the more depth
is found in the same pieces: it is better for advanced dancing too. It is
magical.
To continue the story about this DJ, he dj-es much more of old music now,
but I do not think he has understood why. He just follows the demands of
dancing crowd. Good. Dancers not just should judge musicians. They do !
Dancers do become better and DJ-music becomes better. It is easy to predict
the direction. And those musicians who see it will ultimately win.
Igor
Dear AJ,
I wish you success. I do not really know how do you create. But I know how
do I create in my dancing. I told you about it trying to stay in the
boundaries of philosophical words we both could understand. And I am telling
you ( and I am sure all other dancers will join ) that my creativity greatly
depends on the quality of your music.
You said that "dancers can not play music, musicians can still move to
music, even badly." Put aside my view that musicians "dance" when they play,
it is too controversial, I can tell you
that while playing music you do not really know how to dance. Your "dance"
is primitive movement. While we can dance to any music. And as the Tango
Dancers, let it not surprise you, we can dance tango without any music at
all ! That is what advanced tango dancers can do. We play music with our own
bodies ! And I can assure you it is of very high quality.
You want us "to cooperate"? I am helping with what I can: I ask you to
research old music because that is what we consider the best. If you do not
accept even this simple advice, what else can we talk about?
You wrote: "As for learning music from old records, that's only a small snap
shot and
not a total tuition of a musical style."
As a dancer, I do not care about other musical styles. Only styles which I
value. Those I am driven to dance with.
I can help you telling you that old tango music for dancing has at least 4
distinctive musical styles. Do you know them? Do you want to know them?
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 02:30:26 -0500
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Unfortunately Igor your comprehension of my reply read in to it many things
that are no in fact there and also misconstrued many of my statements.
Firstly to discuss music philosophically is basically a dead end discussion
in the way of causally understanding it.
Secondly while dance is complex and involves creativity it does not involve
as much in the way of complexity when it comes to theory and the creation of
it. As complicated a I am sure your dance may be it can not live with out
the music which by the way in fact began said dance. Dance in a vacuum of no
music is no dance at all. Just movement. It can be musical but, only one
part of music. Rhythm. You do not create melody or harmony. That is the
total sum of a music. No poetic descriptions of dance can change that.
\
Absolutely dance quality will be a direct reaction to music quality. No
disagreement there.
What you ask me to do in researching old music I do daily but, it shows a
very simplistic understanding of what a musical genre is comprised if. It
takes a lot more than analyzing a few recordings. That is my point. To tell
us to listen to some recordings shows a very cursory pedestrian
understanding of what goes in to the creation and performance of music. A
recording is just one snap shot of a total style. I am speaking of the style
of old tango only. Listening to old recordings will only cause to parrot
back copies of said music. We're not here to be a recording and therefore,
must be able to see more than just a snap shot of a music. This is where
having some sort of books, etc. would make the difference. Tuition of a
musical style takes more than just listening.
This is where you turn me off:
Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not otherwise
Who appoints these judges?
That's not cooperation. It's you saying "we know best" when clearly unless
you are both an accomplished dancer AND musician you don't. I don't claim to
know either side with out fault. Neither should you. Sure I'd love to hear
your idea of the 4 styles. Share with me don't talk at me or dictate and
certainly is all I ask.
_A
> Dear AJ,
> I wish you success. I do not really know how do you create. But I know how
> do I create in my dancing. I told you about it trying to stay in the
> boundaries of philosophical words we both could understand. And I am telling
> you ( and I am sure all other dancers will join ) that my creativity greatly
> depends on the quality of your music.
>
> You said that "dancers can not play music, musicians can still move to
> music, even badly." Put aside my view that musicians "dance" when they play,
> it is too controversial, I can tell you
> that while playing music you do not really know how to dance. Your "dance"
> is primitive movement. While we can dance to any music. And as the Tango
> Dancers, let it not surprise you, we can dance tango without any music at
> all ! That is what advanced tango dancers can do. We play music with our own
> bodies ! And I can assure you it is of very high quality.
>
> You want us "to cooperate"? I am helping with what I can: I ask you to
> research old music because that is what we consider the best. If you do not
> accept even this simple advice, what else can we talk about?
>
> You wrote: "As for learning music from old records, that's only a small snap
> shot and
> not a total tuition of a musical style."
>
> As a dancer, I do not care about other musical styles. Only styles which I
> value. Those I am driven to dance with.
>
> I can help you telling you that old tango music for dancing has at least 4
> distinctive musical styles. Do you know them? Do you want to know them?
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:12 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Igor wrote:
> dancers should be the ones to tell what music
> is good for tango dancing and what is not.
They should and they are. Dancers say when music is good for dancing by
dancing to it. They say when it is not good for dancing by not dancing to
it. Musicians listen... or are soon out of a job. ;)
Jeff wrote:
> MRI scans show a vast difference in brain activity
> between musicians and non-musicians.
Well, no sh*t! And no surprise then that asking musicians whether music is
good for dancing is no substitute for asking dancers.
> [dance music] imposes very strict technical demands on the author.
> ... None of the favorite toys that always up the interest level.
Dance music uses plenty of toys that up the interest - to dancers. Just
that they are rarely the same toys that are the favourites of non-dancers.
> You have been so spoiled by the greats -- who make it *seem*
> effortless -- that you think it is effortless.
Thing is Jeff, for us it is effortless - load Great CD, hit Play. ;)
You have a hard act to follow! Good luck! ;)
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not otherwise
*From:* Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
*To:* Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
*Date:* Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:19:18 -0500
Igor Polk wrote:
>This is just my thought that dancers should be the ones to tell what music
>is good for tango dancing and what is not.
>
>
>
?! (cleaning off monitor) I've really got to stop reading these posts
when I drink coffee.
>Why. Obviously, most of us can not play nor to conduct an orchestra.
>The difference is that I believe we feel the music much deeper than
>musicians.
>
This coupled with your previous post
>"Pity it is that nobody cornered
>Canaro and the others and had them write a How-To book... Of course,
>since these guys were in it as a business they would not be happy about
>giving up their secrets either I suspect."
>
>
>>- What secrets do you need, a musician?
>>Take original records of Canaro himself and listen. There is no more in this
>>that what one would hear.
>
I guess imply that music is far too hard to be left to us musicians. The
recent post about a 3 year study program to become a tango musician in
BA must also be missing this too.
>We feel the music with the whole of our body.
>
Are you sure you feel it the same way I do? When was the last time you
got chills listening to music? How about a bit of vertigo? Some pieces I
really have to lie down for (Prokofiev Piano Concert #2 comes to mind.)
Ever hear a piece that made you just stop in your tracks? Mozart was
famous for improvising music that would literally pertrify anyone in
earshot. (Very famous incident of this happened when he was just a tyke:
he shut down a whole Franciscan monastery when got bored and hopped on
the organ
https://rmc.library.cornell.edu/mozart/images_imagined/Cherub_Genius_pic.htm.)
I appreciate you like music, but I take strong exception that you know
how I feel when I listen to it. Sorry. Being able to perceive music as a
musician does is not a skill acquired lightly and MRI scans show a vast
difference in brain activity between musicians and non-musicians.
*Maybe* you get this too. Maybe.
Dance music has to be written with a strong and obvious beat or dancers
won't be able to find it. That is why I decided to write some because it
imposes very strict technical demands on the author. No phrases of odd
length, no weird meters, no strange chord progressions. None of the
favorite toys that always up the interest level. You have been so
spoiled by the greats -- who make it *seem* effortless -- that you think
it is effortless.
If an onlooker sees you dancing and you tell him you've been practicing
for years. What do you do when he responds thus: "but it's just walking,
you don't need to practice. I can walk better than you." He is right,
that tango is basically walking, but that little bit of truth is wide of
the mark. This is, in essence, what you did in your posts. I know you
meant well, but that is not at all how it came off.
Properly, I think that if one is writing dance music one needs feedback
>from dancers -- this probably what you wanted to say, right? I know it
is far to easy for me to write something that only I can dance to
because I can find a beat where most people can't. As I dabble in
penning some from time to time I *do* ask the community for their
indulgence and am extremely thankful for the help I receive. (BTW Thank
you one and all again for your comments on my pieces. You're really
great people.) Who knows, maybe one of these days I'll get it right
even. :o>
Cheers,
Jeff G
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:45:45 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Aj,
You said:
"Dance in a vacuum of no music is no dance at all. Just movement. It can be
musical but, only one
part of music. Rhythm. You do not create melody or harmony."
Yet rhythm alone. It is said that tango has a very reach rhythm. And there
is much more than rhythm in tango dancing. Of course, we can not make
neither melody nor harmony.
When you listen to complex rhythms produced on sets of drums, like Brazilian
Samba, and other genres, one does have an impression that this is music not
else. The same with us.
When we dance without music it is so intense..
I can not tell you what note to play after what, but I do have more grounds
to tell you what constitutes good tango music and what is not. While
dancing, I do listen to the best pieces of music of various styles and play
along with the whole of my body, not just listen. I am a part of that
orchestra ! Let it be only a drum part. But a part ! I do feel most subtle
notes and variations, it reverberates in me. And when a musician says to me
here is the music, dance to it - I say, I can not, I do not want to, sorry,
it is not right, it feels wrong, believe me, I know what I am talking about
even though I am not able to express it in musical terms.
The whole classes of movements are tailored to subtle elements of tango
music. If the music lucks it - it is not tango !
I understand that there is time to pass until new DiSarli is matured, but I
want to see in musicians the movement into the right direction. And I know
many do move there.
Aj: "Listening to old recordings will only cause to parrot back copies of
said music"
Well, if it is so easy to parrot them - do it ! Show that you are able to
parrot it. We only will applaude ! Then move to new frontiers. And we will
applaude too.
But if you are not there yet, what can one say? You want to prove theorems
of high math without finishing high school yet?
Parroting... Many pieces of old music may sound similar. Yet they are
different. I strongly feel there is unlimited creative space in tango. You
do not want to copy, you want to make your own style. I understand. But for
that one has to have a solid foundation to start from. If your music is
intended to be tango, you should start with the best foundation, that is the
way to success, not trying building the foundation yourself. Do you want to
be another Piazzolla or to have success like Piazzolla? Then start not from
him. Start where he started.
My "No poetic descriptions of dance" are not poetic. They are real. We do
have "legato" and "staccato". And many other things. That is what I am
trying to tell.
AJ: "researching old music I do daily". "Sure I'd love to hear your idea of
the 4 styles."
Good ! Thank you! Than I hope you can check those 4 very distinctive musical
styles of old music:
I could call them Salon of 1920s, Canyengue, Orillero, and
Milonguero-Apilado. Plenty of records available. As soon as music starts a
dancer should unmistakenly point you to the difference. Of course, there are
pieces which remind 2 styles.
To check them, you do not need many CDs. Check DiSarli from 1920 to 1940s.
D'Arienzo has a lot of orillero. Firpo and Canaro have great examples of
Canyengue. Many musicians with long music life played in several of these
styles. All of them have different dancing feel ( and should be danced
differently, but that is for us, dancers ! ). Of course, musical styles
directly correspond to dancing styles. Music and dancing were being created
cooperativelly at those times as everyone points out.
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 05:45:20 -0500
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
Boooring , guess what eventually you will tire of the CD and if you piss on
the musicians along the way you'll be quite bored with what you have left.
CDs get scratched, mp3s aack awful quality, musicians grow and learn, That
means it's a growing art. If not half your art is old and stale. If you're
happy with that, more power to you.
-A
>> You have been so spoiled by the greats -- who make it *seem*
>> effortless -- that you think it is effortless.
>
> Thing is Jeff, for us it is effortless - load Great CD, hit Play. ;)
>
> You have a hard act to follow! Good luck! ;)
>
> Chris
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 06:12:06 -0500
From: AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
You misunderstand me. What you describe is transcription and we could write
everything down and regurgitate it. I happen to enjoy that but, my point is
not that I want to create something new. My point is transcription does not
give a total understanding of the music. Only a snap shot of the specific
piece It doe snot teach how to arrange the music, etc. That is my point.
If you want good danceable music then you can not have the musician just
regurgitate old arrangements. There must be room for rearrangement. To
re-arrange authentically one must understand more than the specific
recording. SO a huge survey of recordings can help but, not fully.
My orchestra (yes orchestra) is a varied group of instruments performing
all music from 1900-1940s which includes hot jazz, gypsy jazz, french
musette, tango, hawaiian music, latin, etc. So we spend a lot of time
listening AND analyzing but, with the lack of anythign but, recorded
material for tango it becomes quite tough to not only reproduce the old but,
to add a bit of new juice so as to keep it fresh, A good musician knows how
to balance a bit of personal creativity and input with some purity and
authenticity. Actual arrangement scores as well as method books would make
things easier. Dancers supporting such endeavors would go great lengths to
getting the music they want played. The musicians may very well be better
than the ones of the past. They only need the tools to interpret the music
properly.
For the record I tend to prefer music pre-195s for performing. Although, I
listen, compose and perform in most styles.
_A
> Aj: "Listening to old recordings will only cause to parrot back copies of
> said music"
>
> Well, if it is so easy to parrot them - do it ! Show that you are able to
> parrot it. We only will applaude ! Then move to new frontiers. And we will
> applaude too.
> But if you are not there yet, what can one say? You want to prove theorems
> of high math without finishing high school yet?
>
> Parroting... Many pieces of old music may sound similar. Yet they are
> different. I strongly feel there is unlimited creative space in tango. You
> do not want to copy, you want to make your own style. I understand. But for
> that one has to have a solid foundation to start from. If your music is
> intended to be tango, you should start with the best foundation, that is the
> way to success, not trying building the foundation yourself. Do you want to
> be another Piazzolla or to have success like Piazzolla? Then start not from
> him. Start where he started.
>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 00:07:18 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango
nototherwise
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> AJ: "researching old music I do daily". "Sure I'd love to hear your idea
of
> the 4 styles."
>
Igor:> Good ! Thank you! Than I hope you can check those 4 very distinctive
musical
> styles of old music:
> I could call them Salon of 1920s, Canyengue, Orillero, and
> Milonguero-Apilado. Plenty of records available. As soon as music starts a
> dancer should unmistakenly point you to the difference. Of course, there
are
> pieces which remind 2 styles.
>
AJ:
"while you can have musical elements no one will sit down and
listen to dance"
Igor: Really?
Well, at least my partner will. Do I need other spectactors?
Gentlemen, methjinks, this discussion is getting more and more abstruse. So,
if I understood this correctly, we have here a dancer who says he makes
music with his body, and claims to sometimes make better music than the
musician, in fact, does not even need a musician to do so, and advocates
that dancers should decide what is good music and what isn't.
Then we have the musician who says, only a musician can really feel the
music, and those dancers who are able to feel it, are usually musicians as
well.
And then we have Igor again, who now says that he can dance tango by himself
while his partner can sit down and listen to him dance.
Hm. Astrid, scratching her head, will not argue with AJs point that
musicians usually are able to hear music. Nor, that a dancing musician is
able to hear the music, and maybe better than a dancing non-musician. Now,
whether what the musician hears he is able to translate into appropriate
physicial movements, is another story, however. And, as a matter of fact,
whenever I have danced with some Argentine I often saw at milongas
(standing, chatting, drinking wine), and he danced kind of lankily and
trying to dance rather than actually dancing, quite a number of times, the
man apologised to me, whispering:"Actually, I am the guitarrist (violinist,
singer, cellist, whatever) here, I don't really dance tango..."
Does this mean, that dancers know more about music than musicians know about
music? Or dance? (to add confusion to the already puzzling logic in this
thread)
No, it doesn't. Dancers do not judge what is bad music. They only judge who
is a bad DJ.
And now, Igor, as to those "four styles of old music":
these are four styles of dance, not four styles of music. There is no
"apilado music". You can dance salon as well as milonguero/apilado to the
same music. Canyengue may be a dance as well as music, I am not sure [what
about the orchestra Sexteto Canyengue in Holland?] but who knows what
exactly was Canyengue anyway? Orillero is a dance (I doubt that they were
playing very different music in the suburbs than in the city centre). The
way to distinguish music is by the era it was written in and by the
composer. There is a further general disctinction between tango,vals and
milonga (which are dances as well as music, in case you still happen to be
awake after reading all this and will allow me to bore you a little
further), but no, there is also no modern distinction between "fantasia
music" and "milonga music".
Cheers
sigh
Astrid
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:37:08 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango
nototherwise
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
> AJ: "researching old music I do daily". "Sure I'd love to hear your idea
of
> the 4 styles."
>
Igor:> Good ! Thank you! Than I hope you can check those 4 very distinctive
musical
> styles of old music:
> I could call them Salon of 1920s, Canyengue, Orillero, and
> Milonguero-Apilado. Plenty of records available. As soon as music starts a
> dancer should unmistakenly point you to the difference. Of course, there
are
> pieces which remind 2 styles.
>
AJ:
"while you can have musical elements no one will sit down and
listen to dance"
Igor: Really?
Well, at least my partner will. Do I need other spectactors?
Gentlemen, methjinks, this discussion is getting more and more abstruse. So,
if I understood this correctly, we have here a dancer who says he makes
music with his body, and claims to sometimes make better music than the
musician, in fact, does not even need a musician to do so, and advocates
that dancers should decide what is good music and what isn't.
Then we have the musician who says, only a musician can really feel the
music, and those dancers who are able to feel it, are usually musicians as
well.
And then we have Igor again, who now says that he can dance tango by himself
while his partner can sit down and listen to him dance.
Hm. Astrid, scratching her head, will not argue with AJs point that
musicians usually are able to hear music. Nor, that a dancing musician is
able to hear the music, and maybe better than a dancing non-musician. Now,
whether what the musician hears he is able to translate into appropriate
physicial movements, is another story, however. And, as a matter of fact,
whenever I have danced with some Argentine I often saw at milongas
(standing, chatting, drinking wine), and he danced kind of lankily and
trying to dance rather than actually dancing, quite a number of times, the
man apologised to me, whispering:"Actually, I am the guitarrist (violinist,
singer, cellist, whatever) here, I don't really dance tango..."
Does this mean, that dancers know more about music than musicians know about
music? Or dance? (to add confusion to the already puzzling logic in this
thread)
No, it doesn't. Dancers do not judge what is bad music. They only judge who
is a bad DJ.
And now, Igor, as to those "four styles of old music":
these are four styles of dance, not four styles of music. There is no
"apilado music". You can dance salon as well as milonguero/apilado to the
same music. Canyengue may be a dance as well as music, I am not sure [what
about the orchestra Sexteto Canyengue in Holland?] but who knows what
exactly was Canyengue anyway? Orillero is a dance (I doubt that they were
playing very different music in the suburbs than in the city centre). The
way to distinguish music is by the era it was written in and by the
composer. There is a further general disctinction between tango,vals and
milonga (which are dances as well as music, in case you still happen to be
awake after reading all this and will allow me to bore you a little
further), but no, there is also no modern distinction between "fantasia
music" and "milonga music".
Cheers
sigh
Astrid
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:21:22 -0800
From: "anfractuoso x2" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600702281121t76d8b603kad1c614856899fba@mail.gmail.com>
On 2/28/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Of course, we can not make neither melody nor harmony.
> When you listen to complex rhythms produced on sets of drums, like Brazilian
> Samba, and other genres, one does have an impression that this is music not
> else. The same with us.
> When we dance without music it is so intense..
Hmm, this is kind of entertaining in a spaced-out way.. Let's take
your statement seriously for a second, as opposed to it being a poetic
expression, figure of speech, emotive imaging, etc.
I claim that you can't actually dance without music. ("Music" here
includes rhythm and/or melody and/or harmony - we have to include
rhythm as rhythm invariably gives you queues to musical pitches even
when you are not fully conscious of it.)
Let me explain: Start "dancing", but try very hard not to let your
brain give you a melody or a rhythm. No aural hallucinations (and of
course no music played). No sound waves, complete blank. Also don't
think of images of dancers or any other images that associate to
music.
I think you will find that it is very hard if not impossible to do
(this includes learning to be aware and not let music in
subconsciously). Try, while doing what you consider expressive
movements, to not let your brain queue you some soaring notes or other
musical queues. Try to erase your memory of music completely. And if
you eventually do succeed, even for a few seconds, you may find that
your "dancing" for that duration feels like ... well, not dancing...
just movements.
These movements do not have to be void of any meaning, just as
movements while crying, hitting a wall, other bodily expressions of
emotion do have meaning. But they are not dancing just as crying
movements are not dancing. So you can't dance without music.
Well, some people are not musical at all, so they move in a background
of music and call it dancing. No prizes for guessing if these people
find it easier or harder than others to switch different musical
backgrounds and keep making the same style movements.
We are all cultured, have learnt to perceive body movements as dancing
precisely because of the connection to expressing music. Take the
music away completely (see above), and dancing goes back to being a
body movement.
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:12:22 -0800
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
anfractuoso x2 said:
On 2/28/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Of course, we can not make neither melody nor harmony.
> When you listen to complex rhythms produced on sets of drums, like
Brazilian
> Samba, and other genres, one does have an impression that this is music
not
> else. The same with us.
> When we dance without music it is so intense..
I claim that you can't actually dance without music.
Exactly, Anfractuoso !
Without external music, but within - it is the whole orchestra is playing,
and my partner hears that !
That is why I am saying - we play music when we dance. It is not a figure of
speech.
Igor.
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:37:13 -0800
From: "anfractuoso x2" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600702281237h37c3b39dl3b885e33817614cd@mail.gmail.com>
Riiight... [scratching head in amused disbelief] So you chose to
delete/ignore my whole post except quoting only the first sentence
that you can interpret out of context to mean the same as what you
meant, thus reinforcing your poetic thesis. I am sorry but I don't
think even you are certain anymore what ideas you are replying to and
why, and how the reply makes logical sense and connection with the
posts you are replying to.. I think I might stop here (no personal
offence meant; I enjoy poetry very much and write it too)..
Best regards Igor
On 2/28/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
> anfractuoso x2 said:
>
> > I claim that you can't actually dance without music.
>
>
> Exactly, Anfractuoso !
> Without external music, but within - it is the whole orchestra is playing,
> and my partner hears that !
>
> That is why I am saying - we play music when we dance. It is not a figure of
> speech.
>
> Igor.
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:22 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not
otherwise
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net> wrote:
> [trad tango orchestras'] CDs get scratched,
We do keep backup copies, y'know! ;)
> Boooring , guess what eventually you will tire of the CD ...
> you'll be quite bored with what you have left.
I think that betrays a lack of understanding of the relationship between
the music and the social tango dancer. The great music's power is such to
continually change his/her dance experience through the interreactions
with each different partner, mood, situation...
...and even each return to the same piece. As the Zen saying goes, "A man
can never step into the same river twice".
Here's why it's the /new/ "tango" music that soon bores. Gotan, Narcotango
etc. just don't have this power. I doubt they'll last 5 years, let alone 50.
> If you want good danceable music then you can not have the musician just
> regurgitate old arrangements. ... To re-arrange authentically one must
Fine, but dancers aren't asking for the music to be 're-arranged'. It
seems the only people who are, are the re-arrangers themselves.
> musicians grow and learn
We live in hope... ;)
--
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango not otherwise
*From:* AJ Azure <azure.music@verizon.net>
*Date:* Wed, 28 Feb 2007 05:45:20 -0500
Boooring , guess what eventually you will tire of the CD and if you piss on
the musicians along the way you'll be quite bored with what you have left.
CDs get scratched, mp3s aack awful quality, musicians grow and learn, That
means it's a growing art. If not half your art is old and stale. If you're
happy with that, more power to you.
-A
>> You have been so spoiled by the greats -- who make it *seem*
>> effortless -- that you think it is effortless.
>
> Thing is Jeff, for us it is effortless - load Great CD, hit Play. ;)
>
> You have a hard act to follow! Good luck! ;)
>
> Chris
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 11:08 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango
nototherwise
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Astrid wrote:
> Dancers do not judge what is bad music. They only judge who is a bad DJ.
Well, hereabouts dancers judge bad music of any source - live band or DJ.
Good music, too.
> The way to distinguish music is by the era it was written in and by the
> composer.
Does not work at all. Compare Gallo Ciego, written in the same era and by
the same composer, in the very different versions by Tanturi and Pugliese.
> there is also no modern distinction between "fantasia music" and
> "milonga music".
I guess that's because the traditional distinction is more than adequate. ;)
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Why dancers should judge musicians in Tango
nototherwise
*From:* "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
*To:* <tango-l@mit.edu>
*Date:* Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:37:08 +0900
> AJ: "researching old music I do daily". "Sure I'd love to hear your idea
of
> the 4 styles."
>
Igor:> Good ! Thank you! Than I hope you can check those 4 very distinctive
musical
> styles of old music:
> I could call them Salon of 1920s, Canyengue, Orillero, and
> Milonguero-Apilado. Plenty of records available. As soon as music starts a
> dancer should unmistakenly point you to the difference. Of course, there
are
> pieces which remind 2 styles.
>
AJ:
"while you can have musical elements no one will sit down and
listen to dance"
Igor: Really?
Well, at least my partner will. Do I need other spectactors?
Gentlemen, methjinks, this discussion is getting more and more abstruse. So,
if I understood this correctly, we have here a dancer who says he makes
music with his body, and claims to sometimes make better music than the
musician, in fact, does not even need a musician to do so, and advocates
that dancers should decide what is good music and what isn't.
Then we have the musician who says, only a musician can really feel the
music, and those dancers who are able to feel it, are usually musicians as
well.
And then we have Igor again, who now says that he can dance tango by himself
while his partner can sit down and listen to him dance.
Hm. Astrid, scratching her head, will not argue with AJs point that
musicians usually are able to hear music. Nor, that a dancing musician is
able to hear the music, and maybe better than a dancing non-musician. Now,
whether what the musician hears he is able to translate into appropriate
physicial movements, is another story, however. And, as a matter of fact,
whenever I have danced with some Argentine I often saw at milongas
(standing, chatting, drinking wine), and he danced kind of lankily and
trying to dance rather than actually dancing, quite a number of times, the
man apologised to me, whispering:"Actually, I am the guitarrist (violinist,
singer, cellist, whatever) here, I don't really dance tango..."
Does this mean, that dancers know more about music than musicians know about
music? Or dance? (to add confusion to the already puzzling logic in this
thread)
No, it doesn't. Dancers do not judge what is bad music. They only judge who
is a bad DJ.
And now, Igor, as to those "four styles of old music":
these are four styles of dance, not four styles of music. There is no
"apilado music". You can dance salon as well as milonguero/apilado to the
same music. Canyengue may be a dance as well as music, I am not sure [what
about the orchestra Sexteto Canyengue in Holland?] but who knows what
exactly was Canyengue anyway? Orillero is a dance (I doubt that they were
playing very different music in the suburbs than in the city centre). The
way to distinguish music is by the era it was written in and by the
composer. There is a further general disctinction between tango,vals and
milonga (which are dances as well as music, in case you still happen to be
awake after reading all this and will allow me to bore you a little
further), but no, there is also no modern distinction between "fantasia
music" and "milonga music".
Cheers
sigh
Astrid
