4092 why rules exist
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 06:20:48 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: why rules exist
So I was at a milonga last night and, having had a
little too much wine with dinner, opted mainly to just
watch the dance floor. Several times during the
night, I watched one particular man as he danced with
three different partners. Every time I looked, I
could see the tension in every one of his partners,
including a woman who was a superior dancer (but who
just lacks confidence). I heard one young woman
apologize several times during the same song. As you
might guess, he was one of those who did the "talking
tango".
I thought it was a shame that these women, who had
great potential, would probably be limited for much of
their dancing life. Simply because they had developed
the "master-slave" mentality well before they had
become intermediate dancers. They will probably not
be able to fully appreciate the really good men
because they are not being encouraged to develop
sensitivity. This lack of sensitivity may compromise
the development of their male partners, and possibly
the entire community. So, in essence, it is the women
who determine the level of dancing in the community.
By the way, it was Robert Hauk who explained these
dynamics to us several years ago before we had heard
of the "no talking" rule. He was right. I also know
that from personal experience.
I am very vocal about the "no teaching" rule at our
milongas because I do not want my beginning students
to see it on the dance floor, the same way I saw it
last night. And beginners are so impressionable.
For me, this is why the rule of no teaching exists.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 14:49:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Trini wrote:
> I am very vocal about the "no teaching" rule at our milongas
How do you declare it? Announce it every hour or so, to ensure even latecoming
visitors know?
How do you police it? Listen in on talking, to find out whether it is teaching?
And how do you enforce it? Refuse entry in future to those found guilty?
Chris
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 15:56:50 +0100
From: Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Dear Chris,
Maybe there is no need to consider this "no teaching rule" a law...enough if
you can make it a custom. Same thing as being hostile on tango-l. In a
community with no high authority there is no possibility for anyone to
create laws, or to enforce them. But it is possible to create a custom out
of such a concept.
It only requires teachers to reach an agreement between themselves. After
that, you only need to tell your students now and then that it is an
unwritten rule to avoid teaching at a milonga, because it makes people look
and feel bad. With time, such a concept becomes a custom. Especially, if it
is really a helpful concept.
Cheers,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
AIM: ecsedya
ICQ: 46386265
Skype: ecsedyaron
Yahoo Messenger: ecsedya
MSN Messenger: aron_ecsedy@msn.com
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
https://www.milonga.hu/
Az iWiW-en megtalálhatsz - Find me at iWiW (https://www.iwiw.net/)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Chris, UK
> Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2006 3:49 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] why rules exist
>
> Trini wrote:
> > I am very vocal about the "no teaching" rule at our milongas
>
> How do you declare it? Announce it every hour or so, to
> ensure even latecoming visitors know?
>
> How do you police it? Listen in on talking, to find out
> whether it is teaching?
>
> And how do you enforce it? Refuse entry in future to those
> found guilty?
>
> Chris
>
> ---------
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> ---------
>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 07:54:44 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Actually, Chris, it is reminded gently to the entire
community every once in a while via email. (There is
one list for the entire community, much like Tango-A).
I will occasionally have a sign posted at the entry
that reads "Dancers Only, No Teachers or Students
Allowed". We also lead by example.
I have given general warnings that we may ask people
to leave if rules are violated. I have once had to
reprimand someone at a milonga for trying to get one
of my visiting instructors to teach him at a milonga.
Students are taught that this is bad behavior. When
my female students ask me about whether so-and-so's
behavior to them has bad, I answer "yes" (and I give a
silent "good for her!"). I properly train my male
students. The two biggest violators of this rule do
not come to my milongas.
And, yes, I do watch at my milongas for whether my
community is developing the proper etiquitte. That is
my job.
These methods work quite well for us. Thank you for
asking.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> wrote:
> Trini wrote:
> > I am very vocal about the "no teaching" rule at
> our milongas
>
> How do you declare it? Announce it every hour or so,
> to ensure even latecoming
> visitors know?
>
> How do you police it? Listen in on talking, to find
> out whether it is teaching?
>
> And how do you enforce it? Refuse entry in future to
> those found guilty?
>
> Chris
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:32:34 -0500
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Trini, I salute you! Bravo!
seth
On 3/9/06, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, Chris, it is reminded gently to the entire
> community every once in a while via email. (There is
> one list for the entire community, much like Tango-A).
> I will occasionally have a sign posted at the entry
> that reads "Dancers Only, No Teachers or Students
> Allowed". We also lead by example.
>
> I have given general warnings that we may ask people
> to leave if rules are violated. I have once had to
> reprimand someone at a milonga for trying to get one
> of my visiting instructors to teach him at a milonga.
>
> Students are taught that this is bad behavior. When
> my female students ask me about whether so-and-so's
> behavior to them has bad, I answer "yes" (and I give a
> silent "good for her!"). I properly train my male
> students. The two biggest violators of this rule do
> not come to my milongas.
>
> And, yes, I do watch at my milongas for whether my
> community is developing the proper etiquitte. That is
> my job.
>
> These methods work quite well for us. Thank you for
> asking.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
> --- "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> wrote:
>
> > Trini wrote:
> > > I am very vocal about the "no teaching" rule at
> > our milongas
> >
> > How do you declare it? Announce it every hour or so,
> > to ensure even latecoming
> > visitors know?
> >
> > How do you police it? Listen in on talking, to find
> > out whether it is teaching?
> >
> > And how do you enforce it? Refuse entry in future to
> > those found guilty?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > should be sent to
> > send the
> > LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> >
> >
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
> dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
.
>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:50:28 -0500
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
in our Woodstock classes and workshops, along with a page on 'Tango
Terms', I hand out a "Rules of the Road' one sheet on milonga etiquette
ermphasizing no teaching at milongas... along with info about getting
onto the floor smoothly, line of dance, cortinas, etc...
At least no one can complain that they didn't know...
I.
seth wrote:
>Trini, I salute you! Bravo!
>
>seth
>
>On 3/9/06, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Actually, Chris, it is reminded gently to the entire
>>community every once in a while via email. (There is
>>one list for the entire community, much like Tango-A).
>>I will occasionally have a sign posted at the entry
>>that reads "Dancers Only, No Teachers or Students
>>Allowed". We also lead by example.
>>
>>I have given general warnings that we may ask people
>>to leave if rules are violated. I have once had to
>>reprimand someone at a milonga for trying to get one
>>of my visiting instructors to teach him at a milonga.
>>
>>Students are taught that this is bad behavior. When
>>my female students ask me about whether so-and-so's
>>behavior to them has bad, I answer "yes" (and I give a
>>silent "good for her!"). I properly train my male
>>students. The two biggest violators of this rule do
>>not come to my milongas.
>>
>>And, yes, I do watch at my milongas for whether my
>>community is developing the proper etiquitte. That is
>>my job.
>>
>>These methods work quite well for us. Thank you for
>>asking.
>>
>>Trini de Pittsburgh
>>
>>
>>--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Trini wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I am very vocal about the "no teaching" rule at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>our milongas
>>>
>>>How do you declare it? Announce it every hour or so,
>>>to ensure even latecoming
>>>visitors know?
>>>
>>>How do you police it? Listen in on talking, to find
>>>out whether it is teaching?
>>>
>>>And how do you enforce it? Refuse entry in future to
>>>those found guilty?
>>>
>>>Chris
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>>should be sent to
>>>send the
>>>LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
>>Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
>>dance.
>>https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:54:34 -0500
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Ilene,
I have to be fair: I salute you too!!
seth :-)
On 3/9/06, Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> in our Woodstock classes and workshops, along with a page on 'Tango
> Terms', I hand out a "Rules of the Road' one sheet on milonga etiquette
> ermphasizing no teaching at milongas... along with info about getting onto
> the floor smoothly, line of dance, cortinas, etc...
> At least no one can complain that they didn't know...
> I.
>
>
>
> seth wrote:
>
> Trini, I salute you! Bravo!
>
> seth
>
> On 3/9/06, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, Chris, it is reminded gently to the entire
> community every once in a while via email. (There is
> one list for the entire community, much like Tango-A).
> I will occasionally have a sign posted at the entry
> that reads "Dancers Only, No Teachers or Students
> Allowed". We also lead by example.
>
> I have given general warnings that we may ask people
> to leave if rules are violated. I have once had to
> reprimand someone at a milonga for trying to get one
> of my visiting instructors to teach him at a milonga.
>
> Students are taught that this is bad behavior. When
> my female students ask me about whether so-and-so's
> behavior to them has bad, I answer "yes" (and I give a
> silent "good for her!"). I properly train my male
> students. The two biggest violators of this rule do
> not come to my milongas.
>
> And, yes, I do watch at my milongas for whether my
> community is developing the proper etiquitte. That is
> my job.
>
> These methods work quite well for us. Thank you for
> asking.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
> --- "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> wrote:
>
> Trini wrote:
>
> I am very vocal about the "no teaching" rule at
>
> our milongas
>
> How do you declare it? Announce it every hour or so,
> to ensure even latecoming
> visitors know?
>
> How do you police it? Listen in on talking, to find
> out whether it is teaching?
>
> And how do you enforce it? Refuse entry in future to
> those found guilty?
>
> Chris
>
>
-----
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
-----
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
> dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm <https://www.pitt.edu/%7Emcph/PATangoWeb.htm>
>
>
>
.
>
---
.
>
>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:53:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Trini wrote:
> I will occasionally have a sign posted at the entry that reads "Dancers Only,
> No Teachers or Students Allowed". We also lead by example.
You're the first teacher I've heard of that goes as far as barring herself from her own
milonga in order to show an example to pupils.
That's... awesome.
I too salute you! ;)
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [TANGO-L] why rules exist
*From:* seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
*To:* TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
*Date:* Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:32:34 -0500
Trini, I salute you! Bravo!
seth
On 3/9/06, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, Chris, it is reminded gently to the entire
> community every once in a while via email. (There is
> one list for the entire community, much like Tango-A).
> I will occasionally have a sign posted at the entry
> that reads "Dancers Only, No Teachers or Students
> Allowed". We also lead by example.
>
> I have given general warnings that we may ask people
> to leave if rules are violated. I have once had to
> reprimand someone at a milonga for trying to get one
> of my visiting instructors to teach him at a milonga.
>
> Students are taught that this is bad behavior. When
> my female students ask me about whether so-and-so's
> behavior to them has bad, I answer "yes" (and I give a
> silent "good for her!"). I properly train my male
> students. The two biggest violators of this rule do
> not come to my milongas.
>
> And, yes, I do watch at my milongas for whether my
> community is developing the proper etiquitte. That is
> my job.
>
> These methods work quite well for us. Thank you for
> asking.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
> --- "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM> wrote:
>
> > Trini wrote:
> > > I am very vocal about the "no teaching" rule at
> > our milongas
> >
> > How do you declare it? Announce it every hour or so,
> > to ensure even latecoming
> > visitors know?
> >
> > How do you police it? Listen in on talking, to find
> > out whether it is teaching?
> >
> > And how do you enforce it? Refuse entry in future to
> > those found guilty?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > should be sent to
> > send the
> > LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> >
> >
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
> dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 10:19:38 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Hi Aron,
In an earlier post, I said that the teacher's
authority is given by the community. My goals are
readily transparant to most in my community - to build
a tango community we can all enjoy and be proud of.
Enough people in my community share the same goals.
If I overstep a line, people tell me. I do not have a
problem with admitting if I made a mistake and
apologizing, even publicly. And I learn from it.
Most people will understand if they have behaved
poorly to others and will try to correct their
behavior. Those that don't probably have self-esteem
issues that cannot be influenced by others. The
person I reprimanded later apologized to the visiting
instructor and is still welcome at our milongas.
People make mistakes (we all do). It's a question of
how they handle their mistakes.
People have free will, and we encourage people to
think for themselves. They just happen to want the
same community we want.
Any organizational behaviorists out there who can
explain the dynamics of group behavior?
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Aron ECSEDY <aron@milonga.hu> wrote:
> Dear Trini,
> Hmmm. I don't mean to challenge you, but Sean said
> that no teacher has so
> much influence in the US to make people feel bad at
> a milonga. I understand
> you do not abuse the power you have, but you do have
> enough power to cause
> quite a bit of frustration to a misbehaving student.
> (misbehaving according
> to your set of rules)
>
> Here in Hungary, you are not given direct power over
> guests even if you are
> the organizer (actually, it is also illegal to do
> so). In plain English: you
> simply have no right to reprimand anyone. Once when
> it happened (over
> milonga fees - not even something so intangible as
> behaviour standards!),
> the community considered it an absolute outrage.
> Which is strange when we
> consider, that milonga-fees are around 2 USD... (a
> cinema ticket is around
> 6)
>
> > And, yes, I do watch at my milongas for whether my
> community
> > is developing the proper etiquitte. That is my
> job.
>
> Here teachers are not really milonga organizers. All
> the organizers teach a
> few lessons per week, but they are not full time
> tango teachers. Most of the
> new students come from other teachers. As such this
> may be a problem around
> here. But even if I organize my own milonga: it
> would be plain public
> relations suicide to directly reprimand someone for
> teaching at a milonga,
> not to mention disallow him entry.
>
> I do not know the situation elsewhere, but I cannot
> imagine that many
> organizers have such power at their milongas.
>
> Cheers,
> Aron
>
>
>
>
> Ecsedy Aron
> ***********
> Aron ECSEDY
>
> Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
>
> AIM: ecsedya
> ICQ: 46386265
> Skype: ecsedyaron
> Yahoo Messenger: ecsedya
> MSN Messenger: aron_ecsedy@msn.com
>
>
> https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
> * * * * *
> https://www.milonga.hu/
>
> Az iWiW-en megtalalhatsz - Find me at iWiW
> (https://www.iwiw.net/)
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 11:24:13 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
IMHO there is only one reason why teaching on the floor is bad.
It is when some sort of an old fart barely moving his limbs starts to teach
a young strong beginner, therefore making her feel bad about the place and
never come back to the greatest regret of a host-teacher that he looses a
promising student.
Other than that... I hope we still live in a free world.
By the way, good dancers never teach on the floor because they are able to
make a dance with everyone. And opposite.
Igor Polk
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 22:44:10 +0100
From: Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Trini,
Thank you for your answer. However, I must emphasize, that you answered to
my _private_ letter publicly.
I don't mind of course, but my letter was not entirely of public importance.
> In an earlier post, I said that the teacher's authority is
> given by the community. My goals are readily transparant to
> most in my community - to build a tango community we can all
> enjoy and be proud of.
> Enough people in my community share the same goals.
I do not know the situation. In case your students (contraselection by your
personality traits) have a majority in your community that's no suprise
then. Of course, even that doesn't mean that your goals are not worthy. Just
take care when judging this if you are also an influential teacher over
there.
> Most people will understand if they have behaved poorly to
> others and will try to correct their behavior. Those that
> don't probably have self-esteem issues that cannot be
> influenced by others. The person I reprimanded later
> apologized to the visiting instructor and is still welcome at
> our milongas.
> People make mistakes (we all do). It's a question of how
> they handle their mistakes.
It is probably just the difference between our (US/Hungary) views on
authority. A serious reprimand is simply not acceptable around here. Or at
least it will not make you popular.
Cheers,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
AIM: ecsedya
ICQ: 46386265
Skype: ecsedyaron
Yahoo Messenger: ecsedya
MSN Messenger: aron_ecsedy@msn.com
https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
https://www.milonga.hu/
Az iWiW-en megtalálhatsz - Find me at iWiW (https://www.iwiw.net/)
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 17:03:22 -0500
From: Richard deSousa <mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
My pet peeve, rules of navigation, seems missing in most milongas... with many leaders dancing willy nilly all over the dance floor... :-(
El Bandito de Tango.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 10:19:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] why rules exist
Hi Aron,
In an earlier post, I said that the teacher's
authority is given by the community. My goals are
readily transparant to most in my community - to build
a tango community we can all enjoy and be proud of.
Enough people in my community share the same goals.
If I overstep a line, people tell me. I do not have a
problem with admitting if I made a mistake and
apologizing, even publicly. And I learn from it.
Most people will understand if they have behaved
poorly to others and will try to correct their
behavior. Those that don't probably have self-esteem
issues that cannot be influenced by others. The
person I reprimanded later apologized to the visiting
instructor and is still welcome at our milongas.
People make mistakes (we all do). It's a question of
how they handle their mistakes.
People have free will, and we encourage people to
think for themselves. They just happen to want the
same community we want.
Any organizational behaviorists out there who can
explain the dynamics of group behavior?
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Aron ECSEDY <aron@milonga.hu> wrote:
> Dear Trini,
> Hmmm. I don't mean to challenge you, but Sean said
> that no teacher has so
> much influence in the US to make people feel bad at
> a milonga. I understand
> you do not abuse the power you have, but you do have
> enough power to cause
> quite a bit of frustration to a misbehaving student.
> (misbehaving according
> to your set of rules)
>
> Here in Hungary, you are not given direct power over
> guests even if you are
> the organizer (actually, it is also illegal to do
> so). In plain English: you
> simply have no right to reprimand anyone. Once when
> it happened (over
> milonga fees - not even something so intangible as
> behaviour standards!),
> the community considered it an absolute outrage.
> Which is strange when we
> consider, that milonga-fees are around 2 USD... (a
> cinema ticket is around
> 6)
>
> > And, yes, I do watch at my milongas for whether my
> community
> > is developing the proper etiquitte. That is my
> job.
>
> Here teachers are not really milonga organizers. All
> the organizers teach a
> few lessons per week, but they are not full time
> tango teachers. Most of the
> new students come from other teachers. As such this
> may be a problem around
> here. But even if I organize my own milonga: it
> would be plain public
> relations suicide to directly reprimand someone for
> teaching at a milonga,
> not to mention disallow him entry.
>
> I do not know the situation elsewhere, but I cannot
> imagine that many
> organizers have such power at their milongas.
>
> Cheers,
> Aron
>
>
>
>
> Ecsedy Aron
> ***********
> Aron ECSEDY
>
> Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
>
> AIM: ecsedya
> ICQ: 46386265
> Skype: ecsedyaron
> Yahoo Messenger: ecsedya
> MSN Messenger: aron_ecsedy@msn.com
>
>
> https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
> * * * * *
> https://www.milonga.hu/
>
> Az iWiW-en megtalalhatsz - Find me at iWiW
> (https://www.iwiw.net/)
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 14:39:41 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Dear Aron and listeros,
Please accept my apologies for answering a private
post publicly. My mistake for not checking it more
closely.
Aron, I find your posts to be well-thought out and
informative. I always enjoy discussing things with
you, even if we may disagree on points.
Enjoyable tangos to all,
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU> wrote:
> Trini,
>
> Thank you for your answer. However, I must
> emphasize, that you answered to
> my _private_ letter publicly.
> I don't mind of course, but my letter was not
> entirely of public importance.
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 22:53:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Aron wrote:
> It is probably just the difference between our (US/Hungary) views on
> authority. A serious reprimand is simply not acceptable around here.
Likewise throughout Europe. I've never heard of a hereabouts tango community
remotely like this one in Pittsburgh, US.
Here, if you tried to tell dancers that what they were allowed to do on a particular
dance floor was governed by the local teacher's "authority", they'd think you were mad.
Or on a hustle. People are generally not stupid. They recognise "no outside drinks"
when they hear it.
Chris
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 18:10:52 -0600
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
I wouldn't mind having a "no talking-tango" rule around here. But the
majority of the tango dancers around here have less than 25 lessons
under their belt. Heck, there's plenty that have only been to practicas.
Chris, UK wrote:
>Aron wrote:
>
>
>>It is probably just the difference between our (US/Hungary) views on
>>authority. A serious reprimand is simply not acceptable around here.
>>
>>
>Likewise throughout Europe. I've never heard of a hereabouts tango community
>remotely like this one in Pittsburgh, US.
>
>Here, if you tried to tell dancers that what they were allowed to do on a particular
>dance floor was governed by the local teacher's "authority", they'd think you were mad.
>
>
I think you read more into that comment than was intended.
I think Trini only meant that people tended to listen to her
about such matters because they wanted to.
>Or on a hustle. People are generally not stupid. They recognise "no outside drinks"
>when they hear it.
>
>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 10:43:31 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Sean here, with a question for Aron and Chris:
Imagine that you are attending the opera, and the
person in front of you begins to explain the story to
his companion. I imagine that you will not be pleased.
Here in the US, the ushers or a manager will intervene
and tell the person to stop. If he does not stop, he
will be ejected from the venue. Do you suggest that
such a thing could not happen in Hungary or the rest
of Europe?
Or are milongas there so different from operas, in
that any one person is free to interfere with the
enjoyment of the others?
The mentality of a cretin who teaches at a milonga is
the same as the mentality of the cretin who interrupts
the opera, the symphony or the cinema. Only the most
boorish individual will engage in such crass behavior.
Those who tolerate it are no better.
Sean
P.S. My apologies to those who talk at the opera, and
find this post offensive. ;>
Aron wrote:
It is probably just the difference between our
(US/Hungary) views on authority. A serious reprimand
is simply not acceptable around here.
Chris UK wrote:
Here, if you tried to tell dancers that what they were
allowed to do on a particular dance floor was governed
by the local teacher's "authority", they'd think you
were mad.
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 07:35:52 -1200
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
> Sean here, with a question for Aron and Chris:
>
> Imagine that you are attending the opera, and the person
in front of you begins to explain the story to his
companion. I imagine that you will not be pleased.
> >
> Sean
>
> P.S. My apologies to those who talk at the opera, and find
this post offensive. ;>
Sean:
It depends on the opera. Some of them remind me of Abbott
and Costello's baseball routine: "Who's on first, What's on
second, I don't know is on third base."
Mozart is pretty straight forward but Wagner can be a
stretch.
Michael
Washington, DC
With apologies to long deceased Milton Cross
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 15:29:44 -0500
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
I surmise that a Tango amateur may love Mozart and Italian Opera. But love
Wagner? I am curious...
seth
On 3/10/06, Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
>
>
> It depends on the opera. Some of them remind me of Abbott
> and Costello's baseball routine: "Who's on first, What's on
> second, I don't know is on third base."
>
> Mozart is pretty straight forward but Wagner can be a
> stretch.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
> With apologies to long deceased Milton Cross
>
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 20:48:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
> I surmise that a Tango amateur may love Mozart and Italian Opera.
> But love Wagner? I am curious...
You've not heard Wagner's "Nochero Soy"? ;)
Chris
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 17:02:14 EST
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
I'm pretty sure Wolfgang would have loved the tango... squeezing the ladies
in an embrace would be something he'd love to do... ;-)
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 3/10/2006 12:31:09 Pacific Standard Time, s1redh@GMAIL.COM
writes:
I surmise that a Tango amateur may love Mozart and Italian Opera. But love
Wagner? I am curious...
seth
On 3/10/06, Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
>
>
> It depends on the opera. Some of them remind me of Abbott
> and Costello's baseball routine: "Who's on first, What's on
> second, I don't know is on third base."
>
> Mozart is pretty straight forward but Wagner can be a
> stretch.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
> With apologies to long deceased Milton Cross
>
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:01:53 +0100
From: Aron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Dear Sean,
> Here in the US, the ushers or a manager will intervene and
> tell the person to stop. If he does not stop, he will be
> ejected from the venue. Do you suggest that such a thing
> could not happen in Hungary or the rest of Europe?
Well, the comparison limps a bit. We were not talking about someone
essentially stopping and giving a class on the dancefloor holding up all the
other dancers. In the opera-example you refer to that. If the talking is
only heard by the companion, then the whole story is between the two
friends. There would be no interruption for the others.
Nevertheless, in Hungary it is not likely that the usher or manager would
intervene unless the disturbance is very prominent (such as someone talking
quite audibly or loudly) and even then, it would take the form of a polite
request. It is much more likely that the actors or singers on stage would
stop their show and wait until the person realizes that he is disrupting the
performance. This happened quite a few times here (mainly mobile
phone-related issues - some people answer phones even during the opera,
theatre or in cinema. Actually in cinemas it is not considered a federal
offence to answer a mobile - keeping the conversation not too audible. The
latter is not a big deal considering today's surround sound movies and the
several kilowatt sound systems).
> Or are milongas there so different from operas, in that any
> one person is free to interfere with the enjoyment of the others?
One other person to be exact, who has all the rights and tools to object.
> The mentality of a cretin who teaches at a milonga is the
> same as the mentality of the cretin who interrupts the opera,
> the symphony or the cinema. Only the most boorish individual
> will engage in such crass behavior.
I do not believe it has anything to do with reduced mental capacity or
agricultural inclination, Sean.
You may call this person disrespectful, rude or selfish, but your words
appear to be intended to manipulate those who don't share your views hundred
percently: if I don't accept your views totally, then I am redneck barbarian
idiot... Sounds bad.
I suggest dropping this thread as it is leading to something that is not
constructive.
Cheers,
Aron
Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY
Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
AIM: ecsedya
ICQ: 46386265
Skype: ecsedyaron
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https://www.holgyvalasz.hu/
* * * * *
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Az iWiW-en megtalálhatsz - Find me at iWiW (https://www.iwiw.net/)
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 02:09:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
Sean wrote:
> Imagine that you are attending the opera, and the person in
> front of you begins to explain the story to his companion. I
> imagine that you will not be pleased. Here in the US, the ushers
> or a manager will intervene and tell the person to stop. If he does
> not stop, he will be ejected from the venue.
> are milongas there so different from operas, in that any one
> person is free to interfere with the enjoyment of the others?
I would say the major difference is our operas don't have teachers who'd have us
believe "explaining the story" equals "interfering with the enjoyment of others"...
....except nor do our milongas.
Trini said "I am very vocal about the 'no teaching' rule at our milongas because I do
not want my beginning students to see it on the dance floor." Nothing at all about
interference with other couples. Face it: her/your gripe is about unauthorised teaching.
And the only enjoyment this necessarily interferes with is that of the authorised
teachers. Every dancer should be free to "explain the story" of tango to any who wants
to learn. Far from being at odds with consideration to others, it is an essential part of it.
> The mentality of a cretin who teaches at a milonga is ...
> P.S. My apologies to those who talk at the opera, and find this post offensive. ;>
And my apologies on your behalf to cretins who find the above association with (some)
tango teachers offensive. :|
Have joyous dances, everyone.
Chris
PS Inconsideration for others' enjoyment is rarer here. My only such experience at the
opera was Madame Butterfly interrupted by some Americans loudly sharing complaints
about the size of their hotel rooms. I heard no evidence of interest in the story.
PPS We didn't reprimand them under the "rules". We didn't call the ushers or
manager. We didn't get them ejected. We just politely told them to shut up. They did.
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 22:06:56 EST
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: why rules exist
I believe in two rules that have worked over the years:
Rule 1: Have Fun!!!
Rule 2: If you are not having Fun, refer to rule number one.
A corollary is: Learn to have a good time in spite of your surroundings.
The last was essential while in theater during the Southeast Asian War.
Just some thoughts,
Bill
