1154 Why students stop dancing.
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 21:20:43 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Why students stop dancing.
cont.
My previous comments diverged a little from the thread but the tie in is that
because of the quality of teaching, students are not made aware at the
beginning of the actual work and practice needed to become good. They don't
have the perception to see that what appears to be fancy footwork is not only
badly executed but taught too soon. They become discouraged when they can't
really master those fancy steps (even taught badly) so they don't feel
comfortable and proficient and that is a factor in their discouragement.
Their teachers are teaching them too much too soon so they won't get too
bored (read - lose their business). Teachers should make them feel good about
the basics, not hurry through them but if the teachers doesn't really know
either, you have the blind leading the blind.
cheers,
Charles
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 08:16:54 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
Here is how it happened to me.
I fell in love with the dance, so I made it part of my life. This is typical:
people who love the dance (and music, etc.) persevere long enough to be good
enough to enjoy making it part of their lives. One who does not love the
dance has no reason to do so.
I was in love with the music, and intensely curious about the proper ways to
dance tango for decades before. This made it easy to fall in love. I was
already sold. Often the perceived "glamour" of the tango makes people really
want to learn it. They may eventually take a look. Most, their curiosity
satisfied, go away. Fancy performances in parties and nice "non-threatening"
demonstrations in class may catch a few more, but do not hold your breath.
I soon found my first (and then second, etc.) "tango home". A place where
"everybody knew my name". Also a place with LOTS of newly inducted tango
nuts. This helped enormously. I think it is a good idea to put an effort into
building fun and supportive communities of neophytes into the teaching
structure. How? A long and complicated story.
Months about 3 to about 7 were tough, and only my great love kept me from
quitting. I was having just too much trouble making my dance interesting
enough to be confident out there. Fortunately I danced with good enough form
and musicality to have no troubles at all "at home", or when surrounded by
"my people". But it was rough out there.
This kind of thing is very common, particularly in men. The main source of
difficulty varies a lot, but it is the rare student leader who does not go
through this, perhaps not for just 5 months, but one year and more. I am sure
it makes a significant percentage of the students quit that might otherwise
commit. Help? Well, if everyone suffered from the same malady as I did, a
teaching approach centered (at each level) on a careful fixed choice of dance
elements that keep recurring, would be a possible solution. Then everything
else (floor craft, posture, movement technique, composition, connection,
etc.) could be taught using the material in question as the context. But
everyone does not face the same difficulties. More importantly, not everyone
would have the same preferences, even if they had the same needs.
I dealt with my perceived needs by trying different teachers, while giving
each one enough time to have an effect. I learnt something of value from
practically every one of them, but liked a few much better than most.
Something like this is what people will do in all but the smallest
communities---at least until we reach the next stage! People will try, and
sometimes they will choose. Teacher turn-offs or "bad experiences" in class
are not going very often to stop a determined student, if there is more than
one teacher in town. It is certainly to be hoped that teachers do not all
find out the same ONE best way of "doing it", else all the fun of sampling
the market will be gone. Not only that, the union approved way, like
everything produced by a committee of the median, is certain to be a lousy
one. (This sort of thing actually happens, though perhaps not in tango, thus
far.)
I believe my choice criteria were sound, and so will everybody else think of
their own. Our own judgment is almost always perfect. But this is a little
different from other markets. Being liked is not the same as being good,
knowledgeable, effective, what have you. Not in dance teaching, any more than
in any other kind of teaching. Most teachers need to be liked a lot more than
they need to be good. In fact, a lot of them cannot afford not to be loved. I
would say that more often than not 50% of the reasons to like a teacher have
nothing to do with the dance, and 75% have nothing to do with the excellence
of the content, or the effectiveness of the methods.
The ideal teacher in my dreams is one who is liked a lot, and is able to use
that to sneak in good form, good posture, good musical interpretation, good
floor craft, an interesting vocabulary, etc., etc., and get students to
quickly become as good as they can be. A teacher who thinks: "this is THE
important thing"; or "I will not do this or that" may be liked, but is
unlikely to be effective. Perhaps it does not matter a whole lot, anyway.
Cheers,
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:05:17 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <dmholm@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Why students stop dancing.
Manuel mentioned:
>>Basically I think that folks who become interested in the music and dance
will stay almost no matter what. Those who lose interest quickly are very
difficult to retain. The serious part is to try to make sure that people are
not "turned off" by negative experiences in the classes. It's particularly
important that the teacher(s) make every effort to insure that the students
do not get their negative experience from the teacher or from the way the
class is conducted, where it's held, etc. Outside of that, there is not much
more that one can do. Either somebody likes the tango and the tango scene
well enough to keep coming back, or they do not. IMHO that's about it.....
Folks = women or men? Are there men in tango classes now?
Deborah
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 14:33:38 -0400
From: manuel <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
>Folks = women or men? Are there men in tango classes now?
>Deborah
The topic is why students stop dancing... Our students come in 2 basic
genders, men and women. The gender ration varies from class to class but it
tends to be fairly even. Sometimes we have a few more women and sometimes a
few more men. I'm sure that if the first time there are 16 women and 13 men,
some women might not return as they think they'll not be enough men.
Ironically, we then go into a men recruitment mode and sure enough, the next
time there will be 3 more men than women....
I think this gender balance can be a major factor in whether a first time
student stays or not. Of course, if the gender imbalance is very great and
happens all the time, that's going to affect attendance too... The topic
however might be more of a question about folks (people of both genders) who
start taking tango, do it for a while (6 or 8 times?) and then stop. I think
that these men and women either had a bad experience with their particular
tango scene or they simply are not that interested.....
Manuel
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2003 19:02:36 -0700
From: Rick FromPdx <bugs1959bunny@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
Which still leaves the issue of the wisdom of having beginners be stuck dancing/learning with each other. Guess the human cloning business isn't going to be possible for a while. Be nice to have an on/off switch & stash some really good dancers (leaders & followers) in the closet. I'm sure everyone would be up this dance a lot more effeciently with a skilled, considerate counterpart. I've seen young women pick up the dance in short order, perhaps a few weeks or months, thanks to lots of experienced help.
r PS: more pdx news: a local skating rink is closing where Tony Harding used to do her olympic trials stuff. She used to line & partner dance with us at a local CW hall, till she got thrown out for causing trouble. Now I find that hard to believe ;-) she was an ok dancer, apparently triple axels don't xlate into partner dancing...
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 23:10:26 -0600
From: Russell E Bauer <russell_bauer@LYCOS.COM>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
Hello all,
When there is a group of people that start about the same time, many of the women in this group will get asked to dance by more experience men - especially the better women dancers or the prettiest of the group. And the dance can generally go well. But, not many of the more experienced women in the community are excited to dance with the beginner men. I don't blame them.
It generally works just fine to have an experienced leader dance with an inexperienced follower. But an inexperience leader paired with an experienced follower presents more problems.
My point is this discourages some beginner men and perhaps this is one reason why some men quit tango. It'll be a problem no matter what, but I think in our community in the Denver area, there are some experienced men that dance with some of the better or prettier beginner woman but not for just one tanda, but tanda after tanda after tanda. This might be good for the beginner woman, but the guys who are in her classes may be just sitting and may eventually quit.
Russell Bauer
Denver, CO
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Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:14:30 -0700
From: Andrew Allison <andrew@AALLISON.COM>
Subject: Why students stop dancing.
Here's another hypothesis: women stop because they don't get to dance
enough with good leaders, and men (at least those who realize how they
dance and have respect for their partners) stop because they don't learn
enough to dance with good followers. Since, as Russell points out, good
leaders can and do dance with beginning followers, the solution is to focus
on creating good leaders.
Andrew
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:54:56 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
Bottom line is:
People stop dancing because they are not having fun.
There are many reasons why, as people have pointed
out. Some of those reasons have to do with individual
personalities and some have to do with the way new
people are received by the community.
If people are less focused on the demands of feeling
like they have to be a good follow or a good lead and
can just be themselves then they have more fun. The
possibility that aquiring better technique will give
them even more fun will lead them to study harder and
stick with it.
Sometimes beginners feel a lot of pressure.
It's important for all of us to recognize people for
who they are, not just for their good dancing. Social
dancing is social, it's good to socialize and dance
with people of all skill levels and make each dance
special. If you are a good leader/follower then you
have the skills to enable the other person to glimpse
what it is that makes the dance so special to you.
This is what they want to feel, that is what will
inspire them to learn.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 19:46:40 +0200
From: skoc <skoc@NOOS.FR>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
Tango is not an easy dance and it is quite normal that everyone can't handle
the crossing of the desert.
Usually in beginner classes, you have an even number of men and women, very
often, there are more men. Usually, none of the participants have the
slightest idea of what they have come into.
Add to this, the fact that the most usually ungifted part for dancing is
also in charge of the hardest task (men) :-D
You get the picture...
Stiph
Here's another hypothesis: women stop because they don't get to dance
enough with good leaders, and men (at least those who realize how they
dance and have respect for their partners) stop because they don't learn
enough to dance with good followers. Since, as Russell points out, good
leaders can and do dance with beginning followers, the solution is to focus
on creating good leaders.
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 12:22:15 -0700
From: robin thomas <niborsamoht@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Why students stop dancing.
Stiph wrote-
"Usually in beginner classes, you have an even number
of men and women, very often, there are more men.
Usually, none of the participants have the slightest
idea of what they have come into. Add to this, the
fact that the most usually ungifted part for dancing
is also in charge of the hardest task (men) "
Food for thought, Daniel Trenner told me he thinks the
leader is just a glorified chauffer and the follower's
part is much harder.
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 18:33:25 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
Robin writes:
> Food for thought, Daniel Trenner told me he thinks the
> leader is just a glorified chauffer and the follower's
> part is much harder.
Which raises an interesting question -- more food
for thought, as it were -- what if someone were to offer
an advanced tango class, and then spend the hour having
everyone literally grope each other in one massive
"contact improvisation" tangled-up ball instead?
Yes, I'm proposing the classic bait and switch,
una sorpresa, if you will, with an interesting and even
somewhat titillating twist!
I wonder, would that foster such an enlightenment?
Verily, would one, perhaps, even long for the 60's?
Huck
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 14:05:28 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
< Huck wrote:
< ... what if someone were to offer
< an advanced tango class, and then spend the hour having
< everyone literally grope each other in one massive
< "contact improvisation" tangled-up ball instead?
I took a workshop with Brigitte Winkler in Seattle where she did a warmup
exercise similar to your suggestion. There were several versions of it. In
the first, we stood in front of our partners and took turns touching our
partner or being touched on the beat. It was just a tap, on any body part,
with any body part, but usually with hands or feet. In the second, everyone
walked around the room, explicitly avoiding line-of-dance, and as we passed
someone, we again touched them on the beat. It was at times a "tangled-up
ball." And as you can readily see, in addition to being a classic "inclusion
activity" to get everyone engaged in the class, it helped everyone to listen
to the beat too.
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 11:26:51 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
I just had a student stop, and here's some of his reasons. He is a good
ballroom dancer.
"...I can't go dancing anytime or all the time. In particular, I have
regularly stayed home on Sunday evening. Yet the tango event that most
appeals to me--the Loring dance--is held Sunday evening.
On other nights of the week tango competes with ballroom and west coast.
At this stage tango comes in third, according to my preferences. Of
course, if my tango skills were good or advanced, I might enjoy the
experience more. But I still think tango would probably stay in third
place. Naturally, if I really liked tango, I could cut out some
weeknight dancing...Currently, I don't want to do that.
Other dances allow a fair amount of open work, with the potential for
more zip, flair, and interaction. Tango, on the other hand, often seems
more confined, unless you really reach advanced levels. Admittedly,
close embrace is very pleasant, if both partners know what they are
doing. Just typing that sentence makes me want to come down there for a
lesson and to go tango dancing! The sensual appearance and potential
feelings of the partners, along with the people in the tango community,
are obviously big drawing cards.
Another smaller matter is that I really don't greatly enjoy one-dance
evenings as much, be they centered around west coast or tango. Variety
is preferable to me.
The last subject that I will mention for now is that of learning tango.
In my life I have learned virtually all things quickly and easily
(valedictorian, Ph.D., etc.). And I have been good at sports. But I need
to learn to adjust to the process of learning tango by including
watching (as if from the outside) rather than just moving "blindly"
[right now I'm not going to take the time to fix the quotation mark] in
a very small space. I'm realizing that my preferred learning style is
centered around the visual rather than the auditory or kinesthetic."
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:45:28 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
Lois Donnay wrote:
>I just had a student stop, and here's some of his reasons.
>He is a good ballroom dancer.
I have come to believe believe that the Argentine tango and ballroom
communities are essentially separate/incompatible communities that attract
different people.
Very few ballroom dancers seem to make the transition to dancing Argentine
tango. More swing or salsa dancers seem to make the transition.
Clay Nelson, who helped launch the Portland (Oregon) tango community, has
similar observations. Although Clay has a ballroom background himself, he
has commented that one cannot expect to attract many ballroom dancers to
Argentine tango.
Tango and ballroom dancing have different esthetics. As Lois' student
remarks:
>Other dances allow a fair amount of open work, with the potential
>for more zip, flair, and interaction.
Tango emphasizes an inner connection between partners. Even the more
theatrically oriented tango dancers must have this inner connection if
their dancing is to have any meaning.
>... I need to learn to adjust to the process of learning tango...
Ballroom dancers already have developed a set of skills that allow them to
dance a number of different dances, but it seems as though they that those
skills are not a great advantage in learning and dancing Argentine tango.
The ballroom experience may also lead people to have unrealistic
expectations about how long it will take to learn Argentine tango. In
addition, Nito Garcia has commented that dancing many dances makes it
difficult to develop a good knowledge of tango.
>Another smaller matter is that I really don't greatly enjoy one-dance
>evenings as much, be they centered around west coast or tango. Variety
>is preferable to me.
In most Argentine tango communities, most of the the dancers only know
tango, vals and milonga. A few know salsa, and a few know a form of
swing--West Coast, East Coast or Lindy. A handful of people know the
ballroom genre of dances. Consequently, at a milonga, a dj might play
some salsa or swing, but probably no ballroom music. There will not be
enough dancers. In addition, for most people who dance Argentine tango
going to a ballroom dance will mean sitting most of the night, and perhaps
dancing to one or two American or European tangos the whole evening.
With best wishes from Texas,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 14:21:22 -0700
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
I believe that Tango requires first and foremost being comfortable in
hugging or embracing another person. Paco Romero in one of his tango
articles quotes Oscar Mandagaran's use of the term "encastre" for "hug" to
point out that the encastre or hug is present not only in tango but also
outside tango. This means that hugging is natural in some cultures and when
people dance tango the embrace becomes an extension of other daily life
moments. To establish a connection in tango one has to be comfortable
embracing another person. This connection is a way to indicate we are alive
and we can be silent if we choose to. In societies where hugging is not
common other ways to communicate or connect with others are more
prevalent -- through objects, pets, hobbies, etc. Many people grasps only
the superficial/visual part of tango because is instantaneous, but the inner
part of tango that is part of the visual is not revealed to the viewer.
Bruno
-
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:08:22 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
With Regard To students bailing due to close-embrace issues. I always mention to my partners that I've just asked to dance, that they get to choose the style of dance we're going to do. Close or open. I mention Astrid's really good advice regarding this. Halting the guy's advance if he's got close-dancing on his mind. With Regard to Ballroom dancer's not really sticking around in the Tango Communities: I've noticed almost no cross-over from other styles of dance. Perhaps a couple more Salsa dancers. Young women always get lots of experienced help, whatever their backgrounds. I've noticed women well-trained in ballet, pick up any style of partner dance, very, very fast. Well-trained & discplined & fluent in rhtyhmic movement. A very good friend of mine is a ballerina & I've taught her Tango in an evening, Scandinavian folk dancing in an evening, etc, etc. She's not crazy about the fidelity issues of some Tango music that get's played, but I'll save that for another thread... Sparky
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:32:19 -0400
From: manuel <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
----- Original Message -----
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 00:27:52 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Why students stop dancing.
Here in Mpls most of our dancers come from other dance communities. We once
did a survey, and I think salsa won. West Coast Swing was a close second.
Lindy/swing is almost nil-can't get 'em to stand up, even though they're
nicely musical. Country two-step dancers are successful, but rarely try
because tango is so "hard" (as well as snooty, as Rick would say.)
I've also noticed that some ballet dancers seem to be quick to pick this up,
but now I've got a student who has been a ballet dancer since the age of 13.
She has a strange posture, and her toes point way out. She wants to know
exactly which muscles to use or relax for each movement. She's impatient as
well. When she saw Assassination Tango she asked us why we don't teach the
true tango like in the movie, and she thinks she was right all along in how
she was supposed to walk, even though we wouldn't let her dance that way.
This is probably the biggest point - if you're really good at one dance, you
may be impatient with yourself or your teachers when you don't pick up the
next dance quickly. It may be a blow to your ego to have to be a "beginner"
again.
Lois from Mpls (Who also dances West Coast, lindy, salsa, and competes in
ballroom)
> With Regard to Ballroom dancer's not really sticking around in
> the Tango Communities: I've noticed almost no cross-over from
> other styles of dance. Perhaps a couple more Salsa dancers. Young
> women always get lots of experienced help, whatever their
> backgrounds. I've noticed women well-trained in ballet, pick up
> any style of partner dance, very, very fast. Well-trained &
> disciplined & fluent in rhythmic movement. A very good friend of
> mine is a ballerina & I've taught her Tango in an evening,
> Scandinavian folk dancing in an evening, etc, etc. She's not
> crazy about the fidelity issues of some Tango music that get's
> played, but I'll save that for another thread... Sparky
>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 2003 06:06:35 +1000
From: Tanguera Alegra <tanguers alegra@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Why students stop dancing...
Here's my 2 cents worth:
1. The music/dance/spirit of tango does not captivate them and keep them hooked. I'm aware that we here might find this unbelievable, but many people have told me that they just don't 'get' it. Personally, I don't 'get' morris dancing, so...
2. Tango is too hard to be good at in a short (3-6 month) period of time. In most other dances, if you did weekly classes for 6 months, you'd be feeling confident and competent as a leader. As we all know, it takes much longer than this for most men to feel competent in tango. Have you ever noticed that tango seems to appeal to high-achievers?
3. People aren't nice to them/There's no 'sense of community'. Luciana Valle exhorted people recently to 'be nice to each other...you may wish for a different community with better dancers, but this is the community you have.' Wise words, indeed.
I'm not sure how all these factors interact, but I do know that if you are sufficiently 'hooked' then people will persevere...and maybe if people were nicer, then the social aspects of Point 3 might ameliorate the downside of Point 2.
The point is, which of these can WE influence? I'd argue that Point 1 is not something that we have too much control over. And whilst we can't ever fasttrack the 'hours on the floor' that builds competence, good teaching and opportunities for practice can help those people who are captivated with tango.
And we can all work on point 3.
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