5134 Womans' Front Cross (was Expanding social
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:42:59 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Womans' Front Cross (was Expanding social
dancing to exhibition level?)
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Manuel,
In that case, why does the woman's front cross only happen when the man is walking outside partner on the right side?
Why doesn't it happen [inevitably] during a left side walk?
IMHO the woman's left foot front cross, during her backward walk, outside partner on the right side, has nothing to do with
the Giro [as much as I respect Gustavo]. It simply changes the partners' positions from outside to in-line. That's all it's for.
Keith, HK
On Fri Aug 24 10:42 , WHITE 95 R sent:
>
>Sorry folks, I should have said that one need not lead a front cross as opposed to a
>back cross after an open or side step. Obviously the man is leading the woman to take each
>and every step, but it's her responsability to follow the code of the tango. Once the firts step
>of a giro has been led, (direction and motion) the other steps come in a prescribed sequence.
>
>Manuel
>
>
>visit our webpage
t!
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:37:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Womans' Front Cross
> In that case, why does the woman's front cross only
> happen when the man is walking outside partner on the
> right side?
That's the open side of the embrace, so it's easier.
What I found odd was that although it doesn't take much for
me to cross, with Jon, I felt nothing, nada, zip. It would
seem to me that for him to develop that type of non-lead
must mean that the women must be doing it automatically in
his neck of the woods.
So, guys, could you comment on what actually happens with
the BsAs tangueras when you dance with them? Do you lead
it or not lead it when taking them to the cross? Is it
more like blocking the cross when you don't want them to
cross? Is it any different than what you feel in the
States?
By the way, Sean once commented after dancing with an older
tanguero that to get her to cross, it was like he had to
press the right button on her back, otherwise, she wasn't
going to cross.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:52:41 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Womans' Front Cross (was Expanding social
dancing to exhibition level?)
To: keith@tangohk.com, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:42:59 -0400, "Keith" <keith@tangohk.com> said:
> Manuel,
>
> In that case, why does the woman's front cross only happen when the man
> is walking outside partner on the right side?
This is not necessarily so. I can lead a cross in normal foot
without walking outside my partner.
> Why doesn't it happen [inevitably] during a left side walk?
The woman's job is to stay inside the frame set by the man.
Let's say that the man walks to the outside of the woman to
the left.
If he twists his spine so that his chest points a bit to the
right of the LOD at an angle, then she need not cross to keep
the frame. In that situation, I would expect her to twist her
to the right so our chests remain parallel while she walks in
the direction I lead. If so, when she steps back with her
right leg, it will open a bit, and when she steps back with
her left leg, she will cross in back a bit.
If the man should decide he does after all want her to cross,
then all he has to do is untwist his spine so that it points
directly down the LOD again, and she must cross to stay in
the frame.
So, to lead a cross without walking to the outside, the leader
simply needs to step forward to the outside about 10 cm with his
left foot, while pointing his chest a bit to the right. When
he closes with his right foot and point his chest directly down
the LOD again she has to cross.
I know of at least five ways to the cross is taught, and all
of them have the woman take a slight open step before she
crosses.
> IMHO the woman's left foot front cross, during her backward walk,
> outside partner on the right side, has nothing to do with the Giro
> [as much as I respect Gustavo]. It simply changes the partners'
> positions from outside to in-line. That's all it's for.
The step before the woman's front cross is always an open step,
which can be as little as one foots width of opening. From the
1st position of the 8CB then, we have open step, back step, open
step, front cross.
It's very blatant in the cross-foot basic, because that back step
before the cross is really a back cross.
It's like mathematics. Not everyone can appreciate it (nor should
we think better of those who do), but it has a pristine symmetry
about it I find deeply inspiring.
Christopher
> On Fri Aug 24 10:42 , WHITE 95 R sent:
>
> >
> > Sorry folks, I should have said that one need not lead a front cross as
> > opposed to a back cross after an open or side step. Obviously the man
> > is leading the woman to take each and every step, but it's her responsibility
> > to follow the code of the tango. Once the first step of a giro has been led,
> >(direction and motion) the other steps come in a prescribed sequence.
> >
> >Manuel
> >
> >
> From: white95r@hotmail.com> To: patangos@yahoo.com; tango-l@mit.edu> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:25:45 -0400> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Expanding social dancing to exhibition level?>>>> The automatic crossing was what I found a little curious.>> When I started tango many moons ago, automatically crossing>> was the norm. In the States it is not for the most part.>> However, Jon indicated that in BsAs, it was still the norm.>> Any comments about this?>> Trini,>> Many very respected teachers have taught me the same thing.> The tango has a code which is that the woman dances around the man with the> grapevine pattern (open, cross front. open, cross back, etc.). when the man steps> outside of the line, he becomes the center of the circle. In the typical sacada of the> 8CB, the woman begins her giro with a side step to the right. Since the man> is going forward along the LOD, the nest step is obviously a back step. The next step is an open or side step but since the man is guiding th!
>
>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 10:48:58 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Womans' Front Cross (was Expanding social
dancing to exhibition level?)
To: <keith@tangohk.com>, Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
This is due to a couple of reasons. One is convention and the other is because of the embrace. Actually, the embrace makes many steps to be more difficult to perform symmetrically because the embrace is asymmetrical. However, if the woman is led to do giros around the man in a CW direction, she will still obey the code and will do a front cross after the open step if the previous cross step was a back cross....
If you consider what is happening when the man walks outside of the woman on either side, it's possible to see than in one case the man is inside the circle and the woman is going around him even as he proceeds along the LOD. OTOH, when the man walks outside the woman, he is going around her and she's not doing the giro. For some reason that I don't know, when the tango cruzado came to be, the man stopped doing the giro or grapevine step. It is probably because when the LOD is followed and the embrace is maintained, it's simply easier for the man to walk along the LOD while inside, and the woman continues to try to go around him in the giro to the left (CCW).
Eduardo Arquimbau (among others) teaches that in the old days, the tango was danced without any regard for the LOD and both partners danced the grapevine steps while dancing sideways. Later they danced sideways along the LOD with the man in the inside of the circle. It was only later that the tango changed and it's danced with the man walking forward and the woman backwards along the LOD. If you ever get a chance to take classes with Eduardo and Gloria, you'll get a much better (and more fun) explanation of what I'm trying to convey.
Regards,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
> From: keith@tangohk.com
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:42:59 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Womans' Front Cross (was Expanding social dancing to exhibition level?)
>
> Manuel,
>
> In that case, why does the woman's front cross only happen when the man is walking outside partner on the right side?
> Why doesn't it happen [inevitably] during a left side walk?
>
> IMHO the woman's left foot front cross, during her backward walk, outside partner on the right side, has nothing to do with
> the Giro [as much as I respect Gustavo]. It simply changes the partners' positions from outside to in-line. That's all it's for.
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
> On Fri Aug 24 10:42 , WHITE 95 R sent:
>
> >
> >Sorry folks, I should have said that one need not lead a front cross as opposed to a
> >back cross after an open or side step. Obviously the man is leading the woman to take each
> >and every step, but it's her responsability to follow the code of the tango. Once the firts step
> >of a giro has been led, (direction and motion) the other steps come in a prescribed sequence.
> >
> >Manuel
> >
> >
> >visit our webpage
s!
> t!
>
>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:28:03 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Womans' Front Cross
To: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangodc.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:00:17 -0400
> From: spatz@tangoDC.com
>
> I've heard things about "the code of walking" too, from reputable
> people. But I'm unconvinced. Perhaps it has value as a stepping-stone
> for students. My current practice, however, is to shy away from things
> the student will have to unlearn.
>
> (This approach, I admit, may not prove the best; but it's the one I've
> stuck to for a while and the one I intend to stand by for some time yet.)
>
> Jake
> DC
Hi Jake,
I agree that teaching stuff that later has to be "unlearned" is not the best way to go. However, it's very difficult at times to get a certain idea or movement across without teaching something that later is proven wrong by an exception..... At any rate, I respectfully disagree with you on this. I don't think it will ever be necessary for a tango dancer to unlearn the code.... The sequence of steps in the giro is pretty much cast in stone.
Manuel
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 02:03:27 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Womans' Front Cross
To: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>, "Tango-L"
<tango-L@mit.edu>
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:00:17 -0400, "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)"
<spatz@tangoDC.com> said:
> Christopher,
>
> ceverett@ceverett.com wrote:
> >
> > The step before the woman's front cross is always an open step
> THIS is not necessarily so.
>
> E.g.--
>
> (1) One may lead step 4 of the 8CB (with or without its predecessors) as
> a back cross step-- i.e., to the leader's right-- and then lead the "5,"
> effecting a CW turn (or not).
I sometimes start down this path up to the point just before the weight
transfer onto the woman's left foot then open to my right to unwind her
and continue forwards in cross foot in 3 tracks.
> (2) (Same as above, different context) One may lead the normal cross
> during back ochos, as something resembling what I might call an
> "arrepentida cortada." (Unlike the above context, this one usually begs
> for a pause afterward.)
Hadn't thought of these as something that would lead explicitly to the
cross.
> (3) One may (esp in a very close embrace) lead to the cross from
> nowhere, by using a pivot to place the follower's leg and then a weight
> change to effect the cross. (Unlike both of the above, this one usually
> IS a pause.)
However, with the the 3rd option it seem to me that if you place the
followers right leg with a pivot to the left, what she will be doing is
an open step.
Now that you have me thinking, here is a 4th way: when leading extremely
shallow back ochos, so that the follower is just placing one foot right
behind the other, *gently* brush your the inner part of your right thigh
against the outside of the followers left thigh ... If her legs are
relaxed enough and you give them enough momentum with the sacada, she'll
have to cross.
> I've heard things about "the code of walking" too, from reputable
> people. But I'm unconvinced. Perhaps it has value as a stepping-stone
> for students. My current practice, however, is to shy away from things
> the student will have to unlearn.
>
> (This approach, I admit, may not prove the best; but it's the one I've
> stuck to for a while and the one I intend to stand by for some time yet.)
I'm a software guy. I look for things that our bodies do on the brain
stem level and reuse them for tango purposes. These are things already
built in, we just have to dress them up a bit to look nice.
Christopher
