4457  Women and Classes

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 00:50:19 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I can look at this from two vantage points: First as one who has been
there, and Second, as one who is now teaching. (sort of)

I started tango I think in 99, maybe 98. It was the first dance that did
not come naturally to me. I tried all the local teachers and settled on
a couple of them. I went to milongas and practiced. After about 6 months
I had my first private with Hernan Obispo. He was wonderful. I learned
many new concepts. I started to go to Tango weekends and festivals. I
felt like a part of the movie "They Shoot Horses Don't They" I would
take as many workshops as I could and dance at the milongas. My feet
would be a mess. I was always in blissful pain from a weekend of tango.
Then I met Daniela and Armando. I took all of their workshop classes and
then decided to take a private with Daniela.

After my first private with Daniela, I stopped going to group lessons
and tango festivals. I lived in San Francisco and they were in LA. Twice
a month I would go to LA to have 1 or 2 private lessons with her. I felt
then and I still do, that group lessons do not encourage a dancer to
develop. If anything you pick up more bad habits. A private lesson
focuses on your defects and hopefully a teacher who can correct them and
move you forward as a dancer. I strongly believe that 4 private lessons
with a good teacher is better than 12 group classes. Group classes can
only teach a pattern and a minimal of the basics. The focus has to be on
getting through the class.

I was lucky because when many of the teachers would come to the Bay Area
I would translate for them. In return they would give me a private
lesson. That and my frequent trips to BA really guided my dancing along.
In 2003 Jorge Nassel started to dance with me every time I came to
Buenos Aires, 6 days a week for 2 hours. They were practicas, not
lessons. I am not sure what his motivation was. He was always a
gentleman to me. He never charged me, I paid for the rehearsal space.
Once a friend of mine asked me if she could practice with him. He told
her that she still needed lessons. I only needed to practice.

I asked him about this. He said that you can only learn so much. Then
you need to practice. He said that people take so many workshops and
classes hoping to get better. They take from every teacher hoping to
become a better dancer. In his opinion the only thing that happened was
they became more confused and never became better dancers.

I have been dancing with Roberto for a year and a half now. I started
teaching with him earlier this year. Here is what I have noticed. We
mostly teach private lessons. In the lessons with men, we find that they
generally are serious about improving. Most of them are willing to work
very hard. They take the criticism whether it comes from me or him. They
ask lots of questions. They do not make excuses. Because I learned in
the U.S. I know why our American students do things a certain way. The
men usually do not counter a correction with "Well my teacher in the US
says....or this is how I learned to do it" They accept and move forward.
Most of them improve.

The women students are generally not as easy if they consider themselves
to be good dancers. They do not accept criticism. If you explain to them
why they need to hold themselves differently you get many excuses why
you are not right or why they cannot do it. Several women did not want
any comments from me at all. One woman told Roberto she did not come to
Buenos Aires to take lessons from an American. He was more insulted than
I was. (Personally I thought it was kind of funny) In general we get
more resistance from the women about accepting and moving forward. It is
almost as though most of them want validation.

Our European students vary from the Americans. Americans are crazy about
being perfect and doing it 100% right. Europeans seem more relaxed.
Argentine students come to us because of Roberto's reputation or they
saw us dancing in the milonga. They want to dance his style. They either
stay as students or leave. Rarely are there any comments. Of course this
is just our students. I have nothing else to compare to since this is
the first time I am teaching, and I am in Buenos Aires.

This being said, these are generalizations to be sure. We have had male
students who blame me for their not being able to do the movements
properly, others who insist on showing Roberto how the step should be
done. (He had a whole class once of a male student telling him, well
that is your step, here is mine.) There have been women who were very
serious students and were thrilled to find out the reasons why they were
not able to move as fluidly, and requested I work with them
independently on posture and movement. We had difficult European
students and Americans who were wonderful and Argentines who have been
told no more classes are available.

With regard to the balance of men and women in classes. I think it comes
in cycles, and it also depends on who the teacher is. When I lived in
San Francisco, the classes were heavier with women regardless of the
level. In LA they were heavier with men. Go figure. With some teachers
there would be more men, others more women. This is true here as well. I
have had people tell me that one day a teacher's class drew all 10 women
and 3 men, and on another day 12 men and 4 women.

I think the decision to continue to study is a personal one. Once my
rehab is through I will be studying with someone to correct what Roberto
calls my "little defects." I have not had a structured lesson in over 3
years. I am excited to study to continue to learn how to improve my
dance. No one can ever know it all.
The more I learn, the more I realize I need to learn. Some people
plateau and eventually move forward, others just stay at the same level.

And to Melanie who said "I'll never be the dancer I want to be, but will
continue to try." That is all any of us can do...and you just never
know, you might surprise yourself one day.

I personally agree with Igor who says. " If you are happy with your
dancing, whatever level you are, skip this message. You are doing great!
It is most important - to be happy. More classes will not make you happier"

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 07:15:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

<dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com> wrote:

> I personally agree with Igor who says. "...
> It is most important - to be happy. More classes
> will not make you happier"

And sometimes, more classes will make you less happy.
It seems to me that the reasons some women stop taking
classes are pretty straightforward. In the vast
majority of group classes, much more attention is paid
to the men (and I am using men and women to mean
leaders and followers here). You can reasonably say
that you have to get the men moving before the women
can do anything at all ??? if the leader stands with a
blank expression and his feet planted, there is no
dance to work with. But the common pattern is to work
with the leaders on the figure or technique under
discussion until they can blunder through it, and then
move on to the next figure, leaving practicing for
time outside of class. So the follower's experience
is one of being dragged, shoved, and put off balance
until the leaders just start to be able to do a figure
(at which point the follower might be able to work on
technique, expression, etc.) and then the class moves
on to the next thing. And for this, they pay the same
price as the guys on whom the instructor's attention
is being lavished.

I have taken classes where the instructor said we were
going to work on techniques for the women. In a
surprisingly large proportion of those classes, old
habits re-surfaced, and the instructor was soon
spending more than half their time on the men. And
many of the men chose to either wander around in a
lackluster way ??? or simply to ignore the point of
the exercises. The very last regular class I took as
a follower was supposed to be about followers adorning
or otherwise expressing the music. We did exercises
that were well within the limits of the technical
abilities of the dancers present (people who had
danced for 3-6 years); the leaders were asked to do a
number of simple figures and to pause at specific
points and then wait until they understood the
follower was ready to move on. The followers were
invited to see what they felt like doing when they
were guaranteed that the leaders were listening to
them and were not about to cut off the little flourish
or the little breath that pressed the follower tighter
against the leader or the slow sweep. We are not
talking weird, uncontrolled, embellishment here, just
the sort of movement where the follower contributes to
the conversation. The last guy I danced with chose to
ignore the programmed activity. He did the requested
figures about a quarter of the time, and filled in the
rest of the time with whatever tough figures he was
trying to work on from his last class. If he paused,
I missed it. I attempted to express the music, but I
suspect what I mostly expressed was increasing
irritation. As we finished the song we were paired
for, I did my best to salvage something from the dance
and instead of simply bringing my feet together as he
expected, I whipped my foot forward to sandwich one of
his. He laughed out loud, apparently in delighted
astonishment. He turned to the teacher, still
laughing, and said, "She grabbed my foot!" We all
smiled at one another. And then he said, "How do I
_make_ her do that?"

I'm taking classes as a leader now. And occasional
workshops, either as a leader or a follower, or both.
And the occasional private, as either. Is the leading
helping my following? I think so, but that's not why
I'm doing it. I know it's helping my dancing ??? I
understand the music better and interpret it more
freely; I dance with followers from whom I learn
something about following, and leaders from whom I
learn something about leading; I'm often happy when
I'm dancing and the followers I dance with seem to be
happy also most of the time. Why on earth would I pay
every week to be dragged around and ignored?

Marisa

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 02:48:44 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net

Marisa wrote:

> It seems to me that the reasons some women stop taking
> classes are pretty straightforward. In the vast
> majority of group classes, much more attention is paid
> to the men. You can reasonably say that you have to get

the men moving before the women can do anything at all if
the leader stands with

> a blank expression and his feet planted, there is no dance

to work with.

> Marisa

Well, then I wonder about the instruction. The teacher
should concentrate on the WOMAN'S steps, not the man's. If
men just concentrate on their own steps, they can only
memorize, maybe the first six steps. However, if they learn
the figure or pattern from the woman's point, e.g. molinete,
followed by sweep on HER side step to the man's right, ocho,
stepover, and walk out, it's much easier to execute and
remember than what does the man do with his feet.

I remember going to a tango festival in Reno, NV. I took
meticulous notes on what I was supposed to do. When I got
home, I excitedly showed them to my teacher. He spent a few
seconds and said "And what are you trying to get the woman
to do?" My jaw hit the floor so hard it bounced back up to
my chin. That was a defining moment for me in tango -- and a
Kodak moment for my teacher.

The other issue is have people signed up for classes that
are just beyond their skill level.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Three weeks to NY Tango Festival www.celebratetango.com

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 01:53:24 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: "Marisa Holmes" <mariholmes@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>

> I personally agree with Igor who says. "...
> It is most important - to be happy. More classes
> will not make you happier"

And sometimes, more classes will make you less happy.

That is partly true but it really depends on the kind of classes you take
and WITH WHO(m) !

You can reasonably say
that you have to get the men moving before the women
can do anything at all 窶・瘢雹if the leader stands with a
blank expression and his feet planted, there is no
dance to work with. But the common pattern is to work
with the leaders on the figure or technique under
discussion until they can blunder through it, and then
move on to the next figure, leaving practicing for
time outside of class. So the follower's experience
is one of being dragged, shoved, and put off balance
until the leaders just start to be able to do a figure
(at which point the follower might be able to work on
technique, expression, etc.) and then the class moves
on to the next thing.

I know exactly what you mean, Marisa, even though I have never encountered a
man who just stands there when he is supposed to practise a step. Sometimes,
a man may ask me:"Do you remember what we are supposed to do?" I almost
never remember anything, as Ezequiel trained me systematically to have my
mind go blank, regarding steps and being led. He ideally prefered if women
did not watch, or at least, did not move while he showed a new step in his
group lessons. So, in that case I always call over the teacher and ask
him/her to show the man what to do one more time.
And yes, I hate it too when the teachers simply move on to the next, even
more complicated move on their agenda, when none of the men have really
understood the lead of the former yet. Talk about cheating yourself thru a
class as teacher ! My boss and me, both working at the same educational
institution, would stand in the back and mutter about the self-declared
tango teacher's lack of a pedagogical concept...

And for this, they pay the same
price as the guys on whom the instructor's attention
is being lavished.

Yes ! So true ! We also pay the same when there are almost no men around and
the teachers and assistents lavish all their attention on the wealthy female
students taking the most private lessons, and ignore those who just dance
and learn, in grupos as well as milongas.
I remember, I once said to the man who ran the practica I attended for
years, after plucking me out of the arms of an advanced dancer to give him a
female clueless beginner, and then making me practise with a male clueless
beginner:"I think, instead of me paying you, you should pay me to come here
!" The teacher said:"Hush", flashed me a smile, appeased and cuddled me and
showered me with his irresistible Argentine charm, remembered my words for
two weeks, and then did the same thing to me again... Nevertheless, I loved
him and his warmnth and his hospitality, even if he had me want to pretend
to strangle him in front of his students at times...; )

I have taken classes where the instructor said we were
going to work on techniques for the women. In a
surprisingly large proportion of those classes, old
habits re-surfaced, and the instructor was soon
spending more than half their time on the men.

the classes that I have attended with technique for women were always
organised much like a "secret meeting of conspiring sisters", much like
belly dance classes are. Only the women would meet with the female teacher,
and she would give us all kinds of advice and show us little tricks, that
became our precious little secrets and were never explained to the men. Or
if not that, then at least, like during a group class with our local Juan
Guida and his former teacher, Melina Brufman, Melina took all the women
aside for a while and showed them how to do adornos. Meanwhile, Juan worked
with the men. Or she would get all the "superfluous" women, while he taught
the couples that could be paired up from the number of students, and then
they exchanged the groups of women.
Coppello worked that way too, when he was here. His new partner would work
with the women on technique while they were waiting for their turn to dance
with the men.

And
many of the men chose to either wander around in a
lackluster way 窶・瘢雹or simply to ignore the point of
the exercises.

I think, you were in the wrong class.

The very last regular class I took as
a follower was supposed to be about followers adorning
or otherwise expressing the music. We did exercises
that were well within the limits of the technical
abilities of the dancers present (people who had
danced for 3-6 years); the leaders were asked to do a
number of simple figures and to pause at specific
points and then wait until they understood the
follower was ready to move on. The followers were
invited to see what they felt like doing when they
were guaranteed that the leaders were listening to
them and were not about to cut off the little flourish

And you say, these people had been dancing 3-6 years already????
In my experioence, inserting adornos are not something you can really teach
in class. The teacher will teach a combination that has an adorno in it.
Fine, works, as long as all the students agree on practising the same step.
Or the female teacher will teach firuletes as such to the women, and during
which moves to insert them. But the interactive play of the couple, with the
woman taking her time, and the man giving her time til she finishes, I
think, this is a skill you can only acquire by dancing in practicas and
milongas. Dancing when you don't know what the steps are going to be and
finding your moment. With some men, this is very easy, they are simply the
type who accepts having the woman do her thing and contribute to the dance.
It does not wiork with the "authoritarian" type I described before, who
wants to control the woman at all times. There will never be enough time,
unless you use physical power to slow him down and make him stop and wait
for you. But he will probably resent that and look for someone more "fluffy"
next time. .
(Did you know that some veil wearing Arab women think that Western women are
more violently suppressed than they are? At least they can just take off the
veil and be themselves at certain times...)

He did the requested
figures about a quarter of the time, and filled in the
rest of the time with whatever tough figures he was
trying to work on from his last class. If he paused,
I missed it.

Maybe he was just trying to dance, instead of walking through the same moves
all the time. No?

I whipped my foot forward to sandwich one of
his. He laughed out loud, apparently in delighted
astonishment. He turned to the teacher, still
laughing, and said, "She grabbed my foot!" We all
smiled at one another. And then he said, "How do I
_make_ her do that?"

Men!!!

Gavito was a great one for showing how to stop the man. He told me during a
privada:"The man may not expect this, but if you stop him like this, he
will..." and he drew an invisible zipper across his mouth, looking into my
eyes with a very "significant" look.. As though the man would be so thrilled
with having the woman pressing against and rising against his chest like a
dancing cobra at step #3 (Gavito took the woman's role to show me what he
meant and made me feel it with my body) that he would swallow all his macho
complaints and let himself be seduced by her into stopping to see what other
sexy tricks she had in mind (you go on by doing sexual games on the floor,
expressing your subdued passion and desire with your feet, for lack of
movable hands...) . Unfortunately, I never really got much of a chance to
practise the move he showed me. Maybe I should have learned more about it,
but Gavito's fees for privadas were astronomic, and I could take only 60
minutes. Also, Gavito was short, much smaller in real life than he looked on
stage. It was the time before he announced publicly that he was going to die
soon..

I'm taking classes as a leader now. Why on earth would I pay
every week to be dragged around and ignored?

But why, Marisa, do you keep going to that school of mediocre teachers and
students who don't know how to work with adornos even after 3-6 years?
Once somebody gave me excellent advice when I tried to find a good flamenco
teacher: "Look at his advanced students. If they are looking good, he is a
good teacher. If even the students in the advanced classes look mediocre,
you will never learn much with him. Go find someone else immediately."

I have never thought of taking on leading, in spite of all my exasperation
with teachers, classes, lack of men and the people dancing around me.
Dancing with a woman, or leading a man simply does not give me that High
that I am looking for. Morevover, leading is not usually encouraged much in
women here, unless a woman is asked to "help out" in a very unbalanced class
by becoming an extra man for a while. After all, our teachers are from
Argentina.
If I get all too frustrated with the dancers or the teachers, I simply go
somewhere else for a while. In Tokyo, you can go to one or several places to
dance tango practically every day of the week.

And as for that discussion on whether to take classes or not, in my opinion,
this subject is ridiculous. This is starting to remind me of the fanatic
milonguero fraction putting everyone else down for being inauthentic, and
the "salon" dancers" fighting back by saying, milonguero style people can't
really dance.
Only the completely ignorant would assume that people take EITHER lessons OR
go to milongas, that they EITHER learn OR dance. What nonsense. As though
learning and practising were mutually exclusive. Lessons are not some kind
of lab where you learn grey theory before you venture out into real life.
And milongas are not places for those "privileged" dancers who are
"intelligent" enough *not* to take lessons. Give us all a break, Chris. You
are simply defending the fact that you are not taking any lessons yourself.
So don't ! If you believe in that approach, why don't you just do that,
without asking 1100 people to agree with you, that this is the right way?

Astrid
in her supposedly insufferably direct German self ; )

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 20:39:31 +0200
From: Andy <andy.ungureanu@t-online.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

astrid schrieb:

> And as for that discussion on whether to take classes or not, in my opinion,
> this subject is ridiculous. This is starting to remind me of the fanatic
> milonguero fraction putting everyone else down for being inauthentic, and
> the "salon" dancers" fighting back by saying, milonguero style people can't
> really dance.
> Only the completely ignorant would assume that people take EITHER lessons OR
> go to milongas, that they EITHER learn OR dance. What nonsense.

Nobody said this. The message was :"infinite classes do not necessarily
produce better dancers" and "improvements do not necessarily require
classes". We are not talking about beginners here, we are talking about
people who are beyond the first years when everything related to tango
is great, classes, milongas, festivals, 7 days /week, who already
learned the fundamentals and all basic elements.
How many teachers tell their students: " I teached you everything you
need to know. I can continue showing you things, but it's time for you
to use your own brain and make your own way" ?
I know only one.
We have a kind of consumer mentality to buy things for money, pay a
teacher to fix a problem, like going to a garage the fix the car.
Especially when the problem is not very clear, there will be no
satisfaction.
If I have a problem in my job I don't go back to the university after 20
years and ask my professor how to solve it. He teached me how to solve
problems, now it's up to me to do it. I can of course talk with
colleagues about it, or look how the concurrence dealed with it. Only if
I tried and didn't find anything good I may pay a consultant to give me
advice. But at the end it's me to make it.

What I mean is, the key to become better is to use your own brain,
occasionally input by others is not excluded, but not the real solution.

Andy

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 17:30:39 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: tango-L@mit.edu

Deby (et al),

Thanks for your enlightening (and empirically based) post. I've found
the same generalizations to be very true in casual settings as well as
formal ones, whether as a teacher or an (unintentionally) eavesdropping
student.

I'd be curious to learn what (solo) female teachers experience with
female students in private lessons. Whether there's the same resistance
to revision. Whether there's the same tendency of excuse-making prior to
experiment. Whether there's the same apparent need for validation. I
imagine the presence of a male teacher could bring these traits to the
fore, but I simply don't know if they arise in the absence of one as
well. When the veils are off, so to speak.

As for overdoing "classes" (etc.) ... I don't know if that's possible
for either sex, so long as the individual is practicing and dancing as
well. As a person committed to learning, I'd even say that sometimes
classes, practice, and study Are the tango in its ideal form: milongas,
with their annoying focus on personal pleasure, can sometimes seem
inferior to them.

To go out on a limb, I'd even venture that Pleasure itself, and being
hungry for it, is what ruins things as often as deficient musicality, a
comatose DJ, or klutzy partners. I tell my students to have fun, sure.
But I also tell them to make sure they Give their partner a dance, and
to forgo the expectation of Getting one. Without exception, every great
dance I've had was a moment of mutual generosity. Every shitty one was a
moment of unsatisfied need. Every mediocre one has been a one-way exchange.

I think we often ignore this. On the list, anyway.

Sean earlier expressed a complaint about women who want to be taken care
of. Lois seconded the complaint on a technical level. That's exactly the
petty conceit I'm talking about.

Others have spoken about people running off to BA (or wherever) to find
themselves adequate partners. That's as pettier as it is more expensive.
And when there are people in your hometown who could be cultivated by
your partnering them, it's also a big fat cop-out.

Teachers and organizers, for the most part, give a lot to their
communities. They give good dances: they run events, often without
making any money: they give up their free time (or other, more lucrative
freelance opportunities) to teach private classes. I won't try to speak
for everyone, but I will say that for some of us, money has passing
little to do with it. Many of us give far more than we receive, because
we're not out to receive anything: we're out to spread knowledge and
help dancers improve. Men _and_ women.

If you, like Chris, UK, find many lessons to offer useless material, I
can only conclude you haven't yet found the right application for the
lesson. For my part, I've never seen a teacher present anything useless,
only things that I hadn't developed a use for at that moment. When the
right context appears, the lesson pops into mind of its own accord, and
dances itself. Blaming a teacher for this taking its time is not going
to make you grow any faster. Neither is weighing a lesson by the scales
of your ego.

This thread began with an observation that women were not improving,
after they reach a certain level of proficiency, while men continue
making progress. It somehow got sidetracked into a discussion on the
benefits and hazards (mostly the hazards) of learning to dance by
working under a teacher. I don't think the initial observation is even
remotely accurate, but that hardly matters by now. Perhaps it's my
education talking, or perhaps it's my nature, but I've seldom worked
under a teacher without working with and for other dancers. I continued
going to classes which were well below (fanfare) "my level" just to see
how things were taught, and to see how well I could help others drive
the teaching into their bones. Likewise I've assisted at beginner's
classes to help bring people up. These were among the best _learning_
experiences I've had, and they are what ultimately convinced me to
accept my first teaching invitations, after rejecting several.

On that note, I encourage everyone to shut up about their own goddamn
dance, and go make it happen for someone else. Hit a beginner's class,
where almost no one knows you; don't say a word; just make it good for
them. If you don't succeed, you have Not outgrown that class yet.

This should be obvious too (but, infuriatingly, isn't): If you are happy
with your dance, count your happiness M a n u r e . Your happiness isn't
worth a handful of mulch in the desert. Only your partner's is worth a
damn. This bears repeating especially to women, who have learned this
dance by hearing the opposite stated ad nauseam. "It's always the
leader's fault." "The woman's comfort is what matters." Yeah? That's a
sorry defense for the Gimme syndrome. Pick a dude you can't stand, and
give him the best dance of your life. If you can't, or won't--

M a n u r e .

If you find yourself, man or woman, _blaming_ your partners, go to a
beginner's class, where that excuse doesn't count. Learn there to _give_
a good dance. The odds are stacked in your favor. It ought to be nearly
effortless, unless you're also a beginner.

I'm not talking about charity or pity dances either. I'm talking about
the selflessness that underlies all teamwork. The playmaker attitude,
not the all-star grin.

Followers who have trouble finding their voice in the dance, or who are
under the impression that everything depends on their partner, might
especially benefit from this particular more-than-an-exercise. I have no
idea why so many women are convinced that, when they've reached a decent
level of skill, only a good leader can help them really dance. A good
leader can make Me dance, and I can barely follow at all (according to
my standards, at least). If a woman is really something, she can shine
in the arms of a novice, and raise him up a notch while she's at it.
Vice versa for leaders.

All you need is an ounce of bohemian will. And to leave all this
bureaucratic egocentric status bullshit where it belongs.

In the workplace.

Jake Spatz
Washington, DC

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 00:25:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes

Hi Jake,

Nicely put (for the most part).

I'm not sure if your comment about my and Lois' complaints
("That's exactly the petty conceit I'm talking about.") was
directed at the complaints, the complainers or both. ;)

Also, your comment "Whether there's the same apparent need
for validation." is not entirely fair, or in keeping with
the remainder of your message. Providing validation might
be one of the most generous acts one human can perform for
another, particularly in our "egocentric status bullshit"
culture. It can be strong motivator for continuing
education, if it is used carefully. Of course, there are
some "master" teachers whose high fees for privates might
be more for paid praise than for useful education, but that
is a different discussion. I think to withhold legitimate
validation would do more damage than false validation. The
ideal situation would be to validate the person while
critiquing their dance.

Sean


--- "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com> wrote:

<snip>
I'd be curious to learn what (solo) female teachers
experience with female students in private lessons. Whether
there's the same resistance to revision. Whether there's
the same tendency of excuse-making prior to experiment.
Whether there's the same apparent need for validation.
<snip>
Sean earlier expressed a complaint about women who want to
be taken care of. Lois seconded the complaint on a
technical level. That's exactly the petty conceit I'm
talking about.
<snip>

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 06:19:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: tango-L@mit.edu

--- "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com> wrote:

> I'd be curious to learn what (solo) female teachers
> experience with
> female students in private lessons. Whether there's the
> same resistance
> to revision. Whether there's the same tendency of
> excuse-making prior to
> experiment. Whether there's the same apparent need for
> validation.

I remember one advanced workshop in which I partnered (as a
lead) a woman who came in late and didn't want to do an
easy technique the teacher taught the women earlier because
she preferred her own (less efficient) habit. She threw
part of her workshop money down the drain! I have never
had that happen with a man.

I do not encounter any resistance in privates from either
men or women but that is probably because we attract very
open-minded people who travel and dance wherever they can.
I have noticed, however, that both women and men who are in
their own little world (they don't travel, rarely attend
other people's events, only dance with certain partners,
etc.) are resistant, such as the woman above. They think
they can't learn from others at a practica, so they don't
and they stagnate. To others, this attitude is as clear as
day, so they don't bother to share the truth with those
people.

This is different from people who will question me when
what I say counters something else they have heard. They
are simply trying to reconcile the differences, not resist
them.

Trini de Pittsburgh




PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm

Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 12:47:04 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Jake,

I feel as though you are misconstruing some things.

No one blames their partner - they are merely observing that some partners
are better than others. But that's part of life, law of nature. I had said
this before many times, I'd rather dance the most simple of tangos with the
man who has the best sense of musicality than dance the most complex of
steps with a man who doesn't have the spirit of tango. My partner thinks
that to look good, he has to make me do very fancy steps with big kicks, not
knowing that it was inappropriate for the song that was playing or the kind
of milonga we were at. I've always had to tell him many times to keep it
simple, especially because he was not good enough to attempt the fancier
stuff - and by that, I mean, bad balance or not letting me finish a step
before he moves onto the next one or having such a weak embrace/weak core
that I have to grip onto his arms so as to not go flying off the floor when
he spins me around. The most common problem of a beginner leader, I find, is
a weak touch. His hand that is holding me, there should be a touch of
resistance if I push my hand against his, if he holds his left hand too far
back instead of keeping his elbow ahead of his ribcage, he's making his arm
weak, and thus not very supportive when support is needed. Good leaders have
excellent support in their arms and shoulders and always lean a bit forward.
Bad leaders have weak arms and lean a little too far back or lean too far
forward from the waist and they don't move their shoulders.

I mean, when it all comes down to it - we love tango because of its love
music expressed through dancing, steps come second. I don't have issues with
my partner because he doesn't know the steps, I have issues with his
approach - it's very uptight and tense.

Secondly, you talk about helping one's partner get better. Well, I can't
force my partner to be better nor am I going to deny myself the opportunity
to dance with people who are at my level, not his. There's a saying "you can
only help those who want to help themselves." I've done everything in my
power to help my partner and he still doesn't get it because he is not
assimilating feedback. I've now realized that tango is a lie detector - you
can't hide who you are in your dancing. If you're uptight, it shows, if
you're insecure it shows, if you're a happy person, that shows too. As it
turns out, my partner is vey proud and hates not looking good and hates it
even more when he's being corrected in public, no matter if it's in class,
practica or at a milonga. That kind of attitude is what impedes learning and
what makes him look bad and what makes him get rejected at milongas. If he's
not willing to get over himself and his pride, he's going to have a very
difficult time improving.

You say you can't understand why a follower, after a certain point, can only
improve with a good leader. Is it obvious to everyone except you? I am way
ahead of my partner and now make an effort to dance with good leaders for
two reasons: to learn and to enjoy myself. If you get to a point where your
partner is actually holding you back from improving or influencing you with
his bad habits- then you have to decide if you are going to be content with
that or if you want to keep learning by dancing with better leaders. I am
still taking classes with my partner simply because he asked me to and I
agreed because he's a good friend. I am tempted many times to take classes
without him because I really don't enjoy dancing with him but no, I am
sticking by him and practicing with him because outside of tango, he does
many things for me. Does that mean that I can't go practice without him,
not at all. Does that mean I am a bad or selfish person for wanting to dance
with other people as well, not at all!

You can you can hardly follow a good leader - I find that's quite
commonplace for many men. I've even seen male teachers struggle to follow,
as if it goes entirely against their grain to follow - although I suspect
it's ego that was being affronted. Whenever I see a man struggling to follow
- I feel a bit gratified because it's like "See! It's not that easy now, is
it?"

Also, how can a good follower raise a novice leader up a notch when he's the
one doing the leading and it's bad taste to correct them if you happen to be
at a milonga? I've danced with some beginner leaders from my school and this
is what I've noticed - they never ask for feedback, they never ask how they
can improve. If they did, I would have been glad to help them but otherwise
I keep my mouth shut because I know how it was a monumental act of courage
for them just to show up at a milonga. Second thing I've noticed is that
simply put - a man really doesn't like to be corrected by a woman, they just
don't. A classic example would be that a man never asks for directions or
read the instructions, their male ego just won't let them. if a woman tries
to help, it's even worse. (I am thinking of a car trip to Boston with my ex,
he absolutely refused to ask for directions nor to accept my navigational
skills and as a result, we got lost many times, usually in the middle of the
night in the middle of nowhere. If he would have just put aside his ego and
actually listen, we could have saved ourselves many a fight).

When I see male students being corrected, I can see that they don't take it
well as if it was personal. They get easily embarrassed and flustered and
then quit. Women, on the other hand, are very receptive and soak up every
little bit of information they can get and they hardly ever quit. I also
find that men always think they are right. Many times in class, when I tried
to point out to my partner the correct way to do a step, we would argue
until a teacher would step in and say to my partner that he should have
listened to me. A man simply does not like to admit that a woman is right.
So again, how does an advanced follower teacher a novice leader if that's
the mindset he's going to have?

One complaint I've often heard from male beginner leaders is that their
partner would lead too much. Then I would tell them to say something. In my
beginner's class, I had a tendency to lead instead of waiting to see what my
partner would do next. He quickly got rid of that bad habit of mine by
making me wait, pivoting me, for upwards to one minute before he would make
his next move. And each time, I failed to follow properly, he would make me
wait again and again until he got his point across. if a woman is now in
intermediate level and still leading by stepping ahead of her partner, it's
his fault for not making her stop doing that. How's a woman supposed to know
if her partner doesn't point it out and make her stop?

I think men take longer to learn because their ego is slowing them down.
Many times when I would talk with beginner leaders at milongas, I would ask
them why aren't they asking women to dance, and they would say they didn't
want to embarrass themselves and that they were just there to watch and
listen to the music. So I would ask them to dance with me and I find that
they really do get very nervous, thinking the whole world can see how bad
they are. Everybody was a beginner once, I would remind them, every single
person in this room, no matter how good they are, was once a beginner.

And I've been hearing over and over again from men on this list - that women
always complain that they are not being "taken care of" or that men don't
let them show off their embellishments. It's so strange to me because I've
never once heard a woman complain that a man doesn't let her show off. Not
even once. I complain though if women get too carried away with kicks and
long steps because I've got nicks and bruises to prove that such things
really don't belong at a Milonga. In the beginning, I didn't say anything
because I didn't know better but now that I've become a regular at Milongas,
I now know that there's a time and place for different styles of tango. If
you've got lots of room on the floor, fine, do your adornments and kick up
your heels all you want but in a crowded room, please exercise some
commonsense and consideration. Embellishments have their time and place, you
can't just do them anytime at will with complete disregard for the music or
the space around you. if you do, you would look like a fool and even worse,
a show-off. Last milonga I went to, I saw a beautiful young woman do
embellishments every third step, it seemed. She was technically very good
but I thought it ridiculous to do so many embellishments in one song, it
seemed as if she so badly wanted to say "look at me! look at me!". Less is
more.

And finally, at my school, intermediate and advanced students join in
beginner's classes to help balance out the male-female ratio and also to get
more practice. I would be glad to step in and help out if it weren't for the
fact that there were already too many women and not enough men.

So Jake, and other disgruntled men on this list - if you have an issue with
a partner - either tell her or don't dance with her anymore - either way,
she'll get the point. Only time I refuse to dance with a man is when I know
his insecurity and ego is going to get in the way of enjoyment.

Caroline



"If you find yourself, man or woman, _blaming_ your partners, go to a
beginner's class, where that excuse doesn't count. Learn there to _give_
a good dance. The odds are stacked in your favor. It ought to be nearly
effortless, unless you're also a beginner.

I'm not talking about charity or pity dances either. I'm talking about
the selflessness that underlies all teamwork. The playmaker attitude,
not the all-star grin.

Followers who have trouble finding their voice in the dance, or who are
under the impression that everything depends on their partner, might
especially benefit from this particular more-than-an-exercise. I have no
idea why so many women are convinced that, when they've reached a decent
level of skill, only a good leader can help them really dance. A good
leader can make Me dance, and I can barely follow at all (according to
my standards, at least). If a woman is really something, she can shine
in the arms of a novice, and raise him up a notch while she's at it.
Vice versa for leaders."

Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:54:14 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

Caroline Polack wrote:

> When I see male students being corrected, I can see that they don't take it
> well as if it was personal. They get easily embarrassed and flustered and
> then quit. Women, on the other hand, are very receptive and soak up every
> little bit of information they can get and they hardly ever quit. I also
> find that men always think they are right.

Enough with the war of the sexes already - exchange "man" for "woman"
and the statement makes just about as much sense - i.e. none.

Misplaced pride isn't genetically (or even culturally) tied to XY vs.
XX - neither is genuine curiosity and eagerness to learn.


--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 13:12:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

--- Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> wrote:

> Enough with the war of the sexes already - exchange
> "man" for "woman"
> and the statement makes just about as much sense -
> i.e. none.

Yes, absolutely. Caroline is angry at her partner and
finds him unreceptive to advice. Everyone has felt
this way about their partner at some time or other.
Most tango classes are full of people who are, right
at that instant, blaming their partner for whatever
difficulty they are experiencing. Fine - that's human
nature - and inexperience. After a while, you learn
that you may be contributing to the problem. And if
you take privates or work in practicas with more
experienced dancers you learn to ask yourself every
time something goes wrong if any of your own personal
bad habits are playing up. I myself find that many
problems I have while following, even if it seems like
a problem with the lead, are ameliorated by toning up
my abdominal muscles at the moment of difficulty.

But saying that men won't take advice, or women don't
want to hear that anything is wrong? No way. I both
lead and follow, and take (or have taken) classes in
both. In my experience there are individuals of both
sexes who resist advice - or resist advice from anyone
except the instructor or someone else they feel is a
great deal more experienced than themselves. Some of
these folks are arrogant, sure. Some of them are
confused and upset, and if they knew enough to
understand the advice and were calm enough to consider
it, they would take it. And some of them are right,
some of the time, because some of the advice is just
plain wrong.

There are also people of both sexes who are glad to
hear advice or observations. If you will take _my_
unsolicited advice, you will not offer it to them
while you are dancing socially, no matter what. Take
it to the class, the practica, or at least off the
floor.

I think I have experienced a difference between men
and women in how likely they are to argue if they want
to give me advice and I reject it, but it could be a
sample size error, so I won't advance that theory.

Marisa

Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 16:45:11 -0400
From: mallpasso@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu


I think that after two years of group classes any further group classes for women are a waste of their time and money since most of these classes are geared towards leaders learning new steps, etc. Instead, women should focus on taking privates to work on their technique. Ditto for men, but after four years of group classes, so they can also work on their technique.

My two cents worth.

El Bandido de Tango
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 17:21:22 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

mallpasso@aol.com wrote:

> I think that after two years of group classes any further group
> classes for women are a waste of their time and money since most of
> these classes are geared towards leaders learning new steps, etc.
> Instead, women should focus on taking privates to work on their
> technique. Ditto for men, but after four years of group classes,
> so they can also work on their technique.
>
> My two cents worth.
>
> El Bandido de Tango

I sort of have the opposite feeling, or at least, let me make the
opposite case.

(1) Men need lots of floor time just to practice the vocabulary and
develop muscle memory. This would mean a lot of expense if he only
took privates. So, I would say that men need group classes from the
start just to get sufficient (enforced?) practice time. Of course
they also can benefit from privates, but I usually recommend to men
that they get some basic vocabulary under their belt before working
in private.

(2) Women benefit immensely from privates at first, as their initial
learning is mostly about technique, and being molded to be good
followers in multiple styles. In beginner group classes (or with
intermediates at the practice!) women can easily mold to bad habits.

It is true that Beginner women's SOCIAL experience is greatly
enhanced by getting to know all the men in their group. They are much
happier at the practicas and milongas with friends from class.

As women move to Intermediate and up, women definitely need the
experience of group lessons in order to try their skills with
different men. Just as it is for the men, it up to the woman to learn
how to make the dance work for their partners. An Intermediate
follower can make the move work for a Beginner guy; an Advanced woman
can make the move work for an Intermediate guy.

To a certain extent, the women who claim the men can't lead, are not
as accomplished as they think.




Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 19:39:41 +0000
From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Your comments are at least historically valid about the worthlessness of
group classes for followers beyond a certain point. However, that
observation also has been made by many others in addition to yourself over
the years. As a result, at least here in Portland, there has been a growing
effort on the part of instructors to include content aimed specifically at
followers and their technique. In conclusion, I would say that this
evolution in teaching is changing the landscape, and, again at least in
Portland, it is becoming less and less true that followers cannot benefit
from group classes even with several years of experience.

J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com


----Original Message Follows----

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 16:26:46 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: jayrabe@hotmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu

Hi Jay,

I also disagree with Bandido's observation. Perhaps his observation is true
for some locales, but if any woman (follower) fails to gain knowledge and
skill in our classes, it's not because we don't devote a lot of attention to
the follower's part. It really is very hard to dance tango with a woman who
cannot or does not know how to do it. The woman's part of the tango requires
a lot of skill and knowledge. We spend considerable time developing methods
to explain and teach the woman's technique. Group classes have their
strengths and weaknesses, but concentrating on the men's technique and steps
while ignoring the woman's development are not parts of it.

Respectfully,

Manuel

visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com

>From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
>Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 19:39:41 +0000
>
>Your comments are at least historically valid about the worthlessness of
>group classes for followers beyond a certain point. However, that
>observation also has been made by many others in addition to yourself over
>the years. As a result, at least here in Portland, there has been a growing
>effort on the part of instructors to include content aimed specifically at
>followers and their technique. In conclusion, I would say that this
>ewoman (volution in teaching is changing the landscape, and, again at least
>in
>Portland, it is becoming less and less true that followers cannot benefit
>from group classes even with several years of experience.
>
> J in Portland
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: mallpasso@aol.com
>
>
>I think that after two years of group classes any further group classes for
>women are a waste of their time and money since most of these classes are
>geared towards leaders learning new steps, etc. Instead, women should
>focus
>on taking privates to work on their technique. Ditto for men, but after
>four years of group classes, so they can also work on their technique.
>
>My two cents worth.
>
>El Bandido de Tango
>Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and
>IM. All on demand. Always Free.
>
>

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 14:34:12 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I'll second what Jay says.

Perhaps you are taking classes from the wrong teachers. There are a
number of excellent teacher who present material for both the men and
the women. Ask around. Try taking from different teachers.



On Jul 10, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Jay Rabe wrote:

> Your comments are at least historically valid about the
> worthlessness of
> group classes for followers beyond a certain point. However, that
> observation also has been made by many others in addition to
> yourself over
> the years. As a result, at least here in Portland, there has been a
> growing
> effort on the part of instructors to include content aimed
> specifically at
> followers and their technique. In conclusion, I would say that this
> evolution in teaching is changing the landscape, and, again at
> least in
> Portland, it is becoming less and less true that followers cannot
> benefit
> from group classes even with several years of experience.
>
> J in Portland
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: mallpasso@aol.com
>
>
> I think that after two years of group classes any further group
> classes for
> women are a waste of their time and money since most of these
> classes are
> geared towards leaders learning new steps, etc. Instead, women
> should focus
> on taking privates to work on their technique. Ditto for men, but
> after
> four years of group classes, so they can also work on their technique.
>
> My two cents worth.
>
> El Bandido de Tango

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:49:21 -0700
From: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: "Tom Stermitz" <stermitz@tango.org>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<183484970607101349s692b083ew95609665c5d4bfc1@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,
I have the singularly good fortune of living six months of the year in
Portland Oregon, and six months of the year in Fort Lauderdale,
Florida. All the teachers in Portland (and there are many) seem to me
to spend an equal amount of time in their group lessons on follower
techniques. Often as a warm up, everyone, leaders and followers spend
time walking backwards in a giant circle. Although this is primarily
for the followers, I think I have benefited as a leader too. If
anyone here gets the chance to take group classes from Oscar Caballero
and Roxana Garber in North Miami Florida, there is no question that
they are very very concerned with follower technique - try them and
see.
Happy tango-ing.
Ed

On 7/10/06, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:

> I'll second what Jay says.
>
> Perhaps you are taking classes from the wrong teachers. There are a
> number of excellent teacher who present material for both the men and
> the women. Ask around. Try taking from different teachers.
>
>
>
> On Jul 10, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Jay Rabe wrote:
>
> > Your comments are at least historically valid about the
> > worthlessness of
> > group classes for followers beyond a certain point. However, that
> > observation also has been made by many others in addition to
> > yourself over
> > the years. As a result, at least here in Portland, there has been a
> > growing
> > effort on the part of instructors to include content aimed
> > specifically at
> > followers and their technique. In conclusion, I would say that this
> > evolution in teaching is changing the landscape, and, again at
> > least in
> > Portland, it is becoming less and less true that followers cannot
> > benefit
> > from group classes even with several years of experience.
> >
> > J in Portland
> > www.TangoMoments.com
> >
> > ----Original Message Follows----
> > From: mallpasso@aol.com
> >
> >
> > I think that after two years of group classes any further group
> > classes for
> > women are a waste of their time and money since most of these
> > classes are
> > geared towards leaders learning new steps, etc. Instead, women
> > should focus
> > on taking privates to work on their technique. Ditto for men, but
> > after
> > four years of group classes, so they can also work on their technique.
> >
> > My two cents worth.
> >
> > El Bandido de Tango
>
>

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 17:02:48 -0400
From: rtara <rtara@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: Ed Doyle <doyleed@gmail.com>, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

We had a teacher here in the OTHER Portland, who was masterful in creating
classes that everyone could benefit from. The were about balance, quality of
movement and body awareness. Women, as well as, men at any level, could
gain from these classes.

Naturally, there were a few "steps" that used the skills that were being
taught.

Many tango dancers have never taken any other kind of dance or movement
classes. To be taught by a trained dancer in dance technique adds so much to
one's ability to dance confidently, but also to more profit from "Step"
classes. This guy had also graduated from medical school, so he had a
wonderful understanding of body structure, as well.


Best regards,

Robin

Tara Design, Inc.
www.taratangoshoes.com
Toll Free in US: 1-877-906-8272

18 Stillman St.
So. Portland ME 04106
207-741-2992--

> From: Ed Doyle <doyleed@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 13:49:21 -0700
> To: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
>
> Hi All,
> I have the singularly good fortune of living six months of the year in
> Portland Oregon, and six months of the year in Fort Lauderdale,
> Florida. All the teachers in Portland (and there are many) seem to me
> to spend an equal amount of time in their group lessons on follower
> techniques. Often as a warm up, everyone, leaders and followers spend
> time walking backwards in a giant circle. Although this is primarily
> for the followers, I think I have benefited as a leader too. If
> anyone here gets the chance to take group classes from Oscar Caballero
> and Roxana Garber in North Miami Florida, there is no question that
> they are very very concerned with follower technique - try them and
> see.
> Happy tango-ing.
> Ed
>
> On 7/10/06, Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org> wrote:
>> I'll second what Jay says.
>>
>> Perhaps you are taking classes from the wrong teachers. There are a
>> number of excellent teacher who present material for both the men and
>> the women. Ask around. Try taking from different teachers.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 10, 2006, at 1:39 PM, Jay Rabe wrote:
>>
>>> Your comments are at least historically valid about the
>>> worthlessness of
>>> group classes for followers beyond a certain point. However, that
>>> observation also has been made by many others in addition to
>>> yourself over
>>> the years. As a result, at least here in Portland, there has been a
>>> growing
>>> effort on the part of instructors to include content aimed
>>> specifically at
>>> followers and their technique. In conclusion, I would say that this
>>> evolution in teaching is changing the landscape, and, again at
>>> least in
>>> Portland, it is becoming less and less true that followers cannot
>>> benefit
>>> from group classes even with several years of experience.
>>>
>>> J in Portland
>>> www.TangoMoments.com
>>>
>>> ----Original Message Follows----
>>> From: mallpasso@aol.com
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that after two years of group classes any further group
>>> classes for
>>> women are a waste of their time and money since most of these
>>> classes are
>>> geared towards leaders learning new steps, etc. Instead, women
>>> should focus
>>> on taking privates to work on their technique. Ditto for men, but
>>> after
>>> four years of group classes, so they can also work on their technique.
>>>
>>> My two cents worth.
>>>
>>> El Bandido de Tango
>>
>>

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2006 08:02:40 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Men and classes
To: "Tom Stermitz" <stermitz@tango.org>, <tango-l@mit.edu>

> I'll second what Jay says.
>
> Perhaps you are taking classes from the wrong teachers. There are a
> number of excellent teacher who present material for both the men and
> the women. Ask around. Try taking from different teachers.

I agree. The fact is that a teacher can only teach as much to his students
as he knows about the tango himself, usually a lot less.
And some teachers therefore are only qualified to teach beginners and lower
intermediates.

Astrid

>

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 12:46:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>, Marisa Holmes
<mariholmes@yahoo.com>, tango-l@MIT.EDU

Astrid:
I think it would be good to think of stopping the man with your body as a non-verbal
way to say, "Hey, I want to stay here for a while". I guess I'm getting to be too much
of a dancer to think of it in a sexual way. (darn,?)
And, oh, wouldn't this be a good thing to teach to women in general, rather than only
learning it in a high priced private lesson? If this isn't explained to the men as well, they may think of it as "back leading", rather than as communication.
I personally find it rather sad when women begin to do adornos excessively, dancing
more or less with themselves rather than with their partner. The flip side to the woman
feeling like she is there only so the man can show off his steps is the man feeling as if
he is there so the woman can show off her adornos.
I much prefer the women who know how to use their bodies to communicate their
musicality to me.


astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp> wrote:
> I personally agree with Igor who says. "...

> It is most important - to be happy. More classes
> will not make you happier"

And sometimes, more classes will make you less happy.

That is partly true but it really depends on the kind of classes you take
and WITH WHO(m) !

You can reasonably say
that you have to get the men moving before the women
can do anything at all 窶・瘢雹if the leader stands with a
blank expression and his feet planted, there is no
dance to work with. But the common pattern is to work
with the leaders on the figure or technique under
discussion until they can blunder through it, and then
move on to the next figure, leaving practicing for
time outside of class. So the follower's experience
is one of being dragged, shoved, and put off balance
until the leaders just start to be able to do a figure
(at which point the follower might be able to work on
technique, expression, etc.) and then the class moves
on to the next thing.

I know exactly what you mean, Marisa, even though I have never encountered a
man who just stands there when he is supposed to practise a step. Sometimes,
a man may ask me:"Do you remember what we are supposed to do?" I almost
never remember anything, as Ezequiel trained me systematically to have my
mind go blank, regarding steps and being led. He ideally prefered if women
did not watch, or at least, did not move while he showed a new step in his
group lessons. So, in that case I always call over the teacher and ask
him/her to show the man what to do one more time.
And yes, I hate it too when the teachers simply move on to the next, even
more complicated move on their agenda, when none of the men have really
understood the lead of the former yet. Talk about cheating yourself thru a
class as teacher ! My boss and me, both working at the same educational
institution, would stand in the back and mutter about the self-declared
tango teacher's lack of a pedagogical concept...

And for this, they pay the same
price as the guys on whom the instructor's attention
is being lavished.

Yes ! So true ! We also pay the same when there are almost no men around and
the teachers and assistents lavish all their attention on the wealthy female
students taking the most private lessons, and ignore those who just dance
and learn, in grupos as well as milongas.
I remember, I once said to the man who ran the practica I attended for
years, after plucking me out of the arms of an advanced dancer to give him a
female clueless beginner, and then making me practise with a male clueless
beginner:"I think, instead of me paying you, you should pay me to come here
!" The teacher said:"Hush", flashed me a smile, appeased and cuddled me and
showered me with his irresistible Argentine charm, remembered my words for
two weeks, and then did the same thing to me again... Nevertheless, I loved
him and his warmnth and his hospitality, even if he had me want to pretend
to strangle him in front of his students at times...; )

I have taken classes where the instructor said we were
going to work on techniques for the women. In a
surprisingly large proportion of those classes, old
habits re-surfaced, and the instructor was soon
spending more than half their time on the men.

the classes that I have attended with technique for women were always
organised much like a "secret meeting of conspiring sisters", much like
belly dance classes are. Only the women would meet with the female teacher,
and she would give us all kinds of advice and show us little tricks, that
became our precious little secrets and were never explained to the men. Or
if not that, then at least, like during a group class with our local Juan
Guida and his former teacher, Melina Brufman, Melina took all the women
aside for a while and showed them how to do adornos. Meanwhile, Juan worked
with the men. Or she would get all the "superfluous" women, while he taught
the couples that could be paired up from the number of students, and then
they exchanged the groups of women.
Coppello worked that way too, when he was here. His new partner would work
with the women on technique while they were waiting for their turn to dance
with the men.

And
many of the men chose to either wander around in a
lackluster way 窶・瘢雹or simply to ignore the point of
the exercises.

I think, you were in the wrong class.

The very last regular class I took as
a follower was supposed to be about followers adorning
or otherwise expressing the music. We did exercises
that were well within the limits of the technical
abilities of the dancers present (people who had
danced for 3-6 years); the leaders were asked to do a
number of simple figures and to pause at specific
points and then wait until they understood the
follower was ready to move on. The followers were
invited to see what they felt like doing when they
were guaranteed that the leaders were listening to
them and were not about to cut off the little flourish

And you say, these people had been dancing 3-6 years already????
In my experioence, inserting adornos are not something you can really teach
in class. The teacher will teach a combination that has an adorno in it.
Fine, works, as long as all the students agree on practising the same step.
Or the female teacher will teach firuletes as such to the women, and during
which moves to insert them. But the interactive play of the couple, with the
woman taking her time, and the man giving her time til she finishes, I
think, this is a skill you can only acquire by dancing in practicas and
milongas. Dancing when you don't know what the steps are going to be and
finding your moment. With some men, this is very easy, they are simply the
type who accepts having the woman do her thing and contribute to the dance.
It does not wiork with the "authoritarian" type I described before, who
wants to control the woman at all times. There will never be enough time,
unless you use physical power to slow him down and make him stop and wait
for you. But he will probably resent that and look for someone more "fluffy"
next time. .
(Did you know that some veil wearing Arab women think that Western women are
more violently suppressed than they are? At least they can just take off the
veil and be themselves at certain times...)

He did the requested
figures about a quarter of the time, and filled in the
rest of the time with whatever tough figures he was
trying to work on from his last class. If he paused,
I missed it.

Maybe he was just trying to dance, instead of walking through the same moves
all the time. No?

I whipped my foot forward to sandwich one of
his. He laughed out loud, apparently in delighted
astonishment. He turned to the teacher, still
laughing, and said, "She grabbed my foot!" We all
smiled at one another. And then he said, "How do I
_make_ her do that?"

Men!!!

Gavito was a great one for showing how to stop the man. He told me during a
privada:"The man may not expect this, but if you stop him like this, he
will..." and he drew an invisible zipper across his mouth, looking into my
eyes with a very "significant" look.. As though the man would be so thrilled
with having the woman pressing against and rising against his chest like a
dancing cobra at step #3 (Gavito took the woman's role to show me what he
meant and made me feel it with my body) that he would swallow all his macho
complaints and let himself be seduced by her into stopping to see what other
sexy tricks she had in mind (you go on by doing sexual games on the floor,
expressing your subdued passion and desire with your feet, for lack of
movable hands...) . Unfortunately, I never really got much of a chance to
practise the move he showed me. Maybe I should have learned more about it,
but Gavito's fees for privadas were astronomic, and I could take only 60
minutes. Also, Gavito was short, much smaller in real life than he looked on
stage. It was the time before he announced publicly that he was going to die
soon..

I'm taking classes as a leader now. Why on earth would I pay
every week to be dragged around and ignored?

But why, Marisa, do you keep going to that school of mediocre teachers and
students who don't know how to work with adornos even after 3-6 years?
Once somebody gave me excellent advice when I tried to find a good flamenco
teacher: "Look at his advanced students. If they are looking good, he is a
good teacher. If even the students in the advanced classes look mediocre,
you will never learn much with him. Go find someone else immediately."

I have never thought of taking on leading, in spite of all my exasperation
with teachers, classes, lack of men and the people dancing around me.
Dancing with a woman, or leading a man simply does not give me that High
that I am looking for. Morevover, leading is not usually encouraged much in
women here, unless a woman is asked to "help out" in a very unbalanced class
by becoming an extra man for a while. After all, our teachers are from
Argentina.
If I get all too frustrated with the dancers or the teachers, I simply go
somewhere else for a while. In Tokyo, you can go to one or several places to
dance tango practically every day of the week.

And as for that discussion on whether to take classes or not, in my opinion,
this subject is ridiculous. This is starting to remind me of the fanatic
milonguero fraction putting everyone else down for being inauthentic, and
the "salon" dancers" fighting back by saying, milonguero style people can't
really dance.
Only the completely ignorant would assume that people take EITHER lessons OR
go to milongas, that they EITHER learn OR dance. What nonsense. As though
learning and practising were mutually exclusive. Lessons are not some kind
of lab where you learn grey theory before you venture out into real life.
And milongas are not places for those "privileged" dancers who are
"intelligent" enough *not* to take lessons. Give us all a break, Chris. You
are simply defending the fact that you are not taking any lessons yourself.
So don't ! If you believe in that approach, why don't you just do that,
without asking 1100 people to agree with you, that this is the right way?

Astrid
in her supposedly insufferably direct German self ; )

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 11:28:50 -0500
From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: "steve pastor" <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340607120928y72a1f59tad73a2f8baf4d519@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/6/06, steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I personally find it rather sad when women begin to do adornos excessively, dancing
> more or less with themselves rather than with their partner. The flip side to the woman
> feeling like she is there only so the man can show off his steps is the man feeling as if
> he is there so the woman can show off her adornos.

In social dancing, women's adornos should be an expression from within
rather than a display to the outside. They should be coordinated with
the time and space framework provided by the leader. They should not
disrupt this (e.g., pull him off his axis).

The same is true for for men's steps - they should not disrupt the
balance (space) and momentum (time) of women.

Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience.

Ron

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:43:49 +0100 (BST)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes

For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
Dani

Ron Weigel <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience.

Ron

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:43:32 +0100 (BST)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes

For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
Dani

Ron Weigel <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience.

Ron

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:44:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: tango.society@gmail.com, tango-L@mit.edu

For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
Dani

Ron Weigel <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience.

Ron

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:22:59 -0500
From: "Ron Weigel" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340607121022r39ddf9c7o2a3c873bb444da79@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/12/06, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:

>
> For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
> Dani
>
> Ron Weigel <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience.
>
> Ron

OK, so dancing for the audience is preferred over dancing with your partner?

So I guess it only takes ONE to tango.

The stage is reserved for those who dance for the audience. (By the
way, good stage dancers have good partner connection technique. Good
stage dancers also dance a social style at the milongas.)

Those who prefer to dance with our partners would like to have the
social dance floor available to us. Sometimes we get in the way of the
performers who have descended from the stage onto the social dance
floor. Sorry about that.

Ron

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 19:10:14 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: Ron Weigel <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

In a social dance setting, in principle there IS no audience...! In a performance setting, there IS an audience...! The premise in what you are saying, Ron, is that you don't differentiate between the two. Does this mean you have no concept of one, the other or both? You generalise and bleat "Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience". You must try, Ron, try to understand that there is a difference. You cannot generalise.

I come from a performance background; I mean, before tango. I prefer performing to social dancing... it's as simple as that! However, when I perform in anything (in this example, tango) although there are many considerations to be aware of such as where the audience is, the type of audience, the atmosphere (emotional), and much more... I do 'dance with my partner'. The thing about tango is that, as most people know, the passion between the two dancers is extremely important to convey the message, the story of the relationship... ie the music, the lyric, the connection. Now, this aspect of 'dancing with your partner' is exactly that... another aspect (in tango performance) added to all the other factors aforementioned. It's a necessity to convey the message of the dance. This adds to the beauty of the performance, but it's not the only factor.

*Being able to turn heads IS another factor for me*.

I hasten to add: that's not to say I'm aiming for that in a social setting. I don't pay attention to what's going on in the seats/tables around the dancefloor while I'm dancing. I don't care... unless they interfere with me or my partner!!! I'm aiming to enjoy the dance, the music, the connection between me and my partner; if I happen to turn head, then even better! I'm not necessarily aware of it at the time as I'm concentrating on my partner and me and the music, but it is something I'm told about by people afterwards.

It's altogether so-o-o-o common in many tango societies, the snivelling, snide comments hidden behind hands. "Who does he/she think he/she is!" "That's not tango!" "They don't feel what they're dancing!". I say to these types "Get lost! Live and let live! Mind your own business!".

Y'know, I'm sick of those (noisiest) who continue to put down those of us who enjoy performing as being unworthy of tango... 'that's not what tango is all about'... 'you have to dance for your partner'... 'dance as though no-one is watching'... and all that crap. I must stress though, that these belching platitudes, although indeed worthy of consideration and in some way applicable, are not burnt into stone as being qualities of the 'true tanguero'.

Others like me have been pilloried, panned and made to question our worthiness of tango for enjoying performance tango... I've read these 'digs' for God knows how long! For what reason? Probably because either they can't perform themselves or are crap dancers anyway... who knows? I don't.

So, 'now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party'... ie. those of you who agree with me, please speak up. There are bound to be lots of flaming from the 'holier-than-thou' / 'we-know-best' brigade. Come on, give your self-appointed advocate a helping hand. ;-)

Cheers

Dani


----- Original Message ----

Sent: Wednesday, 12 July, 2006 6:22:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes


On 7/12/06, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:

>
> For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
> Dani
>
> Ron Weigel <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience.
>
> Ron

OK, so dancing for the audience is preferred over dancing with your partner?

So I guess it only takes ONE to tango.

The stage is reserved for those who dance for the audience. (By the
way, good stage dancers have good partner connection technique. Good
stage dancers also dance a social style at the milongas.)

Those who prefer to dance with our partners would like to have the
social dance floor available to us. Sometimes we get in the way of the
performers who have descended from the stage onto the social dance
floor. Sorry about that.

Ron

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 18:12:31 EDT
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu, tango.society@gmail.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu


The brilliance of the Internet is how well a simple statement can be
construed. It is like analyzing a poet, what did the poet mean when he wrote.... 400
years ago. It makes for good points but accuracy can be fleeting.

I say this because I took Ron's statement totally different. I took his
comparison to the intent of the dancer(s) in a social setting. I read his
preference to be the same as you stated here. The key is the partners and what
transpires between them. The peanut gallery be dammed. It is not them you are
dancing for. If you and you partner are enjoying the dance, that is all that
counts. Ron's counterpoint seemed to imply IMO that some leads or partners are
not dancing for themselves, but to "perform" for the people sitting around
watching the dance. These leads or couples are performing to gain the acceptance
or to impress those around them. That is not good.

I did not read his comment as a derogation of performers or their art.
Again that is IMO,

Just some thoughts,

Bill in Seattle

In a message dated 7/12/2006 1:39:35 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu writes:

In a social dance setting, in principle there IS no audience...! In a
performance setting, there IS an audience...! The premise in what you are saying,
Ron, is that you don't differentiate between the two. Does this mean you have
no concept of one, the other or both? You generalize and bleat "Dancing with
your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience". You must try, Ron,
try to understand that there is a difference. You cannot generalize.

I come from a performance background; I mean, before tango. I prefer
performing to social dancing... it's as simple as that! However, when I perform in
anything (in this example, tango) although there are many considerations to be
aware of such as where the audience is, the type of audience, the atmosphere
(emotional), and much more... I do 'dance with my partner'. The thing about
tango is that, as most people know, the passion between the two dancers is
extremely important to convey the message, the story of the relationship...
i.e. the music, the lyric, the connection. Now, this aspect of 'dancing with
your partner' is exactly that... another aspect (in tango performance) added to
all the other factors aforementioned. It's a necessity to convey the message
of the dance. This adds to the beauty of the performance, but it's not the
only factor.

*Being able to turn heads IS another factor for me*.

I hasten to add: that's not to say I'm aiming for that in a social setting.
I don't pay attention to what's going on in the seats/tables around the dance
floor while I'm dancing. I don't care... unless they interfere with me or my
partner!!! I'm aiming to enjoy the dance, the music, the connection between
me and my partner; if I happen to turn head, then even better! I'm not
necessarily aware of it at the time as I'm concentrating on my partner and me and
the music, but it is something I'm told about by people afterwards.

It's altogether so-o-o-o common in many tango societies, the snivelling,
snide comments hidden behind hands. "Who does he/she think he/she is!" "That's
not tango!" "They don't feel what they're dancing!". I say to these types "Get
lost! Live and let live! Mind your own business!".

Y'know, I'm sick of those (noisiest) who continue to put down those of us
who enjoy performing as being unworthy of tango... 'that's not what tango is
all about'... 'you have to dance for your partner'... 'dance as though no-one
is watching'... and all that crap. I must stress though, that these belching
platitudes, although indeed worthy of consideration and in some way
applicable, are not burnt into stone as being qualities of the 'true tanguero'.

Others like me have been pilloried, panned and made to question our
worthiness of tango for enjoying performance tango... I've read these 'digs' for God
knows how long! For what reason? Probably because either they can't perform
themselves or are crap dancers anyway... who knows? I don't.

So, 'now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party'...
ie. those of you who agree with me, please speak up. There are bound to be lots
of flaming from the 'holier-than-thou' / 'we-know-best' brigade. Come on,
give your self-appointed advocate a helping hand. ;-)

Cheers

Dani


----- Original Message ----

Sent: Wednesday, 12 July, 2006 6:22:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes


On 7/12/06, Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu> wrote:

>
> For you, Ron... for you. Please don't speak on my behalf.
> Dani
>
> Ron Weigel <tango.society@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dancing with your partner is preferred over dancing for the audience.
>
> Ron

OK, so dancing for the audience is preferred over dancing with your partner?

So I guess it only takes ONE to tango.

The stage is reserved for those who dance for the audience. (By the
way, good stage dancers have good partner connection technique. Good
stage dancers also dance a social style at the milongas.)

Those who prefer to dance with our partners would like to have the
social dance floor available to us. Sometimes we get in the way of the
performers who have descended from the stage onto the social dance
floor. Sorry about that.

Ron
Tango-L mailing list

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 22:29:06 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: Euroking@aol.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu

No, I appreciate all you've said, Bill, and that's all fair enough.

I think it's just that the one particular statement Ron made at the end of his message made me recall all the animosity I've read in the past against those who like performance tango. Perhaps I overreacted a little, I don't know. However, I have to explain that I start of replying with what's intended to be a short one or two-line response and then it seems I can't stop. One thing leads to another and, before you know it, a whole essay is presented... just like this! :-)

I have to further say, in defence of those who like to 'perform' at social dances, if the floor is virtually empty... why not?! I put apostophes around the word "perform" because, using myself as an example, performing suggests a presentation for an audience... in this case those who are sitting around the dance floor (perhaps fuming with envy???). However, although if I have a very quiet dance-floor with plenty of space and not interfering with others, I still do not perform... I do maintain a feeling for the connection with my partner and enjoy the music, the dance, my partner and the empathy with the lyric - but with 'practicing' techniques I wouldn't normally use in a busy social dance environment. In such a spacious, pretty much empty floor, I *enjoy* my boleos, ganchos, enrosques etc etc etc... I'm not bugging anyone and am experienced enough after 9 years to avoid bumping or kicking people (although there are some I wouldn't mind punching! >:-))))) ).

Cheers

Dani
https://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu



----- Original Message ----

Sent: Wednesday, 12 July, 2006 11:12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes


The brilliance of the Internet is how well a simple statement can be construed. It is like analyzing a poet, what did the poet mean when he wrote.... 400 years ago. It makes for good points but accuracy can be fleeting.

I say this because I took Ron's statement totally different. I took his comparison to the intent of the dancer(s) in a social setting. I read his preference to be the same as you stated here. The key is the partners and what transpires between them. The peanut gallery be dammed. It is not them you are dancing for. If you and you partner are enjoying the dance, that is all that counts. Ron's counterpoint seemed to imply IMO that some leads or partners are not dancing for themselves, but to "perform" for the people sitting around watching the dance. These leads or couples are performing to gain the acceptance or to impress those around them. That is not good.

I did not read his comment as a derogation of performers or their art. Again that is IMO,

Just some thoughts,

Bill in Seattle

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2006 17:20:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women and Classes
To: tango-l@MIT.EDU

--- steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com> wrote:

I personally find it rather sad when women begin to do

> adornos excessively, dancing
> more or less with themselves rather than with their
> partner. The flip side to the woman
> feeling like she is there only so the man can show off
> his steps is the man feeling as if
> he is there so the woman can show off her adornos.

Steve,

Don't sweat it too much. It is usually just a phase - one
that all women go through. Just like the "step phase" is
one just about everyone goes through. For women, it is
quite often her first way of learning how to express
herself. Yes, they can be excessive, but eventually, most
women get over it. But it is important for the woman to
try and express herself. (Just hope she picks a good role
model).

In a private email someone made a nice analogy about
something else that applies here. One can compare a woman
doing ornaments to a teenage girl who is putting on makeup
for the first time. Initially, she may not get it right,
but with time and practice, she will blossom.

Trini de Pittsburgh



PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm