5173 Women dressed as men in tango
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:19:37 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Women dressed as men in tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxJwG9k2oVw&mode=related&search
https://www.deremate.com.ar/accdb/viewitem.asp?idi179056
https://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/gangster.htm
https://www.musicargentina.com/es/cantores/azucena-maizani.html
Tango in its beginnings was created as an amusement, jokingly immitating
moves negroes executed in their candombes.
It was a dance of men. The lyrics represented the masculine world. It was
not proper for a woman to either dance or sing tangos.
So when women were finally included in tango shows, at the beginnings they
were dressed as men.
Above You may see Videos and pictures of Azucena Maizani singing and acting
in theater dressed as a man.
Best regards, Sergio
A place for moms to take a break!
https://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:10:33 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women dressed as men in tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600709131710n1d12a2f9v1ee31be932cfb5fe@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Sergio,
Yes, Azucena Maizani is known for her dressing like that. I feel that
it is a very long stretch to go from a _singer_ stage clothes to
concluding that it must have been an exclusively men's _dance_. Two
very big assumptions are made - that singers accurately represent
dancers, and that stage performers accurately represent social
dancers.
Those were the times (1910s to late 1920s, or 1920s and 1930s in
Azucena's case). Tango musicians that travelled to Europe in the 1910s
and 1920s were encouraged/required to dress in ridiculous fake gaucho
outfits. So what? That's what stage performers did to draw attention
or conform to the fashions or stereotypes of the era. More generally,
developing a stage persona to attract an audience is an art older than
tango.
Exotica was "it", not just in tango. In the world of classical guitar
at the time, for example, guitarist Agust?n Barrios (1885-1944)
developed this character and performed dressed in full Indian tribal
costume. He called himself Agust?n Barrios Mangor?, Chief Nitsuga -
the messenger of the Guarani race, the Paganini of the guitar from the
jungles of Paraguay. Shall we conclude that guitar playing originated
in the jungles of Paraguay?
Numerous tango dancing manuals exist from the 1910-1925 era - most of
it before Azucena ever stepped foot on a stage. They all assume a
man-woman dance.
Separately, men and women danced together all popular social dances of
the times, from as early as the 1820s in Argentina. Newspaper ads or
descriptions of gatherings survive from these times as primary sources
of evidence.
This is the picture I see from looking at research, and it makes me
revisit some of the 'known facts' about tango and its origins. The
question is, will the Tango Gods get angry, or be pleased?
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
On 9/13/07, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxJwG9k2oVw&mode=related&search>
> https://www.deremate.com.ar/accdb/viewitem.asp?idi179056
>
> https://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/gangster.htm
>
> https://www.musicargentina.com/es/cantores/azucena-maizani.html
>
> Tango in its beginnings was created as an amusement, jokingly immitating
> moves negroes executed in their candombes.
>
> It was a dance of men. The lyrics represented the masculine world. It was
> not proper for a woman to either dance or sing tangos.
>
> So when women were finally included in tango shows, at the beginnings they
> were dressed as men.
>
> Above You may see Videos and pictures of Azucena Maizani singing and acting
> in theater dressed as a man.
>
> Best regards, Sergio
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 03:26:24 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Women dressed as men in tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"Yes, Azucena Maizani is known for her dressing like that. I feel that
it is a very long stretch to go from a _singer_ stage clothes to
concluding that it must have been an exclusively men's _dance_. "
Hi Konstantin, yes I agree with you, it is a very long stretch to draw such
a conclusion.
I never did it, I said, that at the very beginning tango was a dance created
by men that for fun ridiculed and mocked the moves Negroes executed in their
Candombes.
Horacio Salas in his book "El Tango" (page 27) says : " Without doubt as it
is said by Ventura Lynch
in "La Provincia de Buenos Aires) 1883. The Milonga as a dance was created
by Compadritos of the dances of Negroes as a mockery . It was danced apart
at the beginning, exactly as it was done in the Candombes, later on it was
transformed into a couple dance with an embrace. Mostly done by men. It
remains in that situation till it is adopted by the bordellos."
"The Magazine 'Caras y Caretas" in 1903 published a series of pictures
showing men dancing in the street. It was done to the music of "Organitos"
that played a few melodies. The poet Evaristo Carriego describes similar
scenes ."
Horacio Salas adds (page 28)" but we do not wish to exaggerate: the dance
was also acceptable as a done by couples of different sex. In 1889, in the
drama "Juan Moreira" at the end in a brothel, one could see mixed couples
dancing a milonga."
In the same page this writer explains that in other theatrical
presentations, men danced among themselves "as it was the general custom."
On page 32, he adds that during carnival ( 1904)
tango was played in most dancing halls and people (both sexes) covered by
costumes danced as they could not be recognized.
On page 80, he describes some dancing halls with a bar serving alcoholic
beverages called "Pirigundines" where men danced and practiced among
themselves. Women were added later on. Men had to pay them in order to be
able to dance with them.
Then he adds that "the place where tango was usually danced and developed as
a musical form and a dance, was in the brothel. In the large patios or
halls of these prostitution houses, as a complement to the main activity the
women (pupilas- pupils) danced with the clients."
In summary this historical facts are well known by anyone that like me was
born and grew up in Buenos Aires.
Another reason Azucena Maizani sang dressed as a man as late as 1936 was
that the lyrics of tangos referred to a male world . The verses had to be
said by a man.
In the Video that I presented she is singing "Milonga del 900"
Me gusta lo desparejo
Y no voy por la vereda;
Uso fungi a lo Massera,
Calzo bota militar.
La quise porque la quise
Y por eso ando penando;
Se me fue ya ni se cuando,
Ni se cuando volvera.
Me la nombran las guitarras
Cuando dicen su cancin,
Las callecitas del barrio
Y el filo de mi facon.
Me la nombran las estrellas
Y el viento del arrabal;
No se pa' que me la nombran
Si no la puedo olvidar.
I am only to translate a few verses:
She is named by the guitars, when they say their song, she is also named by
the little streets of the neigborhood, and the sharpnes of my knife.
She is named by the stars, and the wind of the arrabal (periphery), I do not
know why they name her, since I cannot forget her.....
Summary: I do not draw a conclusion form a video or a picture, I offered
them as examples of historical facts that are generally accepted today and
largely ignored by the foreign public.
I am not willing to discuss this further, this couuld be time consuming. you
are entitled to your own opinion.
Best regards, Sergio
More photos; more messages; more whatever. Windows Live Hotmail - NOW with
5GB storage.
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Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:23:09 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women dressed as men in tango
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600709132323w201dc4bbq970dc2d2d6ebf6da@mail.gmail.com>
On 9/13/07, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> Summary: I do not draw a conclusion form a video or a picture, I offered
> them as examples of historical facts that are generally accepted today and
> largely ignored by the foreign public.
Quite the contrary - the foreign public was fed all the stereotypes,
almost exclusively. It is only in the last ten years or so that a more
systematic research has been done. Your ideas are/were generally
accepted, that is correct - there are a few well-known books written
by the early tango historians (with few references to primary sources)
that get quoted over and over (and that sometimes quote each other).
But we have moved now beyond what they knew or believed in, and we
have the benefit of more systematic research and more years of
knowledge and investigations.
I am certainly not dismissing them since they were correct probably
some 95 percent of the time, but for the remaining 5 percent I am not
willing to blindly take them on faith just because Vega or Gesualdo or
Ferrer or Matamoro or Rossi said something without providing primary
sources, and it got validated by the others referencing him and each
other.
> I am not willing to discuss this further, this couuld be time consuming. you
> are entitled to your own opinion.
It is definitely time consuming which is why I have not posted here in
detail on these subjects.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
>
>
> Best regards, Sergio
>
> More photos; more messages; more whatever. Windows Live Hotmail - NOW with
> 5GB storage.
> https://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_5G_0907
>
>
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 00:57:39 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women dressed as men in tango
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600709140057o1afff61cuebe82f0cefad861d@mail.gmail.com>
On 9/13/07, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> "The Magazine 'Caras y Caretas" in 1903 published a series of pictures
> showing men dancing in the street.
Right, I think this is the same series of five pictures of two men
doing tango poses (BTW there are other pictures of one of the men
dancing with a woman) that I mentioned - the notorious men-on-men
pictures that everyone interpreted. Too bad the 1905 man-woman
pictures were ignored, or earlier descriptions of man-woman dancing.
I feel bad, upon re-reading what I wrote earlier, that I am coming off
too agressive or irritated in this exchange. It wasn't my intent to
get into a fight. I will let you have the last word on this.
Good night,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:52:20 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Women dressed as men in tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"Quite the contrary - the foreign public was fed all the stereotypes,
almost exclusively. It is only in the last ten years or so that a more
systematic research has been done. Your ideas are/were generally
accepted, that is correct - there are a few well-known books written
by the early tango historians (with few references to primary sources)
that get quoted over and over (and that sometimes quote each other).
But we have moved now beyond what they knew or believed in, and we
have the benefit of more systematic research and more years of
knowledge and investigations."
Konstantin I wrote about Tango history in Tango-L and for newspapers and
magazines since the early 1990s.
I invented nothing, what I have said was based in my own experience as I was
growing up in Buenos Aires, in my discussions with tango historians
themselves or with members of my family and friends that had lived the facts
by them explained; also in readings and in the knowledge of Argentine
Culture and history in general.
I wrote under the names; Sergio Suppa, Cachafaz and Sergio Vandekier).
All along these years I run into foreigners (never one Argentine) that
disputed historical facts as generally accepted basing their conviction in
their own deductions and beliefs or in books written by foreigners. They
were mostly Europeans or from Latin America.
Disgusted with this situation I finally decided to quit writing in Tango-L,
in my own stupidity I thought it was interesting to share this little known
fact of tango women dressing as men, big mistake!
I thank you and all the foreigners that did a "systematic research of our
history" never mind the arrogance of believing that we are totally unable of
knowing or investigating our own history.
Here I must concede the fact that tango, having being considered something
"depicable, proper of the lower classes" was neglected as a subject of study
by Argentine intelectuals. Despite of this we could paper the road from here
to the moon with all that has been written about our popular dance and
music.
Summary it is best not to write about the following subjects: Tango History,
Gender roles in tango, Tango Styles. If you do you will get tangled in a
discussion that will never end.
Have a good day, Sergio
A place for moms to take a break!
https://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 11:38:17 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women dressed as men in tango
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600709141138r77afe3e7ga476d551a3e05de7@mail.gmail.com>
OK, I meant a 'last word' on the specific topic. I have to respond to
this more general posting (see below).
On 9/14/07, Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I invented nothing, what I have said was based in my own experience as I was
> growing up in Buenos Aires, in my discussions with tango historians
> themselves or with members of my family and friends that had lived the facts
> by them explained; also in readings and in the knowledge of Argentine
> Culture and history in general.
Please no strawman arguments. I never said or implied you invented
anything - I even pointed out in some cases which specific pieces you
are referring to or provided more details on the evidence you give.
> All along these years I run into foreigners (never one Argentine) that
> disputed historical facts as generally accepted basing their conviction in
> their own deductions and beliefs or in books written by foreigners. They
> were mostly Europeans or from Latin America.
This is so vague (what subjects or claims or facts are we talking
about) or personalized (people _you_ have run into) as to be
unfalsifiable.
There are Argentines whom you've never met that question some of the
most common stereotypes about tango - like the 'born in brothels'
claim. Of the more famous ones Arturo Penon comes to mind (Pugliese's
first bandoneon from 1969 on). I haven't had time to check the bios of
all authors of the peer-reviewed research articles or dissertations
I've looked at to know if any of the Latin-American sounding names are
actually Argentine. Why would that matter though?
>
> Disgusted with this situation I finally decided to quit writing in Tango-L,
> in my own stupidity I thought it was interesting to share this little known
> fact of tango women dressing as men, big mistake!
It is fairly well known that some tango women dressed in manly
clothes. Not just Azucena Maizani, but also Mercedes Simone (at least
on occasion). But this interesting trivia isn't the totality of what
you shared - you brought this up in the context of it being evidence
that tango was a men-only dance/world until possibly the 1920-30s. I
also gave you an alternative explanation (with examples from this and
other branches of musical performance) for this phenomenon, but you
ignore it or at least seem not to be open to the idea that alternative
explanations might exist.
>
> I thank you and all the foreigners that did a "systematic research of our
> history"
I have family in La Plata. Am I in the club now? Or am I a
proxy-foreigner? Or a proxy-Argentine? Am I more credible because of
blood connection?
> never mind the arrogance of believing that we are totally unable of
> knowing or investigating our own history.
Another strawman argument - I have never claimed that you are unable
(never mind 'totally unable') to know or investigate your history -
why would I make such a dumb and idiotic claim? I also never claimed
the scientific research I am referring to was done exclusively by
'foreigners' - I actually do not know the nationality of the authors
and I do not much care as long as their logic and evidence holds up to
scientific scrutiny. The scientific method is not subject-bound or
topic-bound - the same basic concepts apply across all areas of
inquiry.
> Here I must concede the fact that tango, having being considered something
> "depicable, proper of the lower classes" was neglected as a subject of study
> by Argentine intelectuals. Despite of this we could paper the road from here
> to the moon with all that has been written about our popular dance and
> music.
First, I think you are also blurring the lines between opinions and
scientific inquiry. I am more interested in the latter and less
interested in extrapolations exclusively based on the former, though
in a field where so much is oral history we have to take both in
tandem.
Second, a related concept is that when I provide some
counter-arguments to yours, it does not imply that I consider the
opposite claim to have been proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. I
merely hope to show that other possibilities (or shades of gray) must
be allowed for consideration. Science is never about being 100
percent, but we can estimate what is more likely and always keep an
open mind to revise our theories.
Third, systematic scientific research means, among other thing, not to
pick and choose (when equal-weight or equally-(un)certain) what
evidence we should include and what we should ignore. One of the
consequences of that is that theories are always open for revision
when new data are found. Another is that you can have a book written
in 1936 that was systematic in the sense that its theories may have
covered all facts available in 1936. The underlying reason for all
this is that we never have a complete and exhaustive set of
observations about a certain reality or phenomenon, and in cases when
our incomplete set is extremely small, as with tango, great caution
and a tolerance for uncertainty is required when extrapolating from it
to what the reality might have looked like.
Consequently, on this subject I am willing to tolerate a lot of
uncertainty and the possibility that your exact set of specific claims
is the correct one, so long as you can provide convincing arguments
and data and a theory that not only holds up for all your claims in a
coherent and self-consistent manner but also explains away all the
contradicting arguments and data. I do not see the tolerance for
uncertainty in you though, even though you are dealing with a similar
extremely small set of observations.
> Summary it is best not to write about the following subjects: Tango History,
> Gender roles in tango, Tango Styles. If you do you will get tangled in a
> discussion that will never end.
>
> Have a good day, Sergio
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
