5102 Women's role
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 10:58:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi everyone,
I haven't written to this list in a long time and also I apologize if I am taking this out of context or anything but I had to pipe in when I saw this statement from (I believe it was) Dani:
"The man is the predator, the woman is the prey, as has been since time immemorial "
First of all, I am not going to argue that the above statement might be the opinion of some. But I think it's a really narrow minded way of looking at the complexity of the relationship between men and women. And it inspires me to address what I often find to be a misconceived view of the relationship between the leader and follower in tango.
Sometimes I have found that men get on these power trips about leading and neglect to acknowledge the true fact that the follower has an equal amount of influence on the dance and that it is truly a partnership. Even the most machismo men can not deny the powerful role of the follower.
Here are a couple of things to consider about the role of the follower and her power to influence the dance:
1. It is the woman's choice who she dances with. She allows herself to be approached or not, she selects whether or not to catch a man's gaze. I would go so far as to say that most of the time it is really the woman doing the asking with her posture and eye contact and not really the other way around.
2. The follower is in control of the dance. Without someone who has agreed to follow you, there can be no lead. There is nothing "prey"-like about this and it is a completely conscious and active choice on the part of the follower. Without her trust and response your lead means nothing. Also, the way in which she interprets the lead is her choice, so as a leader you have to be aware of and open to the possibilities she presents.
3. The follower has an extremely influential role in the expression of musicality. Her timing, responsiveness, and the manner in which she executes the movements which are lead are all completely her responsibility. Also, the spaces in between what you lead are hers to play with.
The best dances happen when both the leader and follower are striving to make the dance delicious for the other person while confidently expressing their personal uniqueness in a warm and trusting embrace.
Be kind to one another. Don't confuse femininity and masculinity with weak and strong or predator and prey.
-Razorgirl
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:21:37 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Rose wrote: > ... Don't confuse femininity and masculinity with weak and strong or predator and prey.---------------------
Amen. Glad you're still on the list. Your clarity has been missed.
J
TangoMoments.com
Missed the show?? Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN.
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:05:22 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Razorgirl, thank you for bringing up this topic. You are right. I
am back at my computer, so everyone beware! Here I go again! Read
this at your leisure, if you wish, because it might be a long
message. I don't know what it is going to be yet.
Razorgirl, I want to take your point a bit further.
In the non-tango world, the issues of power between men and women are
perceived in a somewhat simplistic way because, however it looks, it
works for most people and they do not want to look any further.
Tango is more intuitive, more sensitive and more demanding in that
realm, whether you want it or not.
At the very first encounter, which may last a few months, a person's
simple power emerges as an issue and stands in front of the person
for consideration. Am I good enough? Will he/she dance with
me? Can I do this? Can I invite? Will he/she like me? I am afraid.
Tango is a mirror of all of the insecurities a person may
have. When a person, any person, begins to dance tango, Tango puts
a mirror in front of them and says "Look! These are your
insecurities. What do you want to do about them? If you do nothing,
you will be hurt and disappointed and you will not dance."
So people do. Everyone. Often unconsciously because they want the
transformation that tango offers them. This is my point that
transcends cultures. Argentine people go through this process as
well. It is a process of Tango.
A much deeper level of transformation actually allows the true
masculine and feminine power to emerge. Once a person begins to
overcome their insecurities, it begins to show not only in tango, but
in the rest of their life. In a way, struggling and loving tango
helps people to become who they truly are and who they were meant to
be. I don't want to talk about this right now. It is a fascinating
and exciting topic for me and it brings many concepts that I use when
I share tango with others by teaching. But this is about the power
and so I want to stay with this focus.
The masculine and feminine power in tango do not compete with each
other. They do not take away from each other. Instead, the feminine
can only be powerful if the masculine is powerful and the masculine
cannot be powerful if the feminine is not powerful.
In the ancient world, the feminine was presented as the true power of
the Universe. For those who have not had much learning about this,
The DaVinci Code is a great presentation of that, both the book and the movie.
But both men and women have both the masculine and the
feminine. That means that the power of the Universe is in both, not
just in the women.
I am speaking a somewhat Jungian language here because it is more
congruent with the Western thought.
So in tango, the woman is not powerful if the man is not, and the
man's power is trapped, if the woman he dances with is weak in her
power. That is why the follower's technique classes are very
useful. Women learn to connect with their bodies in the movement of
tango and bring forward their powerful feminine essence.
When men feel, and I mean FEEL (because I know that you, gentlemen,
like to talk about thinking, but live, navigate and negotiate by
feeling that you do not talk about because it is a natural way of
being for you) that the woman is not competing with them for THEIR
power, they emerge powerful and free.
So, this was my point about the embrace. When a man feels his power
and embraces a woman in tango (or in life) from that power, it is
pure, non-negotiable and fearless. It can never be sleazy or
insecure because sleazy means a block of a man's power and fear.
For that, ladies, you have a huge power. If you accept an invitation
to dance from your feminine power, gorgeous and secure, which every
one of you has (it might be hidden, but it is there), the man, any
man, even a rank beginner, has no choice but to show up in his best
masculine power. And men will be very grateful to you. Not
mentally, and often not consciously, but in feeling.
This is what Argentines practice subconsciously in life and in
tango. Consciously it is men, women and the
relationships. Subconsciously, it is the integrity of the feminine
of masculine energy and power.
In the US, the feminist movement was much needed. It was about
resources and change of the social structure, and many things of this
delicate balance between the masculine and feminine had to be
sacrificed. There was no other choice, even if there was another awareness.
But the feminine and masculine power is so incredibly strong that it
will emerge. If any of you are interested, read Carl Jung's works on
anima and animus. He observed that men and women tend to live in
masculine or feminine energy for the first half or a third of their
lives. And women could live in the masculine and men in the
feminine. But then, around the age of 35 and later, a transformation
begins to occur which is inevitable for everyone. Anima and Animus
want to be together, so the imbalances begin to be renegotiated and a
person usually embarks on a life-changing journey. That is why many
men and women change careers, leave multi-decade long marriages or
suddenly get married, suddenly decide to have children after clearly
never wanting to in their younger years, etc.
Tango is an amazing place when transformations occur. For Argentine
people who had danced for decades, tango accompanied their life and
transformations. Outside of Argentina, people come to tango
differently, and so tango may be that much more powerful for them.
But the feminine and the masculine MUST be together in the dance.
On another note, men being the predators and women the prey is
simplistic. Women want to be pursued and ultimately caught, but the
manner in which this happens makes or breaks the deal. Women want to
be hunted, if you wish, but "just so". So if the hunter is to be
successful, he will develop his skills in a way that his conquest
will be successful. Pure force does not work. That is what
seduction is all about - everywhere - in tango and in life.
And the tango embrace is between the masculine and the
feminine. When the woman is in her feminine and the man is embracing
her from his feminine energy, it usually does not feel good for the
woman. When a woman embraces the man from her masculine power, it
usually does not feel good for the man. If people do not take care
of the embrace, they are missing an opportunity to seduce his/her
partner into a tango that they may remember for the rest of their lives.
Warmest regards to everyone,
Nina
At 11:58 AM 7/25/2007, Razor Girl wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>
>I haven't written to this list in a long time and also I apologize
>if I am taking this out of context or anything but I had to pipe in
>when I saw this statement from (I believe it was) Dani:
>
>"The man is the predator, the woman is the prey, as has been since
>time immemorial "
>
>First of all, I am not going to argue that the above statement might
>be the opinion of some. But I think it's a really narrow minded way
>of looking at the complexity of the relationship between men and
>women. And it inspires me to address what I often find to be a
>misconceived view of the relationship between the leader and follower in tango.
>
>Sometimes I have found that men get on these power trips about
>leading and neglect to acknowledge the true fact that the follower
>has an equal amount of influence on the dance and that it is truly a
>partnership. Even the most machismo men can not deny the powerful
>role of the follower.
>
>Here are a couple of things to consider about the role of the
>follower and her power to influence the dance:
>
>1. It is the woman's choice who she dances with. She allows herself
>to be approached or not, she selects whether or not to catch a man's
>gaze. I would go so far as to say that most of the time it is
>really the woman doing the asking with her posture and eye contact
>and not really the other way around.
>
>2. The follower is in control of the dance. Without someone who has
>agreed to follow you, there can be no lead. There is nothing
>"prey"-like about this and it is a completely conscious and active
>choice on the part of the follower. Without her trust and response
>your lead means nothing. Also, the way in which she interprets the
>lead is her choice, so as a leader you have to be aware of and open
>to the possibilities she presents.
>
>3. The follower has an extremely influential role in the expression
>of musicality. Her timing, responsiveness, and the manner in which
>she executes the movements which are lead are all completely her
>responsibility. Also, the spaces in between what you lead are hers
>to play with.
>
>The best dances happen when both the leader and follower are
>striving to make the dance delicious for the other person while
>confidently expressing their personal uniqueness in a warm and
>trusting embrace.
>
>Be kind to one another. Don't confuse femininity and masculinity
>with weak and strong or predator and prey.
>
>-Razorgirl
>
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 12:58:40 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
"The feminine can only be powerful if the masculine is powerful and the
masculine cannot be powerful if the feminine is not powerful. ...
So in tango, the woman is not powerful if the man is not, and the man's
power is trapped, if the woman he dances with is weak in her power."
How well said, Nina !!!
And if a woman and a man are powerful, in the dance they enjoy their power !
They multiply their abilities feeling and feeding on each other.
Igor Polk
PS,
Nina also said: "For that, ladies, you have a huge power. If you accept an
invitation to dance from your feminine power, gorgeous and secure, which
every one of you has (it might be hidden, but it is there), the man, any
man, even a rank beginner, has no choice but to show up in his best
masculine power. And men will be very grateful to you."
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:56:22 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role [Feminism]
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Nina touched on Feminism, the movement in the US of re-balancing the gender power structure. I agree with her, that there's no question that it was "much needed." However, like pendulums tend to do, IMO the pendulum of gender relationships, with the impulse of Feminism, has swung back past center in some situations. I'm sure I'm not the only tango instructor who has seen cases of a couple coming to learn tango, with a strong and powerful woman, exerting her power and control over the relationship, and a sensitive and caring man, giving in to his woman, letting her have the power she (or her mother) had been denied, effectively letting her "lead" their relationship. Couples like this often drop out of tango almost immediately when they realize that this dance requires a complete transformation of their attitudes and concepts of gender/self, at least in order to dance tango, but fearfully perhaps extending to their partner and other relationships as well.
Conversely, I have seen couples embrace the opportunity that tango presents, and courageously undergo the long and difficult process of nothing less than personal and relationship transformation. As Nina said, "In a way, struggling and loving tango helps people to become who they truly are and who they were meant to be."-----------------
Regarding the masculine/feminine polarity required by tango, I have several paragraphs on my website at:
https://tangomoments.com/ATango.htm
Click on "What's so great about it," then "Gender Relationship"
J
TangoMoments.com
PC Magazine?s 2007 editors? choice for best web mail?award-winning Windows Live Hotmail.
https://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HMWL_mini_pcmag_0707
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:09:36 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hey list,
While I did enjoy reading much of what was in Nina's post, I want to
address the thread-starter here, because I think it's a case of a
pendulum "swinging past center"-- or in other words, overcorrection.
Razor Girl wrote:
> I would go so far as to say that most of the time it is really the woman doing the asking with her posture and eye contact and not really the other way around.
>
Agreed. I sometimes see women sulking or looking stony/bored/whatever,
and it hardly encourages me to invite them to dance. A foul or
indifferent mood is not exactly attractive, and when I see it, I keep my
distance-- that being perhaps the intended result anyway.
> 2. The follower is in control of the dance. [...] Also, the way in which she interprets the lead is her choice, so as a leader you have to be aware of and open to the possibilities she presents.
>
I've read other statements to this effect recently, and I have to disagree.
If a woman is going to "interpret" my lead with too wide a berth, I
can't enjoy the dance. Moreover, she's liable to miss half the
expressive content of that lead, and that's not quite what I consider
her "agreement" to follow me.
Ultimately, WE dance, if things work. If she starts getting airs about
freedom, which conflict with cooperation, the dance doesn't work. Her
only choice (and mine) should be to dance with each other, not despite
each other. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the dance isn't about
freedom at all... rather, it's about liberation from the need (or
desire) for it.
It's my opinion that to introduce notions of political/civic equality
(or otherwise) in the embrace-- where they really don't belong-- is to
miss the whole point of tango.
> 3. The follower has an extremely influential role in the expression of musicality. Her timing, responsiveness, and the manner in which she executes the movements which are lead are all completely her responsibility.
Yes, but let them not become her irresponsibility.
> Also, the spaces in between what you lead are hers to play with.
>
Those spaces are in some cases called "cortinas."
A man who can lead (and listen to) his partner with continual attention
doesn't deserve "interpretive departures" as payment for his care. If
he's really with her, he'll sense that the dance needs a pause (or what
have you) at the same time she does, if not before. And if they're both
following the music's "lead" in the same way, it's rather a moot point.
> The best dances happen when both the leader and follower are striving to make the dance delicious for the other person while confidently expressing their personal uniqueness in a warm and trusting embrace.
Exactly. Except that you (ideally) leave behind your separate self when
you enter the embrace. Each embrace has its own chemistry, and is its
own creation: we become something different with every partner, even if
the differences are slight. If you bring luggage along, with your name
in big letters on it, the whole thing sinks.
These are perhaps illusions or ideals, but we cannot dance well without
them.
Jake
DC
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:31:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
Brilliant!
Nothing cripples me more on the dance floor than a woman
who needs me to take care of her.
Perhaps the only thing worse is the man who wants to "take
care" of the woman. He needs a dependent woman. He is too
weak to face the Goddess.
Sean
--- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
The masculine and feminine power in tango do not compete
with each other. They do not take away from each other.
Instead, the feminine can only be powerful if the masculine
is powerful and the masculine cannot be powerful if the
feminine is not powerful.
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:54:37 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: "Nina Pesochinsky" <nina@earthnet.net>, "Tango-L"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:05:22 -0600, "Nina Pesochinsky"
<nina@earthnet.net> said:
> On another note, men being the predators and women the prey is
> simplistic. Women want to be pursued and ultimately caught, but the
> manner in which this happens makes or breaks the deal. Women want to
> be hunted, if you wish, but "just so". So if the hunter is to be
> successful, he will develop his skills in a way that his conquest
> will be successful. Pure force does not work. That is what
> seduction is all about - everywhere - in tango and in life.
There's a young woman in our tango community with tatoos in the shape
of the sound holes in a violin high up on her back between the level
of her navel and her solar plexus. Not the usual stereotype at all.
I find the symbolism fascinating. I'm resisting the impulse to slip
into pedant mode and analyse it from the view of chakras and higher
vibrations and musical instruments and all, but I will say that I
find myself automatically wanting to dance with the utmost finesse
I possess when I work with her in class.
It's as if she's saying, "OK, I'm here to be played, but you better
do it with the seriousness and skill I deserve".
Christopher
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:47:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: tango-l@Mit.edu
ceverett@ceverett.com (Christopher) writes:
>
> There's a young woman in our tango community with tatoos in the shape
> of the sound holes in a violin high up on her back between the level
> of her navel and her solar plexus. Not the usual stereotype at all.
>
> I find the symbolism fascinating.
Being somewhat of a violinist myself, I must say
I am equally intrigued.
> I'm resisting the impulse to slip into pedant mode and analyse it from
> the view of chakras and higher vibrations and musical instruments and all,
Oh really? Were I in your place, I imagine I'd
more be struggling to resist the impulse to play a little
pizzicato on her G-string.
Huck, sorry folks, you get a belt-high softball like that,
you gotta smack it over the fence
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:55:42 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
This is really great Razor girl.
Thought I would toss something out and see if it flies and compliments what
you wrote.
This is really simple folks.
When you dance with another, regardless if it is Man or Woman/ Lead or
Follow/ Predator or Prey/ Weak or Strong/ Masculine or Feminine/ someone
with a nice hair style or a shaved head.
The dance of tango has the potential to manifest all these things that have
been mentioned and a whole lot more.
It does not mean it is going to.
This folks, can make the dance really hot.
David
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 11:59 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] Women's role
Hi everyone,
I haven't written to this list in a long time and also I apologize if I am
taking this out of context or anything but I had to pipe in when I saw this
statement from (I believe it was) Dani:
"The man is the predator, the woman is the prey, as has been since time
immemorial "
First of all, I am not going to argue that the above statement might be the
opinion of some. But I think it's a really narrow minded way of looking at
the complexity of the relationship between men and women. And it inspires
me to address what I often find to be a misconceived view of the
relationship between the leader and follower in tango.
Sometimes I have found that men get on these power trips about leading and
neglect to acknowledge the true fact that the follower has an equal amount
of influence on the dance and that it is truly a partnership. Even the most
machismo men can not deny the powerful role of the follower.
Here are a couple of things to consider about the role of the follower and
her power to influence the dance:
1. It is the woman's choice who she dances with. She allows herself to be
approached or not, she selects whether or not to catch a man's gaze. I
would go so far as to say that most of the time it is really the woman doing
the asking with her posture and eye contact and not really the other way
around.
2. The follower is in control of the dance. Without someone who has agreed
to follow you, there can be no lead. There is nothing "prey"-like about
this and it is a completely conscious and active choice on the part of the
follower. Without her trust and response your lead means nothing. Also,
the way in which she interprets the lead is her choice, so as a leader you
have to be aware of and open to the possibilities she presents.
3. The follower has an extremely influential role in the expression of
musicality. Her timing, responsiveness, and the manner in which she
executes the movements which are lead are all completely her responsibility.
Also, the spaces in between what you lead are hers to play with.
The best dances happen when both the leader and follower are striving to
make the dance delicious for the other person while confidently expressing
their personal uniqueness in a warm and trusting embrace.
Be kind to one another. Don't confuse femininity and masculinity with weak
and strong or predator and prey.
-Razorgirl
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:54:22 -0400
From: "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Best thread in many moons!
Usually we see the comments on the great leading ability of Argentine men,
which is generally attributed to either being immersed in the music for
many years and/or being products of the Latin machismo culture. But
considering this discussion, could it also be the impact of years dancing
with Argentine women?
In my view, the characteristics described here about good tangueras (i.e.,
awareness of their considerable feminine power, understanding their role in
the embrace and dance), are generally embodied by Argentine women. (In my
experience, anyone who considers them weak or as prey would do so at
considerable risk!).
There is often discussion of the impact that a leader has on the follower.
How much can it work the other way around? Would it be surprising for a
leader who has the opportunity to dance regularly with the kind of great
followers described here to be a better leader for it?
WBSmith
mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on Microsoft?
Exchange - https://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:01:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: tango-l@mit.edu
A well-known American teacher/dancer told us an interesting
story about the first time he learned tango, which was with
Argentine women (his stepfather is Argentine). He tried to
take his first step, and the Argentine woman he was with
didn't budge. He felt that it was if she was saying to him
"Boy, if you are going to learn this dance, you're gonna'
do it right." That memory still influences him today.
So WB, your assessment is probably right. Add to that that
these men (with Italian influences) were probably trying to
please their mothers first!
More comments are made/heard about the good leaders' role
in part because women like to make men feel powerful and
assured. So women keep their wiles to themselves.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net> wrote:
> Best thread in many moons!
>
> Usually we see the comments on the great leading ability
> of Argentine men,
> which is generally attributed to either being immersed in
> the music for
> many years and/or being products of the Latin machismo
> culture. But
> considering this discussion, could it also be the impact
> of years dancing
> with Argentine women?
> In my view, the characteristics described here about good
> tangueras (i.e.,
> awareness of their considerable feminine power,
> understanding their role in
> the embrace and dance), are generally embodied by
> Argentine women. (In my
> experience, anyone who considers them weak or as prey
> would do so at
> considerable risk!).
>
> There is often discussion of the impact that a leader has
> on the follower.
> How much can it work the other way around? Would it be
> surprising for a
> leader who has the opportunity to dance regularly with
> the kind of great
> followers described here to be a better leader for it?
>
> WBSmith
>
>
> mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual
> based on Microsoft?
> Exchange -
> https://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail
>
>
>
>
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:14:31 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Rather than relying on references to the superiority of ethnicities and
other stereotypes in discussing the building of one's dance prowess:
The best method I have seen to teach women to follow (any dance), is to
simply ask them to close their eyes in partner work.
A. The lead and the move itself has to be mechanically and rhythmically
correct for them to know what is being asked. This quickly flushes out
any balance and axis problems.
B. They won't be able to anticipate.
An 'eye opener' for the man who is used to back leading, as well. A
win-win technique.
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> A well-known American teacher/dancer told us an interesting
> story about the first time he learned tango, which was with
> Argentine women (his stepfather is Argentine). He tried to
> take his first step, and the Argentine woman he was with
> didn't budge. He felt that it was if she was saying to him
> "Boy, if you are going to learn this dance, you're gonna'
> do it right." That memory still influences him today.
>
> So WB, your assessment is probably right. Add to that that
> these men (with Italian influences) were probably trying to
> please their mothers first!
>
> More comments are made/heard about the good leaders' role
> in part because women like to make men feel powerful and
> assured. So women keep their wiles to themselves.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
> --- "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> Best thread in many moons!
>>
>> Usually we see the comments on the great leading ability
>> of Argentine men,
>> which is generally attributed to either being immersed in
>> the music for
>> many years and/or being products of the Latin machismo
>> culture. But
>> considering this discussion, could it also be the impact
>> of years dancing
>> with Argentine women?
>> In my view, the characteristics described here about good
>> tangueras (i.e.,
>> awareness of their considerable feminine power,
>> understanding their role in
>> the embrace and dance), are generally embodied by
>> Argentine women. (In my
>> experience, anyone who considers them weak or as prey
>> would do so at
>> considerable risk!).
>>
>> There is often discussion of the impact that a leader has
>> on the follower.
>> How much can it work the other way around? Would it be
>> surprising for a
>> leader who has the opportunity to dance regularly with
>> the kind of great
>> followers described here to be a better leader for it?
>>
>> WBSmith
>>
>>
>> mail2web.com ? Enhanced email for the mobile individual
>> based on Microsoft?
>> Exchange -
>> https://link.mail2web.com/Personal/EnhancedEmail
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
"legal solutions for 21st century businesses"
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:55:36 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: tangosmith@cox.net, "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:54:22 -0400, "tangosmith@cox.net"
<tangosmith@cox.net> said:
> Best thread in many moons!
>
> Usually we see the comments on the great leading ability of Argentine
> men,
> which is generally attributed to either being immersed in the music for
> many years and/or being products of the Latin machismo culture. But
> considering this discussion, could it also be the impact of years dancing
> with Argentine women?
> In my view, the characteristics described here about good tangueras
> (i.e., awareness of their considerable feminine power, understanding
> their role in the embrace and dance), are generally embodied by
> Argentine women. (In my experience, anyone who considers them weak
> or as prey would do so at considerable risk!).
It's taken me about 6 months to understand why my teacher Florencia
felt so heavy and reluctant to move at milongas. She wanted me to
lead her onto her heel at the conclusion of every step, before
going on. To do that, I have to get my center all the way out over
the ball of my foot. Otherwise her core is extended towards me,
but she's being let to step backwards in opposition to that. And
she's so honest in her dance she does what she's being led to do
in that situation, instead of cheating to accommodate me.
I used to mistake that heaviness (some call it compression) for a
sense of connection. For beginner men, that heaviness does lend
some confidence, but but at some point a guy has to move beyond
that, or he remains trapped in the beginner phase, never learning
the body control followers who are lighter on their feet demand,
and with his center always behind his metatarsals.
> There is often discussion of the impact that a leader has on the
> follower. How much can it work the other way around? Would it be
> surprising for a leader who has the opportunity to dance regularly
> with the kind of great followers described here to be a better
> leader for it?
Oh absolutely. Great followers are those that I find myself doing
things I didn't know I could do with.
Christopher
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:12:55 -0400
From: "tangosmith@cox.net" <tangosmith@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Carol,
Yes, the method you cited is used often for technique and I agree it can be
helpful. But what I've found most interesting about this thread (thanks
Razorgirl, Nina, et.al.) is that it focuses on roles, not technique.
There is usually a tendency to discuss techniques ad nauseam here. It is
much easier to teach/learn techniques than roles.
On the importance of roles, Jake, who is very often capable of expounding
on technique far beyond the limit of my attention span, made one of his
usual astute observations when he said: These are perhaps illusions or
ideals, but we cannot dance well without them.
W. B. Smith
-----------------
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:14:31 -0400
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
Rather than relying on references to the superiority of ethnicities and
other stereotypes in discussing the building of one's dance prowess:
The best method I have seen to teach women to follow (any dance), is to
simply ask them to close their eyes in partner work.
A. The lead and the move itself has to be mechanically and rhythmically
correct for them to know what is being asked. This quickly flushes out
any balance and axis problems.
B. They won't be able to anticipate.
An 'eye opener' for the man who is used to back leading, as well. A
win-win technique.
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
https://link.mail2web.com/mail2web
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:09:35 -0700
From: flame@2xtreme.net
Subject: [Tango-L] Razor Girl on Women's role
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Razor girl,
You are sharp! Thanks for your insightful thoughts about the
role of the follower and her power to influence
the dance. Clear, succinct and without the selfaggrandizing
tone so often found in postings here. I really enjoyed reading it.
Flame
> Subject: [Tango-L] Women's role
Watch TaiChiDancers YouTube videos:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=1dFKKw9V5zc
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ydMv17AsMJo
and more...
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:16:54 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
It is a good effect Razorgirl made here..
The message is good but it is not deep enough.
The question is "How?"
Also I'd like to ask Razorgirl about this contradiction:
In 2 you said:
".. way in which she interprets the lead is her choice, so as a leader you
have to be aware of and open to the possibilities she presents."
In 3 you said:
".. the spaces in between what you lead are hers to play with."
Can you see the contradiction?
I am a little skeptical since I have problems with those girls who
"interpret the lead the way they want" in the way which means "They are not
able to interpret the lead correctly" == Ocho Machine. The first sign of
these under-taught ladies - they are unstoppable.
I do not want people to mistake a mastery of free improvisation dance for
inability to dance with a partner
I want to believe the Razorgirl message is the first, but it is incomplete,
so the beginners might think that they are free to do what they want (
including bad things ).
What I'd like to say is
(A) She is never free to interpret the lead. Her interpretation of lead
should either support it, develop it further, or contradict it to play with.
In other words - "Communicating". Then it becomes fluent and pleasant dance,
sometime more - a masterpiece.
( Of course, if there is lead, Gentlemen! Good, gentle, energetic, definite,
precise. Not unclear, grabbing, breaking, sluggish, ripping, cold. But I do
not even want to think about it right now. I am very angry at men. )
Yeah, beginner ladies. Try to interpret the lead "free". You risk to get
left without partners.
There are some ladies who are magical dancers right out of the box without
any classes. But they never interpret the lead free. They do what I've just
mentioned above in (A).
Igor Polk
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:28:12 -0700
From: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<183484970707261828n30af08d3x5cf14872c5991eff@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Igor,
Not that Razorgirl needs any defense, but I can assure you she is NOT a
beginner, NOT an ocho machine, NOT distracting in her interpretation of the
lead, and if you ever get a chance to dance with her, I think you will be
very pleasantly satisfied with her following.
On another note, Razorgirl has not posted much lately, not sure why, but in
the past, she has shared some very insightful and helpful observations with
everyone on tango-l. I think she has a gift for writing and clear thinking.
Let's hope she continues to post her thoughts.
regards
Ed
On 7/26/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
> It is a good effect Razorgirl made here..
>
> The message is good but it is not deep enough.
> The question is "How?"
>
> Also I'd like to ask Razorgirl about this contradiction:
>
> In 2 you said:
>
> ".. way in which she interprets the lead is her choice, so as a leader you
> have to be aware of and open to the possibilities she presents."
>
> In 3 you said:
>
> ".. the spaces in between what you lead are hers to play with."
>
> Can you see the contradiction?
>
>
>
> I am a little skeptical since I have problems with those girls who
> "interpret the lead the way they want" in the way which means "They are
> not
> able to interpret the lead correctly" == Ocho Machine. The first sign of
> these under-taught ladies - they are unstoppable.
>
> I do not want people to mistake a mastery of free improvisation dance for
> inability to dance with a partner
> I want to believe the Razorgirl message is the first, but it is
> incomplete,
> so the beginners might think that they are free to do what they want (
> including bad things ).
>
> What I'd like to say is
>
> (A) She is never free to interpret the lead. Her interpretation of lead
> should either support it, develop it further, or contradict it to play
> with.
> In other words - "Communicating". Then it becomes fluent and pleasant
> dance,
> sometime more - a masterpiece.
>
> ( Of course, if there is lead, Gentlemen! Good, gentle, energetic,
> definite,
> precise. Not unclear, grabbing, breaking, sluggish, ripping, cold. But I
> do
> not even want to think about it right now. I am very angry at men. )
>
> Yeah, beginner ladies. Try to interpret the lead "free". You risk to get
> left without partners.
>
> There are some ladies who are magical dancers right out of the box without
> any classes. But they never interpret the lead free. They do what I've
> just
> mentioned above in (A).
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 18:43:23 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: "'Ed Doyle'" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Ed,
I never was in any doubt that she is a good dancer and has many friends. It
shows.
I hope I will get a chance to dance with her..
So, what would you say about what I said: "A lady is never free to interpret
the lead" following with my explanation?
BTW, I am not against distracting of the lead in ladies interpretation of
the lead. Consider it as a puzzle.
Igor.
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 02:08:01 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
I think one of the problems with this thread is the lack of specifics about what we mean by "interpret the lead." I think the "ocho machine" is an extreme that completely misses the point.
Since the act of leading is a communication, then in one sense, the follower MUST "interpret" it. She must respond, and as automatic and without-thought as that process is in good followers, there still is a level of "interpretation." Her body must "know" or figure out, ie interpret, what the leader wants, and respond accordingly.
Any experienced leader can tell you that a given lead for a particular step will elicit slightly different responses in even a group of excellent followers. So how much and what kind of "interpretation" is acceptable?
So here's a situation. Two women. One with a personality (at least in the moment) that is a little slow, perhaps she had a tiring day. The other that is spikey and high energy, perhaps she just finished a double espresso. Each of them will respond, ie. interpret, the same lead entirely differently. That has to be acceptable.
So now maybe one of them is into you as a leader/person, and the other is not. The first might feel like and choose to respond quickly to your lead, "let's get this over with." The second might feel more inclined to lag a bit, to draw out the feeling of the moment. Is this not OK too? She is communicating with you. And since everyone always says that tango is a conversation (which sort of requires that it's two-way), HOW ELSE would she be able to speak her mind/heart and hold up her side of the conversation, if not by such slight "interpretations?"
J
TangoMoments.com
Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! Find it!
https://maps.live.com/?wipi&FORM=MGAC01
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 22:31:21 -0400
From: "Kathryn Johns" <tangoartist@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: Ed Doyle <doyleed@gmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
<370d16c10707261931u37d4e253s49e4954154521cce@mail.gmail.com>
Does anyone realize or acknowledge how"undertaught"followers
tend to be? How would a lady with a great desire,and perhaps latent
ability,
to do the things you so beautifully describe and be the follower who can
have
fun herself and play with you leaders without spending oodles of time and
money to travel to the few places advertising that followers are catered to
and given ways,means and permission to be something more than a pawn in
the game?
If all that is available for instruction are males(yes,from Argentina
too!),the
attention is generally on the leader. Some otherwise good instructors either
forget (?!)or don't know how to guide followers except to repeat ad nauseum
"keep your energy up"! And to make matters more difficult,disdain to dance
in
practica or milonga with less experienced followers unless they are young
and/or pretty,then it doesn't matter if they can dance or walk and chew gum
at the same time.
After the initial learning curve of giving up control,there is little to get
excited
about except the eternal hope of arriving someday to some cherished place
that you've seen in a movie or heard about from someone who has been there,
or if you still believe the fairy tale that tango is all about the
woman...with respect
and to make her look her best.
You have to dance with(and learn from) a lot of frogs.
Maybe I am mad at men too.....but more with the system that accepts this.
Kathryn
On 7/26/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
> Ed,
>
> I never was in any doubt that she is a good dancer and has many friends.
> It
> shows.
>
> I hope I will get a chance to dance with her..
>
>
>
> So, what would you say about what I said: "A lady is never free to
> interpret
> the lead" following with my explanation?
>
>
>
> BTW, I am not against distracting of the lead in ladies interpretation of
> the lead. Consider it as a puzzle.
>
>
>
> Igor.
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:37:08 +0200
From: "Christian L?then" <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Razor Girl on Women's role
To: tango-l@mit.edu
@Flame:
If you would have danced with razorgirl as a leader you'd know that she not only writing down these things - she's actually dancing like that!
@razorgirl:
C'ya in october!
Christian
> Razor girl,
> You are sharp! Thanks for your insightful thoughts about the
> role of the follower and her power to influence
> the dance. Clear, succinct and without the selfaggrandizing
> tone so often found in postings here. I really enjoyed reading it.
> Flame
--
GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS.
Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: https://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 01:46:23 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: "'Kathryn Johns'" <tangoartist@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Thank you Kathryn!
Yes, most of them are "undertaught".
To do all the things Razor Girl described, with the few exceptions which are
exceptional ( and usually having a great deal of experience in other
dances, ballet, or ice skating ), it requires tremendous amount of
dedication to training. She should be able to do things way beyond simple
following and elementary technique, which are a must anyway.
It was discussed here before: too many women learned basics, then picked up
something from average ( it means mediocre ) leaders stopped learning
anything. While for the truly advanced dance they need to learn a lot. It
is difficult for them to advance. They are in this position because they are
followers - it means they are at the mercy of men they are dancing and
practicing with. While a man can choose what to do, what to practice, women
usually can not do much ( remember, she is not on the level we consider to
be high ). Some of them can not even imagine what is there - on high level.
Men can. Some of them dance with genius ladies occasionally. They know what
it is about.
Now, here is a question: Who is the best teacher to train women to be
advanced?
The one dancing with whom a lady shows much higher level than usual. The one
who is able to dance her beyond her imagination.
Igor Polk.
From: Kathryn Johns [mailto:tangoartist@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 19:31
To: Igor Polk
Cc: Ed Doyle; tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
Does anyone realize or acknowledge how"undertaught"followers
tend to be? How would a lady with a great desire,and perhaps latent ability,
to do the things you so beautifully describe and be the follower who can
have
fun herself and play with you leaders without spending oodles of time and
money to travel to the few places advertising that followers are catered to
and given ways,means and permission to be something more than a pawn in
the game?
If all that is available for instruction are males(yes,from Argentina
too!),the
attention is generally on the leader. Some otherwise good instructors either
forget (?!)or don't know how to guide followers except to repeat ad nauseum
"keep your energy up"! And to make matters more difficult,disdain to dance
in
practica or milonga with less experienced followers unless they are young
and/or pretty,then it doesn't matter if they can dance or walk and chew gum
at the same time.
After the initial learning curve of giving up control,there is little to get
excited
about except the eternal hope of arriving someday to some cherished place
that you've seen in a movie or heard about from someone who has been there,
or if you still believe the fairy tale that tango is all about the
woman...with respect
and to make her look her best.
You have to dance with(and learn from) a lot of frogs.
Maybe I am mad at men too.....but more with the system that accepts this.
Kathryn
On 7/26/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
Ed,
I never was in any doubt that she is a good dancer and has many friends. It
shows.
I hope I will get a chance to dance with her..
So, what would you say about what I said: "A lady is never free to interpret
the lead" following with my explanation?
BTW, I am not against distracting of the lead in ladies interpretation of
the lead. Consider it as a puzzle.
Igor.
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:17:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Igor,
Here's some food for thought.
What Nina and Razorgirl talk about go beyond technical
skills. It?s goes to what how the woman feels about
herself, as well. Her confidence and self-esteem. Her
belief that she is a partner in this dance.
In an earlier post, Jackie Wong mentioned that although
women advanced faster than men in the earlier stages of
learning tango, they have a much harder time advancing
later. I believe that part of the reason is their lack of
confidence. Women who work really hard at their tango also
work really hard at not anticipating, at waiting, at their
actually following and not just recognizing a step.
Planted in that work is the fear of not being "right", of
anticipating, of not getting the lead. So she?s bound to
have a lot of self-doubts, even with a good leader.
>>From her early days, she?ll be exposed to guys who will
teach her on the dance floor. Even the good ones will lead
a step that may make her hesitate just a little. And he?ll
repeat the step, she?ll feel a bit more confident this time
and do it correctly. But it?s still a reminder that she?s
not the one in control. She faltered. She?s not the
perfect follower, yet.
Getting past these doubts, even with a lot of training, is
hard. It finally takes saying "Well, here I am. Take it
or leave it." It takes a realization that it?s not about
trying to be like someone else or dancing like someone
else. It?s realizing its okay to dance as oneself, even if
one is not the perfect follower.
So how does a follower come to this realization. How does
she decide to take a few risks and try to insert her style
into the dance? How to become a strong feminine power?
It takes a partner she can trust, someone who won?t laugh
at her or be mad that she interrupted his step. She?s not
going to get it right at first. It?s going to take time
and practice. This realization, I think, is the difference
between high intermediate women and advanced women - to
dance without fear.
If you watch the pisa, you?ll get a sense of this as people
change partners. People will dance differently with other
partners. With some, they?ll feel secure and will become
playful. With others, they dance "straight", only
listening and responding in body but not in spirit. It's
not just music or steps they are conveying, but trust.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Thank you Kathryn!
>
>
>
> Yes, most of them are "undertaught".
>
> To do all the things Razor Girl described, with the few
> exceptions which are
> exceptional ( and usually having a great deal of
> experience in other
> dances, ballet, or ice skating ), it requires tremendous
> amount of
> dedication to training. She should be able to do things
> way beyond simple
> following and elementary technique, which are a must
> anyway.
>
>
>
> It was discussed here before: too many women learned
> basics, then picked up
> something from average ( it means mediocre ) leaders
> stopped learning
> anything. While for the truly advanced dance they need to
> learn a lot. It
> is difficult for them to advance. They are in this
> position because they are
> followers - it means they are at the mercy of men they
> are dancing and
> practicing with. While a man can choose what to do, what
> to practice, women
> usually can not do much ( remember, she is not on the
> level we consider to
> be high ). Some of them can not even imagine what is
> there - on high level.
> Men can. Some of them dance with genius ladies
> occasionally. They know what
> it is about.
>
>
>
> Now, here is a question: Who is the best teacher to train
> women to be
> advanced?
>
>
>
> The one dancing with whom a lady shows much higher level
> than usual. The one
> who is able to dance her beyond her imagination.
>
>
>
> Igor Polk.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Kathryn Johns [mailto:tangoartist@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 19:31
> To: Igor Polk
> Cc: Ed Doyle; tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role
>
>
>
> Does anyone realize or acknowledge
> how"undertaught"followers
>
> tend to be? How would a lady with a great desire,and
> perhaps latent ability,
>
>
> to do the things you so beautifully describe and be the
> follower who can
> have
>
> fun herself and play with you leaders without spending
> oodles of time and
>
> money to travel to the few places advertising that
> followers are catered to
>
> and given ways,means and permission to be something more
> than a pawn in
>
> the game?
>
> If all that is available for instruction are
> males(yes,from Argentina
> too!),the
>
> attention is generally on the leader. Some otherwise good
> instructors either
>
>
> forget (?!)or don't know how to guide followers except to
> repeat ad nauseum
>
> "keep your energy up"! And to make matters more
> difficult,disdain to dance
> in
>
> practica or milonga with less experienced followers
> unless they are young
>
> and/or pretty,then it doesn't matter if they can dance or
> walk and chew gum
>
> at the same time.
>
> After the initial learning curve of giving up
> control,there is little to get
> excited
>
> about except the eternal hope of arriving someday to some
> cherished place
>
> that you've seen in a movie or heard about from someone
> who has been there,
>
> or if you still believe the fairy tale that tango is all
> about the
> woman...with respect
>
> and to make her look her best.
>
> You have to dance with(and learn from) a lot of frogs.
>
> Maybe I am mad at men too.....but more with the system
> that accepts this.
>
>
>
> Kathryn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/26/07, Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
> Ed,
>
> I never was in any doubt that she is a good dancer and
> has many friends. It
> shows.
>
> I hope I will get a chance to dance with her..
>
>
>
> So, what would you say about what I said: "A lady is
> never free to interpret
> the lead" following with my explanation?
>
>
>
> BTW, I am not against distracting of the lead in ladies
> interpretation of
> the lead. Consider it as a puzzle.
>
>
>
> Igor.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:55:34 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: "'Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)'" <patangos@yahoo.com>, "'Igor Polk'"
<ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Trini:
"It takes a partner she can trust, someone who won't laugh
at her or be mad that she interrupted his step. "
Igor:
Yes, it is possible to use a partner like that, but it is not enough. He
should have a high dancing power exceeding or at least on the level she
wants to achieve.
Have I mentioned technical training when I was talking about training for
advanced level?
Absolutely not ! Technique - is an intermediate level.
Creativity, ability to build the dance ( and Tango dance in particular ),
ultimate feel of the partner, ability to lead back, ability to dance in
various styles to be able to fit precisely to music whatever it is,
developing beautiful and meaningful movements ( it alone take years ),
developing her own style, charm of the movements, and much more I can not
even imagine now.
Some women have it before starting tango dance ( all of them, actually ),
but then they meet the need to meet a matching partner of great dancing
power..
Igor Polk
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 21:33:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
> "It takes a partner she can trust, someone who won't
> laugh
> at her or be mad that she interrupted his step. "
>
> Igor:
>
> Yes, it is possible to use a partner like that, but it is
> not enough. He
> should have a high dancing power exceeding or at least on
> the level she
> wants to achieve.
Such a partner is useful for her to find inspiration and
encouragement and to test the final results on. But I
wouldn't depend on him for training. If anything, it may
be easier for her to practice these skills on less skilled
dancers.
In the end, she needs to find it within herself, otherwise,
she won't own her tango.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:37:45 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Here's some graffiti for you, list:
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>> "It takes a partner she can trust, someone who won't
>> laugh at her or be mad that she interrupted his step. "
>>
>> Igor:
>>
>> He should have a high dancing power exceeding or at least on
>> the level she wants to achieve.
>>
> Such a partner is useful for her to find inspiration and
> encouragement and to test the final results on. But I
> wouldn't depend on him for training. If anything, _it may
> be easier for her to practice these skills on less skilled
> dancers_. [Emphasis mine]
>
And what are you hoping to train people in-- how to be meaningless?
The condescension here towards "less skilled" dancers (whatever that
means) is almost unbelievable. It ain't about status, it's about chemistry.
> In the end, she needs to find it within herself, otherwise,
> she won't own her tango
From the beginning, she needs to find "it" in the embrace, as does he.
In tango, there are only co-owners.
The title of his thread now includes the rider "what teacher is better
_for advanced ladies_"-- although it need not. It might be argued that
if your head is still preoccupied with levels, you just ain't there yet.
Jake
DC
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 15:09:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: "Jake Spatz \(TangoDC.com\)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>, tango-L@mit.edu
Jake,
Recognizing that some dancers are "less skilled" is not
condescending. In fact, it can be more intimidating to
work with someone you know is more skilled than you are.
For women, this can be especially challenging because she
knows that she can cause the dance to falter because of a
missed lead and she'll feel like its her fault unless she
owns her tango.
If it makes you feel better to substitue "experienced" with
"skill", go ahead.
Lots of men work on their leading with less experienced
women, right? Same thing can hold true for women
partnering less experienced men. When it's done right, the
less experienced men are better because of it.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com> wrote:
> Here's some graffiti for you, list:
>
> Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> >> "It takes a partner she can trust, someone who won't
> >> laugh at her or be mad that she interrupted his step.
> "
> >>
> >> Igor:
> >>
> >> He should have a high dancing power exceeding or at
> least on
> >> the level she wants to achieve.
> >>
> > Such a partner is useful for her to find inspiration
> and
> > encouragement and to test the final results on. But I
> > wouldn't depend on him for training. If anything, _it
> may
> > be easier for her to practice these skills on less
> skilled
> > dancers_. [Emphasis mine]
> >
> And what are you hoping to train people in-- how to be
> meaningless?
>
> The condescension here towards "less skilled" dancers
> (whatever that
> means) is almost unbelievable. It ain't about status,
> it's about chemistry.
> > In the end, she needs to find it within herself,
> otherwise,
> > she won't own her tango
> From the beginning, she needs to find "it" in the
> embrace, as does he.
> In tango, there are only co-owners.
>
> The title of his thread now includes the rider "what
> teacher is better
> _for advanced ladies_"-- although it need not. It might
> be argued that
> if your head is still preoccupied with levels, you just
> ain't there yet.
>
> Jake
> DC
Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:11:01 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
Cc: spatz@tangodc.com, patangos@yahoo.com
Trini:
"more intimidating to work with someone you know is more skilled than you
are."
May be, but if so, he is not suitable for her to work at all on advanced
level.
Jake is right. Chemistry is most important. One can discover much more
working with the person with the right chemistry than with someone
intimidating, even if he has a loud name.
I do not like the word "perfecting skills". Yes, Trini, practically any
partner is suitable for that. But I'd like to emphasize again. Advanced
training has very little to do with "perfecting skills". "Perfecting skill"
- that is for intermediate level. Going to advanced level one should have a
set of skills which are perfect to work with: to learn how to create a
dance, discovering new opportunities in the dance.
"Creation of the dance" - that is the goal of advanced level training,
especially when one speaks about "interpretation of the lead by her own
choice"
It is impossible without a great partner who is equally good or more. First
of all it is him who create the dance, at least the generally structure of
it, no matter what women say. Then, in her "interpretations" he should be
able to catch up. Show me an intermediate man who can to it !
Nina said wonderfully:
" in tango, the woman is not powerful if the man is not, and the man's
power is trapped, if the woman he dances with is weak in her power."
Advanced woman's training is impossible without a man who is advanced.
What is training with the less advanced dancer? In reality, it is HIS
training. She brings him up to her, then ( if he is talented enough to move
forward ) they will progress further.
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 02:11:09 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> Recognizing that some dancers are "less skilled" is not
> condescending.
No, but urging advanced women to "practice on them" certainly is, which
is what you wrote and what I rebuked.
Jake
DC
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 02:22:08 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Igor and Other Perfect People,
I must live in a different Universe to the rest of you guys. First we had Stephen with his students who had b masteredb something
or other in 6-weeks, now we have Igor who thinks that Intermediate dancers have perfected their dancing skills. All I can say is
Wow!! Truth is, as Stephen eventually said b masteryb actually means something less than mastery and Ib m pretty sure that Igor
will agree that b perfectb actually means something far less than perfect. Why use words so loosely that they lose all meaning?
Ib m reminded of when I attended a Ballroom demonstration by Andrew Sinkinson who, although he never became a World
Champion, was recognised by many as the master of the Foxtrot. A basic figure in the Foxtrot is the Feather Step and
Sinkinson told us that his greatest regret was not failing to become World Champion but that, after 30-years of practice, he
had still failed to master the Feather Step.
Ib m also reminded of a recent article that reported on a comparison of test results between Asian and American children. The
Asian kids scored higher, as they usually do, but when the kids carried out a self-evaluation, they evaluated themselves much
higher than the Asian kids did. In kids, this kind of confidence may be good, but for adult tangueros, striving to be the best that
you can be, I donb t think so.
What Ib m getting at is b & WILLYOU PEOPLE GET REAL! Igor, Stephen, Ib m absolutely certain that thereb s not one person on this
List who has mastered or perfected any aspect of Tango. And, if there is, show us what it is you that youb ve mastered or
perfected and I guarantee someone will show you someone doing it better. And Ib m equally certain that the really great ones
will never accept that theyb ve perfected anything but will always be striving to improve. Many people on this List just think way
too much of themselves or evaluate themselves far too highly. And I think most of us know who they are.
Keith, HK
On Sun Jul 29 10:11 , "Igor Polk" sent:
>
>I do not like the word "perfecting skills". Yes, Trini, practically any
>partner is suitable for that. But I'd like to emphasize again. Advanced
>training has very little to do with "perfecting skills". "Perfecting skill"
>- that is for intermediate level. Going to advanced level one should have a
>set of skills which are perfect to work with: to learn how to create a
>dance, discovering new opportunities in the dance.
>
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 08:14:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: "Jake Spatz \(TangoDC.com\)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>, tango-L@mit.edu
We'll have different opinions on that. After all, you
wouldn't always know if a woman is practicing something on
you or not unless you asked her or she told you.
Jaimes Friedgen, who is a wonderful dancer and is
absolutely great about encouraging women to play and
suggest movements, gave me this tip during a private
lesson. He said that if I suggest something and he
notices, then I did it wrong. (Of course, if you think I'd
spend all of my time working on this with Jaimes at a
milonga when I only get to see him once or twice a year,
then you're nuts.)
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com> wrote:
> Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> > Recognizing that some dancers are "less skilled" is not
> > condescending.
> No, but urging advanced women to "practice on them"
> certainly is, which
> is what you wrote and what I rebuked.
>
> Jake
> DC
>
>
Got a little couch potato?
Check out fun summer activities for kids.
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 10:31:08 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
Keith,
I wonder, do YOU have some skills which you can tell you are perfect with?
Ok, Ok, it take "perfect" back. "Good enough".
If you can not say that some of your skills are "good enough" what a dancer
you are then?
Igor Polk
PS
Slogan:
"Advanced dancing is not about "perfecting skills", it is about "creating
dance" "
I hope Keith, you do not think that I call "not perfect you skills" at
advanced level. I only say this is not most important.
Thinking that mastering Volcada and Colgada you jump to advanced level, you
make a grave mistake. Which indeed cost you a lot of money and time.
Regarding my dance - I'd be happy to share it with anyone at Denver soon.
Please, let us dance together, I am new at this event!
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 10:33:36 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: <tango-L@mit.edu>
Trini: "if I suggest something and he notices, then I did it wrong."
Hm.. what to do it for then?
Ladies, if you suggest something, please, make sure that I have noticed it !
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 22:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>, tango-L@mit.edu
If more men were as good listeners as they say they should
be, then this wouldn't even be an issue! And tango
conversations would truly work both ways. But alas! Based
on my experience, I'd say it takes men at least 20 years to
develop really good listening skills. Not that that is a
criticism. It's just a reality check.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Trini: "if I suggest something and he notices, then I did
> it wrong."
>
> Hm.. what to do it for then?
>
> Ladies, if you suggest something, please, make sure that
> I have noticed it !
>
> Igor Polk
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 14:04:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's role - what teacher is better for
advanced ladies.
To: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>, Igor Polk
<ipolk@virtuar.com>, tango-L@mit.edu
So... when do you start counting?
PS I thought it only took 6 weeks. (tongue in cheek comment)
"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
If more men were as good listeners as they say they should
be, then this wouldn't even be an issue! And tango
conversations would truly work both ways. But alas! Based
on my experience, I'd say it takes men at least 20 years to
develop really good listening skills. Not that that is a
criticism. It's just a reality check.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk wrote:
> Trini: "if I suggest something and he notices, then I did
> it wrong."
>
> Hm.. what to do it for then?
>
> Ladies, if you suggest something, please, make sure that
> I have noticed it !
>
> Igor Polk
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.
