5085 Women's technique: obliques
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 20:01:28 +0100 (BST)
From: Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique: obliques
To: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>, Konstantin
Hi Trini,
I must say that 95% of the time I agree with what you
say, in this discussion as well as in previous ones,
since we both agree that the "traditional" way of
teaching tango has created more damage that good.
However, when you say:-
--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Trini, here. Actually, in moving efficiently, it's
> muscles
> deeper than the obliques that produce rotation.
> Here's a
> quote from my Dance Kinesiology book, which is used
> as a
> textbook in many university dance programs.
>
> "For example, turning the shoulders to face the left
> is a
> joint action involving a maintenance of extension
> and
> active rotation to the left. (Remember that gravity
> is a
> flexor of the spine in an upright position.) This
> would
> require a static contraction of the extensor muscles
> (extension fibers of erector spinae, deep posterior
> muscles
> and semispinalis) and shortening contraction of the
> left
> rotators (left rotation fibers of the erector spinae
> and
> the deep posterior muscles, and the right side of
> the
> semispinalis.)"
>
> Nowhere does she mention obliques. The erector
> spinae is a
> group of vertical muscles that attach to various
> points of
> the ribcage and spine. Deep posterior muscles go
> from
> vertebrae to vertebrae.
this is just not true.
1) Extracting a quote out of its context, especially
when it is but an example, makes it sound like
gobbledygook; but even from this quote, it is evident
she is talking about turning the shoulders: be your
ouwn guinea-pig & try it for yourself. If you only
turn the shoulders, keeping the chest immobile, you
will not feel any tension below it, only around the
back of the upper spine. Now try turning the ribcage
as well and you will feel contractions of the
abdominals.
2) The paragraph you have taken the quote from makes
it clear that she is only discussing "rotation
provided by extensor muscles" i.e. muscles at the back
of the spine. The abdominals are flexor muscles. The
previous, as well as the following paragraph
specifically mention the obliques involved in rotation
of the spine; furthermore, the table [10.1 Muscles of
the torso] on the following page lists both obliques
as being involved in rotation [well, I've got the
second [1996] edition].
3) The obliques, being further away from the axis are
much more instrumental in the rotation of the trunk
that the erector muscles, which are much closer to the
spine, and therefore need more effort. The extensors
work on the Class 1 lever principle, where the
resistance arm is longer than the effort arm,
requiring therefore much effort to achieve very little
[as in rotating the shoulders only]. The flexors, on
the other hand are basically Class 2 levers, with the
resistance close to the axis [fulcrum], requiring
therefore much less effort.
[See Kinesiology, Lutgens & Hamilton, 1997, Brown &
Benchmark, or
https://www.spinalfitness.com/Demo/123%20effective%20lever%20arm%20course.pdf]
4) The rotation takes place in the thoracic & cervical
spine, not the lumbar part, due to the shape of the
articulating facets of the lumbar vertebrae [Fitt,
p67, or any basic anatomy handbook].
I have found Fitt often very illuminating over the
years, but you can't always take what she says for
Gospel. What concerns us most as tango dancers &
teachers is posture; she correctly debunks the turnout
[p62] but does not mention that with 95% of the
population it will lead to hyperlordosis [p.245] since
most common mortals cannot, & should not be forced to,
do a 180 degree turnout [the ambition of all ballet
beginners] leading eventually to damage to individual
vertebrae [p.72] & permanent misaligment of the spine.
The greatest problem with women's technique is that it
usually is taught by individuals whose rump is
screaming out for a saddle [usually the younger ones,
who put ballet in their CV, but obviously couldn't
last too long doing it]. Their student copy their
posture yes, by osmosis, eventually becoming cripples
themselves, leading not only to chronic low back pain,
but upsetting the communication within the couple. For
more on that:
https://www.nwe.ufl.edu/~jdouglas/S03art1.pdf
Cheers,
Andy.
Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.
For email that puts you in control, choose Yahoo! Mail.
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 14:28:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique: obliques
To: Andrew RYSER "SZYMAQSKI" <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>,
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the posting. To be honest, I've put this topic
on the back burner until I can check with the local gurus,
who have been unavailable to me. I'll look into your
analysis more. But here are a few things.
> 1) Extracting a quote out of its context, especially
> when it is but an example, makes it sound like
> gobbledygook; but even from this quote, it is evident
> she is talking about turning the shoulders: be your
> ouwn guinea-pig & try it for yourself. If you only
> turn the shoulders, keeping the chest immobile, you
> will not feel any tension below it, only around the
> back of the upper spine. Now try turning the ribcage
> as well and you will feel contractions of the
> abdominals.
I don?t believe she is talking about only turning the
shoulders. She uses this example in a discussion about
torso muscles, not about the arm structure. Your example
is more about arm structure movement, not torso rotation.
> 2) The paragraph you have taken the quote from makes
> it clear that she is only discussing "rotation
> provided by extensor muscles" i.e. muscles at the back
> of the spine. The abdominals are flexor muscles. The
> previous, as well as the following paragraph
> specifically mention the obliques involved in rotation
> of the spine; furthermore, the table [10.1 Muscles of
> the torso] on the following page lists both obliques
> as being involved in rotation [well, I've got the
> second [1996] edition].
She mentions the abdominals in an example about a
left-twisting sit-up, which we don?t do in tango. So I
found that example is to be too muddy to be used in a
discussion about ochos. Konstantin?s argument about
obliques being the prime mover of rotation is what I
consider to be the point of discussion. She also makes a
point of movement always starting from the center of the
body (more on that later).
> 3) The obliques, being further away from the axis are
> much more instrumental in the rotation of the trunk
> that the erector muscles, which are much closer to the
> spine, and therefore need more effort. The extensors
> work on the Class 1 lever principle, where the
> resistance arm is longer than the effort arm,
> requiring therefore much effort to achieve very little
> [as in rotating the shoulders only]. The flexors, on
> the other hand are basically Class 2 levers, with the
> resistance close to the axis [fulcrum], requiring
> therefore much less effort.
> [See Kinesiology, Lutgens & Hamilton, 1997, Brown &
> Benchmark, or
>
https://www.spinalfitness.com/Demo/123%20effective%20lever%20arm%20course.pdf]
Thanks for the source. I?ll look more into that.
> 4) The rotation takes place in the thoracic & cervical
> spine, not the lumbar part, due to the shape of the
> articulating facets of the lumbar vertebrae [Fitt,
> p67, or any basic anatomy handbook].
On that same page, she also says that other experts believe
otherwise, though such rotational movement is probably
minimal. Our position is that in walking, the point of
where the thoracic and lumbar join is the joint where
rotation for walking should occurs for maximum efficiency.
But the big question is how does any of this relate to
teaching tango? I believe this aspect of rotation got
started when Sean talked about movement coming from joints.
There are a few reasons why we prefer to talk about bone
structure/joints than muscle structure in class, such as:
1. Most people can?t actually feel what muscle they are
using anyway. Tell someone to contract their obliques,
and they?ll probably end up contracting something else.
However, having them focus on a bone and the joint allows
their brain to figure out on its own which muscles to use.
2. Even with people who know something about their
superficial muscles, such as the obliques, they may use
them in such a way that inhibits their deeper muscles to
move freely (more below).
3. Bones can be felt with endpoints (joints) more easily
than muscles and muscle attachments. It?s much easier to
show the rotation of the spine and actually see the
movement of the vertebraes than it is to show the
contraction of the obliques. For the spine, I just need to
wear a fitted shirt, pull up my hair, and walk around so
folks can watch my back. But I am not going to lift up my
shirt to show how I contract my obliques. Even if I did, I
wouldn?t have much muscle definition to show anything,
anyway.
4. Muscles, as Konstantin pointed out, only contract and
cannot stretch itself. Yet we feel a stretch when we
dance, right? We tell people to stretch this or stretch
that. But when we stretch, we are obviously contracting a
muscle somewhere. Figuring out what muscle to contract so
that another muscle can stretch is simply too
mind-boggling. If people do contract a muscle, they often
have a difficult time releasing it.
In our work, we focus on REMOVING INHIBITORS to movement
instead of trying to force a movement. We believe that it
is these inhibitors that make tango harder than it should
be to the average person. The most common inhibitor is
tension in the superficial muscles (biceps, deltoids,
obliques, etc). When these are not fully relaxed, they
limit the range of motion of deeper muscles and, thus,
limit the range of motion of the joints. They act as
?containers? instead of ?expanders?. In working with
people, we?ve found that the first thing they need to learn
is how to recognize tension and release their superficial
muscles. An example is when a beginner first learns the
lapis, he usually tilts because he hasn?t learned to
separate his leg from his pelvis (his muscles aren?t
relaxed).
The latter method ends us creating stiff movements and
tension. Ours is a longer term method but has worked
effectively in producing good dancers. We also have a
movement expert that works hands-on with people. It also
has the benefit of producing a positive learning
environment without the pressure to learn the hottest new
step. Instead, dancers focus on what feels good and
compassion for other dancers. It?s groovy, man. :)
Trini de Pittsburgh
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:28:01 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique: obliques
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Trini et al,
The problem with all such anatomical discussions as tools for tango
instruction is that no dancer is moving as a solo entity when they're in
the embrace. Even if a woman starts dancing by herself, what she does
has consequences for her partner.
The mechanics of body movement in the embrace aren't the same as in solo
movement.
I'm not saying that there's no insight in what you're looking at. But
don't put too much stock in it. A woman's torso might rotate without her
using _any_ muscles at all, if I'm her partner and I decide it will be
that way. And to make that happen, I might only use muscles in my legs.
Jake
DC
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Thanks for the posting. To be honest, I've put this topic
> on the back burner until I can check with the local gurus,
> who have been unavailable to me. I'll look into your
> analysis more. But here are a few things.
>
>
>> 1) Extracting a quote out of its context, especially
>> when it is but an example, makes it sound like
>> gobbledygook; but even from this quote, it is evident
>> she is talking about turning the shoulders: be your
>> ouwn guinea-pig & try it for yourself. If you only
>> turn the shoulders, keeping the chest immobile, you
>> will not feel any tension below it, only around the
>> back of the upper spine. Now try turning the ribcage
>> as well and you will feel contractions of the
>> abdominals.
>>
>
> I don't believe she is talking about only turning the
> shoulders. She uses this example in a discussion about
> torso muscles, not about the arm structure. Your example
> is more about arm structure movement, not torso rotation.
>
>
>
>> 2) The paragraph you have taken the quote from makes
>> it clear that she is only discussing "rotation
>> provided by extensor muscles" i.e. muscles at the back
>> of the spine. The abdominals are flexor muscles. The
>> previous, as well as the following paragraph
>> specifically mention the obliques involved in rotation
>> of the spine; furthermore, the table [10.1 Muscles of
>> the torso] on the following page lists both obliques
>> as being involved in rotation [well, I've got the
>> second [1996] edition].
>>
>
> She mentions the abdominals in an example about a
> left-twisting sit-up, which we don't do in tango. So I
> found that example is to be too muddy to be used in a
> discussion about ochos. Konstantin's argument about
> obliques being the prime mover of rotation is what I
> consider to be the point of discussion. She also makes a
> point of movement always starting from the center of the
> body (more on that later).
>
>
>> 3) The obliques, being further away from the axis are
>> much more instrumental in the rotation of the trunk
>> that the erector muscles, which are much closer to the
>> spine, and therefore need more effort. The extensors
>> work on the Class 1 lever principle, where the
>> resistance arm is longer than the effort arm,
>> requiring therefore much effort to achieve very little
>> [as in rotating the shoulders only]. The flexors, on
>> the other hand are basically Class 2 levers, with the
>> resistance close to the axis [fulcrum], requiring
>> therefore much less effort.
>> [See Kinesiology, Lutgens & Hamilton, 1997, Brown &
>> Benchmark, or
>>
>>
> https://www.spinalfitness.com/Demo/123%20effective%20lever%20arm%20course.pdf]
>
> Thanks for the source. I'll look more into that.
>
>
>
>> 4) The rotation takes place in the thoracic & cervical
>> spine, not the lumbar part, due to the shape of the
>> articulating facets of the lumbar vertebrae [Fitt,
>> p67, or any basic anatomy handbook].
>>
>
> On that same page, she also says that other experts believe
> otherwise, though such rotational movement is probably
> minimal. Our position is that in walking, the point of
> where the thoracic and lumbar join is the joint where
> rotation for walking should occurs for maximum efficiency.
>
> But the big question is how does any of this relate to
> teaching tango? I believe this aspect of rotation got
> started when Sean talked about movement coming from joints.
> There are a few reasons why we prefer to talk about bone
> structure/joints than muscle structure in class, such as:
>
> 1. Most people can't actually feel what muscle they are
> using anyway. Tell someone to contract their obliques,
> and they'll probably end up contracting something else.
> However, having them focus on a bone and the joint allows
> their brain to figure out on its own which muscles to use.
>
>
> 2. Even with people who know something about their
> superficial muscles, such as the obliques, they may use
> them in such a way that inhibits their deeper muscles to
> move freely (more below).
>
> 3. Bones can be felt with endpoints (joints) more easily
> than muscles and muscle attachments. It's much easier to
> show the rotation of the spine and actually see the
> movement of the vertebraes than it is to show the
> contraction of the obliques. For the spine, I just need to
> wear a fitted shirt, pull up my hair, and walk around so
> folks can watch my back. But I am not going to lift up my
> shirt to show how I contract my obliques. Even if I did, I
> wouldn't have much muscle definition to show anything,
> anyway.
>
> 4. Muscles, as Konstantin pointed out, only contract and
> cannot stretch itself. Yet we feel a stretch when we
> dance, right? We tell people to stretch this or stretch
> that. But when we stretch, we are obviously contracting a
> muscle somewhere. Figuring out what muscle to contract so
> that another muscle can stretch is simply too
> mind-boggling. If people do contract a muscle, they often
> have a difficult time releasing it.
>
> In our work, we focus on REMOVING INHIBITORS to movement
> instead of trying to force a movement. We believe that it
> is these inhibitors that make tango harder than it should
> be to the average person. The most common inhibitor is
> tension in the superficial muscles (biceps, deltoids,
> obliques, etc). When these are not fully relaxed, they
> limit the range of motion of deeper muscles and, thus,
> limit the range of motion of the joints. They act as
> "containers" instead of "expanders". In working with
> people, we've found that the first thing they need to learn
> is how to recognize tension and release their superficial
> muscles. An example is when a beginner first learns the
> lapis, he usually tilts because he hasn't learned to
> separate his leg from his pelvis (his muscles aren't
> relaxed).
>
> The latter method ends us creating stiff movements and
> tension. Ours is a longer term method but has worked
> effectively in producing good dancers. We also have a
> movement expert that works hands-on with people. It also
> has the benefit of producing a positive learning
> environment without the pressure to learn the hottest new
> step. Instead, dancers focus on what feels good and
> compassion for other dancers. It's groovy, man. :)
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:32:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique: obliques
To: "Jake Spatz \(TangoDC.com\)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>, tango-L@mit.edu
--- "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com> wrote:
> Trini et al,
>
> The problem with all such anatomical discussions as tools
> for tango
> instruction is that no dancer is moving as a solo entity
> when they're in
> the embrace. Even if a woman starts dancing by herself,
> what she does
> has consequences for her partner.
Exactly! And vice versa. So with this understanding, one
can influence your partner's movements, regardless of
whether they are aware of the mechanics.
A couple of months ago at a milonga, I asked a friend of
mine to dance. He initially declined, saying that he
hadn't been dancing well that night. I talked him into it,
anyway, and when we embraced I immediately noticed that his
back was stiff, which meant that he had limited mobility.
By exaggerating my own spinal movement more, I was able to
induce his spinal movement and free up the rest of his body
to move. We had a terrific tanda. Afterwards, he said,
"Trini, what did you do to me?". He was so glad he had
agreed to dance. I just smiled. He had driven two hours
to get here. I couldn't let him leave for home without
making sure he had a good dance.
It's also a simple technique I use to encourage novice men
to get out on the dance floor before they take a single
lesson. All they need is the confidence that they can move
and a sense of freedom. I just ask them to walk with me a
little bit. Before you know it, they're trying changes of
front and turns as they are navigating along the dance
floor. (Out of curiosity, Jake, what do you do when a man
visits a milonga to see what tango is like? How do you
encourage him to try it?)
For leading, a man can use this rotation to get the woman
to extend her leg backwards without shifting his weight
forward. A couple of my favorite partners can move my
right arm to induce me to do a back cross/ocho. They do
not do any torsion themselves (only a arm structure
movement), but it still affects my spinal movement. As a
follower, I just need to remember to keep my arm loose for
these guys, whereas I usually tense up more for a man who
uses my arm randomly.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:40:03 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique: obliques
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hi Trini,
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> (Out of curiosity, Jake, what do you do when a man
> visits a milonga to see what tango is like? How do you
> encourage him to try it?)
>
I don't. Why?
Jake
