World Class tango dancers....


5039 World Class tango dancers....	ARTICLE INDEX
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:38:47 -0300 From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com> Subject: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: tango-l@mit.edu Nino wrote: If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class tango dancer and might as well forget about it because the world of tango, with all the "classy" dancing, begins and ends in Argentina.:) This is an absolute. Well Nina, you might want to rethink what you have written. Junior Cervila, he is in my opinion an excellent dancer and from..........Brasil. The same for Paulo Araujo. In NYC there is Angel Clemente Garcia, one of the best ..... and a Mexican. There are people >from other places as well that are wonderful dancers. I have been dragged and pushed around the floor like a dust mop by several Argentine name brands who without a choreographed dance could not lead their way out of a dark cave with 1000 lit torches. There are many Argentines who cannot dance gracefully or elegantly. Sometimes I watch them and I cannot for the life of me figure out what people think is so great about them other than they speak English, charge lots of money, and are arrogant, therefore, they must be good. Now another myth....there are not a million wonder dancers here. It is all relative. When I came here in 2000 I thought each and everyone of them was wonderful, incredible. I marveled at what I thought was dancing to the music. Now I live and dance here and I can tell you, that here is no better here than there. (Wherever there is) There are maybe less than 10 men I want to dance with. Here is the difference...we have more dancers, more places to dance. So it might seem like there are lots more good dancers. It is all relative. If you live in Iowa then San Francisco seems like Mecca. I lived in San Francisco and as I commuted to Buenos Aires, San Francisco did not seem much like Mecca to me. The percentages of good dancers "should" be higher when there are more dancers....because there are more dancers. Dancing with bad dancers. I don't do it. Not knowingly. The best dancers here male and female sit until they want to dance. When the music is right, when there is someone to dance with. Once this gentleman I know came into the milonga. He came to get me to dance to a tanda. He told me that I was going to be his only tanda of the evening and then he was going to leave. His reason was the women left him uninspired. Maybe this sounds harsh, but this is not unusual here. One night we went to 3 milongas because we as women were uninspired. We were trying to find out where the men were to dance with. We ended up drinking champagne in Gricel. What happens when I accept a dance with a man who is not that good. I dance with him if he is a nice guy. It is not his fault we both made a mistake. If he is completely undanceable, at least for me. I have no choice but to end the dance. To walk off the floor here is an insult to one of the parties. Usually it is a verguenza for the man, not me. Here you need to earn the right to walk off the floor. I can do it, but I do not like to. Not unless the man is a total jerk, or he is hurting me with his horrible dancing. How do I dance with them? I concentrate very hard on my balance and axis to stay upright, and many times I have to look at the floor because there is no lead. Even more so I do not dance close embrace if the dancer is really poor. Then I would really be dragged around. If the man is from the U.S. and used to dancing patterns, I have to watch his feet. I no longer live in the U.S. and therefore do not know what patterns are now being taught, so I have to figure out the steps before they happen. The point is that tango is tango. Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:15:11 -0600 From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: tango-l@mit.edu Deby, I just want to clarify that we are not talking about the same things. You are talking about Brazil, Mexico, San Francisco, i.e. places that belong to the world. I am talking about the world of Argentine tango. The world of Argentine tango begins and ends in Argentina. If it exits, it becomes some other world, like the geographic world. The geographic world-class is too low of a standard of dancing. The Argentine world-class is the real thing. So, in terms of the world-class dancer, with the world beginning and ending in Argentina, no other geographic place can produce one. So one can go to Argentina, into the world of tango that is, and try to become a world-class dancer there even if they were not born Argentine. And it still will not happen because of that tiny blemish of the wrong origin. The bottom line is that in order to be considered a true world-class dancer, one must be hailed to be so by the Argentines themselves. And if you are not Argneitne, that will never happen. Argentines are fanatical nationalists. Warmest regards, Nina At 05:38 PM 7/17/2007, Deby Novitz wrote: >Nino wrote: > >If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class tango >dancer and might as well forget about it because the world of tango, >with all the "classy" dancing, begins and ends in Argentina.:) This >is an absolute. > > >Well Nina, you might want to rethink what you have written. Junior >Cervila, he is in my opinion an excellent dancer and >from..........Brasil. The same for Paulo Araujo. In NYC there is Angel >Clemente Garcia, one of the best ..... and a Mexican. There are people >>from other places as well that are wonderful dancers. > >I have been dragged and pushed around the floor like a dust mop by >several Argentine name brands who without a choreographed dance could >not lead their way out of a dark cave with 1000 lit torches. There are >many Argentines who cannot dance gracefully or elegantly. Sometimes I >watch them and I cannot for the life of me figure out what people think >is so great about them other than they speak English, charge lots of >money, and are arrogant, therefore, they must be good. > >Now another myth....there are not a million wonder dancers here. It is >all relative. When I came here in 2000 I thought each and everyone of >them was wonderful, incredible. I marveled at what I thought was >dancing to the music. Now I live and dance here and I can tell you, >that here is no better here than there. (Wherever there is) There are >maybe less than 10 men I want to dance with. Here is the >difference...we have more dancers, more places to dance. So it might >seem like there are lots more good dancers. It is all relative. If you >live in Iowa then San Francisco seems like Mecca. I lived in San >Francisco and as I commuted to Buenos Aires, San Francisco did not seem >much like Mecca to me. The percentages of good dancers "should" be >higher when there are more dancers....because there are more dancers. > >Dancing with bad dancers. I don't do it. Not knowingly. The best >dancers here male and female sit until they want to dance. When the >music is right, when there is someone to dance with. Once this >gentleman I know came into the milonga. He came to get me to dance to a >tanda. He told me that I was going to be his only tanda of the evening >and then he was going to leave. His reason was the women left him >uninspired. Maybe this sounds harsh, but this is not unusual here. One >night we went to 3 milongas because we as women were uninspired. We >were trying to find out where the men were to dance with. We ended up >drinking champagne in Gricel. > >What happens when I accept a dance with a man who is not that good. I >dance with him if he is a nice guy. It is not his fault we both made a >mistake. If he is completely undanceable, at least for me. I have no >choice but to end the dance. To walk off the floor here is an insult to >one of the parties. Usually it is a verguenza for the man, not me. >Here you need to earn the right to walk off the floor. I can do it, but >I do not like to. Not unless the man is a total jerk, or he is hurting >me with his horrible dancing. How do I dance with them? I concentrate >very hard on my balance and axis to stay upright, and many times I have >to look at the floor because there is no lead. Even more so I do not >dance close embrace if the dancer is really poor. Then I would really >be dragged around. If the man is from the U.S. and used to dancing >patterns, I have to watch his feet. I no longer live in the U.S. and >therefore do not know what patterns are now being taught, so I have to >figure out the steps before they happen. > >The point is that tango is tango. > > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:20:57 -0500 From: "Clif Davis" <clif@clifdavis.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: <tango-l@mit.edu> Ummmm, let me see how I can reply to this.... ... B.... S.... I can't remember where I have seen more arrogance than on this list. And people say people from the US are arrogant. We have a long way to go to catch up with this steaming pile. Oops, sorry, was that arrogant? CAD3 -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:15 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... Deby, I just want to clarify that we are not talking about the same things. You are talking about Brazil, Mexico, San Francisco, i.e. places that belong to the world. I am talking about the world of Argentine tango. The world of Argentine tango begins and ends in Argentina. If it exits, it becomes some other world, like the geographic world. The geographic world-class is too low of a standard of dancing. The Argentine world-class is the real thing. So, in terms of the world-class dancer, with the world beginning and ending in Argentina, no other geographic place can produce one. So one can go to Argentina, into the world of tango that is, and try to become a world-class dancer there even if they were not born Argentine. And it still will not happen because of that tiny blemish of the wrong origin. The bottom line is that in order to be considered a true world-class dancer, one must be hailed to be so by the Argentines themselves. And if you are not Argneitne, that will never happen. Argentines are fanatical nationalists. Warmest regards, Nina At 05:38 PM 7/17/2007, Deby Novitz wrote: >Nino wrote: > >If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class tango >dancer and might as well forget about it because the world of tango, >with all the "classy" dancing, begins and ends in Argentina.:) This >is an absolute. > > >Well Nina, you might want to rethink what you have written. Junior >Cervila, he is in my opinion an excellent dancer and >from..........Brasil. The same for Paulo Araujo. In NYC there is Angel >Clemente Garcia, one of the best ..... and a Mexican. There are people >>from other places as well that are wonderful dancers. > >I have been dragged and pushed around the floor like a dust mop by >several Argentine name brands who without a choreographed dance could >not lead their way out of a dark cave with 1000 lit torches. There are >many Argentines who cannot dance gracefully or elegantly. Sometimes I >watch them and I cannot for the life of me figure out what people think >is so great about them other than they speak English, charge lots of >money, and are arrogant, therefore, they must be good. > >Now another myth....there are not a million wonder dancers here. It is >all relative. When I came here in 2000 I thought each and everyone of >them was wonderful, incredible. I marveled at what I thought was >dancing to the music. Now I live and dance here and I can tell you, >that here is no better here than there. (Wherever there is) There are >maybe less than 10 men I want to dance with. Here is the >difference...we have more dancers, more places to dance. So it might >seem like there are lots more good dancers. It is all relative. If you >live in Iowa then San Francisco seems like Mecca. I lived in San >Francisco and as I commuted to Buenos Aires, San Francisco did not seem >much like Mecca to me. The percentages of good dancers "should" be >higher when there are more dancers....because there are more dancers. > >Dancing with bad dancers. I don't do it. Not knowingly. The best >dancers here male and female sit until they want to dance. When the >music is right, when there is someone to dance with. Once this >gentleman I know came into the milonga. He came to get me to dance to a >tanda. He told me that I was going to be his only tanda of the evening >and then he was going to leave. His reason was the women left him >uninspired. Maybe this sounds harsh, but this is not unusual here. One >night we went to 3 milongas because we as women were uninspired. We >were trying to find out where the men were to dance with. We ended up >drinking champagne in Gricel. > >What happens when I accept a dance with a man who is not that good. I >dance with him if he is a nice guy. It is not his fault we both made a >mistake. If he is completely undanceable, at least for me. I have no >choice but to end the dance. To walk off the floor here is an insult to >one of the parties. Usually it is a verguenza for the man, not me. >Here you need to earn the right to walk off the floor. I can do it, but >I do not like to. Not unless the man is a total jerk, or he is hurting >me with his horrible dancing. How do I dance with them? I concentrate >very hard on my balance and axis to stay upright, and many times I have >to look at the floor because there is no lead. Even more so I do not >dance close embrace if the dancer is really poor. Then I would really >be dragged around. If the man is from the U.S. and used to dancing >patterns, I have to watch his feet. I no longer live in the U.S. and >therefore do not know what patterns are now being taught, so I have to >figure out the steps before they happen. > >The point is that tango is tango. > > __________ NOD32 2404 (20070717) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. https://www.eset.com Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 18:33:45 -0600 From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: <tango-l@mit.edu> But... our American arrogance is very meek - what arrogance it is to give all the glory to the Argentines?! At 06:20 PM 7/17/2007, Clif Davis wrote: >Ummmm, let me see how I can reply to this.... ... B.... S.... >I can't remember where I have seen more arrogance than on this list. >And people say people from the US are arrogant. We have a long way to go to >catch up with this steaming pile. > >Oops, sorry, was that arrogant? >CAD3 >-----Original Message----- >From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of >Nina Pesochinsky >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:15 PM >To: tango-l@mit.edu >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... > >Deby, > >I just want to clarify that we are not talking about the same >things. You are talking about Brazil, Mexico, San Francisco, i.e. >places that belong to the world. > >I am talking about the world of Argentine tango. The world of >Argentine tango begins and ends in Argentina. If it exits, it >becomes some other world, like the geographic world. The geographic >world-class is too low of a standard of dancing. The Argentine >world-class is the real thing. > >So, in terms of the world-class dancer, with the world beginning and >ending in Argentina, no other geographic place can produce one. > >So one can go to Argentina, into the world of tango that is, and try >to become a world-class dancer there even if they were not born >Argentine. And it still will not happen because of that tiny blemish >of the wrong origin. > >The bottom line is that in order to be considered a true world-class >dancer, one must be hailed to be so by the Argentines >themselves. And if you are not Argneitne, that will never >happen. Argentines are fanatical nationalists. > >Warmest regards, > >Nina > > > > > > >At 05:38 PM 7/17/2007, Deby Novitz wrote: > >Nino wrote: > > > >If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class tango > >dancer and might as well forget about it because the world of tango, > >with all the "classy" dancing, begins and ends in Argentina.:) This > >is an absolute. > > > > > >Well Nina, you might want to rethink what you have written. Junior > >Cervila, he is in my opinion an excellent dancer and > >from..........Brasil. The same for Paulo Araujo. In NYC there is Angel > >Clemente Garcia, one of the best ..... and a Mexican. There are people > >from other places as well that are wonderful dancers. > > > >I have been dragged and pushed around the floor like a dust mop by > >several Argentine name brands who without a choreographed dance could > >not lead their way out of a dark cave with 1000 lit torches. There are > >many Argentines who cannot dance gracefully or elegantly. Sometimes I > >watch them and I cannot for the life of me figure out what people think > >is so great about them other than they speak English, charge lots of > >money, and are arrogant, therefore, they must be good. > > > >Now another myth....there are not a million wonder dancers here. It is > >all relative. When I came here in 2000 I thought each and everyone of > >them was wonderful, incredible. I marveled at what I thought was > >dancing to the music. Now I live and dance here and I can tell you, > >that here is no better here than there. (Wherever there is) There are > >maybe less than 10 men I want to dance with. Here is the > >difference...we have more dancers, more places to dance. So it might > >seem like there are lots more good dancers. It is all relative. If you > >live in Iowa then San Francisco seems like Mecca. I lived in San > >Francisco and as I commuted to Buenos Aires, San Francisco did not seem > >much like Mecca to me. The percentages of good dancers "should" be > >higher when there are more dancers....because there are more dancers. > > > >Dancing with bad dancers. I don't do it. Not knowingly. The best > >dancers here male and female sit until they want to dance. When the > >music is right, when there is someone to dance with. Once this > >gentleman I know came into the milonga. He came to get me to dance to a > >tanda. He told me that I was going to be his only tanda of the evening > >and then he was going to leave. His reason was the women left him > >uninspired. Maybe this sounds harsh, but this is not unusual here. One > >night we went to 3 milongas because we as women were uninspired. We > >were trying to find out where the men were to dance with. We ended up > >drinking champagne in Gricel. > > > >What happens when I accept a dance with a man who is not that good. I > >dance with him if he is a nice guy. It is not his fault we both made a > >mistake. If he is completely undanceable, at least for me. I have no > >choice but to end the dance. To walk off the floor here is an insult to > >one of the parties. Usually it is a verguenza for the man, not me. > >Here you need to earn the right to walk off the floor. I can do it, but > >I do not like to. Not unless the man is a total jerk, or he is hurting > >me with his horrible dancing. How do I dance with them? I concentrate > >very hard on my balance and axis to stay upright, and many times I have > >to look at the floor because there is no lead. Even more so I do not > >dance close embrace if the dancer is really poor. Then I would really > >be dragged around. If the man is from the U.S. and used to dancing > >patterns, I have to watch his feet. I no longer live in the U.S. and > >therefore do not know what patterns are now being taught, so I have to > >figure out the steps before they happen. > > > >The point is that tango is tango. > > > > > > > >__________ NOD32 2404 (20070717) Information __________ > >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >https://www.eset.com > > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:44:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: tango-l@mit.edu Of all postings to this list this posting by Nina is the most nonsensical and offensive. Nina is not only arrogant but also misinformed about the history of the dance. Little does she know about the history of the dance. That the Argentines on the turn of the last century condemned Tango (and disowning it)and the French welcomed with open arms. That the Tango is not an Argentine product, but the product of fusion between afro-Caribbean and European rhythms. That in an era of increasing global awareness any claims to sole cultural ownership over any practice is silly and infantile. Nina statement is a disservice to all of the great masters. It is a disservice to all of the hard working folks attempting to promote tango as an universal art form. Cheers, Amaury -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:21 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... Ummmm, let me see how I can reply to this.... ... B.... S.... I can't remember where I have seen more arrogance than on this list. And people say people from the US are arrogant. We have a long way to go to catch up with this steaming pile. Oops, sorry, was that arrogant? CAD3 -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:15 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... Deby, I just want to clarify that we are not talking about the same things. You are talking about Brazil, Mexico, San Francisco, i.e. places that belong to the world. I am talking about the world of Argentine tango. The world of Argentine tango begins and ends in Argentina. If it exits, it becomes some other world, like the geographic world. The geographic world-class is too low of a standard of dancing. The Argentine world-class is the real thing. So, in terms of the world-class dancer, with the world beginning and ending in Argentina, no other geographic place can produce one. So one can go to Argentina, into the world of tango that is, and try to become a world-class dancer there even if they were not born Argentine. And it still will not happen because of that tiny blemish of the wrong origin. The bottom line is that in order to be considered a true world-class dancer, one must be hailed to be so by the Argentines themselves. And if you are not Argneitne, that will never happen. Argentines are fanatical nationalists. Warmest regards, Nina At 05:38 PM 7/17/2007, Deby Novitz wrote: >Nino wrote: > >If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class tango >dancer and might as well forget about it because the world of tango, >with all the "classy" dancing, begins and ends in Argentina.:) This >is an absolute. > > >Well Nina, you might want to rethink what you have written. Junior >Cervila, he is in my opinion an excellent dancer and >from..........Brasil. The same for Paulo Araujo. In NYC there is Angel >Clemente Garcia, one of the best ..... and a Mexican. There are people >>from other places as well that are wonderful dancers. > >I have been dragged and pushed around the floor like a dust mop by >several Argentine name brands who without a choreographed dance could >not lead their way out of a dark cave with 1000 lit torches. There are >many Argentines who cannot dance gracefully or elegantly. Sometimes I >watch them and I cannot for the life of me figure out what people think >is so great about them other than they speak English, charge lots of >money, and are arrogant, therefore, they must be good. > >Now another myth....there are not a million wonder dancers here. It is >all relative. When I came here in 2000 I thought each and everyone of >them was wonderful, incredible. I marveled at what I thought was >dancing to the music. Now I live and dance here and I can tell you, >that here is no better here than there. (Wherever there is) There are >maybe less than 10 men I want to dance with. Here is the >difference...we have more dancers, more places to dance. So it might >seem like there are lots more good dancers. It is all relative. If you >live in Iowa then San Francisco seems like Mecca. I lived in San >Francisco and as I commuted to Buenos Aires, San Francisco did not seem >much like Mecca to me. The percentages of good dancers "should" be >higher when there are more dancers....because there are more dancers. > >Dancing with bad dancers. I don't do it. Not knowingly. The best >dancers here male and female sit until they want to dance. When the >music is right, when there is someone to dance with. Once this >gentleman I know came into the milonga. He came to get me to dance to a >tanda. He told me that I was going to be his only tanda of the evening >and then he was going to leave. His reason was the women left him >uninspired. Maybe this sounds harsh, but this is not unusual here. One >night we went to 3 milongas because we as women were uninspired. We >were trying to find out where the men were to dance with. We ended up >drinking champagne in Gricel. > >What happens when I accept a dance with a man who is not that good. I >dance with him if he is a nice guy. It is not his fault we both made a >mistake. If he is completely undanceable, at least for me. I have no >choice but to end the dance. To walk off the floor here is an insult to >one of the parties. Usually it is a verguenza for the man, not me. >Here you need to earn the right to walk off the floor. I can do it, but >I do not like to. Not unless the man is a total jerk, or he is hurting >me with his horrible dancing. How do I dance with them? I concentrate >very hard on my balance and axis to stay upright, and many times I have >to look at the floor because there is no lead. Even more so I do not >dance close embrace if the dancer is really poor. Then I would really >be dragged around. If the man is from the U.S. and used to dancing >patterns, I have to watch his feet. I no longer live in the U.S. and >therefore do not know what patterns are now being taught, so I have to >figure out the steps before they happen. > >The point is that tango is tango. > > __________ NOD32 2404 (20070717) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. https://www.eset.com Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:47:10 -0500 From: "Clif Davis" <clif@clifdavis.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: <tango-l@mit.edu> How can I argue with such flawless logic... Let's dance. Clif Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:12:03 -0600 From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: tango-l@mit.edu Miles, don't read this! It is totally uncivilized! I am on my knees begging forgiveness of all the well-educated, well-informed, super sensitive, delicate beings on this list who do not bother to contribute to the world of tango knowledge except when mortally offended. And I take full credit for making people like Amaury so outraged that their little voices are finally heard roaring defending the history, the great maestros, and the glorious history of tango and its rhythms! And they manage to offend most Argentines by claiming that tango is not an Argentine product! Such gorgeous idealism and ignorance makes me misty... Hey folks, in case those of you who have been dancing for a decade or two do not know, Argentine Tango is European! You go, Amaury! I am cheering you on! Nina Arrogant, abnoxious and bored-to-tears P.S. Universal art form?! I swear that these greedy foreigners just want to make my Argentine Tango their own! At 06:44 PM 7/17/2007, Amaury de Siqueira wrote: >Of all postings to this list this posting by Nina is >the most nonsensical >and offensive. > >Nina is not only arrogant but also misinformed about >the history of the >dance. Little does she know about the history of the >dance. That the >Argentines on the turn of the last century condemned >Tango (and disowning >it)and the French welcomed with open arms. That the >Tango is not an >Argentine product, but the product of fusion between >afro-Caribbean and >European rhythms. That in an era of increasing >global awareness any claims >to sole cultural ownership over any practice is silly >and infantile. > >Nina statement is a disservice to all of the great >masters. It is a >disservice to all of the hard working folks attempting >to promote tango as >an universal art form. > >Cheers, >Amaury > > >-----Original Message----- >From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu >[mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of >Clif Davis >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:21 PM >To: tango-l@mit.edu >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... > > >Ummmm, let me see how I can reply to this.... ... >B.... S.... >I can't remember where I have seen more arrogance than >on this list. >And people say people from the US are arrogant. We >have a long way to go to >catch up with this steaming pile. > >Oops, sorry, was that arrogant? >CAD3 >-----Original Message----- >From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu >[mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of >Nina Pesochinsky >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:15 PM >To: tango-l@mit.edu >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... > >Deby, > >I just want to clarify that we are not talking about >the same >things. You are talking about Brazil, Mexico, San >Francisco, i.e. >places that belong to the world. > >I am talking about the world of Argentine tango. The >world of >Argentine tango begins and ends in Argentina. If it >exits, it >becomes some other world, like the geographic world. >The geographic >world-class is too low of a standard of dancing. The >Argentine >world-class is the real thing. > >So, in terms of the world-class dancer, with the world >beginning and >ending in Argentina, no other geographic place can >produce one. > >So one can go to Argentina, into the world of tango >that is, and try >to become a world-class dancer there even if they were >not born >Argentine. And it still will not happen because of >that tiny blemish >of the wrong origin. > >The bottom line is that in order to be considered a >true world-class >dancer, one must be hailed to be so by the Argentines >themselves. And if you are not Argneitne, that will >never >happen. Argentines are fanatical nationalists. > >Warmest regards, > >Nina > > > > > > >At 05:38 PM 7/17/2007, Deby Novitz wrote: > >Nino wrote: > > > >If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class >tango > >dancer and might as well forget about it because the >world of tango, > >with all the "classy" dancing, begins and ends in >Argentina.:) This > >is an absolute. > > > > > >Well Nina, you might want to rethink what you have >written. Junior > >Cervila, he is in my opinion an excellent dancer and > >from..........Brasil. The same for Paulo Araujo. In >NYC there is Angel > >Clemente Garcia, one of the best ..... and a Mexican. > There are people > >from other places as well that are wonderful dancers. > > > >I have been dragged and pushed around the floor like >a dust mop by > >several Argentine name brands who without a >choreographed dance could > >not lead their way out of a dark cave with 1000 lit >torches. There are > >many Argentines who cannot dance gracefully or >elegantly. Sometimes I > >watch them and I cannot for the life of me figure out >what people think > >is so great about them other than they speak English, >charge lots of > >money, and are arrogant, therefore, they must be >good. > > > >Now another myth....there are not a million wonder >dancers here. It is > >all relative. When I came here in 2000 I thought >each and everyone of > >them was wonderful, incredible. I marveled at what I >thought was > >dancing to the music. Now I live and dance here and >I can tell you, > >that here is no better here than there. (Wherever >there is) There are > >maybe less than 10 men I want to dance with. Here is >the > >difference...we have more dancers, more places to >dance. So it might > >seem like there are lots more good dancers. It is >all relative. If you > >live in Iowa then San Francisco seems like Mecca. I >lived in San > >Francisco and as I commuted to Buenos Aires, San >Francisco did not seem > >much like Mecca to me. The percentages of good >dancers "should" be > >higher when there are more dancers....because there >are more dancers. > > > >Dancing with bad dancers. I don't do it. Not >knowingly. The best > >dancers here male and female sit until they want to >dance. When the > >music is right, when there is someone to dance with. >Once this > >gentleman I know came into the milonga. He came to >get me to dance to a > >tanda. He told me that I was going to be his only >tanda of the evening > >and then he was going to leave. His reason was the >women left him > >uninspired. Maybe this sounds harsh, but this is not >unusual here. One > >night we went to 3 milongas because we as women were >uninspired. We > >were trying to find out where the men were to dance >with. We ended up > >drinking champagne in Gricel. > > > >What happens when I accept a dance with a man who is >not that good. I > >dance with him if he is a nice guy. It is not his >fault we both made a > >mistake. If he is completely undanceable, at least >for me. I have no > >choice but to end the dance. To walk off the floor >here is an insult to > >one of the parties. Usually it is a verguenza for >the man, not me. > >Here you need to earn the right to walk off the >floor. I can do it, but > >I do not like to. Not unless the man is a total >jerk, or he is hurting > >me with his horrible dancing. How do I dance with >them? I concentrate > >very hard on my balance and axis to stay upright, and >many times I have > >to look at the floor because there is no lead. Even >more so I do not > >dance close embrace if the dancer is really poor. >Then I would really > >be dragged around. If the man is from the U.S. and >used to dancing > >patterns, I have to watch his feet. I no longer live >in the U.S. and > >therefore do not know what patterns are now being >taught, so I have to > >figure out the steps before they happen. > > > >The point is that tango is tango. > > > > > > > >__________ NOD32 2404 (20070717) Information >__________ > >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >https://www.eset.com > > > > > > >for the edge of your seat? >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 19:44:21 -0600 From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... But Nina dear: It is what people have done since time immortal. Some for benevolent reasons and some out of pure ego. It does not really matter these reasons. What matters is that I dance, and that I do not forget where tango came from. It also matters what I am adding to tango for the ones who dance and will be dancing. It matters even more that I do not forget my own past. As for the comment about your knees, (no begging that part just does not work with you). Nice! >>From one idiot on the dance floor to another (yes, you miles and the other fools here as well). As many argentines have said: Shut the hell up, dance, show me what you got, you think too much. Zorrito... Am off to dance. -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:12 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... Miles, don't read this! It is totally uncivilized! I am on my knees begging forgiveness of all the well-educated, well-informed, super sensitive, delicate beings on this list who do not bother to contribute to the world of tango knowledge except when mortally offended. And I take full credit for making people like Amaury so outraged that their little voices are finally heard roaring defending the history, the great maestros, and the glorious history of tango and its rhythms! And they manage to offend most Argentines by claiming that tango is not an Argentine product! Such gorgeous idealism and ignorance makes me misty... Hey folks, in case those of you who have been dancing for a decade or two do not know, Argentine Tango is European! You go, Amaury! I am cheering you on! Nina Arrogant, abnoxious and bored-to-tears P.S. Universal art form?! I swear that these greedy foreigners just want to make my Argentine Tango their own! At 06:44 PM 7/17/2007, Amaury de Siqueira wrote: >Of all postings to this list this posting by Nina is >the most nonsensical >and offensive. > >Nina is not only arrogant but also misinformed about >the history of the >dance. Little does she know about the history of the >dance. That the >Argentines on the turn of the last century condemned >Tango (and disowning >it)and the French welcomed with open arms. That the >Tango is not an >Argentine product, but the product of fusion between >afro-Caribbean and >European rhythms. That in an era of increasing >global awareness any claims >to sole cultural ownership over any practice is silly >and infantile. > >Nina statement is a disservice to all of the great >masters. It is a >disservice to all of the hard working folks attempting >to promote tango as >an universal art form. > >Cheers, >Amaury > > >-----Original Message----- >From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu >[mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of >Clif Davis >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:21 PM >To: tango-l@mit.edu >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... > > >Ummmm, let me see how I can reply to this.... ... >B.... S.... >I can't remember where I have seen more arrogance than >on this list. >And people say people from the US are arrogant. We >have a long way to go to >catch up with this steaming pile. > >Oops, sorry, was that arrogant? >CAD3 >-----Original Message----- >From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu >[mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of >Nina Pesochinsky >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:15 PM >To: tango-l@mit.edu >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... > >Deby, > >I just want to clarify that we are not talking about >the same >things. You are talking about Brazil, Mexico, San >Francisco, i.e. >places that belong to the world. > >I am talking about the world of Argentine tango. The >world of >Argentine tango begins and ends in Argentina. If it >exits, it >becomes some other world, like the geographic world. >The geographic >world-class is too low of a standard of dancing. The >Argentine >world-class is the real thing. > >So, in terms of the world-class dancer, with the world >beginning and >ending in Argentina, no other geographic place can >produce one. > >So one can go to Argentina, into the world of tango >that is, and try >to become a world-class dancer there even if they were >not born >Argentine. And it still will not happen because of >that tiny blemish >of the wrong origin. > >The bottom line is that in order to be considered a >true world-class >dancer, one must be hailed to be so by the Argentines >themselves. And if you are not Argneitne, that will >never >happen. Argentines are fanatical nationalists. > >Warmest regards, > >Nina > > > > > > >At 05:38 PM 7/17/2007, Deby Novitz wrote: > >Nino wrote: > > > >If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class >tango > >dancer and might as well forget about it because the >world of tango, > >with all the "classy" dancing, begins and ends in >Argentina.:) This > >is an absolute. > > > > > >Well Nina, you might want to rethink what you have >written. Junior > >Cervila, he is in my opinion an excellent dancer and > >from..........Brasil. The same for Paulo Araujo. In >NYC there is Angel > >Clemente Garcia, one of the best ..... and a Mexican. > There are people > >from other places as well that are wonderful dancers. > > > >I have been dragged and pushed around the floor like >a dust mop by > >several Argentine name brands who without a >choreographed dance could > >not lead their way out of a dark cave with 1000 lit >torches. There are > >many Argentines who cannot dance gracefully or >elegantly. Sometimes I > >watch them and I cannot for the life of me figure out >what people think > >is so great about them other than they speak English, >charge lots of > >money, and are arrogant, therefore, they must be >good. > > > >Now another myth....there are not a million wonder >dancers here. It is > >all relative. When I came here in 2000 I thought >each and everyone of > >them was wonderful, incredible. I marveled at what I >thought was > >dancing to the music. Now I live and dance here and >I can tell you, > >that here is no better here than there. (Wherever >there is) There are > >maybe less than 10 men I want to dance with. Here is >the > >difference...we have more dancers, more places to >dance. So it might > >seem like there are lots more good dancers. It is >all relative. If you > >live in Iowa then San Francisco seems like Mecca. I >lived in San > >Francisco and as I commuted to Buenos Aires, San >Francisco did not seem > >much like Mecca to me. The percentages of good >dancers "should" be > >higher when there are more dancers....because there >are more dancers. > > > >Dancing with bad dancers. I don't do it. Not >knowingly. The best > >dancers here male and female sit until they want to >dance. When the > >music is right, when there is someone to dance with. >Once this > >gentleman I know came into the milonga. He came to >get me to dance to a > >tanda. He told me that I was going to be his only >tanda of the evening > >and then he was going to leave. His reason was the >women left him > >uninspired. Maybe this sounds harsh, but this is not >unusual here. One > >night we went to 3 milongas because we as women were >uninspired. We > >were trying to find out where the men were to dance >with. We ended up > >drinking champagne in Gricel. > > > >What happens when I accept a dance with a man who is >not that good. I > >dance with him if he is a nice guy. It is not his >fault we both made a > >mistake. If he is completely undanceable, at least >for me. I have no > >choice but to end the dance. To walk off the floor >here is an insult to > >one of the parties. Usually it is a verguenza for >the man, not me. > >Here you need to earn the right to walk off the >floor. I can do it, but > >I do not like to. Not unless the man is a total >jerk, or he is hurting > >me with his horrible dancing. How do I dance with >them? I concentrate > >very hard on my balance and axis to stay upright, and >many times I have > >to look at the floor because there is no lead. Even >more so I do not > >dance close embrace if the dancer is really poor. >Then I would really > >be dragged around. If the man is from the U.S. and >used to dancing > >patterns, I have to watch his feet. I no longer live >in the U.S. and > >therefore do not know what patterns are now being >taught, so I have to > >figure out the steps before they happen. > > > >The point is that tango is tango. > > > > > > > >__________ NOD32 2404 (20070717) Information >__________ > >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >https://www.eset.com > > > > > > _________Ready >for the edge of your seat? >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:11:07 -0700 From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: tango-l@mit.edu <ade549600707172011n600aca4an707fb5b244bafd74@mail.gmail.com> Hi, It seems to me that the statements below need some significant qualifiers. On 7/17/07, Amaury de Siqueira <amaurycdsf@yahoo.com> wrote: > >[...] Little does she know about the history of the dance. That the > Argentines on the turn of the last century condemned Tango (and disowning > it)and the French welcomed with open arms. That is not true on its face. A more accurate statement would be that the _wealthy_ or high society Argentines (i.e. the ones that could shape the discussion, the ones with the voice to be heard the loudest and recorded) condemned tango (before the French accepted it). This is not an insignificant detail. The working class Argentines created tango and obviously embraced and liked tango from its beginning. I don't think they were less Argentines than the upper class were. > That theTango is not an > Argentine product, but the product of fusion between afro-Caribbean and > European rhythms. Rhythm is only one of several parts of a musical form though. Even so, pre-1920 tangos borrowed the Cuban habanera rhythm pattern of dotted-eight, sixteenth, eight, eight. However this pattern was imported from the slaves in Haiti, and they were brought to Haiti from West Africa. I do not know what European rhythms are referred to here when we talk about tango (and not vals, for example), but in any case the evidence shows that any syncopated rhythm pattern (one example is the habanera pattern above) that was imported in "civilized" Europe ultimately came from West African and other black people's drum lines. In fact the theory is that the habanera pattern came as a 3-2 rhythm pattern (alternating or mixing 3-long and 2-long rhythm blocks is something common in African drum lines) which was something incomprehensible, with its implied 5/8 time signature, to western Europe. So the sailors and others distorted the 3-long block and shortened it to fit into a 2-long block, thus "straightening" the time signature into a 2/4 or 4/8 and the pattern into the habanera pattern mentioned above. The other consequence was that whenever songs had accents or notes on all three eights of the original 3-long block, this became a triplet (to fit into 2 eights). Habaneras are filled with these triplets, as were very early tangos. See even Bizet's Carmen - the famous habanera (which was really Sebastien Yradier's El Arreglito habanera that Bizet borrowed thinking it was a folk tune.) I don't think all this rhythm genealogy business makes tango less Argentine or somehow a derivative from Europe. The habanera rhythm pattern is not tango. Rhythm aside, it was Argentines who took, at first, whatever portable instruments they had, later the bandoneon and piano and violins of different sizes, and created the musical form, and it was Argentines, mostly immigrants from Italy and Spain, and others, who created the dance form in conventillos. With best regards, Konstantin Victoria, Canada Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:03:56 +0200 From: Ecsedy �ron <aron@milonga.hu> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: Tango-L <TANGO-L@MIT.EDU> A few years ago - at the time the first Campeonato Mundial was cancelled -, I posted a letter here on this list, in which I said, that the economical crisis of Argentina created an even greater urge to make tango exclusive Argentine property, and ultimately create a situation where nothing will be called "real" Argentine Tango that is not danced by an Argentine. I was attacked for that remark. I never doubted that the tango is strongly linked to Argentina. My problem was that tango would NOT be viable as a popular dance in (or at least the masters would not be limited to) Argentina anymore without the foreign tourists financing it (both tango and the economy built around tango). This is also the reason why in other countries, there is much less chance of having brilliant tango masters evolving. For example: if in Hungary we had a hundred tango dancers who'd like to (and could) _make a living_ (become professionals) on really rich foreigners visiting the country for tango, a potential master would have both the financing, the possibility and the motivation to become that master. This is the economy of tango. It does confirm that tango masters are more likely to be Argentine or at least living in Argentina (Buenos Aires to be exact), while it does take the credit away from "birthright", "sucked in with the mothermilk" theories. Also, it implies, that contemporary and especially future tango is NOT (going to be) an exclusively Argentine product. Or at least not more than Armani is an Italian product (check how many Italians wear Armani in Italy)... or (in the near future) as Nike is a Chinese product (their manufacturing is mostly located in China). Simply because it is one of the basic principles in business is to sell consumers what they want. The consumers are not Argentine, so that makes tango take a form (as it is already doing both by being over-authentic, showy or "new") the consumers want it. Aron Hodgson> But Nina dear: Hodgson> It is what people have done since time immortal. Some for benevolent reasons Hodgson> and some out of pure ego. It does not really matter these reasons. Hodgson> What matters is that I dance, and that I do not forget where tango came Hodgson> from. It also matters what I am adding to tango for the ones who dance and Hodgson> will be dancing. It matters even more that I do not forget my own past. Hodgson> As for the comment about your knees, (no begging that part just does not Hodgson> work with you). Nice! >>>From one idiot on the dance floor to another (yes, you miles and the other Hodgson> fools here as well). As many argentines have said: Shut the hell up, dance, Hodgson> show me what you got, you think too much. Hodgson> Zorrito... Hodgson> Am off to dance. Hodgson> -----Original Message----- Hodgson> From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu Hodgson> [mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Hodgson> Nina Pesochinsky Hodgson> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:12 PM Hodgson> To: tango-l@mit.edu Hodgson> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... Hodgson> Miles, don't read this! It is totally uncivilized! Hodgson> I am on my knees begging forgiveness of all the well-educated, Hodgson> well-informed, super sensitive, delicate beings on this list who do Hodgson> not bother to contribute to the world of tango knowledge except when Hodgson> mortally offended. Hodgson> And I take full credit for making people like Amaury so outraged that Hodgson> their little voices are finally heard roaring defending the history, Hodgson> the great maestros, and the glorious history of tango and its Hodgson> rhythms! And they manage to offend most Argentines by claiming that Hodgson> tango is not an Argentine product! Such gorgeous idealism and Hodgson> ignorance makes me misty... Hodgson> Hey folks, in case those of you who have been dancing for a decade or Hodgson> two do not know, Argentine Tango is European! Hodgson> You go, Amaury! I am cheering you on! Hodgson> Nina Hodgson> Arrogant, abnoxious and bored-to-tears Hodgson> P.S. Universal art form?! I swear that these greedy foreigners just Hodgson> want to make my Argentine Tango their own! Hodgson> At 06:44 PM 7/17/2007, Amaury de Siqueira wrote: >>Of all postings to this list this posting by Nina is >>the most nonsensical >>and offensive. >>Nina is not only arrogant but also misinformed about >>the history of the >>dance. Little does she know about the history of the >>dance. That the >>Argentines on the turn of the last century condemned >>Tango (and disowning >>it)and the French welcomed with open arms. That the >>Tango is not an >>Argentine product, but the product of fusion between >>afro-Caribbean and >>European rhythms. That in an era of increasing >>global awareness any claims >>to sole cultural ownership over any practice is silly >>and infantile. >>Nina statement is a disservice to all of the great >>masters. It is a >>disservice to all of the hard working folks attempting >>to promote tango as >>an universal art form. >>Cheers, >>Amaury >>-----Original Message----- >>From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu >>[mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of >>Clif Davis >>Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:21 PM >>To: tango-l@mit.edu >>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... >>Ummmm, let me see how I can reply to this.... ... >>B.... S.... >>I can't remember where I have seen more arrogance than >>on this list. >>And people say people from the US are arrogant. We >>have a long way to go to >>catch up with this steaming pile. >>Oops, sorry, was that arrogant? >>CAD3 >>-----Original Message----- >>From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu >>[mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of >>Nina Pesochinsky >>Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:15 PM >>To: tango-l@mit.edu >>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... >>Deby, >>I just want to clarify that we are not talking about >>the same >>things. You are talking about Brazil, Mexico, San >>Francisco, i.e. >>places that belong to the world. >>I am talking about the world of Argentine tango. The >>world of >>Argentine tango begins and ends in Argentina. If it >>exits, it >>becomes some other world, like the geographic world. >>The geographic >>world-class is too low of a standard of dancing. The >>Argentine >>world-class is the real thing. >>So, in terms of the world-class dancer, with the world >>beginning and >>ending in Argentina, no other geographic place can >>produce one. >>So one can go to Argentina, into the world of tango >>that is, and try >>to become a world-class dancer there even if they were >>not born >>Argentine. And it still will not happen because of >>that tiny blemish >>of the wrong origin. >>The bottom line is that in order to be considered a >>true world-class >>dancer, one must be hailed to be so by the Argentines >>themselves. And if you are not Argneitne, that will >>never >>happen. Argentines are fanatical nationalists. >>Warmest regards, >>Nina >>At 05:38 PM 7/17/2007, Deby Novitz wrote: >> >Nino wrote: >> > >> >If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class >>tango >> >dancer and might as well forget about it because the >>world of tango, >> >with all the "classy" dancing, begins and ends in >>Argentina.:) This >> >is an absolute. >> > >> > >> >Well Nina, you might want to rethink what you have >>written. Junior >> >Cervila, he is in my opinion an excellent dancer and >> >from..........Brasil. The same for Paulo Araujo. In >>NYC there is Angel >> >Clemente Garcia, one of the best ..... and a Mexican. >> There are people >> >from other places as well that are wonderful dancers. >> > >> >I have been dragged and pushed around the floor like >>a dust mop by >> >several Argentine name brands who without a >>choreographed dance could >> >not lead their way out of a dark cave with 1000 lit >>torches. There are >> >many Argentines who cannot dance gracefully or >>elegantly. Sometimes I >> >watch them and I cannot for the life of me figure out >>what people think >> >is so great about them other than they speak English, >>charge lots of >> >money, and are arrogant, therefore, they must be >>good. >> > >> >Now another myth....there are not a million wonder >>dancers here. It is >> >all relative. When I came here in 2000 I thought >>each and everyone of >> >them was wonderful, incredible. I marveled at what I >>thought was >> >dancing to the music. Now I live and dance here and >>I can tell you, >> >that here is no better here than there. (Wherever >>there is) There are >> >maybe less than 10 men I want to dance with. Here is >>the >> >difference...we have more dancers, more places to >>dance. So it might >> >seem like there are lots more good dancers. It is >>all relative. If you >> >live in Iowa then San Francisco seems like Mecca. I >>lived in San >> >Francisco and as I commuted to Buenos Aires, San >>Francisco did not seem >> >much like Mecca to me. The percentages of good >>dancers "should" be >> >higher when there are more dancers....because there >>are more dancers. >> > >> >Dancing with bad dancers. I don't do it. Not >>knowingly. The best >> >dancers here male and female sit until they want to >>dance. When the >> >music is right, when there is someone to dance with. >>Once this >> >gentleman I know came into the milonga. He came to >>get me to dance to a >> >tanda. He told me that I was going to be his only >>tanda of the evening >> >and then he was going to leave. His reason was the >>women left him >> >uninspired. Maybe this sounds harsh, but this is not >>unusual here. One >> >night we went to 3 milongas because we as women were >>uninspired. We >> >were trying to find out where the men were to dance >>with. We ended up >> >drinking champagne in Gricel. >> > >> >What happens when I accept a dance with a man who is >>not that good. I >> >dance with him if he is a nice guy. It is not his >>fault we both made a >> >mistake. If he is completely undanceable, at least >>for me. I have no >> >choice but to end the dance. To walk off the floor >>here is an insult to >> >one of the parties. Usually it is a verguenza for >>the man, not me. >> >Here you need to earn the right to walk off the >>floor. I can do it, but >> >I do not like to. Not unless the man is a total >>jerk, or he is hurting >> >me with his horrible dancing. How do I dance with >>them? I concentrate >> >very hard on my balance and axis to stay upright, and >>many times I have >> >to look at the floor because there is no lead. Even >>more so I do not >> >dance close embrace if the dancer is really poor. >>Then I would really >> >be dragged around. If the man is from the U.S. and >>used to dancing >> >patterns, I have to watch his feet. I no longer live >>in the U.S. and >> >therefore do not know what patterns are now being >>taught, so I have to >> >figure out the steps before they happen. >> > >> >The point is that tango is tango. >> > >> > >>__________ NOD32 2404 (20070717) Information >>__________ >>This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >>https://www.eset.com Hodgson> _________Ready >>for the edge of your seat? >>Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. -- Cheers, Ecsedy mailto:aron@milonga.hu Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:48:35 +0100 From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: "[Tango-L]" <tango-l@mit.edu> If this were true, then how come England are so rubbish at cricket. :) 'Mash London,UK "May we be cautious in our perfection lest we lose the ability to dance." > If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class tango > dancer and might as well forget about it because the world of tango, > with all the "classy" dancing, begins and ends in Argentina.:) This > is an absolute. Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:12 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... Miles, don't read this! It is totally uncivilized! I am on my knees begging forgiveness of all the well-educated, well-informed, super sensitive, delicate beings on this list who do not bother to contribute to the world of tango knowledge except when mortally offended. And I take full credit for making people like Amaury so outraged that their little voices are finally heard roaring defending the history, the great maestros, and the glorious history of tango and its rhythms! And they manage to offend most Argentines by claiming that tango is not an Argentine product! Such gorgeous idealism and ignorance makes me misty... Hey folks, in case those of you who have been dancing for a decade or two do not know, Argentine Tango is European! You go, Amaury! I am cheering you on! Nina Arrogant, abnoxious and bored-to-tears P.S. Universal art form?! I swear that these greedy foreigners just want to make my Argentine Tango their own! At 06:44 PM 7/17/2007, Amaury de Siqueira wrote: >Of all postings to this list this posting by Nina is >the most nonsensical >and offensive. > >Nina is not only arrogant but also misinformed about >the history of the >dance. Little does she know about the history of the >dance. That the >Argentines on the turn of the last century condemned >Tango (and disowning >it)and the French welcomed with open arms. That the >Tango is not an >Argentine product, but the product of fusion between >afro-Caribbean and >European rhythms. That in an era of increasing >global awareness any claims >to sole cultural ownership over any practice is silly >and infantile. > >Nina statement is a disservice to all of the great >masters. It is a >disservice to all of the hard working folks attempting >to promote tango as >an universal art form. > >Cheers, >Amaury > > >-----Original Message----- >From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu >[mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of >Clif Davis >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 8:21 PM >To: tango-l@mit.edu >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... > > >Ummmm, let me see how I can reply to this.... ... >B.... S.... >I can't remember where I have seen more arrogance than >on this list. >And people say people from the US are arrogant. We >have a long way to go to >catch up with this steaming pile. > >Oops, sorry, was that arrogant? >CAD3 >-----Original Message----- >From: tango-l-bounces@mit.edu >[mailto:tango-l-bounces@mit.edu] On Behalf Of >Nina Pesochinsky >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 7:15 PM >To: tango-l@mit.edu >Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... > >Deby, > >I just want to clarify that we are not talking about >the same >things. You are talking about Brazil, Mexico, San >Francisco, i.e. >places that belong to the world. > >I am talking about the world of Argentine tango. The >world of >Argentine tango begins and ends in Argentina. If it >exits, it >becomes some other world, like the geographic world. >The geographic >world-class is too low of a standard of dancing. The >Argentine >world-class is the real thing. > >So, in terms of the world-class dancer, with the world >beginning and >ending in Argentina, no other geographic place can >produce one. > >So one can go to Argentina, into the world of tango >that is, and try >to become a world-class dancer there even if they were >not born >Argentine. And it still will not happen because of >that tiny blemish >of the wrong origin. > >The bottom line is that in order to be considered a >true world-class >dancer, one must be hailed to be so by the Argentines >themselves. And if you are not Argneitne, that will >never >happen. Argentines are fanatical nationalists. > >Warmest regards, > >Nina > > > > > > >At 05:38 PM 7/17/2007, Deby Novitz wrote: > >Nino wrote: > > > >If you are not Argentine, you cannot be a world-class >tango > >dancer and might as well forget about it because the >world of tango, > >with all the "classy" dancing, begins and ends in >Argentina.:) This > >is an absolute. > > > > > >Well Nina, you might want to rethink what you have >written. Junior > >Cervila, he is in my opinion an excellent dancer and > >from..........Brasil. The same for Paulo Araujo. In >NYC there is Angel > >Clemente Garcia, one of the best ..... and a Mexican. > There are people > >from other places as well that are wonderful dancers. > > > >I have been dragged and pushed around the floor like >a dust mop by > >several Argentine name brands who without a >choreographed dance could > >not lead their way out of a dark cave with 1000 lit >torches. There are > >many Argentines who cannot dance gracefully or >elegantly. Sometimes I > >watch them and I cannot for the life of me figure out >what people think > >is so great about them other than they speak English, >charge lots of > >money, and are arrogant, therefore, they must be >good. > > > >Now another myth....there are not a million wonder >dancers here. It is > >all relative. When I came here in 2000 I thought >each and everyone of > >them was wonderful, incredible. I marveled at what I >thought was > >dancing to the music. Now I live and dance here and >I can tell you, > >that here is no better here than there. (Wherever >there is) There are > >maybe less than 10 men I want to dance with. Here is >the > >difference...we have more dancers, more places to >dance. So it might > >seem like there are lots more good dancers. It is >all relative. If you > >live in Iowa then San Francisco seems like Mecca. I >lived in San > >Francisco and as I commuted to Buenos Aires, San >Francisco did not seem > >much like Mecca to me. The percentages of good >dancers "should" be > >higher when there are more dancers....because there >are more dancers. > > > >Dancing with bad dancers. I don't do it. Not >knowingly. The best > >dancers here male and female sit until they want to >dance. When the > >music is right, when there is someone to dance with. >Once this > >gentleman I know came into the milonga. He came to >get me to dance to a > >tanda. He told me that I was going to be his only >tanda of the evening > >and then he was going to leave. His reason was the >women left him > >uninspired. Maybe this sounds harsh, but this is not >unusual here. One > >night we went to 3 milongas because we as women were >uninspired. We > >were trying to find out where the men were to dance >with. We ended up > >drinking champagne in Gricel. > > > >What happens when I accept a dance with a man who is >not that good. I > >dance with him if he is a nice guy. It is not his >fault we both made a > >mistake. If he is completely undanceable, at least >for me. I have no > >choice but to end the dance. To walk off the floor >here is an insult to > >one of the parties. Usually it is a verguenza for >the man, not me. > >Here you need to earn the right to walk off the >floor. I can do it, but > >I do not like to. Not unless the man is a total >jerk, or he is hurting > >me with his horrible dancing. How do I dance with >them? I concentrate > >very hard on my balance and axis to stay upright, and >many times I have > >to look at the floor because there is no lead. Even >more so I do not > >dance close embrace if the dancer is really poor. >Then I would really > >be dragged around. If the man is from the U.S. and >used to dancing > >patterns, I have to watch his feet. I no longer live >in the U.S. and > >therefore do not know what patterns are now being >taught, so I have to > >figure out the steps before they happen. > > > >The point is that tango is tango. > > > > > > > >__________ NOD32 2404 (20070717) Information >__________ > >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >https://www.eset.com > > > > > > _________Ready >for the edge of your seat? >Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:03:24 +1000 From: John Lowry <john@lowry.com.au> Subject: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: tango-L@mit.edu What an insightful person you are Mash, and it follows.... Why are Aussies so darn good at cricket, and rugby and Tango. Must be the water. :) John Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:48:35 +0100 From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: "[Tango-L]" <tango-l@mit.edu> If this were true, then how come England are so rubbish at cricket. :) 'Mash London,UK "May we be cautious in our perfection lest we lose the ability to dance." Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:18:09 +0100 From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... To: John Lowry <john@lowry.com.au> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu I was going to reply that it is because your women are so darn ugly, that the men spent most of their time with sports and dance... Unfortunatly I know far to well that it isn't the case. :) 'Mash London,UK "May we be cautious in our perfection lest we lose the ability to dance." On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 10:03:24PM +1000, John Lowry wrote: > > What an insightful person you are Mash, > and it follows.... > Why are Aussies so darn good at cricket, > and > rugby > and > Tango. > > Must be the water. > :) > John > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:48:35 +0100 > From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net> > Subject: Re: [Tango-L] World Class tango dancers.... > To: "[Tango-L]" <tango-l@mit.edu> > > > If this were true, then how come England are so rubbish at cricket. :) > > 'Mash > London,UK > > "May we be cautious in our perfection lest we lose the ability to > dance." > Continue to helping Argetnine Tango - clarification question \| ARTICLE INDEX