5850  Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs. "nice

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 19:48:34 -0500
From: "Brian Dunn" <brianpdunn@earthlink.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs. "nice
close embrace": what to do?
To: "'Tango-L'" <Tango-L@MIT.EDU>

"Sandhill", you wrote:

>>>

I wonder why there seems to be a disconnect between [Chicho's]
personal concept of tango and what the people
who comprise his school of dance, broadly speaking, seem
to express.
<<<
Well, you know, Picasso's students perhaps exhibited a similar failing...
but that doesn't mean Picasso is any less of a genius, he's still Picasso.
Perhaps the students Chicho inspires will someday better reflect their
master's
genius than they do now - successfully learning from a true genius can take
some time. But if the teacher is inspiring enough, the student is more
likely to keep working to improve. Don't shortchange the inspiration
factor! ;)

>>>

Tango nuevo is entirely about acrobatics from
what I can tell, not that there's anything inherently wrong
with that.
<<<
Hmmm..."Sandhill", do YOU dance (what you call) "tango nuevo" well enough to
understand it from the inside? If not, are you sure you know what it's
"entirely about"?

According to the interview, Chicho is drawing a distinction between "antique
tango" as a "violently marked" tango, as opposed to "today's" tango, whose
dancers are "able to dance without barely touching one another".

Notice he didn't say that "today's dancers" barely touch one another, he
said they are ABLE to dance that way, and (by implication) that dancers of a
more "antique" tango are UNABLE to dance that way. When you are dancing with
someone who doesn't NEED to touch you to regain their own balance, for
example, it's more likely that your partner's touch is for purely expressive
reasons having to do with your musical/emotional connection to them, as
opposed to "mechanical/logistical" purposes arising from their technique
habits.

The history of tango dance over the decades since the 1920's can be seen
from one perspective as a progressive reduction of violence and unnecessary
force in relationships between men and women (or leaders and followers, if
you prefer) in the dance. This trend will likely continue.

>>>

But Chicho hints that there is something more
about tango. What is that, and why do the people who
claim to be influenced by him seem to miss it?
<<<
See first paragraph...but you've raised another very interesting question.

I recently heard another well-traveled tango teacher (in the USA and
internationally) describe the male dancers in a certain city as generally
lacking skills in "nice close-embrace" tango, but instead typically
demonstrating what the teacher termed "violent milonguero". I was quite
struck by the expression, since I was personally aware that the teacher in
question was, comparatively speaking, in a position to know.

This observation, since corroborated by other well-traveled dancers of my
acquaintance, raises the possibility that it is not just the so-called
"nuevo" teachers who may be failing to pass on something essential about
tango to the "students who comprise their school of dance, broadly speaking"
- unless violence between partners is seen as something essential to tango.

Still, perhaps those male dancers are still learning, and will remain hungry
to learn. Perhaps we can hope those leaders will, over time, improve their
connection skills to the point where such characterizations will no longer
apply to them. My concern is that they are unaware of the relative violence
and roughness in their dance, because they believe they are apparently
meeting the observable "requirements" of their chosen "style".

The sad fact is that they are probably not getting feedback from their
followers about the relative violence of their dance.

Many followers I have talked to are in despair over the fact that many of
their local leaders have stopped improving. But from a leader's point of
view, after all, he gets an acceptable number of dances at his current skill
level. After getting all dressed up for a milonga, followers might rather
have a "violent" lead than none at all. In some way, the dilemma seems to
need a community approach, because each individual follower may have clear
incentives not to be the one to "bear the bad news".

Any ideas how to get around the dilemma?

All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
www.danceoftheheart.com
"Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time"

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 11:44:56 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs.
"nice close embrace": what to do?

I can dance in a state of Tango spiritually and with the music without a
partner. But I don't believe I'm dancing tango. Throughout history, most
humans and primates danced singularly, connected to their spirituality and
the rhythmic beat. Many Eastern and Folk dances are still danced without the
technical association of a partner. Dancing, it would seem, can be
everything from singular to multiple partner, incrementally accommodating
very distant to very close connections between the dancers. The tango dance
thrust itself upon the world unambiguously as the closest connection dance
of all. I doubt if it had been loosely danced 18 inches or 2 feet apart that
tango the dance would have raised an eyebrow and now we'd all probably need
to consult a dictionary to discover what is meant by Tango. Would it be
wrong to suggest that the closer we connect with our partner, the more we
are dancing tango? Oh dear, what is meant by close connection?

Anton

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:51:50 -0500
From: joanneprochaska@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs.
"nice close embrace": what to do?
To: brian@danceoftheheart.com, Tango-L@MIT.EDU




Many followers I have talked to are in despair over the fact that many of
heir local leaders have stopped improving. But from a leader's point of
iew, after all, he gets an acceptable number of dances at his current skill
evel. After getting all dressed up for a milonga, followers might rather
ave a "violent" lead than none at all. In some way, the dilemma seems to
eed a community approach, because each individual follower may have clear
ncentives not to be the one to "bear the bad news".
Any ideas how to get around the dilemma?



Brian,
I am so impressed that you are looking for a solution to the followers' despair. I thank you for your awareness and for your interest. This truly reflects good character on your part.
We as women and followers need to have more pride in ourselves, need to value quality rather than quantity, and need to communicate this to other women so we can all be on the same page, we can support each other and we can educate each other.
What do students do when the food at the cafeteria is soooooo bad????? If we keep eating it and not say anything, will the food get any better? NO! But if the students band together and protest, and refuse to buy more meal tickets, then the administration listens and makes changes to improve the situation.
It depends on who needs whom. In my book, women should be quite confident that if one man cannot meet her needs (give her a nice dance), then, not to worry because there is another one who can, and never go running after that first man like he was the only man at the milonga. I would rather sit all night then have bad dances. I would rather dance with a green-as-grass beginner than be manhandled by a guy who has been dancing for several years but has no quality or respect. Hey, maybe that is just me, but I am sure that there is at least one other woman reading this who is thinking "wow, how can I get that kind of confidence?"
And when the topic comes up, I am not afraid to say that I won't dance with so and so because he is clueless after several years of lessons. And when the other woman agrees that that man is leading in a disrespectful way, I say that it is ALWAYS the woman's choice. She does not have to dance with anyone she does not want to dance with. If the men hold it against her, then we might as well as be living in a police state, eh???
Teachers need to teach their women students that IT IS OK TO SAY NO, and why. If women do not uphold the standards of good dancing, then all will "go to xxxx in handbasket:", as they say.
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
www.tangocleveland.com

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 13:11:23 +1000
From: "Anton Stanley" <anton@alidas.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs.
"nice close embrace": what to do?

Joanne wrote: "She does not have to dance with anyone she does not want to
dance with. If the men hold it against her, then we might as well as be
living in a police state, eh???
Teachers need to teach their women students that IT IS OK TO SAY NO, and
why. If women do not uphold the standards of good dancing, then all will
"go to xxxx in handbasket:", as they say."


The cabeceo gives ultimate power to the woman to refuse a dance without
publicly injuring the ego or dignity of the suitor. Why is it such a
problem for Western women to practice it? Is the problem that W. Women don't
want to appear to be soliciting for a dance. Why can't they admit they want
a dance? Natural law would suggest that leaders who constantly fail to win a
dance, will either fade away, or re-engineer themselves to become more
successful. It's got that Tango feel about it don't you think?

Joanne wrote: " I would rather dance with a green-as-grass beginner than be
manhandled by a guy who has been dancing for several years but has no
quality or respect."

In my heart I agree with Joanne's sentiments. But how do I know what a woman
wants? Even though 3 years and countless lessons have ticked by since I
embarked on tango, my greatest battle still lies in understanding how each
woman wants to be embraced and led. Although I believe this to be the most
important aspect of the dance, I think I have had minimal instruction on
what is ideal. "invite and then follow"; "take me with you"; "strong lead";
"gentle lead" "gentle embrace"; "firm embrace"; "soft" "hard" etc. It
appears one size does not fit all. I have experimented to show that a
forceful embrace is welcomed during certain moves whilst totally rejected if
employed in say a normal walk or initial embrace. I feel so frustrated that
instincts that come naturally to a born dancer have to be learned by guys
like myself. When my mindset is on being sensitive and caring I'm in grave
danger of being too soft. When I adjust to being assertive I can easily fall
into manhandling. What I need is a leader to manhandle me so I know what the
boundary's are. I need someone that can make me feel what the correct
embrace should be. Maybe the beauty of tango is the process of learning the
embrace and how to deploy it during a dance.

Anton

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 23:38:36 -0500
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs.
"niceclose embrace": what to do?

Anton:
American culture and milnogas are completely different from Argentine
culture and milongas. You can't use cabeceo in a milonga that is just about
pitch black. My ballroom teacher told me that American women are taught to
wait-- and wait -- and wait. Asking a man to dance is being aggressive and
shows no class. This attitude carries over to milongas where women just
wait. On airplanes, passengers are told the nearest exit may be behind them.
At a milonga, the closest dancer may be behind or to their side, but they
don't look there, only onto the dance floor.

Based on a non random sample of woman I queried in Washington, DC and
Denver, women told me they want a firm, but gentle lead on beat, and with
confidence. My teacher told me to give the woman a firm frame and let her
decide how close to dance. React to how she holds YOU and not the other way
around.

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

Michael
I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines

----- Original Message -----

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2009 22:47:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs.
"nice close embrace": what to do?

> From: "joanneprochaska@aol.com" joanneprochaska@aol.com

> In my book, women should be quite confident that
> if one man cannot meet her needs (give her a nice dance), then, not to worry
> because there is another one who can ...>

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Joanne, I understand what you're saying and, to some extent, agree with you. But
ladies who become too choosy must be prepared to accept the consequences. In
my own community, there are a number of ladies who have developed a reputation
for being overly-critical of the men [usually after a visit to BsAs]. The result is that
no one asks them to dance anymore.

Maybe ladies need to be prepared to accept a few 'not-so-good' tandas so that they
can get a few 'good' tandas. But that's everyone's choice to make.

Jack

Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 08:55:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Sandhill Crane <grus.canadensis@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chicho interview - "Violent Milonguero" vs.
"nice close embrace": what to do?

> From: joanneprochaska@aol.com <joanneprochaska@aol.com>

> Teachers need to teach their women students that IT IS OK
> TO SAY NO, and why. If women do not uphold the
> standards of good dancing, then all will "go to xxxx in
> handbasket:", as they say.

Be careful what you wish for, as they say. The most
likely outcome is that the already-small pool of men
will dwindle even more, which leads to a pretty common
situation in the States: a small scene with high turnover,
and nobody is getting good dances.

I'm going to suggest that women could do some simple
things to encourage the men to hang in there long
enough to get better. Probably the most effective
would be to give a response that's more focused than
a simple "no": I'd like you to stand up straight,
please don't squeeze my hand so hard, let's just go
for a simple walk (i.e. don't try so many tricks),
etc etc. "No" carries very little information in it.
How is a man supposed to know what to do? Help him
out a little.

The second thing is just to talk to people (this applies
to both men and women). It's often said that tango is a
conversation and I'm convinced it works the other way as
well. Why not spend a minute or two in idle chit-chat.
The next time there's an event, people think, maybe
unconsciously, about the last one. If they have a memory
of a warm, inviting experience they're more likely to try
it again. Conversation doesn't directly improve anyone's
dance technique, but they certainly won't improve if
they don't come back.

Another consideration (I promise I'll stop here) is that
people should dance open-embrace until they know each well
enough for close embrace, even if one partner or the other
customarily dances in close embrace. In open embrace you
can be much more forgiving about technical problems.

I'm inclined to look at the big picture here. What I want
is a big tango scene with lots of experienced people.
I'm thinking, what should we do that might lead to that.