516 To Close Embrace or Not To Close Embrace
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:38:48 EDT
From: "Lydia H." <TangoLady@AOL.COM>
Subject: To Close Embrace or Not To Close Embrace
When men are clean, shaven, well bathed and perfumed we, ladies, enjoy being
held close in their arms. Unshaven ("prickly faced"), unbathed, intoxicated,
alcoholic breath is repulsive, repugnant and detrimental to women desiring to
be held in the close embrace style of Tango. We do not find this appealing
in any way, shape or form. Yes, to dance in close embrace with a clean
person is a pleasant experience.
Some men (and it is a small minority) tend to shower in the morning, work all
day and then come straight from work to dance at the Milongas with BO, bad
breath, etc. This is rude and bad MANNERS and turns women away. Therefore, I
personally choose not to dance in close embrace with anyone with such
problems. IMHO the unshaven man presents a hazard to the woman as his
"prickly face" is like a "weapon" on the delicate skin of a woman's face. I
consider this also anti-hygienic.
Unbathed men with BO are a turn off for the close embrace style of Tango. I
would like to ask other ladies out there, especially the Milongueras, how
they handle this situation and if they sacrifice taking the smell for the
dance of Tango. Or has everyone out there been so lucky as to never have had
a bad situation with odors, etc.? Am I the only one to have encountered such
a fate? :-(
Please help me understand why so many of you want to suffer (almost
suffocate), as you dance in close embrace, with some stranger that has not
taken care of his/her personal hygiene.
Pleasant, clean smelling Tangos to all.
LYDIA (Bathed, Perfumed and ready for the close embrace)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:40:19 +0200
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: To Close Embrace or Not To Close Embrace
Lydia on odors while dancing ...
On 17 Apr 2002, at 13:38, Lydia H. wrote:
> When men are clean, shaven, well bathed and perfumed we, ladies, enjoy
> being held close in their arms. Unshaven ("prickly faced"), unbathed,
> intoxicated, alcoholic breath is repulsive, repugnant and detrimental
> to women desiring to be held in the close embrace style of Tango. We
> do not find this appealing in any way, shape or form. Yes, to dance
> in close embrace with a clean person is a pleasant experience.
The same is true from the other side: As a man I enjoy to dance
close embrace with a woman bathed [don't care about shaving
<g>], unintoxicated.
But there's more: I am absolutely detracted by smoking and it's
following smells! I heard that some women smoke while sitting and
waiting to get asked for a dance, smoke to express that they are
bored and want to be asked to dance. I absolutely won't invite any
of those, not in the acute situation, but also in the further course of
the Milonga. I suppose that this problem won't be a main issue in
the northern part of the USofA., while in southern USofA it is more
present, nearly hitting the terrible situation as sometimes in the
Netherlands where women even smoke cigars in a Milonga!
I actually appreciate it very much if the organisers of the Milonga
take care that smoking is prohibited on the dance floor and it's
imediate surroundings. I accept the urge to smoke of some people,
idealy in a seperate place where there's no dancing.
And as you're pointing out on the 'bathed' part: There some "breath-
taking" women around at the Milonga who probably submerged in
their whole perfume and powder collection prior to going to a
Milonga ... for a man not pleasant to dance with at all!
> Some men (and it is a small minority) tend to shower in the morning,
> work all day and then come straight from work to dance at the Milongas
> with BO, bad breath, etc. This is rude and bad MANNERS and turns women
> away.
I would consider it also rude to imply that only man are doing that
way! IMHO there's no difference in gender - perhaps it's just
socially accepted that some woman will use even more perfume to
overcome the underlying smell.
> Therefore, I personally choose not to dance in close embrace
> with anyone with such problems. IMHO the unshaven man presents a
> hazard to the woman as his "prickly face" is like a "weapon" on the
> delicate skin of a woman's face. I consider this also anti-hygienic.
Has nothing do to with hygienics, but could be considerd as anti-
aesthetic if you want to.
> Unbathed men with BO are a turn off for the close embrace style of
> Tango. I would like to ask other ladies out there, especially the
> Milongueras, how they handle this situation and if they sacrifice
> taking the smell for the dance of Tango. Or has everyone out there
> been so lucky as to never have had a bad situation with odors, etc.?
> Am I the only one to have encountered such a fate? :-(
Sure not.
BTW - and knowing of it's explosive potential: What do you think of
eating garlic prior to a Milonga? Not at all, low-dose well, or even
high-dose? :-)
> Pleasant, clean smelling Tangos to all.
I'd more go for 'good' smelling Tango. BTW: Do you know that
anatomically those sweating glands are 'odoring' glands? [any
english-mother-tongue med on the list to give the right word?] So
sweat-smell 'per se' is not bad. :-)
> LYDIA (Bathed, Perfumed and ready for the close embrace)
Christian [bathed, if at all minimally/gently perfumed - and ready to
dance the style which fits the actual situation (well enjoying close
embrace, but not fixed to that!)]
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:38:31 -0700
From: Benjamin Koh <benkoh@STANFORD.EDU>
Subject: Re: To Close Embrace or Not To Close Embrace
Keep in mind that tango culture is different in different parts of the
world. For example, in Buenos Aires itself, smoking is (gasp!) common...
so tango travellers would do well not to bring their own prejudices and
expectations with them when they visit new places to tango.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. If you don't like how other people do
tango in the place you visit, you are welcome to walk out. It is not for
you as a guest to denounce them for allowing such horrifying (to you)
practices. Same thing goes for alcohol, non tango music etc. Take it or
leave it; it's not for you to change it. This applies for locals, too -
you can talk to the host if you have some concerns, but ultimately the
only way to get a milonga the way you want it is to host your own.
It is also a question of getting used to it. Here in the San Francisco
Bay Area nobody smokes in the milongas, and I can smell a cigarette 50
metres away, whereas when I was dancing in Berlin perhaps a quarter to a
third of the patronage at the milongas was actively smoking, and it
didn't bother me. I don't smoke, but I got used to it. It was either
that or no tango.
Likewise for alcohol - you want to tell the Germans not to drink beer or
wine at a milonga? Then you have no milonga. As someone else on the list
once mentioned, each place that adopts the tango modifies it to fit in
with existing local norms. No place will be like Buenos Aires except
Buenos Aires itself, and Buenos Aires is not carved in stone, either -
it too is changing.
Each of us has our own limits, but we should be careful not to impose
them on other people. I don't like dancing with a woman who smells of
alcohol, so I won't, but other people are welcome to dance with her -
it's not for me to tell her not to tango. Likewise for tobacco. And
likewise also for unpleasant odors, whether due to sweat or excessive
perfume. It should be pretty obvious to the offender, if nobody will
dance with him/her, that there's something not quite right in the way
he/she is presenting him/herself.
The *only* time I would play the social policeman would be when I'm the
milonga host, in which case I would make clear to all entrants that 1) I
reserve the right to refuse entry to anyone and 2) anyone may be ejected
for inappropriate conduct. And even then I'd rather let the shunning
give the offender the hint than tell him/her outright that "your
cologne/perfume is too strong". I'd definitely turn away someone who
turned up without showering after a tennis match, though...
And a last note on garlic - I like eating garlic, and can't really smell
it on my (or others') breath, but in deference to my lady friends with
whom I've spoken, I usually avoid garlic when I intend to dance later
that evening.
Benjamin
Christian Lüthen wrote:
>
> Lydia on odors while dancing ...
>
> On 17 Apr 2002, at 13:38, Lydia H. wrote:
> > When men are clean, shaven, well bathed and perfumed we, ladies, enjoy
> > being held close in their arms. Unshaven ("prickly faced"), unbathed,
> > intoxicated, alcoholic breath is repulsive, repugnant and detrimental
> > to women desiring to be held in the close embrace style of Tango. We
> > do not find this appealing in any way, shape or form. Yes, to dance
> > in close embrace with a clean person is a pleasant experience.
> The same is true from the other side: As a man I enjoy to dance
> close embrace with a woman bathed [don't care about shaving
> <g>], unintoxicated.
>
> But there's more: I am absolutely detracted by smoking and it's
> following smells! I heard that some women smoke while sitting and
> waiting to get asked for a dance, smoke to express that they are
> bored and want to be asked to dance. I absolutely won't invite any
> of those, not in the acute situation, but also in the further course of
> the Milonga. I suppose that this problem won't be a main issue in
> the northern part of the USofA., while in southern USofA it is more
> present, nearly hitting the terrible situation as sometimes in the
> Netherlands where women even smoke cigars in a Milonga!
>
> I actually appreciate it very much if the organisers of the Milonga
> take care that smoking is prohibited on the dance floor and it's
> imediate surroundings. I accept the urge to smoke of some people,
> idealy in a seperate place where there's no dancing.
>
> And as you're pointing out on the 'bathed' part: There some "breath-
> taking" women around at the Milonga who probably submerged in
> their whole perfume and powder collection prior to going to a
> Milonga ... for a man not pleasant to dance with at all!
>
> > Some men (and it is a small minority) tend to shower in the morning,
> > work all day and then come straight from work to dance at the Milongas
> > with BO, bad breath, etc. This is rude and bad MANNERS and turns women
> > away.
> I would consider it also rude to imply that only man are doing that
> way! IMHO there's no difference in gender - perhaps it's just
> socially accepted that some woman will use even more perfume to
> overcome the underlying smell.
>
> > Therefore, I personally choose not to dance in close embrace
> > with anyone with such problems. IMHO the unshaven man presents a
> > hazard to the woman as his "prickly face" is like a "weapon" on the
> > delicate skin of a woman's face. I consider this also anti-hygienic.
> Has nothing do to with hygienics, but could be considerd as anti-
> aesthetic if you want to.
>
> > Unbathed men with BO are a turn off for the close embrace style of
> > Tango. I would like to ask other ladies out there, especially the
> > Milongueras, how they handle this situation and if they sacrifice
> > taking the smell for the dance of Tango. Or has everyone out there
> > been so lucky as to never have had a bad situation with odors, etc.?
> > Am I the only one to have encountered such a fate? :-(
> Sure not.
>
> BTW - and knowing of it's explosive potential: What do you think of
> eating garlic prior to a Milonga? Not at all, low-dose well, or even
> high-dose? :-)
>
> > Pleasant, clean smelling Tangos to all.
> I'd more go for 'good' smelling Tango. BTW: Do you know that
> anatomically those sweating glands are 'odoring' glands? [any
> english-mother-tongue med on the list to give the right word?] So
> sweat-smell 'per se' is not bad. :-)
>
> > LYDIA (Bathed, Perfumed and ready for the close embrace)
> Christian [bathed, if at all minimally/gently perfumed - and ready to
> dance the style which fits the actual situation (well enjoying close
> embrace, but not fixed to that!)]
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:03:46 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <manuel@TANGO-RIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Nothing to do with: To Close Embrace or Not To Close Embrace
>Keep in mind that tango culture is different in different parts of the
>world. For example, in Buenos Aires itself, smoking is (gasp!) common.
.
>so tango travellers would do well not to bring their own prejudices and
>expectations with them when they visit new places to tango.
I agree partially with that. It's best not to our own expextations
to any place one visits. Leaving one's prejudices can be an altogether
different challenge.
>When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
That is just not acceptable. Just because the Romans smoke does not
mean that I must do it too. Same for any other activity or custom
that runs against my morals, up-bringing or prejudice.
>if you don't like how other people do
>tango in the place you visit, you are welcome to walk out.
This is good advise. Vote with your feet. If you don't like some
place or person(s), stay away from them.
>It is not for
>you as a guest to denounce them for allowing such horrifying (to you)
>practices. Same thing goes for alcohol, non tango music etc. Take it or
>leave it; it's not for you to change it.
This is not really so cut and dried. Although "denouncing" may be
inappropriate, one may certainly report what one sees and what one
likes or dislikes. No, I don't think is anyones place to try to change
others but it is certainly ones' prerogative to like or dislike whatever
one likes. Same goes for expressing ones predilection.
As far as BO, garlic breath, excessive perfume, etc. These are minor
annoyances. I would tend to agree that it's easy enough to deal with
by avoiding the offending parties. For me, the biggest turn offs
are inconsiderate dancers and bad music at milongas. Unfortunately,
neither can usually be corrected (at least not easily). I try to
not be near the more egregious offenders of dance "attacks" and generally
don't go to milongas where the music is expected to be bad.
Fastidiously groomed partners to all,
Manuel
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 15:34:07 -0700
From: Ted Crowley <tcrowley@CISCO.COM>
Subject: Re: To Close Embrace or Not To Close Embrace
> On 17 Apr 2002, at 13:38, Lydia H. wrote:
> > When men are clean, shaven, well bathed and perfumed we, ladies, enjoy
> > being held close in their arms. Unshaven ("prickly faced"), unbathed,
> > intoxicated, alcoholic breath is repulsive, repugnant and detrimental
> > to women desiring to be held in the close embrace style of Tango. We
> > do not find this appealing in any way, shape or form. Yes, to dance
> > in close embrace with a clean person is a pleasant experience.
Certainly there are obvious cases of this, and it is worthwhile to encourage
and remind everyone to shower etc. before the dance (it is bad enough that
by end of evening everyone is a bit sweaty, but if you start out very clean it
helps). But it is not accurate to say this is the only reason ladies avoid close
embrace. I think there are many other reasons in different situations:
I always fit the "clean, bathed, etc" list, but a few women seem uncomfortable
being physically close with me. Often it is someone much younger, so I assume
that I am just unattractive to them, so they don't want to be close. But many
others the same age have no discomfort being close to me, so who knows?
And I have observed some women who are only comfortable dancing close
with their boyfriend, or with regular partners they have known for a long time.
Or who are uncomfortable doing so in front of their boyfriend...or who are
uncomfortable on evenings their boyfriend is NOT there. Everyone's different.
Even a clean-cut beard like mine can be "prickly", which bothers many not
at all and others to an extreme (based on my experience in dating & kissing).
I'm luckily tall enough (6'3") that my beard won't touch most followers faces.
But I myself avoid dancing close with anyone a foot shorter than me: I find
it embarassing, and I assume it isn't pleasant for the follower to be staring
me in the chest (though teacher Chris encourages it: "lead with the tummy!").
But I think the most common reason followers avoid dancing close is trust.
Especially if doing the style of Milonguero that involves leaning weight into
each other, where if the leaders stumbles the follower feels she is falling.
If the follower doesn't know a particular leader, and they start out close
(leaning) and then he stumbles or is awkward the first few seconds, she
is likely to may move away to an open embrace. Some other followers
automatically start off apart with anyone they don't know, then after
half a song of feeling a stable lead they will move closer. As a leader
I prefer to start close, but a few (very few) followers constantly pull
me off balance (pull on my shoulder, instead of leaning towards me)
so I move to open position so I can stay balanced, which I need for
me to feel "comfortable" while dancing..
Oh, and did we mention all the followers who are new to Milonguero
so are very hesitant with it, and might only feel comfortable with a
close friend they don't mind feeling "clumsy" with?
-- Ted
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:28:34 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: To Close Embrace or Not To Close Embrace
Lydia H. wrote:
> > > When men are clean, shaven, well bathed and perfumed we, ladies, enjoy
> > > being held close in their arms.
Ted anwered:
> I always fit the "clean, bathed, etc" list, but a few women seem
uncomfortable
> being physically close with me. Often it is someone much younger, so I
assume
> that I am just unattractive to them, so they don't want to be close. But
many
> others the same age have no discomfort being close to me, so who knows?
...
> And I have observed some women who are only comfortable dancing close
> with their boyfriend, or with regular partners they have known for a long
time.
> Or who are uncomfortable doing so in front of their boyfriend...or who are
> uncomfortable on evenings their boyfriend is NOT there. ....
> But I myself avoid dancing close with anyone a foot shorter than me: I
find
> it embarassing, and I assume it isn't pleasant for the follower to be
staring
> me in the chest ...
> But I think the most common reason followers avoid dancing close is trust.
> Especially if doing the style of Milonguero that involves leaning weight
into
> each other, where if the leaders stumbles the follower feels she is
falling.
In my humble opinion, the choice to dance close or not with someone, is not
simply a problem of hygiene (ahem).
And the whole boyfriend present/absent, jealous people watching etcetc.
business aside, not dancing close may have yet another entirely different
set of reasons. The man being too tall, and the woman facing his chest with
her face instead of her chest (and her chest being somewhere near his
concave stomach) may be one of them.
Even if I find a man clean, no stubble, no smells, reasonably young,
handsome, etcetc., I may choose to keep a certain distance for the simple
reason that he is not really offering me his chest, even if he tries to pull
me closer with his arms (not good manners). It is a necessary condition for
close embrace that both partners have developped the right posture for that,
because otherwise, sorry guys, it is just not possible to get close and
follow, without being banged into the kneecaps, possibly stepped on by big
heavy feet, given a backache by him leaning on me, while moreover having him
press down on my shoulders, maybe, thus hurting my feet, which are already
in not so comfortable high heels and cannot take any extra weight, as well.
Besides, the leading won't work, because he may simply end up bending my
upper body this way and that, instead of aiming his lead at my axis (thus
yanking my back muscles, pressing down on some disc in my spine..., or, at
best, feel something like a limp octopus wrapped around my upper body).
Even if you all want to experience the Feeling with the big "F" of dancing
close embrace, there are certain, sorry, sorry, technical conditions, that
need to be met, for this to become a pleasant experience for both parties
involved. (I might still hug that man above while standing at the bar, as
long as I don't have to dance with him like that, so no insult intended)
If they are met, and the guy has his chest out, a firm lead, is NOT leaning
on me (your idea that apilado dancers will fall over if the guy stumbles, is
dreadfully misguided, and if these are the risks you offer to a lady, you
should just practise a little longer before even trying apilado), I may
naturally glide into his arms til the "click" moment, even if he is
greyhaired, fat, and slightly stubbly, and wearing glasses, as long as he is
nice.
I have found that I end up that way with a lot of tangueros who I later
observe dancing at a big distance with a number of other ladies. And I
suspect, it has to do with people's ability, to dance comfortably together
in that position.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 08:12:41 -0700
From: Tango B i t c h <latangobitch@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: To Close Embrace or Not To Close Embrace
--- "Lydia H." <TangoLady@AOL.COM> wrote:
> I would like to ask other ladies out there, especially the Milongueras, how
> they handle this situation and if they sacrifice taking the smell for the
> dance of Tango. Or has everyone out there been so lucky as to never have had
> a bad situation with odors, etc.? Am I the only one to have encountered such
> a fate? :-(
>
TangoLady:
I've been overpowered by cologne, and I can imagine that some folks with extra
sensitive noses are offended by perfume. BO also happens to women, and I've
known men to wash their forearm after a bad experience.
But it goes beyond that, I think. Each person should be considerate enough to
allow his/her partner to find a comfortable closeness due to individual
preferences, whether related to height, odor/perfume, sweat, rough facial hair,
long hair, or even sequined dresses (which can tear up a man's arm).
I always imagine that the best dancers are so in tune with their
partner-of-the-moment that these things are automatic. Something to aspire to,
I guess.
latb
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:24:41 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: To close embrace or not to close embrace
Lydia wrote:
Please help me understand why so many of you want to suffer (almost
suffocate), as you dance in close embrace, with some stranger that has not
taken care of his/her personal hygiene.
Thanks, Lydia, for writing about this sensitive subject.
In the tango, we have intimate contact with our partner. Therefore, good
grooming and personal hygiene is essential for all dancers. This certainly
applies to women as well as to men.
A milonguero of BsAs once told me that he danced with a woman from Europe.
She hadn't washed her hair, and it smelled so bad that he took her to her
table after only one dance.
Another milonguero has told me that he will not dance with women who smoke.
The smell of the smoke permeates her hair, and he doesn't want to put up
with the unpleasant smell while he's dancing. Therefore, before he will ask
someone to dance, he makes sure that she isn't a smoker. The majority of
women in the milongas of BsAs are smokers, but they refresh their perfume
often.
There is only one man in the milongas that I prefer not to dance with
because he is a smoker. He's a good dancer, but he smokes constantly. It
is difficult to enjoy a tanda with the strong smell of cigarette smoke in
his hair and clothes. If he uses cologne, it doesn't cover up the
overwhelmingly unpleasant odor.
Pichi
