3334  Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:58:45 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Manuel says: " Hard as I try to visualize it, I cannot understand how to
do the molinete only crossing back or front without the open step.... "

Orlando Paiva starts his turn to the right (for instance) from a front ocho
of the woman.
Normally she would step cross front, open, cross back... in this style she
will do cross front, cross front, cross back, cross front. The opening are
replaced by a cross front.

I realize that it is difficult to understand, I do not pretend to teach this
style on the internet, :))...but I have been with Orlando and danced that
way for a while. He has a small group of followers dancing that way in
Rosario (the second or third largest city in Argentina) where they are from.

I also paid special attention to the "problem" leading the cross vs. doing
it by default.

I think that the great preponderance of dancers do it by default. Each time
the leader walks two steps to the right of the woman she crosses unless he
prevents her from doing so .

The very few that lead the cross in Tango do it because of the special sub
style they dance.

The other "problem" I studied was the lead. I decided that to lead you must
establish a connection with your partner. This connection is achieved by the
arms, hands and the chest, some people do it by the upper abdomen rather
than the chest. The conclusion is that the more open the embrace is the
more the leader uses his arms and hands to lead, the closer the embrace the
lees he uses his arms and hands as he substitutes them with his chest or
abdomen.

I want to make clear that I am talking about excellent, elegant, dancers
that use subtle leads it does not matter of what fashion.

Those that are dogmatic about a certain way of doing something ( in my
impression ) may have a very partial view of the tango universe.

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:44:55 -0400
From: John Gleeson <johngleeson1@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Sergio says:

> Orlando Paiva starts his turn to the right (for instance) from a front ocho
> of the woman.
> Normally she would step cross front, open, cross back... in this style she
> will do cross front, cross front, cross back, cross front. The opening are
> replaced by a cross front.

Cross front, open, cross back = front ocho, open, back ocho (I believe)

If the follower executes a front ocho, say with her left foot (moving around the
leader's left - anti-clockwise) she will then be "poised" on her left foot. She
cannot then execute another front cross/ocho (in the same direction, to the left),
nor execute a back cross/ocho without a weight change (that's what the open
step accomplishes).
It appears impossible to me to execute consecutive front crosses/ochos, or even
a front then back cross without this change between the crosses/ochos. Whether
that is a "full open" or an "inplace weight change" doesn't matter - it still needs
to be taken. Right? Or am I missing something here? Maybe Daniel (L.)
could comment/clarify?

Cheers, John G.

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:21:44 -0700
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Hi Sergio and welcome back....as usual a great topic
and very complicated to.
What I see in your explanation is that the female from
a cross position enters in a right forward toward the
Right side of the man and then an other left
forward...
In a way it is a side (converted forward step).From
there she is (by the left foot)chancing way to cross
back with her right again and start the syncopation
of the giro.
Regards.
Daniel
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:

> Manuel says: " Hard as I try to visualize it, I
> cannot understand how to
> do the molinete only crossing back or front without
> the open step.... "
>
> Orlando Paiva starts his turn to the right (for
> instance) from a front ocho
> of the woman.
> Normally she would step cross front, open, cross
> back... in this style she
> will do cross front, cross front, cross back, cross
> front. The opening are
> replaced by a cross front.
>
> I realize that it is difficult to understand, I do
> not pretend to teach this
> style on the internet, :))...but I have been with
> Orlando and danced that
> way for a while. He has a small group of followers
> dancing that way in
> Rosario (the second or third largest city in
> Argentina) where they are from.
>
> I also paid special attention to the "problem"
> leading the cross vs. doing
> it by default.
>
> I think that the great preponderance of dancers do
> it by default. Each time
> the leader walks two steps to the right of the woman
> she crosses unless he
> prevents her from doing so .
>
> The very few that lead the cross in Tango do it
> because of the special sub
> style they dance.
>
> The other "problem" I studied was the lead. I
> decided that to lead you must
> establish a connection with your partner. This
> connection is achieved by the
> arms, hands and the chest, some people do it by the
> upper abdomen rather
> than the chest. The conclusion is that the more
> open the embrace is the
> more the leader uses his arms and hands to lead, the
> closer the embrace the
> lees he uses his arms and hands as he substitutes
> them with his chest or
> abdomen.
>
> I want to make clear that I am talking about
> excellent, elegant, dancers
> that use subtle leads it does not matter of what
> fashion.
>
> Those that are dogmatic about a certain way of doing
> something ( in my
> impression ) may have a very partial view of the
> tango universe.
>
>
> for advice on how to
> get there!
>
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>

Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com







Yahoo! Messenger
Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun.

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:28:53 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

I do not understand the references to impossibility in this discussion. A
Giro is forward, swivel, side, swivel, behind, side (although this last step may
be modified depending on the lead). A Molinete is forward, forward, forward,
forward, as I have always understood and done it. The main difference is in
the movement of the man's shoulders. In the Giro, he is using his shoulders
to hint (indicate, lead?) the swivels. In the Molinete, he is not doing so,
just turning his shoulders with no interruption of direction.

The only women who seem to have trouble in picking up the difference are
those who have been taught that a Giro is SSQQSS, and do that automatically
without thought - what we locally call "Giro machines" . Once they learn that
that is one, but only one, possible variant on a Giro, and that the Giro should
be led, the Molinete problem disappears. We always teach the Giro initially
as a 4 step sequence.

Once people can lead and follow that sequence, you can start varying e.g.

Clockwise forward
Anticlockwise forward

Clockwise backwards
Anticlockwise backwards
Any of the above twice round in the same direction
Once one way round, half an ocho, then once the other way round
Changing to crossed feet part way through the figure (I like that,
especially as it leads naturally to a barrida)
Coming out after two steps
Coming out into caminando par atras, or other backward moving figures
Spinning to a drag
Throw in some ganchos, leg wraps, or a boleo or two (but only with the right
partner and with the right floor conditions so as not to inconvenience other
dancers)
Any of the above with variations of speed on the steps, preferably to suit
the music. It is in this variation that we can most easily place the SSQQSS
version. Unfortunetely, many do that version as their one and only, and
automatic, giro.

That is why I am unhappy with the Giro Machine approach to teaching tango.
It leaves one with one possibility out of at least 12 listed above just for
starters. If you think that Tango is a conversation between two bodies,
without words, then the automatic Giro machine has a vocabulary of only one phrase.
That really restricts the conversation.

Laurence

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:42:36 -0400
From: John Gleeson <johngleeson1@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Ahh, but then thinking further about it, a follower could do
a forward ocho on one foot, then a forward on the
other foot, etc, etc. A sequence that I believe the ballroom
world calls "swivels". ??

John G.



----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Molinetes without opening step, etc.

> Sergio says:
>
>> Orlando Paiva starts his turn to the right (for instance) from a front ocho
>> of the woman.
>> Normally she would step cross front, open, cross back... in this style she
>> will do cross front, cross front, cross back, cross front. The opening are
>> replaced by a cross front.
>
> Cross front, open, cross back = front ocho, open, back ocho (I believe)
>
> If the follower executes a front ocho, say with her left foot (moving around the
> leader's left - anti-clockwise) she will then be "poised" on her left foot. She
> cannot then execute another front cross/ocho (in the same direction, to the left),
> nor execute a back cross/ocho without a weight change (that's what the open
> step accomplishes).
> It appears impossible to me to execute consecutive front crosses/ochos, or even
> a front then back cross without this change between the crosses/ochos. Whether
> that is a "full open" or an "inplace weight change" doesn't matter - it still needs
> to be taken. Right? Or am I missing something here? Maybe Daniel (L.)
> could comment/clarify?
>
> Cheers, John G.
>
>

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:48:09 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

I've seen Orlando Paiva dance once. Not sure whether I could say that
he is more elegante or just as elegante as other dancers.


Front-Front

I can imagine a follower walking forward around the leader as many
steps as she wants, but I wouldn't call this a special "figure" nor a
turn, Maybe I would think of that as a sort of arc across the floor.

If I understand the front-front: she walks front (crossing hip & leg
between her and the man), then front (crossing hip & leg away from the
man). From the nuevo analysis, this would be considered a front - side.
So maybe it is a modification of the turn/molinete...

I can think of a couple other examples of front-front movements:

- Two successive front ochos, changing direction of the turn.
- The follower's cross is simply a front, often followed by a front
ocho


Front-Back or Back-Front

This is a movement typical of the chain-step.

Other examples of back-front would be
- rock-step,
- rock-step with a pivot.



On Apr 4, 2005, at 9:44 AM, John Gleeson wrote:

> Sergio says:
>
>> Orlando Paiva starts his turn to the right (for instance) from a
>> front ocho
>> of the woman.
>> Normally she would step cross front, open, cross back... in this
>> style she
>> will do cross front, cross front, cross back, cross front. The
>> opening are
>> replaced by a cross front.
>
> Cross front, open, cross back = front ocho, open, back ocho (I
> believe)
>
> If the follower executes a front ocho, say with her left foot
> (moving around the
> leader's left - anti-clockwise) she will then be "poised" on her
> left foot. She
> cannot then execute another front cross/ocho (in the same
> direction, to the left),
> nor execute a back cross/ocho without a weight change (that's what
> the open
> step accomplishes).
> It appears impossible to me to execute consecutive front
> crosses/ochos, or even
> a front then back cross without this change between the
> crosses/ochos.

Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:29:50 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Hi John,

Thanks for posting your comments. This is exactly what I'm talking about. I
still cannot understand how a woman can move around the man in a giro
without the "open" step between the crosses. Sure, she could do an
open,front cross, open, front cross (or open, back cross, etc.), ad
ifinitum. Otherwise she's just walking forward or backwards around the
man..... I guess she could do some ochos as she walks, but she cannot do a
molinete (grapevine) without side (open) steps.

Here is for instance what I imagine: the woman takes a back cross to her
right to start her turn... She's now finished that step and she's on her
left foot. If she pivots on that foot to do another back cross, she'll be
going back to where she started, likewise if she does a front ocho unless
her partner overturns her 180 degrees and he must release the embrace for
her to turn that much!!
I would say try travelling sideways while performing consecutive crosses....
I could not do it.... I think I'm either missing some key piece of
information or we are all talkking about completely different things.

>From: John Gleeson <johngleeson1@VERIZON.NET>

> Cross front, open, cross back = front ocho, open, back ocho (I believe)
>
> If the follower executes a front ocho, say with her left foot (moving
>around the
> leader's left - anti-clockwise) she will then be "poised" on her left
>foot. She
> cannot then execute another front cross/ocho (in the same direction, to
>the left),
> nor execute a back cross/ocho without a weight change (that's what the
>open
> step accomplishes).
> It appears impossible to me to execute consecutive front crosses/ochos,
>or even
> a front then back cross without this change between the crosses/ochos.
>Whether
> that is a "full open" or an "inplace weight change" doesn't matter - it
>still needs
> to be taken. Right? Or am I missing something here? Maybe Daniel (L.)
> could comment/clarify?
>
>Cheers, John G.
>

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:40:48 -0400
From: Richard deSousa <mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Overturned ochos would also work.

el bandito de tango


-----Original Message-----

Sent: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:42:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Ahh, but then thinking further about it, a follower could do
a forward ocho on one foot, then a forward on the
other foot, etc, etc. A sequence that I believe the ballroom
world calls "swivels". ??

John G.


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Gleeson" <johngleeson1@VERIZON.NET>
To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Molinetes without opening step, etc.

> Sergio says:
>
>> Orlando Paiva starts his turn to the right (for instance) from a
front ocho
>> of the woman.
>> Normally she would step cross front, open, cross back... in this
style she
>> will do cross front, cross front, cross back, cross front. The
opening are
>> replaced by a cross front.
>
> Cross front, open, cross back = front ocho, open, back ocho (I
believe)
>
> If the follower executes a front ocho, say with her left foot
(moving around the
> leader's left - anti-clockwise) she will then be "poised" on her
left foot. She
> cannot then execute another front cross/ocho (in the same direction,
to the left),
> nor execute a back cross/ocho without a weight change (that's what
the open
> step accomplishes).
> It appears impossible to me to execute consecutive front
crosses/ochos, or even
> a front then back cross without this change between the
crosses/ochos. Whether
> that is a "full open" or an "inplace weight change" doesn't matter -
it still needs
> to be taken. Right? Or am I missing something here? Maybe Daniel
(L.)
> could comment/clarify?
>
> Cheers, John G.
>
>
to
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>


send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:40:38 +0200
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

This is an interesting discussion since until now I've seen several variants
for the giro/molinete/grapevine combination.

There are people (mostly milongueros) who insist on the syncopation (thus
not all steps are equal in rythm...).
There are people who believe the rythm is led,
There are people who consider it assimetrical: a "u" step (back, side,
forward), a pivot, sidestep, pivot //then repeat from beginning...
There are people who consider it a square (referring to the 'pivot points'),
side, pivot, back, pivot, side, pivot, front, pivot...
There are people who call the entire sequence "giro",
There are people who call only the > step, pivot, step < parts "giro",
There are people who call the entire sequence a "molinete",
There are people who say that each one step of the sequence is led,
There are people who say the steps are automatic,
There are people who say the directions of the pivot are led only through
the position of the man (the position defines whether front/back
(left/right) pivot (cross) is easier for the women to do)

And maybe there are others I've never heard of...

Cheers,
Aron



Ecsedy Áron
Aron ECSEDY

Tel: +36 (20) 329 66 99
ICQ# 46386265
https://www.milonga.hu/

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:48:39 -0400
From: Richard deSousa <mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Ahh... never mind... I forgot the steps were front, front, back, back
or back, back, front, front. If it were front, back, front, back,
overturned ochos would work if the leader changed his partner's weight.




-----Original Message-----

Sent: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:40:48 -0400
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Overturned ochos would also work.

el bandito de tango

-----Original Message-----
From: John Gleeson <johngleeson1@VERIZON.NET>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Sent: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:42:36 -0400
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Ahh, but then thinking further about it, a follower could do
a forward ocho on one foot, then a forward on the
other foot, etc, etc. A sequence that I believe the ballroom
world calls "swivels". ??

John G.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Gleeson" <johngleeson1@VERIZON.NET>
To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:44 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Molinetes without opening step, etc.

> Sergio says:
>
>> Orlando Paiva starts his turn to the right (for instance) from a
front ocho
>> of the woman.
>> Normally she would step cross front, open, cross back... in this
style she
>> will do cross front, cross front, cross back, cross front. The
opening are
>> replaced by a cross front.
>
> Cross front, open, cross back = front ocho, open, back ocho (I
believe)
>
> If the follower executes a front ocho, say with her left foot
(moving around the
> leader's left - anti-clockwise) she will then be "poised" on her
left foot. She
> cannot then execute another front cross/ocho (in the same direction,
to the left),
> nor execute a back cross/ocho without a weight change (that's what
the open
> step accomplishes).
> It appears impossible to me to execute consecutive front
crosses/ochos, or even
> a front then back cross without this change between the
crosses/ochos. Whether
> that is a "full open" or an "inplace weight change" doesn't matter -
it still needs
> to be taken. Right? Or am I missing something here? Maybe Daniel
(L.)
> could comment/clarify?
>
> Cheers, John G.
>
>

to
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>

>


send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.




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Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:13:06 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Molinetes without opening step, etc.

Orlando Paiva has a tape with Susana where you can see his style and
figures. 415-453-5275, www.tangobar-productions.com .
But there is even better tape: Gabriela Lopez y Diego Ladeveze, Orlando's
students. You can find their site on the net. Majestic couple! Thanks to
their youth, perfection, athletic backgound, and long legs you can see all
the details of Orlando Paiva's salon style in every detail including the
fabulous side step transformed into the front one. Not only in molinete,
they do it for 4th in 8-count. Orlando dances in the very upright position,
Gabriela and Diego do in a more showy style and they can transform it
further to tango nuevo.
That is what I know about it, I should try!

Igor Polk

Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:43:42 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Molinetes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Well Miles, because here in Buenos Aires we call them giros...not
molinetes. The teachers here teach 3 steps - caminata, giros, ochos.


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Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:27:27 -0400
From: lgmoseley@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Molinetes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I had understood that

1. A giro used the basic combination of forward-side-behind-side, although not always in that order. For example, you can have side-behind-side-forward, and so on. The important point is that on the behind step the lady swivels away from the man, and if necessary the man will lead just that

2. By contrast, the molinete involves the lady in walking round the man with no such swivel away from the man i.e. forward-forward-forward-forward, albeit on a circular track. It certainly feels like a pepper mill in action, which fits with the name.

Both can be done at a variety of speeds and with a variety of rhythms.

Is that just a local distinction which we draw here in the Forest, or is it a widely shared one? They are clearly very different figures and have very different characters and 'feels'.

Brazos

Laurence Moseley

-----Original Message-----
From: dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 4.43PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Molinetes

Well Miles, because here in Buenos Aires we call them giros...not

molinetes. The teachers here teach 3 steps - caminata, giros, ochos.





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Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:12:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Molinetes
To: tango-l@mit.edu

I think the "jury is out" on this distinction. I have recently adopted the following distinction which works when I talk with those I practice with.

I use term "molinete" to describe the sequence where the man rotates and the woman "circles," and "giro" for the sequence where both the man and the woman "circle."

In case of a "molinete," the common axes of rotation usually coincides with man's stationary leg and that side of his body (right side if the molinete is on his left, and left if it is on his right); although, it may move from his right to his left depending on sort of movement he makes with his "free" leg and how close the woman is "circling.".

In case of a "giro," the common axes of rotation is between the two and they both circle around it. Both partners circle in the same direction, although the distance between them may very quite a bit at different point of rotation..

In both cases, "circling" is done using some form of "grapevine" (back-side-forward-side) sequence. In case of a giro, both can use the same sequence in the same time or they may use it in "out-of-phase" fashion.

(I use term "man" for the partner who initiates the sequence and
"woman" for the partner who chooses to respond, so these roles can
dynamically change at just about any time.)

Of course, there are numerous variations on the theme and various combinations of the two which makes the whole thing so rich and open to creativity.

...dubravko

===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================

----- Original Message ----

Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:27:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Molinetes

I had understood that

1. A giro used the basic combination of forward-side-behind-side, although not always in that order. For example, you can have side-behind-side-forward, and so on. The important point is that on the behind step the lady swivels away from the man, and if necessary the man will lead just that

2. By contrast, the molinete involves the lady in walking round the man with no such swivel away from the man i.e. forward-forward-forward-forward, albeit on a circular track. It certainly feels like a pepper mill in action, which fits with the name.

Both can be done at a variety of speeds and with a variety of rhythms.

Is that just a local distinction which we draw here in the Forest, or is it a widely shared one? They are clearly very different figures and have very different characters and 'feels'.

Brazos

Laurence Moseley

-----Original Message-----
From: dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 4.43PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Molinetes

Well Miles, because here in Buenos Aires we call them giros...not

molinetes. The teachers here teach 3 steps - caminata, giros, ochos.





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Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 19:59:17 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Molinetes
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Anybody have any historical info on how these terms developed?

I had understood that molinete was a term coined in USA to refer to the woman's grapevine steps around the man, and that the giro was the term used to refer to the man turning on his axis to accommodate her going around him.

I had further heard that giro was the term used in BsAs, and that the term molinete was not used there.Any light to shed on the confusion?

J
www.TangoMoments.com

> To: tango-l@mit.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 15:27:27 -0400> From: lgmoseley@aol.com> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Molinetes> > I had understood that > > 1. A giro used the basic combination of forward-side-behind-side, although not always in that order. For example, you can have side-behind-side-forward, and so on. The important point is that on the behind step the lady swivels away from the man, and if necessary the man will lead just that> > 2. By contrast, the molinete involves the lady in walking round the man with no such swivel away from the man i.e. forward-forward-forward-forward, albeit on a circular track. It certainly feels like a pepper mill in action, which fits with the name.> > Both can be done at a variety of speeds and with a variety of rhythms.> > Is that just a local distinction which we draw here in the Forest, or is it a widely shared one? They are clearly very different figures and have very different characters and 'feels'.> > Brazos> > Laurence Moseley> >!

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Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2007 08:40:08 +1100
From: "Tango Tango" <tangotangotango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Molinetes
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<9fb1555a0703161440r15d8e002wf8ce12be58b64993@mail.gmail.com>

'Molinete' is the term Americans use for a turn. Americans trained by
Americans think this is the Argentinean term for a turn.

All Argentineans say 'giro' unless they are teachers who are used to working
with Americans and may use the term when they are speaking to them.

Neil

On 3/16/07, Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I think the "jury is out" on this distinction. I have recently adopted the
> following distinction which works when I talk with those I practice with.
>
> I use term "molinete" to describe the sequence where the man rotates and
> the woman "circles," and "giro" for the sequence where both the man and the
> woman "circle."
>
> In case of a "molinete," the common axes of rotation usually coincides
> with man's stationary leg and that side of his body (right side if the
> molinete is on his left, and left if it is on his right); although, it may
> move from his right to his left depending on sort of movement he makes with
> his "free" leg and how close the woman is "circling.".
>
> In case of a "giro," the common axes of rotation is between the two and
> they both circle around it. Both partners circle in the same direction,
> although the distance between them may very quite a bit at different point
> of rotation..
>
> In both cases, "circling" is done using some form of "grapevine"
> (back-side-forward-side) sequence. In case of a giro, both can use the same
> sequence in the same time or they may use it in "out-of-phase" fashion.
>
> (I use term "man" for the partner who initiates the sequence and
> "woman" for the partner who chooses to respond, so these roles can
> dynamically change at just about any time.)
>
> Of course, there are numerous variations on the theme and various
> combinations of the two which makes the whole thing so rich and open to
> creativity.
>
> ...dubravko
>
> ===================================
> seek, appreciate, and create beauty
> this life is not a rehearsal
> ===================================
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "lgmoseley@aol.com" <lgmoseley@aol.com>
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:27:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Molinetes
>
> I had understood that
>
> 1. A giro used the basic combination of forward-side-behind-side, although
> not always in that order. For example, you can have
> side-behind-side-forward, and so on. The important point is that on the
> behind step the lady swivels away from the man, and if necessary the man
> will lead just that
>
> 2. By contrast, the molinete involves the lady in walking round the man
> with no such swivel away from the man i.e.
> forward-forward-forward-forward, albeit on a circular track. It certainly
> feels like a pepper mill in action, which fits with the name.
>
> Both can be done at a variety of speeds and with a variety of rhythms.
>
> Is that just a local distinction which we draw here in the Forest, or is
> it a widely shared one? They are clearly very different figures and have
> very different characters and 'feels'.
>
> Brazos
>
> Laurence Moseley
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Sent: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 4.43PM
> Subject: [Tango-L] Molinetes
>
> Well Miles, because here in Buenos Aires we call them giros...not
>
> molinetes. The teachers here teach 3 steps - caminata, giros, ochos.
>
>
>
>
>
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