1796  Teaching Tango Lead- Presumptions

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:41:33 EDT
From: AHGberg@AOL.COM
Subject: Teaching Tango Lead- Presumptions

Hi Listeros:

There seems to be a quiet acquiesence of the comment amidst the important
list of things that some posters take for granted. It pertains to the connection
between partners. The techniques espoused seem to be diverse.

I wish to observe that all Tango is not taught "keeping the women follower's
shoulders parallel with the leader's/ man's shoulders.

I have been taught and have been successfully teaching and dancing Argentine
Tango where the torso-contact the man makes with the lady is with his
right chest. That right chest of the man should make contact with the ladys'
sternum or the line of her sternum. This is quite different from the close
contact parallel position that I read about, often see taught, and occasionally
encounter on the dance floor. In the Argentine Tango that I dance and teach,
the left shoulder of the man is farther apart from the ladys right shoulder
while the other shoulder(s) (lady's left and man's right) are frequently much
closer to each other. For this reason you will see that the the
cheek-to-cheek intimate contact is the man's right cheek to the lady's left cheek and they
both often look in the same direction rather than over each others right
shoulders.

Of course I must acknowledge that I see quite a variety of "mixtures" of
holds and I often see the parallelinity in the closer (some call it Milonguero
Style) danced on the crowded dance floors of the Buenos Aires Milongas as well
as here in the USA. It is a simple matter for a lady to hold her body
tightly against her partner's body and it seems with this proximity to avoid the
necessity of the positioning of the lady's hands and arms in any strict hold.
In this system or style of Tango, good body-lead/follow is essential.

Within our circles of Argentine Tango we have discussed and debated and
compared the diverse multi methods of hold, connection, lead, follow, methods of
choreographic organization and interpretation (often called floor craft or
navigation) space versus no space, parallelinity versus nonparellelinity, etc etc
until the wee hours of the morning. We always wind up in an impasse when
someone starts using the "term" AUTHENTIC. It is quite interesting when we all
meet again , we mix and match styles at our local milongas and successfully
enjoy the diversity of the Tango techniques. Sooner or later you must put aside
"theory" and get out on the dance floor. The proof is after all out there
on the dance floor in the practical application with a partner; not in theory
and discussion. I have yet to see anyone, even the articulate contributors on
this list, to successfully reconcile all the different styles around the
country and around the world.

Sincerely,
Arturo
West Palm Beach, Florida, USA

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:25:25 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Teaching Tango Lead- Presumptions

AHGberg@AOL.COM writes:

> I wish to observe that all Tango is not taught "keeping the women
> follower's shoulders parallel with the leader's/ man's shoulders.
>
> I have been taught and have been successfully teaching and dancing
> Argentine Tango where the torso-contact the man makes with the lady
> is with his right chest. That right chest of the man should make
> contact with the ladys' sternum or the line of her sternum. This is
> quite different from the close contact parallel position that I read
> about, often see taught, and occasionally encounter on the dance
> floor. In the Argentine Tango that I dance and teach, the left
> shoulder of the man is farther apart from the ladys right shoulder
> while the other shoulder(s) (lady's left and man's right) are
> frequently much closer to each other. For this reason you will see
> that the the cheek-to-cheek intimate contact is the man's right
> cheek to the lady's left cheek and they both often look in the same
> direction rather than over each others right shoulders.

Presuming I'm interpreting this accurately, this would match the more
offset hold that I see very occasionally. As well as a style where
the partner's are in directly in front of each other, but not parallel
to one another.

Christine Denniston makes a comment about that at the bottom of this
page: <https://www.history-of-tango.com/tango-renaissance.html>. The
comment is that while dancing with people who learned during the
golden age, she almost never found people who danced in any hold other
than a parallel, right in front of each other, hold. More
controversially, she suggests that some of the other close holds are
about distancing the partners.

Is she right? Are these offset holds where the woman is off to the
man's right side largely a modern invention? What advantages do they
have?

Whenever I've danced in that kind of hold I've felt something of that
emotional separation that Christine mentions---in most cases I'd have
preferred to dance in open hold, but parallel. However, I was taught
mostly by Christine or people she's taught, so it's quite possible
that I'm missing the point of these offset holds.

[...]

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:28:20 -0700
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching Tango Lead- Presumptions

Both Trini and Brian made very good points -- Trini stressed that both
partners should relax, and mentioned Alexander technique, which has helped
us a lot. I love to dance with partners who are relaxed and allow me to
relax -- we both dance better; the rigidity of some leaders is not conducive
to great tango. This illustrates the ritght brain/left brain concept. As you
all know by now I am a mostly left-brain person, which works well for
teaching, but when dancing the right brain usually takes over, except when
dancing with a tense partner.

Brian and Sergio's comments about the leader indicating the size of the
follower's side step 2 are right on. I didn't mention that before because it
seemed too detailed, but the sideways motion of the man's chest in the
lead/follow/follow should control the length of the follower's step.

Following up on a couple of comments regarding parallel bodies and
followers' posture:
We have been taught that both partners should strive for parallel upper
bodies, i.e. shoulders, chest. All of our teachers are, or were,
salon-style, dancers, and mostly old-timers, except of course, Graciela and
Florencia. Sometimes absolute parallel is not possible, as in ochos and
turns, but the follower should do the best she can. In giros, it is
important for the leader to keep turning his torso until he wants to come
out of the turn. Lots of leaders don't do this, but keep their body straight
forward while expecting the follower to keep turning, by leading with their
hands rather than their chest. Most experienced followers can handle this,
but we don't like it much ;-)

The first time we encountered true social tango was in BsAs in 1987, when we
met Fino and Teresa Ribera. They danced, as have all of our other maestros,
with their heads up but eyes slightly down, looking at their clasped hands.
This feels very intimate but not as distracting as trying to look into each
other's eyes, and allows full concentration on one's partner and the music.
No one we know has ever recommended dancing with the head down, although
some of us do it from time to time.

The offset position of some close embrace styles with the woman's head over
the man's right shoulder is very parallel but doesn't work for the
vertically impaired. I for example do not enjoy dancing with my nose in my
partner's armpit, and when dancing with someone more my size I feel kind of
isolated when i look over his shoulder. The idea that this position is more
intimate than a close embrace with both looking in the same direction has
always been puzzling to me. But, as Daisy said to Gatsby, that's only
personal. The wedge-shaped frame is often used for certain figures in
salon-style, but in my experience it is best to keep trying to get back to
parallel as soon as possible.

Abrazos to all,
Barbara

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:48:04 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Teaching Tango Lead- Presumptions

Barbara Garvey writes:

> The offset position of some close embrace styles with the
> woman's head over the man's right shoulder [...] I feel
> kind of isolated when i look over his shoulder.

My sentiments exactly.

> The idea that this position is more intimate than a close
> embrace with both looking in the same direction has always
> been puzzling to me.

Thank you, Barbara.

Dancing with the woman's head over the man's right
shoulder does have its own logistical advantages, and
I dance that way a lot, but contrary to what some would
have you believe, it is *not* the most intimate tango.
Unless one's idea of intimacy is strictly from the neck
down.

Huck

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:49:43 -0500
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Teaching Tango Lead- Presumptions

Hello Arturo and list,



Arturo wrote <<<<<<I have been taught and have been successfully
teaching and dancing Argentine Tango where the torso-contact the man
makes with the lady is with his right chest. That right chest of the
man should make contact with the ladys' sternum or the line of her
sternum. This is quite different from the close contact parallel
position that I read about, often see taught, and occasionally encounter
on the dance floor. In the Argentine Tango that I dance and teach, the
left shoulder of the man is farther apart from the ladys right shoulder
while the other shoulder(s) (lady's left and man's right) are
frequently much closer to each other. For this reason you will see that
the the cheek-to-cheek intimate contact is the man's right cheek to the
lady's left cheek and they both often look in the same direction rather
than over each others right shoulders.>>>>>>>>>





Yes, there are an infinite number of styles of tango, and the connection
of which you speak, with follower slightly to the right of leader, is a
very valid and common form of Argentine Tango technique. It should not
be referred to as "not authentic". I generally refer to this embrace as
"salon tango", and I recognize it as a beautiful style of "Authentic
Argentine Tango".



I generally dance milonguero, or apilado; close embrace with my follower
centered on my chest. It is just the style I prefer. When I have a
follower who doesn't acquiesce, I can dance this salon embrace also, and
have fun doing it.



BUT, AND I MUST SPEAK OUT HERE, where I must take exception to your
position, is when you talk about the partners looking in the same
direction, with leader's right cheek against follower's left. IMHO, this
position, whether in close-embrace, milonguero, apilado, nuevo, whatever
you want to call any style of tango, is unnatural and uncomfortable. I
would rather have almost no contact, or only the very slightest,
incidental, sweet touch of cheek to cheek. But when she turns her head
to my left it feels awful, I can't see where I'm going, makes my neck
hurt, and destroys my opportunities for creativity. I don't care whether
it's "authentic" or not; it's just plain irritating.



So yeah, sure, dance and teach salon if you wish, but please encourage a
natural "head up" attitude on the part of both partners.



Just my pennies worth!



Michael from Texas