2064 Versions: tango vs. milonga, same composition
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:25:24 -0800
From: Kos Zahariev <Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA>
Subject: Versions: tango vs. milonga, same composition
On the subject of different versions of the same composition..
If you listen to Banda Municipal de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires from 1908, it is
interesting to hear tangos played, as they were, in the high 70s BPM
(beats-per-minute) - almost like the slow milongas of Canaro except still
slower just a little bit (Canaro's are low 80s). I guess then you see how a
milonga is just a sped-up version of a tango with a characteristic milonga
beat pattern (or vice-versa - a tango is a slowed-down milonga with a tango
beat pattern).
Here are a few examples of the same composition that survived into the 1930s
and 1940s and beyond both as a tango and as a milonga arrangement. For
whatever conspiratorial reason, they all start with "El..":
El Apache Argentino, as
a tango by Francini-Pontier,
a milonga by Racciatti.
El Apronte, as
a tango by D'Arienzo,
a milonga by Firpo (I suppose Firpo's was intended to be a tango, but
it is very hard to see it with a milonga beat and being as fast as Canaro's
slow milongas at 82 BPM).
El Cabure, as
a tango by Di Sarli,
a milonga by Racciatti.
El Lloron, as
a tango by Cambareri,
a milonga by Canaro or Firpo (incidentally this is the only
composition whose milonga version is nothing more than a sped-up tango - no
changes in beat pattern).
El Otario, as
a tango by Canaro,
a milonga by De Angelis.
El Portenito, as
a tango by D'Arienzo or Orquesta Tpica Victor,
a milonga by D'Agostino.
All of these are very interesting to listen to and even harder to recognise if
you don't have them playing one after the other.
El Búlgaro
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:34:06 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRY.COM.AU>
Subject: Versions: tango vs. milonga, same composition
>Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 16:25:24 -0800
>From: Kos Zahariev <Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA>
>On the subject of different versions of the same composition..
>El Apronte, as a milonga by Firpo (I suppose Firpo's was intended to be a
tango, but >it is very hard to see it with a milonga beat and being as fast
as Canaro's slow milongas at 82 BPM).
>El Lloron, as a milonga by Canaro or Firpo (incidentally this is the only
composition whose milonga version is nothing more than a sped-up tango - no
changes in beat pattern).
How do you define Milonga v Tango? I am not a musician, but i would only
dance Tango (Canyengue / old style) to Firpo's El Apronte or Canaro's El
Lloron. Great fun! On the other hand Canaro's Se Dice De Mi is very
definitely milonga. At that age and speed there is not a lot between the
dances, but they have a very different feel.
JL
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 17:33:10 -0800
From: Kos Zahariev <Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Versions: tango vs. milonga, same composition
>How do you define Milonga v Tango? I am not a musician, but i would only
>dance Tango (Canyengue / old style) to Firpo's El Apronte or Canaro's El
>Lloron. Great fun! On the other hand Canaro's Se Dice De Mi is very
>definitely milonga. At that age and speed there is not a lot between the
>dances, but they have a very different feel.
>
>JL
Canaro's El Lloron in particular was listed as a milonga on one of my
CDs. Like I said it is really just a sped-up tango but you can dance it as a
milonga too. Your suggestion of dancing Canyengue to it might be the best.
There is no need for a strict all-encompassing definition of tango
vs. milonga, I suppose, but there are some characteristic beat patterns and
tempos that match in most cases the feel of a milonga and/or a tango
with the commonly known labelling of a particular piece as such.
El Búlgaro
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:31:16 -0500
From: Rick McGarrey <RICKMCG@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Tango vs. milonga
John Lowry writes:
'How do you define tango v milonga?'
This is a very basic (and good) question. Where are
all the tango instructors on the list when we need
them? I'll probably regret answering this- but here
goes anyway. Tango has one beat between the pulses.
You can, and should on occasion, step on both. Vals
has two beats between the pulses. You can step on
ONLY the first of the two beats between the main
pulse. These rules never ever vary.
Milonga is not faster than tango or vals, as some
people think. Since I never dance milonga, I haven't
thought about this much, but it looks to me like
milonga is the anti-vals. If you take vals time with
the two beats between the pulse, and remove the first
one, you have milonga time. You can ignore this
remaining beat, and step only on the main pulse, and
dance a great milonga. But if you want, you can hit
this beat. Since this beat comes just before the main
pulse of the music, the step feels like a trip, or
a 'traspie', as you catch yourself quickly on the main
pulse.
There's really no opinion here. It's math, and it's
either right or wrong. If you know the answer, please
go for it.
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:03:15 -0400
From: Keith Elshaw <keith@TOTANGO.NET>
Subject: Tango vs. milonga
The time signature of tango is 4/4 (4 beats per bar or measure). Milonga is
2/4. Vals is 3/4 or 6/8.
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:31:21 -0800
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango vs. milonga
Milonga is the precursor of Tango these were originally written in a 2 x 4
notation and changed to 4 x 8. The piano scores left from early tangos and
milongas proved this point. Biagi, D'Arienzo, Malerba, kept playing tango
music in the 2 x 4 notation. The tangos played on a 2 x 4 seemed to be
faster because there are twice as many notes than those played in 4 x 8.
Milonga and Tango vals are compatible when one dances milonga with the
traspie ( 1, 2, 3)-- the traspie is third beat required in the tango vals.
My two cents,
Bruno
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:48:32 -0500
From: John Gleeson <jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango vs. milonga
Rick states:
> This is a very basic (and good) question. Where are
> all the tango instructors on the list when we need
> them? I'll probably regret answering this- but here
> goes anyway. Tango has one beat between the pulses.
> You can, and should on occasion, step on both. Vals
> has two beats between the pulses. You can step on
> ONLY the first of the two beats between the main
> pulse. These rules never ever vary.
The real question is "where are the musicians"?
The above is total garbage (what are "pulses"
anyway?)
Tango is played in 4/.4 time (with maybe a few exceptions)
= 4 beats to the measure. The basic dance timing is 2/2 stepping on the 1st and 3rd beat. BUT, and this is a VERY
BIG BUT - you can step on the 2nd and 3rd beats -
double-time steps; synchopated steps; etc.
Vals is played in 3/4 time. The basic dance timing is 1/3 stepping on the 1st beat. BUT, and this is a very BIG BUT,
you can step on the other beats of course.
To say that these rules NEVER VARY is to deny the essence
of Tango (and any kind of dancing) !!
John G.
step isIt is danced usually
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:32:47 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango vs. milonga
>John Lowry writes:
>
>'How do you define tango v milonga?'
>
>This is a very basic (and good) question. Where are
>all the tango instructors on the list when we need
>them? I'll probably regret answering this- but here
>goes anyway. Tango has one beat between the pulses.
>You can, and should on occasion, step on both. Vals
>has two beats between the pulses. You can step on
>ONLY the first of the two beats between the main
>pulse. These rules never ever vary.
In fact, in the waltz you can and may step on the 2/3 or the 3/3. You
can also use either of the beats as the moment for a decoration, a
tap, a rebound or a boleo. The 2/3 is more commonly used than the 3/3
for stepping, but it is not a hard and fast rule.
I once heard a master teacher known for the waltz make the same
statement in class about only using the 1/3 and 2/3. But when I
watched him dance, he actually used the 3/3 sometimes.
It is common enough for teachers to say one thing even as they do
another. As you get better at tango, you become so intuitive with
your movements that you have difficulty "observing" what you do.
It is my understanding that milonga (as we know it) did NOT predate
tango. Rather that the music of the 1910s & 1920s had a generalized
tango/milonga feeling. As tangos slowed down in the 1930s with the
"de Caro sensibility", milongas sped up. Certain orchestras added a
more African or Candombe beat to the milonga. I don't hear much
condombe in the earlier, tango/milonga music.
The time signature is for convenience of the musicians, not the
dancers. Obviously one could play 2/4 slowly or 4/4 quickly. Maybe a
musician can divine a milonga or tango feeling out of the time
signature, but it doesn't really give much information to a dancer.
More on the "africanization of the milonga":
The interesting thing is the ultra nostalgia content of the lyrics in
the 1930s milongas. The lyrics of the milonga, especially the milonga
condombera refer to the good old days, when the africans of Buenos
Aires would gather under the torches of San Telmo.
This nostalgia sense of the tango is layered in every generation:
The 1910s lyrics refer to the good old days of the 1890s.
The 1950s singers refer to the good old days of the 1940s.
The 1990s music refers to the singers in concert tango of the 1950s.
And here we are today, remembering the good old days of stronger
masculine and feminine archetypes.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango vs. milonga
> Rick states:
>
> > This is a very basic (and good) question. Where are
> > all the tango instructors on the list when we need
> > them? I'll probably regret answering this- but here
> > goes anyway. Tango has one beat between the pulses.
> > You can, and should on occasion, step on both. Vals
> > has two beats between the pulses. You can step on
> > ONLY the first of the two beats between the main
> > pulse. These rules never ever vary.
>
> The real question is "where are the musicians"?
>
> The above is total garbage (what are "pulses"
> anyway?)
>
> Tango is played in 4/.4 time (with maybe a few exceptions)
> = 4 beats to the measure. The basic dance timing is 2/2 > stepping on the 1st and 3rd beat. BUT, and this is a VERY
> BIG BUT - you can step on the 2nd and 3rd beats -
> double-time steps; synchopated steps; etc.
>
> Vals is played in 3/4 time. The basic dance timing is 1/3 > stepping on the 1st beat. BUT, and this is a very BIG BUT,
> you can step on the other beats of course.
>
> To say that these rules NEVER VARY is to deny the essence
> of Tango (and any kind of dancing) !!
>
> John G.
>
>
>
>
>
> step isIt is danced usually
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:33:28 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRY.COM.AU>
Subject: Tango vs. milonga
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 09:31:16 -0500
From: Rick McGarrey <RICKMCG@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Tango vs. milonga
John Lowry writes:
'How do you define tango v milonga?'
The discussion about bpm and strict tempo etc., is very instructive.
However, for me, the characteristic that distinguishes milonga from a fast
(old) tango is the galloping rhythm. (Dum-da-da-Dum). If you ever saw
Carmencita dance milonga you would know what I mean.
JL
