1341 White flags and the social dance floor
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 03:26:26 -0700
From: Gary Fay <gtf_ctim@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: White flags and the social dance floor
I keep seeing some of these themes, asking for dancing
with the eyes, yes that may well work, is there a
specific pattern for asking? (Pardon my ingnorance
please.)
One of the things I look for is shoes. If I see flip
flops, or open back shoes, the follower is unlikely to
be approached. Solid, leather sole shoes, securely
attached to the foot, tapping with the music, an
obvious ask me to dance signal.
I came to Tango from the Country and Western dance
crowd, East and West Coast Swings, Two Step,
Prgressive Waltz, and several 'ditty dances'. My dance
experience is simmilar. People are individuals and
there are a range of responses possible, "Yes I would
love to dance", "No, I am tired / I promised Ed a
dance,/ please come back later.", as well as "I don't
know how." and "Get away from me you fat ba....d, what
makes you think I would dance with YOU!"
One of the worst is to say no I don't want to dance
then turn around and dance to the same song with
another man. There is a way to deal with that. When
one follower did that to me, I went to her after that
and told her exactly how rude I thought that was and
for the rest of the evening I watcher her sit and I
just smiled at her while I dance around with another.
It takes a little effort to go up to someone new and
ask for a dance, if you don't know that person, you
very well should reward that effort if reasonable.
There have been several nights when I have approached
a stranger and asked them to dance, often I will find
a great dancer visiting a new place. One night the
target answered my "Do you dance?" query with "A
little". Much to my delight she was better than my
regular partners, I spent most of the night dancing
with her, it was fun and pleasurable.
Now if you have a relationship with someone then the
responses can be more candid. There is a very fast, 8
minute west coast swing song, I asked her to dance she
looked at me and said, "I am sorry, not to this
song.", in 20 minutes a very fast two step came up, I
looked at her and asked again, "Dance?", the answer
was an excited and pleasant "GOD YES". She looked at
me and said "I hope you were not offended by my
earlier refusal." I looked at her and said "Of course
not, you have credit with me, you gave a reasonable
excuse, and you sat the dance out." We had a few
wonderful dances after that.
It boils down to friendship, culture, and kindness. I
try to ask someone sitting to dance, especially if I
have not seen them before. But if I get slapped away,
it is unlikely I will try again. Now there are
cultural differences. I am used to single songs where
the dance theme changes, the partner changes, well it
was new to me that in Tango there are sets of 4 and
dancing one of the four and not multiple songs was an
insult, a cultural thing that was new to me,
especially as being new to tango coming from a
community where there were 1 dance sets.
There are times when learning that I want to sit and
watch so I can 'lift moves' from better couples, I
have been asked at those times and I will usually ask
the follower to sit with me and talk while I watch.
While I was learning it was very flattering but I may
have offended people with that action too. Hopefully
there is a sense that a person is a dancer, wants to
dance or wants a break, a known person may have a bad
day, try again next week, there are some that are
always presenting an attitude well they often do not
stay for long. I usually operate with the assumption
they came to dance unless there is evidence to the
contrary, however blatant or constant refusal will
drive leaders away, varied responces make tennative
advances. Time and credit before a no will allow the
partner to accept attitude, attitude without credit
can kill a relationship.
Thank goodness for communities that are forgiving,
nurturing and outreaching. This dancing thing can
really be a pleasure or a pain.
Gary F
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 08:28:41 -0700
From: Andrew <andrew@ORCADIGITAL.COM>
Subject: Re: White flags and the social dance floor
I must say, though I have heard this sentiment before (particularly from
men), I think that's quite presumptuous and judgmental. Why should a woman
have to want to dance with you? If she's waiting to dance with someone
else, or just genuinely doesn't want to dance with you for this song,
shouldn't that be okay for her to be honest about? What if the song playing
is one she particularly likes, and the person she wanted to dance with comes
around and wants to dance with her? Is there something inherently rude
about turning someone down? Isn't it alright to come to a milonga, and a
have a few people you really want to get dances from and wait for them? If
someone tells a social/white lie, and says "no thanks, I'm too tired" and
then goes and dance the same song, it does "call" them on the white lie,
which does sometimes seem a little rude, but then again - we all tell white
lies to try and save peoples' feelings occasionally .. just remember that
she was saying that to try and be gentle on your feelings, not to try to be
rude to you .. I think it's ideal if someone would reply honestly but
without a lot of detail (which implies the need for an excuse not to dance
with someone) - for instance, to say what your example follow below said
seems great - "no, I don't want to dance," or just "no, thanks!" or "not
now, thanks!" or "maybe later" (if they genuinely mean maybe later, and not
"no"). And staring at someone for the rest of the evening as "punishment"
for not wanting to dance with you!? That seems really punitive and
unfriendly in a social environment, and it would certainly make me unlikely
to want to dance with you again ..
Also, the idea that asking someone to dance is a big chore/effort that
should automatically be "rewarded" feels really controlling and not allowing
for choice and preference. If you have a community of much any size, and
you just say yes to everyone who asks you, you will dance with .. let's see,
if you have roughly 10 minute tandas, are conservative and only allow
yourself to dance one tanda per person, even though you may really want 2 or
3 with some of your friends, practice partners, boyfriend, whatever, and are
planning on staying at a dance for 3 hours (longer than some people come
for), you have about 6 people per hour - that's if you're really pumping 'em
through, not taking breaks, taking only one set apiece .. myself, I often
dance with 6 people all evening for 3-3 1/2 hours .. my point is that if you
have 40 leads at a milonga, you can't get to everyone, and if you have a
dozen friends there, you have to turn some people down to get dances with
most of the people you're hoping to dance with. It's not just that it's not
rude, it's that you almost have to do it to a limited degree. Why take it
personally? Noone's out to make you uncomfortable, they just don't want to
feel - and shouldn't be - "obligated" to dance with every person every time
they're asked.
Now, on the other hand, and perhaps you've had more of this experience, a
follow can be rude about it .. if you smile and say "no, I don't want to
dance", and then go to dance with someone else half a minute later, that
seems fine .. the key being to smile and be friendly about it. If you don't
make eye contact, don't smile, don't act friendly, or say something rude (a
friend of mine actually got "you should ask someone your own level." from
someone once!!?), that's inexcusable and also not very socially friendly.
The point being that we're all adults, we should be free to make our own
choices, but also to be polite and friendly about the way we do so. If
someone never wants to dance with me, that's they're choice, and it's okay.
Andrew, Portland
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] White flags and the social dance floor
> One of the worst is to say no I don't want to dance
> then turn around and dance to the same song with
> another man. There is a way to deal with that. When
> one follower did that to me, I went to her after that
> and told her exactly how rude I thought that was and
> for the rest of the evening I watcher her sit and I
> just smiled at her while I dance around with another.
> It takes a little effort to go up to someone new and
> ask for a dance, if you don't know that person, you
> very well should reward that effort if reasonable.
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 09:31:20 -0700
From: Richard deSousa <m1aport@ATTBI.COM>
Subject: Re: White flags and the social dance floor
In the following we touch on a few of the more important aspects. For more
details see the accompanying article ``Elements of Dance Etiquette.''
https://www.ee.princeton.edu/~aria/etiquette.html
a.. Never blame your partner for anything that may happen on the dance
floor. Not if you want him/her to dance with you again.
b.. A request for a dance must be accepted under almost all circumstances.
If you decline a dance, you yourself cannot dance until the end of that
song.
c.. No unsolicited teaching on the dance floor! There is a good chance
this will make your partner feel small and humiliated. Not exactly a great
way of encouraging him/her, or others, to dance with you.
d.. Do not monopolize a partner on the dance floor. Dancers are polite and
rarely say no to a dance, but this is no carte blanche to impose on their
kindness. Dance with everyone, and let everyone dance.
e.. On the floor, be considerate of the other couples. Exercise good
floorcraft; do not cut other couples off; no aerials or choreographed steps
on the dance floor.
Not to belabor the point or defend the Neanderthals who drag women on to the
dance floor despite their protestations, their behavior is indefensible, but
if everybody practiced social
dance etiquette, there would be less rude behavior on the dance floor.
Rich
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 09:07
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] White flags and the social dance floor
> Anytime she refuses a dance, or just if she says she's tired? If she says
> she's tired, there is some implicit breach I can understand, though I
> disagree with it's severity. If she just says "no thank you" (perhaps
she's
> waiting for a friend of hers she promised a dance to!), should she not be
> allowed to dance with them when they ask until the next song? Is there a
> rule that you must dance with someone that asks you, even if you politely
> say no thanks?
>
> Andrew
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard deSousa" <m1aport@attbi.com>
> To: "Andrew" <andrew@ORCADIGITAL.COM>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] White flags and the social dance floor
>
>
> > It's more than a white lie, Andrew. It's a gross breach of etiquette.
If
> > the follower refuses a dance she should sit down until the next song.
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > Andrew said:
> >
> > If someone tells a social/white lie, and says "no thanks, I'm too tired"
> and
> > then goes and dance the same song, it does "call" them on the white lie,
> > which does sometimes seem a little rude, but then again - we all tell
> white
> > lies to try and save peoples' feelings occasionally .. just remember
that
> > she was saying that to try and be gentle on your feelings, not to try to
> be
> > rude to you ..
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:11:07 -0700
From: Andrew <andrew@ORCADIGITAL.COM>
Subject: Re: White flags and the social dance floor
Hmm.. well, there's certainly some room for disagreement. I think the ones
I have trouble with are (b) and (d). (b) for reasons already mentioned ..
and (d) - if someone is finished dancing with me, they'll say "thank you"
and walk away. If I'm finished dancing with someone I'll say the "thank
you" and walk away. If both of us want to keep dancing with each other, we
can do so as long as we like - we'll tell each other when we're done .. some
of my favorite dance partners and I have spent 2-3 hours dancing together ..
I remember dancing with someone in the Netherlands for 2 hours straight,
taking a break with someone else, then dancing the next 2 1/2 hours with
them .. completely consensual, completely amazing. I think my favorite
thing about it is that you can get into this zone dancing with someone,
especially closer embraces, that takes 2-3 sets to warm up into .. Once
you've been dancing with someone an hour or so, it sort of resets your take
on reality - instead of the reality being the sitting at your table, and
taking breaks to dance, it's that the reality is someone else's arms,
there's nothing else beyond your little sphere of existence, nothing else
matters or exists .. I'm certainly glad I feel "allowed" to share such a
feeling with someone. Anyhow, as long as someone isn't stopping you from
behaving in what you feel is a socially polite manner, I think it should be
alright to allow others to act in what they feel is a polite manner, even if
it means not dancing with everyone or falling into dance zone for 3 hours
with their favorite partner of choice .. I think some of my favorite moments
on the floor have actually been when a follow that I wanted to dance with,
I'd see dancing with one of her other favorite leads, and they'd be
completely blissed out, asleep in one anothers arms for hours as they glided
around the floor .. it's a joy to see that on the floor, and I don't feel at
all like either one is being monopolized, they're just sharing some joy
together. I'll dance with her another time.
Joyful dances to all,
Andrew, Portland
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 9:31 AM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] White flags and the social dance floor
> In the following we touch on a few of the more important aspects. For more
> details see the accompanying article ``Elements of Dance Etiquette.''
>
> https://www.ee.princeton.edu/~aria/etiquette.html
>
> a.. Never blame your partner for anything that may happen on the dance
> floor. Not if you want him/her to dance with you again.
>
> b.. A request for a dance must be accepted under almost all
circumstances.
> If you decline a dance, you yourself cannot dance until the end of that
> song.
>
> c.. No unsolicited teaching on the dance floor! There is a good chance
> this will make your partner feel small and humiliated. Not exactly a great
> way of encouraging him/her, or others, to dance with you.
>
> d.. Do not monopolize a partner on the dance floor. Dancers are polite
and
> rarely say no to a dance, but this is no carte blanche to impose on their
> kindness. Dance with everyone, and let everyone dance.
>
> e.. On the floor, be considerate of the other couples. Exercise good
> floorcraft; do not cut other couples off; no aerials or choreographed
steps
> on the dance floor.
>
> Not to belabor the point or defend the Neanderthals who drag women on to
the
> dance floor despite their protestations, their behavior is indefensible,
but
> if everybody practiced social
> dance etiquette, there would be less rude behavior on the dance floor.
>
> Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew" <andrew@orcadigital.com>
> To: "Richard deSousa" <m1aport@attbi.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 09:07
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] White flags and the social dance floor
>
>
> > Anytime she refuses a dance, or just if she says she's tired? If she
says
> > she's tired, there is some implicit breach I can understand, though I
> > disagree with it's severity. If she just says "no thank you" (perhaps
> she's
> > waiting for a friend of hers she promised a dance to!), should she not
be
> > allowed to dance with them when they ask until the next song? Is there
a
> > rule that you must dance with someone that asks you, even if you
politely
> > say no thanks?
> >
> > Andrew
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Richard deSousa" <m1aport@attbi.com>
> > To: "Andrew" <andrew@ORCADIGITAL.COM>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 8:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] White flags and the social dance floor
> >
> >
> > > It's more than a white lie, Andrew. It's a gross breach of etiquette.
> If
> > > the follower refuses a dance she should sit down until the next song.
> > > Rich
> > >
> > >
> > > Andrew said:
> > >
> > > If someone tells a social/white lie, and says "no thanks, I'm too
tired"
> > and
> > > then goes and dance the same song, it does "call" them on the white
lie,
> > > which does sometimes seem a little rude, but then again - we all tell
> > white
> > > lies to try and save peoples' feelings occasionally .. just remember
> that
> > > she was saying that to try and be gentle on your feelings, not to try
to
> > be
> > > rude to you ..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:39:18 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: White flags and the social dance floor
Gary Fay writes:
>One of the worst is to say no I don't want to dance
>then turn around and dance to the same song with another man.
>There is a way to deal with that. When one follower did that to me,
> I went to her after that and told her exactly how rude I thought that was
Thanks for this great idea Gary. Next time this happens, that will be the response. I experienced this a couple years ago, here in enlightened PDX. A gal begged off, "I've got a sore back" & accepted an invitation, 15 sec later, to dance the same dance. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ;o) She's slipped into the line at my bday dances to dance with me after this. Next birthday dance, its going to be a little awkward, when I deliver this info to her in front of a ton of people watching, she & I just standing there, talking---no dancing, sorry honey. No worries. Reminds of what Arlo Guthrie said in Alice's Resteraunt: "you gotta a lot of d*mn Gaul".
Gary also writes:
> One of the things I look for is shoes. If I see flip flops
This will give away my age (43). I'm definitely old school now i guess. I call them flip flops, thongs. Used to wear thongs all the time, years ago. 2 of them!
Rick
PS: I do love Portland, a lot. I've grown up here, we're a medium sized city, have lots of quirky, funky old neighborhoods filled with soul & cool old houses. We had great anti-"war" protests, etc.
"The point of public relations slogans like "Support our troops" is that they don't mean anything... That's the whole point of good propaganda. You want to create a slogan that nobody's going to be against, and everybody's going to be for. Nobody knows what it means, because it doesn't mean anything. Its crucial value is that it diverts your attention from a question that does mean something: Do you support our policy? That's the one you're not allowed to talk about."
Noam Chomsky
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 13:30:15 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: White flags and the social dance floor
> Thanks for this great idea Gary. Next time this
> happens, that will be the response. I experienced
> this a couple years ago, here in enlightened PDX. A
> gal begged off, "I've got a sore back" & accepted an
> invitation, 15 sec later, to dance the same dance.
> Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ;o) She's slipped into the line at
> my bday dances to dance with me after this. Next
> birthday dance, its going to be a little awkward,
> when I deliver this info to her in front of a ton of
> people watching, she & I just standing there,
> talking---no dancing, sorry honey. No worries.
Do we think that Rick meant this message to go to
tango-l? (I ask as someone who has just hit the wrong
button and sent a joking message to Astrid to the
world.) Or maybe he was also joking and I just missed
the "tone". Because this type of controlling,
punitive, and down right creepy behavior (not to
mention that cited by Gary) is the type of thing that
normal people fantasize about briefly, then reject as
unworthy of their better selves.
What the heck - maybe the women who refused these guys
had been warned what type of humans (I almost wrote
"leads") they are.
Marisa
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2003 10:24:13 -0700
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: White flags and the social dance floor
Andrew writes:
"....The point being that we're all adults, we should
be free to make our own choices, but also to be polite
and friendly about the way we do so...."
We like to think we're adults (we look the part,
anyway), but most of the time we don't act that way.
And that includes the dance floor. The stories about
childish behavior among adults are the most fun,
though, as you know. :)
Luda
=====
