509 Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 07:56:26 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
Hi Tom,
Regarding your 5-week warning for your Milonguero Weekend event:
>>>
The milonguero weekend is about SOCIAL DANCING, not SHOW TANGO.
<<<
You seem to be trying to convey something more than just the contents of the
workshops here, or whether any exhibitions are on the schedule. As you
know, some people are perceiving statements like this as an attempt by you
to limit freedom of expression on the dance floor. As a host, can you
clarify what you are trying to say for people who may be trying to determine
whether their dance style will make them unwelcome at this event?
All the best,
Brian
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:20:11 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
>Hi Tom,
>
>Regarding your 5-week warning for your Milonguero Weekend event:
>>>>
>The milonguero weekend is about SOCIAL DANCING, not SHOW TANGO.
><<<
>You seem to be trying to convey something more than just the contents of the
>workshops here, or whether any exhibitions are on the schedule. As you
>know, some people are perceiving statements like this as an attempt by you
>to limit freedom of expression on the dance floor. As a host, can you
>clarify what you are trying to say for people who may be trying to determine
>whether their dance style will make them unwelcome at this event?
>
>All the best,
>Brian
Thanks, your comments help clarify some things for me.
Whether or not the term is descriptive or evocative, "Milonguero
Weekend" is meant to evoke memories of the dance floors of Buenos
Aires.
Most of the people coming to Denver over Memorial Day are fond of the
close-embrace, and are looking forward to an environment of more
crowded dance floors, an emphasis more toward the rhythmic, 1930s
music, and taking some classes (or not) from Susana Miller.
Many of the visitors have spent time in Buenos Aires.
Many (not all) of the Denver locals love to dance close as well.
When I say the weekend "recalls the Buenos Aires experience" I'm not
claiming to have it in my pocket...it is the visitors and locals who
bring it with them!
Specifically, there is a crowd energy, the "Fourth Connection" in
tango, that you don't get until the crowd arrives at the right
density, the right music, the right people, passions flying, the
"breath of wind at the edge of the cliff" (Patricia Barber)...
I'd like to suggest another phrase: "Many Milongueros; Many Tango
Languages". As anyone who has been to BA knows, there are as many
styles and sub-styles as there are great, older dancers. But the
interesting thing is that only a finite set of those "tango
languages" are represented outside Argentina, by teachers or by
dancers.
There seems to be an even more finite set of "tango languages" being
taught when it comes to stage vocabulary, not to imply that all
dancers are equally expressive nor all the same.
More interestingly, if the dancing in Buenos Aires has such a rich
set of social styles, why is it that what is taught in the US tends
to be a more finite set of fantasy or fancy styles?
So, my personal interest is in promoting social tango, close embrace
and rhythm (like I fell in love with in Buenos Aires), and
specifically promoting tango weekends for those who might share some
of these ideas.
I'm also trying to emphasize the dancing more than the workshops,
even though I'm always fascinated with Susana Miller's ability to
convey the social dance styles of the older gentlemen.
This is not meant to take anything away from the majority who prefer
Fantasy, Fancy, Open Salon or Nuevo.
If those styles are more your cup of tea, you can certainly find
fellow travelers at the Miami week & weekend over Memorial Day.
For that matter, there are 5 or 6 tango festivals dedicated to a
variety of styles, but hardly any advertising a focus on Milonguero
Style.
--
-----
"To my way of thinking the tango is, above all, rhythm,
nerve, force, character...I tried to restore to the tango
its masculine quality." -- Juan D'Arienzo (1949)
-----
Tom Stermitz
- Stermitz@Ragtime.org
- 303-725-5963
- https://www.tango.org/dance/EternaTeaching.html
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:16:09 -0700
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> wrote:
>
> Most of the people coming to Denver over Memorial
> Day are fond of the
> close-embrace, and are looking forward to an
> environment of more
> crowded dance floors, an emphasis more toward the
> rhythmic, 1930s
> music, .....
If I like to throw ganchos and boleos to the music of
the 1940's within the space available strictly to the
rhythm, am I unwelcome?
>
> There seems to be an even more finite set of "tango
> languages" being
> taught when it comes to stage vocabulary, not to
> imply that all
> dancers are equally expressive nor all the same.
>
I only speak American English. Is that OK?
>
> This is not meant to take anything away from the
> majority who prefer
> Fantasy, Fancy, Open Salon or Nuevo.
>
I prefer Argentine Tango.
> If those styles are more your cup of tea, you can
> certainly find
> fellow travelers at the Miami week & weekend over
> Memorial Day.
>
I am confused. Where to go?!!!
Larry Duke.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:29:42 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
----- Original Message -----
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:16:04 -0700
From: robin thomas <niborsamoht@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
it's so wonderful when people dance in lanes and move
slowly but steadily in the line of dance. you can
really dance without fear and express the music. this
ends on a crowded floor when someone starts doing
there own thing. it doesn't mean that they crash into
anyone themselves but they still spoil other peoples
fun because they disrupt the flow.
i think the milonguero weekends in denver are
dedicated to people who appreciate this. i used to
feel like such a minority sometimes in north america
because i like to dance apilado and because i like
music from the thirties and forties. it's so wonderful
to be able to go to denver and feel normal and be able
to dance without being afraid of your partner getting
hurt. it's so wonderful to not have to be the only
person talking responsibility for the maintenance of
the ronda.
tom doesn't want everyone to dance the same way but
the denver weekends are special because they create
what a lot of us really miss dancing in north america,
the atmosphere of canning on wednesdays or sundays or
any of the daytime milongas in downtown bs.as.. it's
really the only place so far that i've found it in
north america. why begrudge us that?
robin thomas, new york city
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 12:32:03 -0700
From: Ted Crowley <tcrowley@CISCO.COM>
Subject: Re: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
Brian, and others
I'll let Tom discuss "style" as he is a teacher, been to BsAs, and so on.
I'd like to add a couple comments at the practical level, simply to say
that ONLY because of the very crowded dance floors, if you attended
a Denver weekend you would have to severely limit your dancing, or
else risk hurting people (which is never acceptable, even to risk. This
is social dance, not competitive football). I would think anyone who
isn't acting risky or otherwise rude to the other dancers would be very
welcome. But that is far more of a restriction than you may think. I will
try to explain, so please bear with me...
I attended the Denver Milonguero Weekend event last Labor Day.
Having only danced in the US, I'd never danced on so crowded a
dance floor. Even though I really like a crowded floor (w/ Milonguero)
I was overwhelmed and had to learn to adapt to this new environment.
The workshop teachers were all very helpful, focussing their classes on
techniques for crowded floors.
"Staying in my lane" was new to me, but necessary. There were 3 lanes,
filling the floor (with no "center" left over for figure dancing). I found that
anyone who stopped to do a "figura" was holding up a whole lane, and
there was no way to go around them. Any time I tried to take 3 steps
in the same direction (or 2 large ones) to enter an "open spot" I saw
(i.e. in another lane), at least 2 other couples went for that open spot
at the same moment. So I never succesfully "passed" anyone, I just
messed up the flow in both lanes when trying...and of course risked
collisions with those other c2 ouples. So I learned to stay in my lane.
There was a variety of styles, some more open, of course. But anyone
who danced with their elbows up (away from their sides) was hurting
people, period. Elbows are hard, and couples are brushing against
other couples constantly. So don't do that. I'm lucky to be 6'4" so
I only get hit in the back or chest, but many women's faces are at
the height of your elbows.
The same applies even more to feet, very limited space around you,
and too crowded for others to see your feet and avoid them. It isn't
just kicking ankles. It is also easy to trip someone, and a fall on a
dance floor can ruin a whole evening. So avoid all moves where you
ever have either foot anywhere except directly under you (or directly
under your partner, or between the two of you).
Let me repeat a comment -- couples are constantly brushing and
bumping (gently) against each other. There is no room not to! So
bold, forceful, rapid movements are out, they risk hurting people.
Doing figuras, you will have to check for available room for each and
every step for you and your partner both, not just at the start. And never
ever step backwards, if it's been more than 1 second since you looked in
that direction, since in 2 seconds there may be someone there. Even then,
if you do step back (I do, usually towards line of dance) make it just an inch
or two per step, slowly, so if you do bump someone no-one is hurt. Always
protect your follower (as a leader) by moving in a new direction yourself
first rather than putting her there, unless you have a clear view all around it
(i.e. unless you're a foot taller than your partner and moving forward).
And of course try to keep moving around the room a good part of the time,
rather than stopping for figuras most of the time, since you have a whole lane
following behind you.
If you can dance with all those restrictions (and any I've forgotten) and if
you enjoy a very crowded floor where you circle the room very slowly,
and if you don't mind giving up for one weekend your whole reportoire
of all the other patterns that can't be used in that crowd, then it seems
to me you'd be "welcome" and also that you'd enjoy the weekend.
But then again, maybe then you would be dancing "milonguero". It is my
personal theory that what we call "milonguero" is simply what works on
a dance floor that is way, way too crowded for normal tango movements.
I think that is how it evolved. Perhaps the experts have a different story,
but I'd be hard to convince, since everything I know of milonguero seems
clearly designed for that one purpose -- handling a crowded floor in a way
that doesn't risk either your partner or neighbors.
-- Ted
Brian Dunn wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> Regarding your 5-week warning for your Milonguero Weekend event:
> >>>
> The milonguero weekend is about SOCIAL DANCING, not SHOW TANGO.
> <<<
> You seem to be trying to convey something more than just the contents of the
> workshops here, or whether any exhibitions are on the schedule. As you
> know, some people are perceiving statements like this as an attempt by you
> to limit freedom of expression on the dance floor. As a host, can you
> clarify what you are trying to say for people who may be trying to determine
> whether their dance style will make them unwelcome at this event?
>
> All the best,
> Brian
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:34:46 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
From the exchange between Tom Stermitz and Brian Dunn, there would appear
to be some sort of rift in the Denver/Boulder tango community based on
styles of tango. I am sorry to learn of such a rift, and I certainly do
not want to see it exported much farther--although I see people elsewhere
who would create such rifts.
According to those who were in Buenos Aires at the time, the styles danced
in milongas during the 1940s and early 1950s varied by neigborhood, but
both elements of the salon style and milonguero style are claimed as being
present. Therefore, I do not see much value in making sharp distinctions
between social styles of tango or claiming originality. I like Tom's
phrase, "Many Milongueros; Many Tango Languages".
If Juan Carlos Copes is to be believed, fantasia was not danced in
milongas, but it was invented to create stage shows in the 1950s. To my
eyes, most fantasia combines elements of salon, orillero and ballet.
Gavito's stage dancing includes elements of the milonguero style.
In some ways, I see emphasizing the distinctions between styles as a
marketing ploy. Some advocates of the milonguero style describe salon and
fantasia as being nearly the same style. Antonio Todaro, the teacher of
many of today's stage stars, is the connection used to link the two styles.
Yet, salon-style was one of the major social styles of tango before Todaro
emerged in importance, and the salon-style of today mixes elements of
orillero and older salon, as does the milonguero-style.
If we think of tango as a language, I think we would realize how ridiculous
it is to argue over which style is best. Imagine that someone tells you
that you should only learn a subset of the words to be fluent because the
others are fake--only used by academics. Or imagine if someone tries to
convince you to use only academic words in your everyday conversations.
Both approaches are clearly limited. You will be more fluent if you can
use both the academic and non-academic words and know when each is
appropriate...
I have simply been arguing that navigational skills are of great importance
at milongas and that instructors who are interested in the enjoyability of
dancing at milongas, should be aware of how their students' ability to
navigate will affect the quality of dancing. At crowded milongas, I think
the use of stage elements is likely to prove less appropriate. As Robin
Thomas wrote:
>[I]t's so wonderful when people dance in lanes and move
>slowly but steadily in the line of dance. you can
>really dance without fear and express the music. this
>ends on a crowded floor when someone starts doing
>there own thing. it doesn't mean that they crash into
>anyone themselves but they still spoil other peoples
>fun because they disrupt the flow.
I do not agree with Tom Stermitz, however, that teaching/learning fantasia
limits tango language, it is only the exclusive use of fantasia that limits
expression. Inappropriate use is also likely to be met with much
consternation, just as one would not have much interest in seeing
milonguero-style social dancing on the stage.
As people seem to be sharing their travel plans to underscore their views
about tango, our dancing embraces elements of many styles from milonguero
to nuevo, and Susan and I have diverse travel plans. Our plans include
Memorial Day Weekend in Dallas for the Leandro and Andrea workshop;
Memorial Day Week in Miami for the USTC Tango Week; and Labor Day Weekend
in Denver for the Milonguero Weekend. The Portland TangoFest in October is
a little bit farther away but certainly a possiblility.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 17:20:12 -0300
From: SMC Administracion <adm@SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
Robin Thomas wrote:
" [I]t's so wonderful when people dance in lanes and move
slowly but steadily in the line of dance. you can
really dance without fear and express the music.
I have been working this weekend at the office, to fill some accounting
forms that required peace of mind.
AT weekends, only the security man is on duty , this saturday the man was
Vicente, and old milonguero also,
that ceased to dance due to several reasons that maybe I will comment one
day.
When I am working alone, I place my tango cd´s at the computer at an almost
abusive volume. But Vicente, as
old milonguero , came closer , close their eyes , and there it begun my
enlightening, i.e. :
"Vicente, which orchestra is this ??"
"Let me see... this one , is Di Sarli , but not the first orchestra , the
second one he have to arrange after the first one
left him alone due to his almost unbearable demand of excellence in playing
their style"
"Vicente , and this other orchestra ?"
" Ah... this is Anibal Troilo, when he had Di Filipo and Piazzolla as
bandoneonist , what a band "
And my final question to Vicente was :
" Vicente, how was dancing with Di Sarli those days, in the 40's "
" It was so wonderful. Sometimes I go to a balcony , just to see the crowd
dancing in their lanes,
moving slowly and steadily in the line of dance. It was ...... elegant ,
beautiful , no hurry at all . "
I think that to To limit the learning of tango (or to frame it ) to a one
and only style, is a pity.
Anibal Troilo used to say " there is nothing such old Tango and New Tango.
There is tango well danced , and tango bad danced"
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:17:34 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
robin thomas wrote:
>>>
it's so wonderful when people dance in lanes and move
slowly but steadily in the line of dance. you can
really dance without fear and express the music. this
ends on a crowded floor when someone starts doing
there own thing. it doesn't mean that they crash into
anyone themselves but they still spoil other peoples
fun because they disrupt the flow.
<<<
Been there, done that, felt that way when I had to dodge 'em for safety.
Recently a visitor from out of town was dancing a clearly identifiable Nuevo
Tango style (a style which I personally enjoy, among others) in a relatively
open floor. He was competent in the mechanics of that style, he didn't
crash into anyone, he was fun to watch, but his occasional energetic darts
ten feet backward against the line of dance created a chilling social
effect. Everyone else was set on edge wondering whether the stranger was
going to slam someone.
But this is my point. It wasn't the style that was the problem per se, it
was his choice to employ that style in that setting without acknowledging
the social consequences. We're talking MANNERS here, not style, not whether
people who like to perform can dance socially.
>>>
i used to feel like such a minority sometimes in north america
because i like to dance apilado and because i like
music from the thirties and forties. it's so wonderful
to be able to go to denver and feel normal and be able
to dance without being afraid of your partner getting
hurt. it's so wonderful to not have to be the only
person talking responsibility for the maintenance of
the ronda.
<<<
I guess we're spoiled here in Colorado - Daniel Trenner's early and
significant influence has left us with a local tango culture that really is
based on lead/follow, navigation, improvisation, and following the codes.
Many of us have been to BsAs, and have developed a deep affinity for the
intricacies of milonga culture.
>>>
tom doesn't want everyone to dance the same way but
the denver weekends are special because they create
what a lot of us really miss dancing in north america,
the atmosphere of canning on wednesdays or sundays or
any of the daytime milongas in downtown bs.as.. it's
really the only place so far that i've found it in
north america... why begrudge us that?
<<<
Good! Come and dance with us - although it's never been as crowded at any of
the Denver weekends as I've seen it in BsAs at El Morocco, when people were
practically getting squeezed off the floor. But if you like that kind of
pressure, we've gotten used to it here as part of the scenery occasionally,
just as they learned to do in BsAs in the Golden Age, out of necessity. The
Friday night events at the Mercury Cafe are the most crowded, with things
thinning out considerably as the weekend progresses and the available venues
get larger.
As far as wanting "everyone to dance the same way"...I was dancing in the
beautiful (and huge) Cheeseman Park Pavilion at the Tango Colorado Fall BBQ
Milonga, held at the same time as the first Milonguero Weekend (and widely
and erroneously perceived to be "part of" that Weekend). It was an
indescribably perfect evening, as has been recounted widely on Tango-L, and
I was dancing mostly close-embrace with an out-of-town tanguera. When some
stirring Pugliese came over the speakers, I opened the frame slightly and
led her into a simple gancho-boleo combination. She smiled with pleasure,
then giggled, looked around in an embarassed fashion and said "Isn't that
illegal here?"
At the time we had to ourselves a square almost twenty feet on a side.
So where did this idea come from, that disrupted an otherwise sweet tango
conversation, in a free tango event sponsored solely by our local tango
organization whose bylaws forbid advocating one style or teacher over
another?
My first Argentine tango lessons were with Tom Stermitz and his first
teaching partner, Nina Pesochinsky, back when he was a brand new teacher in
the first series of lessons they ever taught in Boulder. They warmed me up
for Daniel Trenner, whose performances in his classes got me hooked for
good. I've frequently complimented Tom in public and private on his
contributions to our local community, and on his often graceful and stylish
contributions to Tango-L.
My questions to Tom were designed not to limit your fun as a visitor to our
tango community, robin, where you and ALL other tango dancers are more than
welcome, especially to our "non-denominational" Tango Colorado events on
Memorial Day and Labor Day weekends. Rather they were designed to call
attention to a tendency I observe of creeping intolerance and exclusion in
recent postings on Tango-L. I wish to discourage this tendency, by pointing
out what I consider to be needlessly divisive stereotyping.
Regards,
Brian Dunn
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 01:43:48 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
Stephen Brown wrote:
>>>
From the exchange between Tom Stermitz and Brian Dunn, there would appear
to be some sort of rift in the Denver/Boulder tango community based on
styles of tango. I am sorry to learn of such a rift, and I certainly do
not want to see it exported much farther--although I see people elsewhere
who would create such rifts.
<<<
Now, let's not get too excited here - before people start asking Tom and me
to mud-wrestle for tango charities, I should point out a few things. As
TEACHERS, my partner Deb Sclar and I spring from the same tango stock as Tom
does. We all count Daniel Trenner as major early inspiration. As I pointed
out elsewhere, Tom and his first partner Nina were early teachers for both
Deb and me, back when he was a beginning teacher. The material was
salon-style at the time, with the first promising hints of close-embrace.
As was pointed out to both Tom and me recently by a local student who has
taken classes with both of us,
- we all emphasize the same basics at the beginner level,
- we all stress the need to adapt to floor conditions for safety and
consideration of other dancers,
- we all dance successfully together in the same venues, as do our students.
While I would say Tom's interest and energy is focused fairly exclusively on
crowded-floor so-called "milonguero-style" dancing regardless of floor
conditions, Deb and I tend to teach a wider variety of material suitable to
a wider variety of floor densities. Purchasers of Daniel Trenner's
"Advanced/Professional Tango Intensive with Gustavo Naveira" tapes from 1999
can see all three of us in the background, although Deb and I clearly draw
more on this material now than Tom does. Deb and I also perform tango on
stage fairly frequently, but are probably in a variation of close-embrace
85-90% of the time while social dancing. Rather than the rigid
"padlocked-hips-and-shoulders" close-embrace style that many "milonguero"
advocates prefer, we're more fans of the "rolling close embrace" of more
recent vintage, first introduced to us by Tomas and Chantal, because it
feels even more intimate and allows the woman more flexibility in her hips
when doing back ochos.
So please put your fears of a Denver/Boulder "rift" to rest - we all dance
together pretty well.
>>>
I like Tom's phrase, "Many Milongueros; Many Tango Languages".
<<<
I like it too. Encouraging the perception of tolerance and diversity in
Tango-L descriptions of the Denver/Boulder tango scene was in fact the point
of all my recent postings, so along with you I am glad to perceive this
shift in the rhetoric.
Tom's energy and skill in following the guidance of his tango muse has long
been an inspiration to other tango organizers, and a great resource in our
local community. Where I differ with him, the differences have more in
common with "family fights" than with "rifts" - the conflict may be real,
but is ameliorated because everyone knows you'll meet again at dinner no
matter what happens. The cautionary note I would sound in this case concerns
the blinders we can inadvertently put in place on our perceptions when we
focus solely on how we'd like things to be, rather than on how things are.
We all love tango so much, it's easy to let our passions blind us to the
equally real passions experienced from other tango perspectives - and that
loss of connection within our communities is more tragic than any
inauthentic tango travesty you can think of.
Let's keep dancing together,
Brian Dunn
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:37:21 -0400
From: Maria Lemus <mlemus@THE-BEACH.NET>
Subject: Re: Who is welcome at the "Milonguero Weekend"?
Stephen Brown wrote: "You will be more fluent if you can
use both the academic and non-academic words and know when each is
appropriate..."
Absolutely.
This is like saying, can you be a race car driver and still manage
interstates? Let's just say that if you live in Miami you are used to
people crossing you in very un-milonguero sort of ways on the thoroughfares
...
I know I am new but I've gotta say, a few fellas just go way too fast and
get me into way too much contact with other people's ankles & elbows on the
floor. I'd just rather dance simply & slowly and & go with the flow ...
isn't that supposed to be the beauty of it? Of course if you ever happen to
have the floor to yourself, then by all means stretch it out ... but so far
what I can tell it's like the follower is a clean, empty canvas that the
leader will paint on ... and some leaders are way too eager??? Whereas the
painter should really slow down and make the best of his subject and the
style of the composition ... is this an adequate metaphor???
It is curious to me the division of "show" and "floor," ... people who are
conscious and aware will adapt themselves to circumstances ... again, I feel
like I might be assuming too much, but even though I have a ballet
background I KNOW I can't just grand-jete across the tango floor. I don't
want to either, tango is a whole different movement.
Un abrazo,
Maria
Miami Beach
