318 Women leading
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:45:14 -0800
From: Ed Heede <cynthiab7@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Women leading
Ingrid wrote:
" I want to know what other women think about fellow women learning to lead.
.
. and if they find it strange to dance with women who lead. "
In response I would like to put in a vote for women learning to lead. I
agree it helps women who know how to lead to be able to FOLLOW better as do
men that learn how to follow in turn helps them LEAD better.
If there were more women leading and asking other women to dance it wouldn't
be strange anymore. In my opinion it would just give us women MORE chances
to get out on the dance floor and dance! Tango of all dances should not be
gender shy. I ask if men have and can dance together why not women dancing
together? Tango as an art form deserves all the participation it can inspire
and then some.
Thanks for asking,
Cynthia Brown
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:26:24 -0800
From: Clay Nelson <claybird@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: A Man's Response to Women Leading
I'm all for women learning to lead (and men learning to follow) and, we
encourage this to happen in our Portland tango community.
However, I would like to focus on Ingrid's suggestion that men ask women to
lead. I love to follow on occasions, but I'm certainly not as good as most
women, and thus it seems a bit unfair to ask a woman (or a man) to lead
me--but then again if I don't ask, I don't get a chance to practice
following. I'd like to know how others feel about this.
Clay Nelson
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:29:12 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Women leading
Since most of the responses will be pro on this subject I will interject some
con to enliven the discussion.
My experience is that women do not learn to follow better by learning to
lead. They just learn something about leading. Their following stays the
some. At least they don't show it in their dancing with me or in their
technique as I observe it. Most bounce too much and lead with their arms. The
ones who are good dancers to begin with may learn something, and they should
if they are going to teach it, but the ones who are still having problems
continue to have them. Now they have added even more things to have problems
with. Dancing with each other, either men or women, is fine and if you have
fun doing it then go right ahead but if you are using it for a didactic tool
and shortcut to improve your dancing it won't work. And asking each other
about how they have improved is like preaching to the choir. Let the leaders
be the judge of that. By the same token there are plenty of men who have
learned to improve their leading, quite impressively sometimes, but whose
overall technique and form are still very awkward. Many aspects of the dance
are interrelated but refining one won't necessarily improve the other.
There is also an historical misperception about men leading men. During the
golden age of tango and before, men practiced together mainly because
respectable women weren't allowed out to practice. Men didn't have much
choice. They wanted to impress the women when they did go to the milongas so
they had to practice together. But now in our modern age it is no longer
necessary to practice with each other because it is easy to practice with
women and vice versa.
Most people just don't want to put in the required practice and miles of
walking and following needed to become a good dancer. They would rather
resort to watching videos, taking privates, changing teachers every few
months, taking every workshop that comes to town ( not so bad in some places
but here in New York we have workshops almost bi-weekly) and learning the
partners part instead of doing the boring hard work of practicing the basic
steps. You don't perfect back ochos and molinetes by learning to lead, you
perfect them by practicing them, for months and years, not a few weeks of
classes.
Many "modern" women are uncomfortable about men having all the "control" in a
dance. I personally find the exchange of lead and follow just another gimmick
to sell videos.
If a class is short on one gender or the other than mix it up and give
everyone the opportunity to learn the material but don't assume that by
learning the other part that you will be improving. You will be only adding
more material that you will need to practice, at the expense of the material
that you no longer practice very much because you are too busy with the new
stuff. It's like people who learn too many steps too fast (most people).
Their technique never improves but they build up a huge vocabulary of badly
executed steps.
Cheers,
Charles Roques
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:14:49 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <melinda.bates@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Women leading
----- Original Message -----
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:47:53 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <melinda.bates@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Fw: Re: Women leading
Virginia Gift asked me to forward this to the List.......
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Women leading
..... A word about leading. About a year ago I decided to learn to lead out
> of self defense. I was sitting out too many dances; and my tolerance was
> low for watching those sweet, pretty young things being sought out while
we
> "more mature women" warmed the benches, so to speak.
> I decided that if I learned to be a good leader, there would be
enough
> women so that I would need only to sit down when I wanted. That was the
> first phase. Second phase was a surprise when I found that leading was
(for
> me) much more interesting than following--unless the leader was an
> absolutely dreamy dancer. I found it more exciting to be able to be so
> creative and responsible. Then I moved onto the third phase of
appreciation
> of leading--to which you addressed, i.e. being able to dance in any style
I
> wanted. I realized that (for me) the greatest drawback to following was
> the number of dances I needed to suffer through either out of politeness
or
> boredom or desperation.
> As we know, each leader has his very own style and some are not so
> yummy. I decided that if I could learn to lead well, I would ALWAYS be
able
> to dance the style I liked. (Without having to degrade myself by
soliciting
> a dance from one of my favorite partners.)
> I'm finallly getting good and confident, and there are a number of
> women who say they much prefer my leading to many of the men in our
> community. And I love it. I even practice on my own--something I didn't
do
> enough of when I was only a follower.
> I recommend it to you.
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 04:04:03 -0400
From: Nicole Dowell <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: women leading women, women needing men
In discussion to women taking on the role of the leader in tango, I agree that a woman can often understand the sensitivity of a lead, but being a female instructor, I've never agreed that a woman can or should replace the male as the leader.
Why? Did we forget the sensuality and the "sexual" energy that is exchanged in tango? This is the true feeling of tango. If same gender couples are of the same sexual orientation, maybe they can create this energy between them, but being a straight female, I have never been able to recreate this energy dancing with a woman, as I can dancing with a male. Dancing with a woman lead is generally very cold to me, as I see most women leaders as cold dancers/leaders. That loses all the truth of the feeling of tango IMHO.
Besides, in what I have often witnessed in my experience of watching tango dancers...the majority of women I see leading on the floor, don't usually dance the woman's part well enough, gracefully enough, or with the sensual feeling that the woman should feel in tango well enough to exchange the role of the man.
Also, there are other reasons why the man has been designated the role of the leader. Specifically because generally men are taller and physically stronger than women, which helps in most of the combinations and patterns. For more interesting ideas on why the man leads, check out this site:
https://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/dance/menlead.html
I agree that learning the opposites sex's role (for males/leads and females/followers) is good in practice and practicas because it helps to understand the response of your partner. But I will never agree that women can replace a man's lead.
As for getting more men into tango...well, this is a problem for every style of dance and for every dance class ....whether its tango, salsa, ballroom, jazz or ballet. Men are not accustomed in our culture to be dancers...it's not the "cool" thing to do. We are fortunate in Miami to have many latin cultures here that dancing is a part of their lifestyle, so often our classes are majority men, but being from another part of the country, I understand the dilemma.
In my 6 years of teaching I have discovered there is only one reason (or at least the MAIN reason) why men take dance lessons:
FOR WOMEN!!!
Either
1. They are divorce, widowed, lonely, and want to meet a woman.
2. They think it's a cool new place to try to meet a woman.
3. If they learn, they can go out somewhere to dance to meet a woman.
4. Their girlfriend/wife/female friend is making them.
So women: GO TO CLASS SO THE MEN WILL COME!!!
And women, you think you may not learn anything new in the class? Well...I've been dancing all my life, and I can still learn something new in a dance class...whether it's a new technique, or just a time to practice my technique and follow. Dancing with the bad dancers improves our technique and follow just as well (if not more) than dancing with the good dancers.
So if you want men to come...make sure they know women are there.
Nicole
Miami, FL
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 00:24:43 +0200
From: Petra Starmans <petra.starmans@BEFREE.CH>
Subject: Re: women leading women, women needing men
hello nicole
hello list
> In discussion to women taking on the role of the leader in tango, I agree that
> a woman can often understand the sensitivity of a lead, but being a female
> instructor, I've never agreed that a woman can or should replace the male as
> the leader.
>
> Why? Did we forget the sensuality and the "sexual" energy that is exchanged
> in tango? This is the true feeling of tango. If same gender couples are of
> the same sexual orientation, maybe they can create this energy between them,
> but being a straight female, I have never been able to recreate this energy
> dancing with a woman, as I can dancing with a male. Dancing with a woman lead
> is generally very cold to me, as I see most women leaders as cold
> dancers/leaders. That loses all the truth of the feeling of tango IMHO.
>
I am sorry. But being a straight female instructor, i have to react to this.
I just see this myth of the 'sexual' energy once again pass in front of my
eyes and i wonder about this very narrow (IMHO) interpretation of the
feeling of tango. I do not think this sexual energy often is to be found in
dancing tango. If it is found it can be exciting, addicting, of course. But
for me in the follow a sheer addiction can develop just from the movement,
there can be a sheer addiction just in the concentration transporting you
out of your every day life, there can be a sheer addiction in the sense of
somebody 'carrying' you around like a baby and steering you away from all
obstacles, providing you with all quiet to look into or refind yourself.
this i somehow do connect more with a general allmost parental-like caring.
It might be found dancing with an old milonguero, twice your age, it can be
found with a well-leading, warmhearted woman.
I don't know if that type of intimacy and warmth are less the 'true feeling
of tango'. A lot of us also go there to hug and be hugged.
the sheer addiction of the lead role can be many things as well. i find no
'coldness' inside me when dancing the lead with a woman, if this is a person
i like and/or care for, if the music or the milonga atmosphere open me up.
> Besides, in what I have often witnessed in my experience of watching tango
> dancers...the majority of women I see leading on the floor, don't usually
> dance the woman's part well enough, gracefully enough, or with the sensual
> feeling that the woman should feel in tango well enough to exchange the role
> of the man.
>
I do not share this observation. If i share it, only in the sense i think
all people leading on the floor (men or women) do not dance the woman's part
well enough to be able to lead gracefully ;-).
> Also, there are other reasons why the man has been designated the role of the
> leader. Specifically because generally men are taller and physically stronger
> than women, which helps in most of the combinations and patterns. For more
> interesting ideas on why the man leads, check out this site:
>
> https://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/dance/menlead.html
>
>
A good lead for a great deal of combinations and patterns has nothing to do
with physical strength, only with agility, body control and awareness.
Besides, the 'true feeling of tango' (sorry, i just really dislike that
phrase) has no relationship to the amoount of patterns or combinations the
leader can lead. musicality, the providing of optimum information and care
for the follower, the graceful adapting to the follower's 'reply'.
I would only agree to the above if women were born with homegrown high
heels. because they are responsible for a lot of lead problems when
combinations and patterns are concerned.
> I agree that learning the opposites sex's role (for males/leads and
> females/followers) is good in practice and practicas because it helps to
> understand the response of your partner. But I will never agree that women
> can replace a man's lead.
>
well i do agree that it can replace. I prefer dancing with a woman friend
ready to share a female comradship much above a macho man trying to impress
me with his overt sensuality or sexuality. or the guy for who i am number
100 on a long night or wishing to brush up his cv. or sit and wait and grow
sour because i would like to dance so much. or pester every guy hardly
returning from the dance floor building myself up in front of him.
>
> And women, you think you may not learn anything new in the class? Well...I've
> been dancing all my life, and I can still learn something new in a dance
> class...whether it's a new technique, or just a time to practice my technique
> and follow.
> Dancing with the bad dancers improves our technique and follow
> just as well (if not more) than dancing with the good dancers.
No. Dancing with a bad dancer will not help or allow you to find the
elements inside yourself which build your technique, your posture, your
swiftness or your sensuality/sexuality.. But dancing with a bad dancer might
encourage the bad dancer to stay and become a better one. Dancing with the
bad dancer might be sensual or sexual because he is just your Mr. Right for
the 100 other reasons besides tango. Or the old friend you wanted to become
acquainted with (the true feeling of) tango and who is just so dear to you
that your motivation is not on your own damn progress.
From a certain moment on, i believe a woman needs self-training to become a
better follower. Not necessarily tango but other body disciplines
influencing flexibility and posture.
And yes, taking lead classes.. holding these other women in your arms and
realise how they feel like and why the one is so much more pleasant to dance
with than the other.
There are many things to be received and learned from persons of both
gender. Many life things and many tango things.
Good night from Switzerland
--
Petra Starmans
Neptunstrasse 21
8032 Zürich
tel/fax: + 41 (0)1 262 06 55
e-mail: petra.starmans@befree.ch
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 02:34:12 -0400
From: Nicole Dowell <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: Re: more on women leading women, women needing men
Hello again list, and a special hello to Petra in Switzerland.
Uh-oh, but this discussion has roused one of my most passionate feelings
about dancing and the people out there who call themselves dancers.
Petra wrote:
> I am sorry. But being a straight female instructor, i have to react >to
this. I just see this myth of the 'sexual' energy once again pass >in front
of my eyes and i wonder about this very narrow (IMHO) >interpretation of
the feeling of tango. I do not think this sexual >energy often is to be
found in dancing tango. If it is found it can >be exciting, addicting, of
course. But for me in the follow a sheer >addiction can develop just from
the movement, there can be a sheer >addiction just in the concentration
transporting you out of your >every day life, there can be a sheer
addiction in the sense of >somebody 'carrying' you around like a baby and
steering you away >from all obstacles, providing you with all quiet to look
into or >refind yourself. this i somehow do connect more with a general
>allmost parental-like caring.
MYTH OF SEXUAL ENERGY? What myth? Do you know nothing of the HISTORY of
Tango??? It was always about SEX. Remember how it originated in the
BROTHELS?? Well, what do the brothels provide? ALL Afro/Latin dances (and
Tango is an Afro/latin dance) create a sexual energy...and if you've never
felt this, you've never felt the "truth" of these dances and where and from
what they originated in the first place.
I've never thought of tango as someone "carrying me around like a baby".
Yes, there's a passive energy for a woman...but not THAT passive. I would
definately suggest you read The Tao of Tango by Joanna Seigmann, and
actually LISTEN to the music sometime not just walk through the
patterns...and maybe even find a new man to dance with. If I wanted a
parental-like caring feeling while dancing, I'd choose a less passionate
form of dance, like ballet or modern.
I am so glad to be in a city filled with Argentinians who understand the
true sense of the dance and the music of tango to help me learn what the
true energy that is expressed in tango is. And ask any Argentinian what
that energy is...and I'll assure you they say SEXUAL.
And on another note, Petra responded that:
" Dancing with a bad dancer will not help or allow you to find the
> elements inside yourself which build your technique, your posture, your
swiftness or your sensuality/sexuality.. But dancing with a bad dancer
might encourage the bad dancer to stay and become a better one."
Petra, the last part is true, but one of the MOST IMPORTANT THINGS for a
woman to learn in Tango is BALANCE AND POSTURE. And this is the thing many
women that I have come across DON'T HAVE. One of the first thing I'm told
by most leaders is that I am light as a feather to move...because being a
dancer since I was 5 years old, I have perfect balance. A man should not
feel the weight of the woman, nor should the woman feel the weight of the
man when dancing with him ...even in close embrace, and the only way to
accomplish this by maintaining perfect balance and posture. Dancing with a
bad dancer helps teach yourself to maintain your own balance and posture
tremendously. Going to the milongas is great practice for me. Each lead
will provide me with a different balance to counterbalance with my own..so
it's great practice in working on maintaining my center.
Well, that's all IMHO. Happy dancing to all.
Nicole
>
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:06:41 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: more on women leading women, women needing men
Nicole wrote:
Dancing with a
> bad dancer helps teach yourself to maintain your own balance and posture
> tremendously. Going to the milongas is great practice for me. Each lead
> will provide me with a different balance to counterbalance with my own..so
> it's great practice in working on maintaining my center.
>
Well, this may be a good exercise for you, with your umpteen years of ballet
training and "perfect balance and posture", but I certainly would not
recommend that as a general practise.
Yes, there is something to be said for the woman learning to look good IN
SPITE of who is leading her, but it is also a known fact that dancing can
lead to injury.
I do not care for a man who tries to practise his supposed "apilado" skills
on me, while leaning over and down on me and compressing the discs in my
spine, I do not want to dance with someone using me as a leaning post while
I am balancing on 3 inch heels, putting a major extra strain on my already
strained feet. Been there, done that, and once is enough.
I care for being able to dance the whole evening, and dancing with someone
like the men mentioned above can debilitate me so much that I will have to
sit out a number of dances to recover, or, if I don't, anyway, will not last
for the whole evening without being in pain eventually. I will only dance
with a beginner who I feel worth encouraging, because he is showing some
talent. And with an intermediate who does not have the above mentioned bad
habits while thinking he is an advanced dancer.
In response to Evan's posting:
"If anything, the role of the follower requires much finer and more
developed motor skills than that of the lead. Consider this: In a given
evening of social dancing, a lead basically leads the same five or ten
things over and over again with every follow he dances with. Follows, on
the other hand, experience a completely new set of five or ten things
with each new lead she dances with. The sensitivity and physical control
required to respond reliably and musically to thousands of subtly
different movements led by hundreds of different men of varying
abilities is daunting."
Yes, the better the posture and balance of the follower is, the cleaner her
ochos, the more refined her walk, the better a follower she will be, to
anybody. It is not like one has to think about "a completely new set of 5 or
10 things with each new lead", without enough technical finesse a woman can
follow almost any move without thinkihng about it, as long as she maintains
the connection, and the man leads clearly. The other thing is that those "5
or 10 new things" are rarely unfamiliar material, they can be easily
recognized, it is just more of the same basic elements put together in a
different combination. But yes, following the moves exactly in the way every
individual man leads them takes years of training.
Meanwhile, some men have told me, that they also dance differently with
every woman. It is the man's task to make every woman look beautiful as a
dancer, in a way, that suits her particular way of moving. So I doubt it,
that better leaders will "basically lead the same 5 or 10 things over and
over again with every follower they dance with."
Another point: the man has to adjust his frame to every woman he dances
with. And I have danced with men occasionally, who were literally screwed up
by the woman they danced with before me, and took a while to recover their
usual proper posture.
There is a chapter in a German book on tango, titled:
"Tango- for women, a lack of men
for men, a lack in themselves...."
Astrid
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:22:40 +0200
From: Capella Solo <MissyLaMotte@GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: more on women leading women, women needing men
Hello all,
I have been following the various threads about women dancing with women
with growing interest. It is amazing how emotional the responses get and how
different and strong the opinions are on the subject.
I am fortunate enough to dance in a small but well developed tango community
in Germany where there are as many men as women dancing, at the classes and
practicas as well as at the milongas. Therefore no woman here 'needs' to
dance with a man if she does not want to. Still you see women dancing together at
the milongas.
I agree that there is (or at least can be) a wonderful sexual aspect to
dancing tango. I remember a few dances with men that I would not want to have
missed for mainly that reason. Maybe those are even the most memorable and
wonderful tangos I had at all. But there are still enough other aspects to the
dance (and to a milonga as a social event) that are also highly enjoyable and
which I can find when dancing with a woman as well as with a man.
What makes a dance special to me is when I agree with my partner (be it man
or woman) physically as well as emotionally on what this dance is for us at
that moment. Sometimes I do not want all this dramatic, highly emotional 'give
yourself to your partner and the music completely' stuff. I just want to
play, to laugh and to have fun. Or I just enjoy that a dance works out really
well on the technical side, that my partner and I are suddenly able to perform
steps together well that always have seem difficult to me before. Those
things can happen when I dance with a woman as well as with a man.
Those are not the 'perfect' tangos we all look and hope for most of the
time. But they are still wonderful experiences and make a joyful and pleasant
evening. I will much rather have a bunch of those little playful and technically
interesting dances than wait for the perfect, dramatic and sexually
inspiring 'once in a lifetime' experience to come along.
Have fun,
Capella
--
GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
https://www.gmx.net
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:15:27 +0200
From: Petra Starmans <petra.starmans@BEFREE.CH>
Subject: Re: more on women leading women, women needing men
Hello list
Hello Nicole
I sent this mail this morning, but it bounced and so did not appear in the
list. Nicole received my personal copy to her, and she has already replied
on it throught the list ('Essence of Tango').
I resend my mail so you can see what she reacted to and put things in right
order again. Sorry for the mess.
Not such a great day for argument, I hope all out there are well.
> Hello again list, and a special hello to Petra in Switzerland.
>
> Uh-oh, but this discussion has roused one of my most passionate feelings
> about dancing and the people out there who call themselves dancers.
>
Sounds like a personal topic. Especially when CAPITALS need to be used.
You are correct that I belong to the people who call themselves dancers. Not
because I did ballet from 5 year on. Because I dance tango for 10 years now.
Because I do other dance-related body work to further my dancing. Because I
spent these 10 years in milongas,on festivals, in theatres on a very regular
basis. Dancing, discussing, observing, listening, teaching, organising and
dj-ing.
> Petra wrote:
>> I am sorry. But being a straight female instructor, i have to react >to
> this. I just see this myth of the 'sexual' energy once again pass >in front
> of my eyes and i wonder about this very narrow (IMHO) >interpretation of
> the feeling of tango. I do not think this sexual >energy often is to be
> found in dancing tango. If it is found it can >be exciting, addicting, of
> course. But for me in the follow a sheer >addiction can develop just from
> the movement, there can be a sheer >addiction just in the concentration
> transporting you out of your >every day life, there can be a sheer
> addiction in the sense of >somebody 'carrying' you around like a baby and
> steering you away >from all obstacles, providing you with all quiet to look
> into or >refind yourself. this i somehow do connect more with a general
>> allmost parental-like caring.
>
> MYTH OF SEXUAL ENERGY? What myth? Do you know nothing of the HISTORY of
> Tango??? It was always about SEX. Remember how it originated in the
> BROTHELS?? Well, what do the brothels provide? ALL Afro/Latin dances (and
> Tango is an Afro/latin dance) create a sexual energy...and if you've never
> felt this, you've never felt the "truth" of these dances and where and from
> what they originated in the first place.
>
Wow. Did I say I never felt this? Do you who never saw me (or danced with me
;-) ) say I am cold / frigid ?
And are you sure brothels only provide sex?
> I've never thought of tango as someone "carrying me around like a baby".
> Yes, there's a passive energy for a woman...but not THAT passive. I would
> definately suggest you read The Tao of Tango by Joanna Seigmann, and
> actually LISTEN to the music sometime not just walk through the
> patterns...and maybe even find a new man to dance with.
Thanks for the suggestions. I am by no means a passive dancer. I am pretty
pretty active, much more so than most leaders care for or are used to. And
you greatly insult me when you suggest I do not listen to the music or am
just walking through patterns, that observation has nothing to do with me as
a dancer. I am not hanging on my man and just let myself be taken care off,
my weight and bad axis inclusive.
If my words give you that impression,alas!
But I would never get it into my mind to suggest things about your quality
of dancing.
After dancing for 10 years with so many men I just wanted to suggest that
sensuality can come from many places and that I do not want nor expect every
dance to be a sexual one and I do not want to dismiss every dance which is
not sexual as a dance not very worth dancing, untruthful, not 'tango'.
> If I wanted a
> parental-like caring feeling while dancing, I'd choose a less passionate
> form of dance, like ballet or modern.
I just mentioned some further aspects of the dance. Sometimes I want the
'sexuality', sometimes I want the parental-like caring, sometimes I want
both, and sometimes I do not 'want' so much or have no
fixed-mind-on-the-fix-i-need but things develop on the spot in the very
moment in the one or other direction, i cannot foresay the mood I or my
partner is in.
I tried to address a transcendental quality. And a social quality.
In certain dances with the men of personal friends i can also decide to
actively steer away from the sexuality and still have a very rewarding tango
experience.
>
> I am so glad to be in a city filled with Argentinians who understand the
> true sense of the dance and the music of tango to help me learn what the
> true energy that is expressed in tango is. And ask any Argentinian what
> that energy is...and I'll assure you they say SEXUAL.
>
I do my own share of talking to and dancing with Argentinians. I am not
sosure they all say 'sexual'. Nor do I wish to see their opinion as the
great wisdom only.
And of course 'sexuality sells'.
>
> And on another note, Petra responded that:
> " Dancing with a bad dancer will not help or allow you to find the
>> elements inside yourself which build your technique, your posture, your
> swiftness or your sensuality/sexuality.. But dancing with a bad dancer
> might encourage the bad dancer to stay and become a better one."
>
> Petra, the last part is true, but one of the MOST IMPORTANT THINGS for a
> woman to learn in Tango is BALANCE AND POSTURE. And this is the thing many
> women that I have come across DON'T HAVE. One of the first thing I'm told
> by most leaders is that I am light as a feather to move...because being a
> dancer since I was 5 years old, I have perfect balance.
Nicole, I am not going to list here what dancers tell me about my dance
qualities. Lucky you that you have your heavenliness written all over you.
>A man should not
> feel the weight of the woman, nor should the woman feel the weight of the
> man when dancing with him ...even in close embrace, and the only way to
> accomplish this by maintaining perfect balance and posture. Dancing with a
> bad dancer helps teach yourself to maintain your own balance and posture
> tremendously. Going to the milongas is great practice for me. Each lead
> will provide me with a different balance to counterbalance with my own..so
> it's great practice in working on maintaining my center.
>
The balance and posture issue is of enormous importance. Achieving better
balance, better posture is a personal body work, that is my personal
conviction.
Dancing with bad dancers you can assess how well developed it is, how much
'counteraction' you are able to provide (and at what cost, be it the aches
several other women already addressed, be it the being rather disturbingly
ripped away from your physical and emotional centering). But to incorporate
the balance feeling into your body memory, your body will profit from
practicing in situations where you can feel it works. As you did ballet for
so long, you personally have developed that feeling long time ago, before
doing tango.
Teaching people with less body consciousness and merely getting them to
sense how they use their body elements when dancing, and then to help them
change it, that is a more challenging issue.
> Well, that's all IMHO. Happy dancing to all.
>
Leave out the H in IMHO. It does not reflect what you wrote.
I could write even longer but...
Happy dancing to all who call themselves dancers and special thanks to the
women responding warmly to me off-list.
Petra
--
Petra Starmans
Design, Konzept und Beratung
Neptunstrasse 21
8032 Zürich
tel/fax: + 41 (0)1 262 06 55
mobile: + 41 (0)79 703 26 64
e-mail: petra@starmans.ch
--
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:10:09 -0300
From: la guacha <lamasguacha@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: more on women leading women, women needing men
Nicole writes::
>MYTH OF SEXUAL ENERGY? What myth? Do you know nothing of the HISTORY of
>Tango??? It was always about SEX. Remember how it originated in the
>BROTHELS?? Well, what do the brothels provide? ALL Afro/Latin dances (and
>Tango is an Afro/latin dance) create a sexual energy...and if you've never
>felt this, you've never felt the "truth" of these dances and where and from
>what they originated in the first place...
I've never thought of tango as someone "carrying me around like a baby".
If I wanted a parental-like caring feeling while dancing, I'd choose a
less passionate
>form of dance, like ballet or modern.
I am wondering if Nicole has sex with every man she dances with. Or even
wants to. I am wondering how many times Nicole and a male partner have
successfully translated this sexual energy from the dance floor to the bed.
More often than not - it does not translate!
I am wondering if Nicole is aware that sex in the Brothels is WORK for women
and a poor substitute for intimacy for men. I am also wondering if Nicole
is aware of all the passionate sex that goes on in the ballet and modern
dance world.
>I am so glad to be in a city filled with Argentinians who understand the
>true sense of the dance and the music of tango to help me learn what the
>true energy that is expressed in tango is. And ask any Argentinian what
>that energy is...and I'll assure you they say SEXUAL.
I am also glad that I live in a city filled with so many Argentines that it
is possible to get an Argentine perspective other than "let's go to the
milonga to pick up a chick!"
the milongas are many things to many people. To state that the energy is
only and purely sexual equates the tango with an empty sexual encounter with
a stranger. Devoid of meaning, tenderness, sensuality and love. This
viewpoint denies the beauty and richness of the dance.
-la guacha
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:25:59 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Women leading men
Karen Corriea wrote:
"Another subject - When follower and leader are in
agreement to be
sensitive to the followers initiative to add her own
creative
improvisations within the dance. I don't mean
adornments, but actually taking the
lead for a moment or longer."
Would you please elaborate upon the last statement?
I've always been led to believe that the concept of
women leading men was anathema in the tango culture.
What do you do and how do you do it when you "take the
lead", and what effect does it have on your partner?
Luda
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:57:14 -0800
From: Jim Maes <dancetango@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Women leading men
At 08:25 AM 11/14/2002 -0800, you wrote:
Karen Corriea wrote:
>"Another subject - When follower and leader are in
>agreement to be
>sensitive to the followers initiative to add her own
>creative
>improvisations within the dance. I don't mean
>adornments, but actually taking the
>lead for a moment or longer."
I'm back :) :)
There are many women that are better leads than most men. Ask any man
that's danced with Mariela Franganillo (
https://www.tejastango.com/workshop_mariela.html ) She's incredibly feminine
with power, and skill. I've seen her and experienced her taking the lead
away from even very strong male leaders. Do men want to continue to control
(lead) because they are afraid of the power of women? Maybe it's good to
remember that women have a different sensitivity than men. Personally I
believe that it's a good thing to learn the other part. It sometimes helps
to understand what our partner is feeling. Like most things in life, when
they are new, it takes time to develop into full form. There is (since the
womens' movement) a trend towards understand our opposites. Men finding
their feminine side, women expressing masculinity. Some come to a balance,
some don't. There are cases, of men that are "New age wimps" or "tyrants",
and women that are too much into control "dominant". It seems that women
have an easier time being masculine, without criticism from their own
gender. Men on the other hand are SO afraid of homosexuality that they
often can't show sensitivity.
We are all afraid of intimacy.
>Would you please elaborate upon the last statement?
>I've always been led to believe that the concept of
>women leading men was anathema in the tango culture.
>What do you do and how do you do it when you "take the
>lead", and what effect does it have on your partner?
Ask Mariela
It effect different partners differently. I like it, I also like a woman
that can get on top. Who wants the responsibility for everything? Not me. I
can barely take responsibility for my own life..
****see Jim standing over a huge cauldron, stirring with a gleam and a
cackle. Now hold your nose and take a big gulp of magic. Your mother would
say "It's good for you****
blah blah ya de ya
Jim
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:29:48 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Women leading men
Karen Corriea wrote:
>I've always been led to believe that the concept of
>women leading men was anathema in the tango culture.
>What do you do and how do you do it when you "take the
>lead", and what effect does it have on your partner?
I have danced with a few women, Mariela Franganillo
<https://www.tejastango.com/mariela.html> most notable among them, who are
quite capable of taking over the lead without back leading and without
giving up the woman's position in the dance. Their ability to do so comes
from a knowledge of both the leader's and follower's parts and how they fit
together. The result is a much more collaborative dance.
In general, women (following) are in charge of the timing of their
movements during turns. Dancing with a man (leading) who waits allows the
women to add their own elements to the dance. Usually these are in the
form of adornments. But if the man (leading) provides enought space in the
dance, some followers can take more initiative and cocreate the movements.
It takes the dance to completely different level.
With best regards (from Texas),
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:33:28 +0100
From: Chris Luethen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Women leading men
On 14 Nov 2002 at 15:29, Stephen Brown wrote:
> It takes the dance to completely different level.
come dancing to the netherlands ... to exprerience this feeling quite
a lot of times!
tango has gone further, behind the classical rules & figures of the
bs.as. salons (nothing against!) ... and once again it's europe again
where this process is - contineously - happening.
christian
