4479 The intellectual sophism of Tango
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:07:23 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] The intellectual sophism of Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I have always found it interesting to listen to people who don't know a
thing about what they are talking about. They propose to be an expert
but have never had the experience or knowlege it takes to be a real
expert. I experienced it my 25 years in the computer business. It is an
interesting parallel to find it here on this forum. It is one thing to
express an opinion, it is another to bully people into accepting that
your opinion is the right one regardless of whether it is based on fact
or your own emotions. Funny thing about all those "computer guys" who
told me I was wrong and didn't understand how to run a business...they
all went bankrupt.
It doesn't matter if you dance tango 4 years, 10, or 20. It does not
make you an expert. It doesn't mean you know how to dance. It just
means you do. The most knowledgeable dancers here in Buenos Aires would
not waste their time with some of the posts I see here. When I have
translated for them, they are sometimes horrified, other times amused,
and most times cannot understand what you guys are thinking when you
write the things you do. (Not all of you)
For me those of you who have NEVER been here except in web experiences
or vicariously through friends are the worst. You impose your opinions
on people as though you have the "inside scoop" of what it is like to
dance here. Then there are those who have been to CITA or on a tour and
went to what we call the "tourist milongas". Others who have come
several times. At least you have been here, even if it was in
controlled settings. I live here, I dance with one of the most highly
regarded dancers and teachers, and I am still learning. I am happy to
give my experiences to people but I would never think to impose my
opinions as the absolute end of conversation I am the best in the world
because I live here and you don't. Nooooo
That being said here are my comments:
Gabriel - a milonguero is as stated by someone else - it is someone who
lives eats and breathes tango. They live for that one dance. In days
gone by the milonguero was a person who slept all day, didn't work, and
chased women - but only those that had money. Someone had to pay for
those shoes. Today's milonguero is updated a bit. Many have danced
their whole life, but they also worked. When they retired they began to
spend their times in the milongas. Others like Roberto Dentone and Dany
Garcia have been able to successfully teach and perform. I would call
neither lazy. While both appreciate the female form and are generous
with compliments, they also are not into chasing every woman around the
milonga. Their whole life revolves around tango. I asked Roberto the
last time he went to the movies and he said he couldn't remember, maybe
20 years ago. When I told him I would take him, he wanted to know A)
Why and B)Were we going to see a tango movie.
To my knowledge I have NEVER heard the word milonguero used to describe
anyone except as one who dances tango. Before I danced tango I danced
salsa. In the 10 years I danced salsa I NEVER heard any where in Latin
America the word milonguero. Salsero yes, milonguero no. Milonguero
comes from one who attends the milongas. Why would some Colombian use
it to describe a Colombian dancing salsa or vallanato. You make
absolutely no sense.
I know many local stage dancers as well as social dancers. Most stage
dancers are horrible to dance with. They have no lead, they are heavy.
Why? Because stage tango is choreographed. You have two people who are
dancing, and it just happens to be together. Most stage dancers almost
never come to milongas to dance. They have no interest in it. When I
have gone with my friend Sergio who dances in many of the shows here he
has no clue about who any one is. I point out people like Tete, Dany,
and he has not heard of them. They are performers who dance in whatever
show to make a living. Why do you think Mimi Santapa is hired to work
with them? She has to teach them to move in the shows to resemble a
tango dancer, and not a jazz or ballet dancer. Unfortunately there are
many people who think that if you can kick your leg up high and sweep it
around the floor that makes you a good tango dancer....
You guys and all your titles for the tango that is danced here. We have
Milonguero (short choppy steps, a bent embrace) Salon (embrace media
pecho with longer steps, Tango Ballet (what you guys call stage,
performance, or show or whatever) which is NOT danced in the milongas
except by foreigners who try to impress the Argentines, but in reality
piss them off, and then nuevo (or what they call here tango for
export). That is it. You never hear people saying "Oh gee, you dance
apilado upside down, did you learn that in the bathtub? I prefer to
dance salon fanstasia that I learned from last week's visiting expert.
Regardless we all seem to co-exist on a dance floor together. Those
that cannot are elbowed to the middle or in some instances asked to
leave the floor.
Banging into people. I have danced with Roberto for a year and a half.
NEVER ONCE has he ever banged into anyone on the dance floor. NOT ONCE.
When I dance with him I trust him completely. His navigation skills are
mind blowing. The few choques that have happened have been other
dancers who have danced backwards or some stupid idiot woman doing a
boleo. In every private lesson with every male dancer he teaches about
navigation as part of the dance.
Julio Balmaceda a milonguero? Bite your tongue. He dances and teaches
tango, but he is not a milonguero, nor is Ernesto. But Papa Miguel?
Yes, of course. Facundo? Haven't seen him at a milonga in maybe 5
years. You are not a milonguero simply because you are Argentine and
you dance tango or because you are old.
Give up my 10.5 cm shoes? Are you out of your mind? No way. My shoes
are comfortable and I dance well in them. Dancers without balance or
axis wobble on their shoes and complain about feet that hurt. Now that
I am able to practice a little with Roberto, I HATE dancing in my flat
slippers or socks. I can't wait to dance in heels again.
All this being said, if you want to experience Buenos Aires, then please
come without your preconceived notions of what you think tango is here.
Come with an open mind.
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:48:35 -0400
From: joanneprochaska@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The intellectual sophism of Tango
To: dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com, tango-L@mit.edu
Dear Debbi,
Well put.
Thank you,
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thu, 13 Jul 2006 12:07 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] The intellectual sophism of Tango
I have always found it interesting to listen to people who don't know a
thing about what they are talking about. They propose to be an expert
but have never had the experience or knowlege it takes to be a real
expert. I experienced it my 25 years in the computer business. It is an
interesting parallel to find it here on this forum. It is one thing to
express an opinion, it is another to bully people into accepting that
your opinion is the right one regardless of whether it is based on fact
or your own emotions. Funny thing about all those "computer guys" who
told me I was wrong and didn't understand how to run a business...they
all went bankrupt.
It doesn't matter if you dance tango 4 years, 10, or 20. It does not
make you an expert. It doesn't mean you know how to dance. It just
means you do. The most knowledgeable dancers here in Buenos Aires would
not waste their time with some of the posts I see here. When I have
translated for them, they are sometimes horrified, other times amused,
and most times cannot understand what you guys are thinking when you
write the things you do. (Not all of you)
For me those of you who have NEVER been here except in web experiences
or vicariously through friends are the worst. You impose your opinions
on people as though you have the "inside scoop" of what it is like to
dance here. Then there are those who have been to CITA or on a tour and
went to what we call the "tourist milongas". Others who have come
several times. At least you have been here, even if it was in
controlled settings. I live here, I dance with one of the most highly
regarded dancers and teachers, and I am still learning. I am happy to
give my experiences to people but I would never think to impose my
opinions as the absolute end of conversation I am the best in the world
because I live here and you don't. Nooooo
That being said here are my comments:
Gabriel - a milonguero is as stated by someone else - it is someone who
lives eats and breathes tango. They live for that one dance. In days
gone by the milonguero was a person who slept all day, didn't work, and
chased women - but only those that had money. Someone had to pay for
those shoes. Today's milonguero is updated a bit. Many have danced
their whole life, but they also worked. When they retired they began to
spend their times in the milongas. Others like Roberto Dentone and Dany
Garcia have been able to successfully teach and perform. I would call
neither lazy. While both appreciate the female form and are generous
with compliments, they also are not into chasing every woman around the
milonga. Their whole life revolves around tango. I asked Roberto the
last time he went to the movies and he said he couldn't remember, maybe
20 years ago. When I told him I would take him, he wanted to know A)
Why and B)Were we going to see a tango movie.
To my knowledge I have NEVER heard the word milonguero used to describe
anyone except as one who dances tango. Before I danced tango I danced
salsa. In the 10 years I danced salsa I NEVER heard any where in Latin
America the word milonguero. Salsero yes, milonguero no. Milonguero
comes from one who attends the milongas. Why would some Colombian use
it to describe a Colombian dancing salsa or vallanato. You make
absolutely no sense.
I know many local stage dancers as well as social dancers. Most stage
dancers are horrible to dance with. They have no lead, they are heavy.
Why? Because stage tango is choreographed. You have two people who are
dancing, and it just happens to be together. Most stage dancers almost
never come to milongas to dance. They have no interest in it. When I
have gone with my friend Sergio who dances in many of the shows here he
has no clue about who any one is. I point out people like Tete, Dany,
and he has not heard of them. They are performers who dance in whatever
show to make a living. Why do you think Mimi Santapa is hired to work
with them? She has to teach them to move in the shows to resemble a
tango dancer, and not a jazz or ballet dancer. Unfortunately there are
many people who think that if you can kick your leg up high and sweep it
around the floor that makes you a good tango dancer....
You guys and all your titles for the tango that is danced here. We have
Milonguero (short choppy steps, a bent embrace) Salon (embrace media
pecho with longer steps, Tango Ballet (what you guys call stage,
performance, or show or whatever) which is NOT danced in the milongas
except by foreigners who try to impress the Argentines, but in reality
piss them off, and then nuevo (or what they call here tango for
export). That is it. You never hear people saying "Oh gee, you dance
apilado upside down, did you learn that in the bathtub? I prefer to
dance salon fanstasia that I learned from last week's visiting expert.
Regardless we all seem to co-exist on a dance floor together. Those
that cannot are elbowed to the middle or in some instances asked to
leave the floor.
Banging into people. I have danced with Roberto for a year and a half.
NEVER ONCE has he ever banged into anyone on the dance floor. NOT ONCE.
When I dance with him I trust him completely. His navigation skills are
mind blowing. The few choques that have happened have been other
dancers who have danced backwards or some stupid idiot woman doing a
boleo. In every private lesson with every male dancer he teaches about
navigation as part of the dance.
Julio Balmaceda a milonguero? Bite your tongue. He dances and teaches
tango, but he is not a milonguero, nor is Ernesto. But Papa Miguel?
Yes, of course. Facundo? Haven't seen him at a milonga in maybe 5
years. You are not a milonguero simply because you are Argentine and
you dance tango or because you are old.
Give up my 10.5 cm shoes? Are you out of your mind? No way. My shoes
are comfortable and I dance well in them. Dancers without balance or
axis wobble on their shoes and complain about feet that hurt. Now that
I am able to practice a little with Roberto, I HATE dancing in my flat
slippers or socks. I can't wait to dance in heels again.
All this being said, if you want to experience Buenos Aires, then please
come without your preconceived notions of what you think tango is here.
Come with an open mind.
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 01:44:17 -0700
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The intellectual sophism of Tango
To: "Deby Novitz" <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Wrong, Deby. "Milonga" means "Party", happiness , laughter ....Get it?
"por milonga y por llanto " Ever heard that expression?
When partying and in sadness..would be a rough translation....
I grew up to be 35 in and travelled/lived all over Latinamerica . The words
"milonga "and "milonguero/a" are not exclusive of Argentina or of a Tango
context.
Of course, you live in BsAs , and as a porte?a that you are now, you are
trained to believe that many things or cultural icons or words "belong" to
you. Like "vos", like empanadas, asado, mate or dulce de leche, even Gardel
or Tango itself.
And even if you were correct, that is not the point.
The point is that the word "Milonguero " has absolutely nothing to do with
the style of Tango you dance. Shoin.
Gabriel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 9:07 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] The intellectual sophism of Tango
>I have always found it interesting to listen to people who don't know a
> thing about what they are talking about. They propose to be an expert
> but have never had the experience or knowlege it takes to be a real
> expert. I experienced it my 25 years in the computer business. It is an
> interesting parallel to find it here on this forum. It is one thing to
> express an opinion, it is another to bully people into accepting that
> your opinion is the right one regardless of whether it is based on fact
> or your own emotions. Funny thing about all those "computer guys" who
> told me I was wrong and didn't understand how to run a business...they
> all went bankrupt.
>
> It doesn't matter if you dance tango 4 years, 10, or 20. It does not
> make you an expert. It doesn't mean you know how to dance. It just
> means you do. The most knowledgeable dancers here in Buenos Aires would
> not waste their time with some of the posts I see here. When I have
> translated for them, they are sometimes horrified, other times amused,
> and most times cannot understand what you guys are thinking when you
> write the things you do. (Not all of you)
>
> For me those of you who have NEVER been here except in web experiences
> or vicariously through friends are the worst. You impose your opinions
> on people as though you have the "inside scoop" of what it is like to
> dance here. Then there are those who have been to CITA or on a tour and
> went to what we call the "tourist milongas". Others who have come
> several times. At least you have been here, even if it was in
> controlled settings. I live here, I dance with one of the most highly
> regarded dancers and teachers, and I am still learning. I am happy to
> give my experiences to people but I would never think to impose my
> opinions as the absolute end of conversation I am the best in the world
> because I live here and you don't. Nooooo
>
> That being said here are my comments:
>
> Gabriel - a milonguero is as stated by someone else - it is someone who
> lives eats and breathes tango. They live for that one dance. In days
> gone by the milonguero was a person who slept all day, didn't work, and
> chased women - but only those that had money. Someone had to pay for
> those shoes. Today's milonguero is updated a bit. Many have danced
> their whole life, but they also worked. When they retired they began to
> spend their times in the milongas. Others like Roberto Dentone and Dany
> Garcia have been able to successfully teach and perform. I would call
> neither lazy. While both appreciate the female form and are generous
> with compliments, they also are not into chasing every woman around the
> milonga. Their whole life revolves around tango. I asked Roberto the
> last time he went to the movies and he said he couldn't remember, maybe
> 20 years ago. When I told him I would take him, he wanted to know A)
> Why and B)Were we going to see a tango movie.
>
> To my knowledge I have NEVER heard the word milonguero used to describe
> anyone except as one who dances tango. Before I danced tango I danced
> salsa. In the 10 years I danced salsa I NEVER heard any where in Latin
> America the word milonguero. Salsero yes, milonguero no. Milonguero
> comes from one who attends the milongas. Why would some Colombian use
> it to describe a Colombian dancing salsa or vallanato. You make
> absolutely no sense.
>
> I know many local stage dancers as well as social dancers. Most stage
> dancers are horrible to dance with. They have no lead, they are heavy.
> Why? Because stage tango is choreographed. You have two people who are
> dancing, and it just happens to be together. Most stage dancers almost
> never come to milongas to dance. They have no interest in it. When I
> have gone with my friend Sergio who dances in many of the shows here he
> has no clue about who any one is. I point out people like Tete, Dany,
> and he has not heard of them. They are performers who dance in whatever
> show to make a living. Why do you think Mimi Santapa is hired to work
> with them? She has to teach them to move in the shows to resemble a
> tango dancer, and not a jazz or ballet dancer. Unfortunately there are
> many people who think that if you can kick your leg up high and sweep it
> around the floor that makes you a good tango dancer....
>
> You guys and all your titles for the tango that is danced here. We have
> Milonguero (short choppy steps, a bent embrace) Salon (embrace media
> pecho with longer steps, Tango Ballet (what you guys call stage,
> performance, or show or whatever) which is NOT danced in the milongas
> except by foreigners who try to impress the Argentines, but in reality
> piss them off, and then nuevo (or what they call here tango for
> export). That is it. You never hear people saying "Oh gee, you dance
> apilado upside down, did you learn that in the bathtub? I prefer to
> dance salon fanstasia that I learned from last week's visiting expert.
> Regardless we all seem to co-exist on a dance floor together. Those
> that cannot are elbowed to the middle or in some instances asked to
> leave the floor.
>
> Banging into people. I have danced with Roberto for a year and a half.
> NEVER ONCE has he ever banged into anyone on the dance floor. NOT ONCE.
> When I dance with him I trust him completely. His navigation skills are
> mind blowing. The few choques that have happened have been other
> dancers who have danced backwards or some stupid idiot woman doing a
> boleo. In every private lesson with every male dancer he teaches about
> navigation as part of the dance.
>
> Julio Balmaceda a milonguero? Bite your tongue. He dances and teaches
> tango, but he is not a milonguero, nor is Ernesto. But Papa Miguel?
> Yes, of course. Facundo? Haven't seen him at a milonga in maybe 5
> years. You are not a milonguero simply because you are Argentine and
> you dance tango or because you are old.
>
> Give up my 10.5 cm shoes? Are you out of your mind? No way. My shoes
> are comfortable and I dance well in them. Dancers without balance or
> axis wobble on their shoes and complain about feet that hurt. Now that
> I am able to practice a little with Roberto, I HATE dancing in my flat
> slippers or socks. I can't wait to dance in heels again.
>
> All this being said, if you want to experience Buenos Aires, then please
> come without your preconceived notions of what you think tango is here.
> Come with an open mind.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2006 02:03:40 -0700
From: "El Mundo del Tango" <mail@elmundodeltango.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The intellectual sophism of Tango
To: "Deby Novitz" <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
<<Julio Balmaceda a milonguero? Bite your tongue. He dances and teaches
tango, but he is not a milonguero, nor is Ernesto.>>
Both Ernesto and Julio consider themselves milongueros and with all due
respect Deby, I believe them , not you.
I have seen Julio dancing non stop in milongas for hours after teaching all
day, perfectly on the music, on a square foot, perfectly on the line of
dance, and with beginner partners, not only Corina or other pro ladies.
He does not dance the so called "milonguero style", of course, but he is a
milonguero.
<<Facundo? .. Haven't seen him at a milonga in maybe 5
years. >>
I know him well. He goes all the time. No to downtown though. It is a big
city..you know that.....
<<You are not a milonguero simply because you are Argentine and you dance
tango or because you are old. >>
I forgot...I need approval from Christopher, you and your friends....But
all sarcasm aside, you are correct. I have never said anything about being
Argentine or old.
I said a "milonguero" is a social dancer, regardless of style danced.
Gabriel
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 9:07 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] The intellectual sophism of Tango
>I have always found it interesting to listen to people who don't know a
> thing about what they are talking about. They propose to be an expert
> but have never had the experience or knowlege it takes to be a real
> expert. I experienced it my 25 years in the computer business. It is an
> interesting parallel to find it here on this forum. It is one thing to
> express an opinion, it is another to bully people into accepting that
> your opinion is the right one regardless of whether it is based on fact
> or your own emotions. Funny thing about all those "computer guys" who
> told me I was wrong and didn't understand how to run a business...they
> all went bankrupt.
>
> It doesn't matter if you dance tango 4 years, 10, or 20. It does not
> make you an expert. It doesn't mean you know how to dance. It just
> means you do. The most knowledgeable dancers here in Buenos Aires would
> not waste their time with some of the posts I see here. When I have
> translated for them, they are sometimes horrified, other times amused,
> and most times cannot understand what you guys are thinking when you
> write the things you do. (Not all of you)
>
> For me those of you who have NEVER been here except in web experiences
> or vicariously through friends are the worst. You impose your opinions
> on people as though you have the "inside scoop" of what it is like to
> dance here. Then there are those who have been to CITA or on a tour and
> went to what we call the "tourist milongas". Others who have come
> several times. At least you have been here, even if it was in
> controlled settings. I live here, I dance with one of the most highly
> regarded dancers and teachers, and I am still learning. I am happy to
> give my experiences to people but I would never think to impose my
> opinions as the absolute end of conversation I am the best in the world
> because I live here and you don't. Nooooo
>
> That being said here are my comments:
>
> Gabriel - a milonguero is as stated by someone else - it is someone who
> lives eats and breathes tango. They live for that one dance. In days
> gone by the milonguero was a person who slept all day, didn't work, and
> chased women - but only those that had money. Someone had to pay for
> those shoes. Today's milonguero is updated a bit. Many have danced
> their whole life, but they also worked. When they retired they began to
> spend their times in the milongas. Others like Roberto Dentone and Dany
> Garcia have been able to successfully teach and perform. I would call
> neither lazy. While both appreciate the female form and are generous
> with compliments, they also are not into chasing every woman around the
> milonga. Their whole life revolves around tango. I asked Roberto the
> last time he went to the movies and he said he couldn't remember, maybe
> 20 years ago. When I told him I would take him, he wanted to know A)
> Why and B)Were we going to see a tango movie.
>
> To my knowledge I have NEVER heard the word milonguero used to describe
> anyone except as one who dances tango. Before I danced tango I danced
> salsa. In the 10 years I danced salsa I NEVER heard any where in Latin
> America the word milonguero. Salsero yes, milonguero no. Milonguero
> comes from one who attends the milongas. Why would some Colombian use
> it to describe a Colombian dancing salsa or vallanato. You make
> absolutely no sense.
>
> I know many local stage dancers as well as social dancers. Most stage
> dancers are horrible to dance with. They have no lead, they are heavy.
> Why? Because stage tango is choreographed. You have two people who are
> dancing, and it just happens to be together. Most stage dancers almost
> never come to milongas to dance. They have no interest in it. When I
> have gone with my friend Sergio who dances in many of the shows here he
> has no clue about who any one is. I point out people like Tete, Dany,
> and he has not heard of them. They are performers who dance in whatever
> show to make a living. Why do you think Mimi Santapa is hired to work
> with them? She has to teach them to move in the shows to resemble a
> tango dancer, and not a jazz or ballet dancer. Unfortunately there are
> many people who think that if you can kick your leg up high and sweep it
> around the floor that makes you a good tango dancer....
>
> You guys and all your titles for the tango that is danced here. We have
> Milonguero (short choppy steps, a bent embrace) Salon (embrace media
> pecho with longer steps, Tango Ballet (what you guys call stage,
> performance, or show or whatever) which is NOT danced in the milongas
> except by foreigners who try to impress the Argentines, but in reality
> piss them off, and then nuevo (or what they call here tango for
> export). That is it. You never hear people saying "Oh gee, you dance
> apilado upside down, did you learn that in the bathtub? I prefer to
> dance salon fanstasia that I learned from last week's visiting expert.
> Regardless we all seem to co-exist on a dance floor together. Those
> that cannot are elbowed to the middle or in some instances asked to
> leave the floor.
>
> Banging into people. I have danced with Roberto for a year and a half.
> NEVER ONCE has he ever banged into anyone on the dance floor. NOT ONCE.
> When I dance with him I trust him completely. His navigation skills are
> mind blowing. The few choques that have happened have been other
> dancers who have danced backwards or some stupid idiot woman doing a
> boleo. In every private lesson with every male dancer he teaches about
> navigation as part of the dance.
>
> Julio Balmaceda a milonguero? Bite your tongue. He dances and teaches
> tango, but he is not a milonguero, nor is Ernesto. But Papa Miguel?
> Yes, of course. Facundo? Haven't seen him at a milonga in maybe 5
> years. You are not a milonguero simply because you are Argentine and
> you dance tango or because you are old.
>
> Give up my 10.5 cm shoes? Are you out of your mind? No way. My shoes
> are comfortable and I dance well in them. Dancers without balance or
> axis wobble on their shoes and complain about feet that hurt. Now that
> I am able to practice a little with Roberto, I HATE dancing in my flat
> slippers or socks. I can't wait to dance in heels again.
>
> All this being said, if you want to experience Buenos Aires, then please
> come without your preconceived notions of what you think tango is here.
> Come with an open mind.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
