318 Women leading
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 07:45:14 -0800
From: Ed Heede <cynthiab7@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Women leading
Ingrid wrote:
" I want to know what other women think about fellow women learning to lead.
.
. and if they find it strange to dance with women who lead. "
In response I would like to put in a vote for women learning to lead. I
agree it helps women who know how to lead to be able to FOLLOW better as do
men that learn how to follow in turn helps them LEAD better.
If there were more women leading and asking other women to dance it wouldn't
be strange anymore. In my opinion it would just give us women MORE chances
to get out on the dance floor and dance! Tango of all dances should not be
gender shy. I ask if men have and can dance together why not women dancing
together? Tango as an art form deserves all the participation it can inspire
and then some.
Thanks for asking,
Cynthia Brown
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 08:26:24 -0800
From: Clay Nelson <claybird@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: A Man's Response to Women Leading
I'm all for women learning to lead (and men learning to follow) and, we
encourage this to happen in our Portland tango community.
However, I would like to focus on Ingrid's suggestion that men ask women to
lead. I love to follow on occasions, but I'm certainly not as good as most
women, and thus it seems a bit unfair to ask a woman (or a man) to lead
me--but then again if I don't ask, I don't get a chance to practice
following. I'd like to know how others feel about this.
Clay Nelson
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 15:29:12 EST
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Women leading
Since most of the responses will be pro on this subject I will interject some
con to enliven the discussion.
My experience is that women do not learn to follow better by learning to
lead. They just learn something about leading. Their following stays the
some. At least they don't show it in their dancing with me or in their
technique as I observe it. Most bounce too much and lead with their arms. The
ones who are good dancers to begin with may learn something, and they should
if they are going to teach it, but the ones who are still having problems
continue to have them. Now they have added even more things to have problems
with. Dancing with each other, either men or women, is fine and if you have
fun doing it then go right ahead but if you are using it for a didactic tool
and shortcut to improve your dancing it won't work. And asking each other
about how they have improved is like preaching to the choir. Let the leaders
be the judge of that. By the same token there are plenty of men who have
learned to improve their leading, quite impressively sometimes, but whose
overall technique and form are still very awkward. Many aspects of the dance
are interrelated but refining one won't necessarily improve the other.
There is also an historical misperception about men leading men. During the
golden age of tango and before, men practiced together mainly because
respectable women weren't allowed out to practice. Men didn't have much
choice. They wanted to impress the women when they did go to the milongas so
they had to practice together. But now in our modern age it is no longer
necessary to practice with each other because it is easy to practice with
women and vice versa.
Most people just don't want to put in the required practice and miles of
walking and following needed to become a good dancer. They would rather
resort to watching videos, taking privates, changing teachers every few
months, taking every workshop that comes to town ( not so bad in some places
but here in New York we have workshops almost bi-weekly) and learning the
partners part instead of doing the boring hard work of practicing the basic
steps. You don't perfect back ochos and molinetes by learning to lead, you
perfect them by practicing them, for months and years, not a few weeks of
classes.
Many "modern" women are uncomfortable about men having all the "control" in a
dance. I personally find the exchange of lead and follow just another gimmick
to sell videos.
If a class is short on one gender or the other than mix it up and give
everyone the opportunity to learn the material but don't assume that by
learning the other part that you will be improving. You will be only adding
more material that you will need to practice, at the expense of the material
that you no longer practice very much because you are too busy with the new
stuff. It's like people who learn too many steps too fast (most people).
Their technique never improves but they build up a huge vocabulary of badly
executed steps.
Cheers,
Charles Roques
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:14:49 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <melinda.bates@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Re: Women leading
----- Original Message -----
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 17:47:53 -0500
From: Melinda Bates <melinda.bates@VERIZON.NET>
Subject: Fw: Re: Women leading
Virginia Gift asked me to forward this to the List.......
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Women leading
..... A word about leading. About a year ago I decided to learn to lead out
> of self defense. I was sitting out too many dances; and my tolerance was
> low for watching those sweet, pretty young things being sought out while
we
> "more mature women" warmed the benches, so to speak.
> I decided that if I learned to be a good leader, there would be
enough
> women so that I would need only to sit down when I wanted. That was the
> first phase. Second phase was a surprise when I found that leading was
(for
> me) much more interesting than following--unless the leader was an
> absolutely dreamy dancer. I found it more exciting to be able to be so
> creative and responsible. Then I moved onto the third phase of
appreciation
> of leading--to which you addressed, i.e. being able to dance in any style
I
> wanted. I realized that (for me) the greatest drawback to following was
> the number of dances I needed to suffer through either out of politeness
or
> boredom or desperation.
> As we know, each leader has his very own style and some are not so
> yummy. I decided that if I could learn to lead well, I would ALWAYS be
able
> to dance the style I liked. (Without having to degrade myself by
soliciting
> a dance from one of my favorite partners.)
> I'm finallly getting good and confident, and there are a number of
> women who say they much prefer my leading to many of the men in our
> community. And I love it. I even practice on my own--something I didn't
do
> enough of when I was only a follower.
> I recommend it to you.
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 04:04:03 -0400
From: Nicole Dowell <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: women leading women, women needing men
In discussion to women taking on the role of the leader in tango, I agree that a woman can often understand the sensitivity of a lead, but being a female instructor, I've never agreed that a woman can or should replace the male as the leader.
Why? Did we forget the sensuality and the "sexual" energy that is exchanged in tango? This is the true feeling of tango. If same gender couples are of the same sexual orientation, maybe they can create this energy between them, but being a straight female, I have never been able to recreate this energy dancing with a woman, as I can dancing with a male. Dancing with a woman lead is generally very cold to me, as I see most women leaders as cold dancers/leaders. That loses all the truth of the feeling of tango IMHO.
Besides, in what I have often witnessed in my experience of watching tango dancers...the majority of women I see leading on the floor, don't usually dance the woman's part well enough, gracefully enough, or with the sensual feeling that the woman should feel in tango well enough to exchange the role of the man.
Also, there are other reasons why the man has been designated the role of the leader. Specifically because generally men are taller and physically stronger than women, which helps in most of the combinations and patterns. For more interesting ideas on why the man leads, check out this site:
http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/dance/menlead.html
I agree that learning the opposites sex's role (for males/leads and females/followers) is good in practice and practicas because it helps to understand the response of your partner. But I will never agree that women can replace a man's lead.
As for getting more men into tango...well, this is a problem for every style of dance and for every dance class ....whether its tango, salsa, ballroom, jazz or ballet. Men are not accustomed in our culture to be dancers...it's not the "cool" thing to do. We are fortunate in Miami to have many latin cultures here that dancing is a part of their lifestyle, so often our classes are majority men, but being from another part of the country, I understand the dilemma.
In my 6 years of teaching I have discovered there is only one reason (or at least the MAIN reason) why men take dance lessons:
FOR WOMEN!!!
Either
1. They are divorce, widowed, lonely, and want to meet a woman.
2. They think it's a cool new place to try to meet a woman.
3. If they learn, they can go out somewhere to dance to meet a woman.
4. Their girlfriend/wife/female friend is making them.
So women: GO TO CLASS SO THE MEN WILL COME!!!
And women, you think you may not learn anything new in the class? Well...I've been dancing all my life, and I can still learn something new in a dance class...whether it's a new technique, or just a time to practice my technique and follow. Dancing with the bad dancers improves our technique and follow just as well (if not more) than dancing with the good dancers.
So if you want men to come...make sure they know women are there.
Nicole
Miami, FL
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 00:24:43 +0200
From: Petra Starmans <petra.starmans@BEFREE.CH>
Subject: Re: women leading women, women needing men
hello nicole
hello list
> In discussion to women taking on the role of the leader in tango, I agree that
> a woman can often understand the sensitivity of a lead, but being a female
> instructor, I've never agreed that a woman can or should replace the male as
> the leader.
>
> Why? Did we forget the sensuality and the "sexual" energy that is exchanged
> in tango? This is the true feeling of tango. If same gender couples are of
> the same sexual orientation, maybe they can create this energy between them,
> but being a straight female, I have never been able to recreate this energy
> dancing with a woman, as I can dancing with a male. Dancing with a woman lead
> is generally very cold to me, as I see most women leaders as cold
> dancers/leaders. That loses all the truth of the feeling of tango IMHO.
>
I am sorry. But being a straight female instructor, i have to react to this.
I just see this myth of the 'sexual' energy once again pass in front of my
eyes and i wonder about this very narrow (IMHO) interpretation of the
feeling of tango. I do not think this sexual energy often is to be found in
dancing tango. If it is found it can be exciting, addicting, of course. But
for me in the follow a sheer addiction can develop just from the movement,
there can be a sheer addiction just in the concentration transporting you
out of your every day life, there can be a sheer addiction in the sense of
somebody 'carrying' you around like a baby and steering you away from all
obstacles, providing you with all quiet to look into or refind yourself.
this i somehow do connect more with a general allmost parental-like caring.
It might be found dancing with an old milonguero, twice your age, it can be
found with a well-leading, warmhearted woman.
I don't know if that type of intimacy and warmth are less the 'true feeling
of tango'. A lot of us also go there to hug and be hugged.
the sheer addiction of the lead role can be many things as well. i find no
'coldness' inside me when dancing the lead with a woman, if this is a person
i like and/or care for, if the music or the milonga atmosphere open me up.
> Besides, in what I have often witnessed in my experience of watching tango
> dancers...the majority of women I see leading on the floor, don't usually
> dance the woman's part well enough, gracefully enough, or with the sensual
> feeling that the woman should feel in tango well enough to exchange the role
> of the man.
>
I do not share this observation. If i share it, only in the sense i think
all people leading on the floor (men or women) do not dance the woman's part
well enough to be able to lead gracefully ;-).
> Also, there are other reasons why the man has been designated the role of the
> leader. Specifically because generally men are taller and physically stronger
> than women, which helps in most of the combinations and patterns. For more
> interesting ideas on why the man leads, check out this site:
>
> http://www.staff.ncl.ac.uk/nikolas.lloyd/dance/menlead.html
>
>
A good lead for a great deal of combinations and patterns has nothing to do
with physical strength, only with agility, body control and awareness.
Besides, the 'true feeling of tango' (sorry, i just really dislike that
phrase) has no relationship to the amoount of patterns or combinations the
leader can lead. musicality, the providing of optimum information and care
for the follower, the graceful adapting to the follower's 'reply'.
I would only agree to the above if women were born with homegrown high
heels. because they are responsible for a lot of lead problems when
combinations and patterns are concerned.
> I agree that learning the opposites sex's role (for males/leads and
> females/followers) is good in practice and practicas because it helps to
> understand the response of your partner. But I will never agree that women
> can replace a man's lead.
>
well i do agree that it can replace. I prefer dancing with a woman friend
ready to share a female comradship much above a macho man trying to impress
me with his overt sensuality or sexuality. or the guy for who i am number
100 on a long night or wishing to brush up his cv. or sit and wait and grow
sour because i would like to dance so much. or pester every guy hardly
returning from the dance floor building myself up in front of him.
>
> And women, you think you may not learn anything new in the class? Well...I've
> been dancing all my life, and I can still learn something new in a dance
> class...whether it's a new technique, or just a time to practice my technique
> and follow.
> Dancing with the bad dancers improves our technique and follow
> just as well (if not more) than dancing with the good dancers.
No. Dancing with a bad dancer will not help or allow you to find the
elements inside yourself which build your technique, your posture, your
swiftness or your sensuality/sexuality.. But dancing with a bad dancer might
encourage the bad dancer to stay and become a better one. Dancing with the
bad dancer might be sensual or sexual because he is just your Mr. Right for
the 100 other reasons besides tango. Or the old friend you wanted to become
acquainted with (the true feeling of) tango and who is just so dear to you
that your motivation is not on your own damn progress.
From a certain moment on, i believe a woman needs self-training to become a
better follower. Not necessarily tango but other body disciplines
influencing flexibility and posture.
And yes, taking lead classes.. holding these other women in your arms and
realise how they feel like and why the one is so much more pleasant to dance
with than the other.
There are many things to be received and learned from persons of both
gender. Many life things and many tango things.
Good night from Switzerland
--
Petra Starmans
Neptunstrasse 21
8032 Zürich
tel/fax: + 41 (0)1 262 06 55
e-mail: petra.starmans@befree.ch
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 02:34:12 -0400
From: Nicole Dowell <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: Re: more on women leading women, women needing men
Hello again list, and a special hello to Petra in Switzerland.
Uh-oh, but this discussion has roused one of my most passionate feelings
about dancing and the people out there who call themselves dancers.
Petra wrote:
> I am sorry. But being a straight female instructor, i have to react >to
this. I just see this myth of the 'sexual' energy once again pass >in front
of my eyes and i wonder about this very narrow (IMHO) >interpretation of
the feeling of tango. I do not think this sexual >energy often is to be
found in dancing tango. If it is found it can >be exciting, addicting, of
course. But for me in the follow a sheer >addiction can develop just from
the movement, there can be a sheer >addiction just in the concentration
transporting you out of your >every day life, there can be a sheer
addiction in the sense of >somebody 'carrying' you around like a baby and
steering you away >from all obstacles, providing you with all quiet to look
into or >refind yourself. this i somehow do connect more with a general
>allmost parental-like caring.
MYTH OF SEXUAL ENERGY? What myth? Do you know nothing of the HISTORY of
Tango??? It was always about SEX. Remember how it originated in the
BROTHELS?? Well, what do the brothels provide? ALL Afro/Latin dances (and
Tango is an Afro/latin dance) create a sexual energy...and if you've never
felt this, you've never felt the "truth" of these dances and where and from
what they originated in the first place.
I've never thought of tango as someone "carrying me around like a baby".
Yes, there's a passive energy for a woman...but not THAT passive. I would
definately suggest you read The Tao of Tango by Joanna Seigmann, and
actually LISTEN to the music sometime not just walk through the
patterns...and maybe even find a new man to dance with. If I wanted a
parental-like caring feeling while dancing, I'd choose a less passionate
form of dance, like ballet or modern.
I am so glad to be in a city filled with Argentinians who understand the
true sense of the dance and the music of tango to help me learn what the
true energy that is expressed in tango is. And ask any Argentinian what
that energy is...and I'll assure you they say SEXUAL.
And on another note, Petra responded that:
" Dancing with a bad dancer will not help or allow you to find the
> elements inside yourself which build your technique, your posture, your
swiftness or your sensuality/sexuality.. But dancing with a bad dancer
might encourage the bad dancer to stay and become a better one."
Petra, the last part is true, but one of the MOST IMPORTANT THINGS for a
woman to learn in Tango is BALANCE AND POSTURE. And this is the thing many
women that I have come across DON'T HAVE. One of the first thing I'm told
by most leaders is that I am light as a feather to move...because being a
dancer since I was 5 years old, I have perfect balance. A man should not
feel the weight of the woman, nor should the woman feel the weight of the
man when dancing with him ...even in close embrace, and the only way to
accomplish this by maintaining perfect balance and posture. Dancing with a
bad dancer helps teach yourself to maintain your own balance and posture
tremendously. Going to the milongas is great practice for me. Each lead
will provide me with a different balance to counterbalance with my own..so
it's great practice in working on maintaining my center.
Well, that's all IMHO. Happy dancing to all.
Nicole
>
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 16:06:41 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: more on women leading women, women needing men
Nicole wrote:
Dancing with a
> bad dancer helps teach yourself to maintain your own balance and posture
> tremendously. Going to the milongas is great practice for me. Each lead
> will provide me with a different balance to counterbalance with my own..so
> it's great practice in working on maintaining my center.
>
Well, this may be a good exercise for you, with your umpteen years of ballet
training and "perfect balance and posture", but I certainly would not
recommend that as a general practise.
Yes, there is something to be said for the woman learning to look good IN
SPITE of who is leading her, but it is also a known fact that dancing can
lead to injury.
I do not care for a man who tries to practise his supposed "apilado" skills
on me, while leaning over and down on me and compressing the discs in my
spine, I do not want to dance with someone using me as a leaning post while
I am balancing on 3 inch heels, putting a major extra strain on my already
strained feet. Been there, done that, and once is enough.
I care for being able to dance the whole evening, and dancing with someone
like the men mentioned above can debilitate me so much that I will have to
sit out a number of dances to recover, or, if I don't, anyway, will not last
for the whole evening without being in pain eventually. I will only dance
with a beginner who I feel worth encouraging, because he is showing some
talent. And with an intermediate who does not have the above mentioned bad
habits while thinking he is an advanced dancer.
In response to Evan's posting:
"If anything, the role of the follower requires much finer and more
developed motor skills than that of the lead. Consider this: In a given
evening of social dancing, a lead basically leads the same five or ten
things over and over again with every follow he dances with. Follows, on
the other hand, experience a completely new set of five or ten things
with each new lead she dances with. The sensitivity and physical control
required to respond reliably and musically to thousands of subtly
different movements led by hundreds of different men of varying
abilities is daunting."
Yes, the better the posture and balance of the follower is, the cleaner her
ochos, the more refined her walk, the better a follower she will be, to
anybody. It is not like one has to think about "a completely new set of 5 or
10 things with each new lead", without enough technical finesse a woman can
follow almost any move without thinkihng about it, as long as she maintains
the connection, and the man leads clearly. The other thing is that those "5
or 10 new things" are rarely unfamiliar material, they can be easily
recognized, it is just more of the same basic elements put together in a
different combination. But yes, following the moves exactly in the way every
individual man leads them takes years of training.
Meanwhile, some men have told me, that they also dance differently with
every woman. It is the man's task to make every woman look beautiful as a
dancer, in a way, that suits her particular way of moving. So I doubt it,
that better leaders will "basically lead the same 5 or 10 things over and
over again with every follower they dance with."
Another point: the man has to adjust his frame to every woman he dances
with. And I have danced with men occasionally, who were literally screwed up
by the woman they danced with before me, and took a while to recover their
usual proper posture.
There is a chapter in a German book on tango, titled:
"Tango- for women, a lack of men
for men, a lack in themselves...."
Astrid
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:22:40 +0200
From: Capella Solo <MissyLaMotte@GMX.DE>
Subject: Re: more on women leading women, women needing men
Hello all,
I have been following the various threads about women dancing with women
with growing interest. It is amazing how emotional the responses get and how
different and strong the opinions are on the subject.
I am fortunate enough to dance in a small but well developed tango community
in Germany where there are as many men as women dancing, at the classes and
practicas as well as at the milongas. Therefore no woman here 'needs' to
dance with a man if she does not want to. Still you see women dancing together at
the milongas.
I agree that there is (or at least can be) a wonderful sexual aspect to
dancing tango. I remember a few dances with men that I would not want to have
missed for mainly that reason. Maybe those are even the most memorable and
wonderful tangos I had at all. But there are still enough other aspects to the
dance (and to a milonga as a social event) that are also highly enjoyable and
which I can find when dancing with a woman as well as with a man.
What makes a dance special to me is when I agree with my partner (be it man
or woman) physically as well as emotionally on what this dance is for us at
that moment. Sometimes I do not want all this dramatic, highly emotional 'give
yourself to your partner and the music completely' stuff. I just want to
play, to laugh and to have fun. Or I just enjoy that a dance works out really
well on the technical side, that my partner and I are suddenly able to perform
steps together well that always have seem difficult to me before. Those
things can happen when I dance with a woman as well as with a man.
Those are not the 'perfect' tangos we all look and hope for most of the
time. But they are still wonderful experiences and make a joyful and pleasant
evening. I will much rather have a bunch of those little playful and technically
interesting dances than wait for the perfect, dramatic and sexually
inspiring 'once in a lifetime' experience to come along.
Have fun,
Capella
--
GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.
http://www.gmx.net
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 19:15:27 +0200
From: Petra Starmans <petra.starmans@BEFREE.CH>
Subject: Re: more on women leading women, women needing men
Hello list
Hello Nicole
I sent this mail this morning, but it bounced and so did not appear in the
list. Nicole received my personal copy to her, and she has already replied
on it throught the list ('Essence of Tango').
I resend my mail so you can see what she reacted to and put things in right
order again. Sorry for the mess.
Not such a great day for argument, I hope all out there are well.
> Hello again list, and a special hello to Petra in Switzerland.
>
> Uh-oh, but this discussion has roused one of my most passionate feelings
> about dancing and the people out there who call themselves dancers.
>
Sounds like a personal topic. Especially when CAPITALS need to be used.
You are correct that I belong to the people who call themselves dancers. Not
because I did ballet from 5 year on. Because I dance tango for 10 years now.
Because I do other dance-related body work to further my dancing. Because I
spent these 10 years in milongas,on festivals, in theatres on a very regular
basis. Dancing, discussing, observing, listening, teaching, organising and
dj-ing.
> Petra wrote:
>> I am sorry. But being a straight female instructor, i have to react >to
> this. I just see this myth of the 'sexual' energy once again pass >in front
> of my eyes and i wonder about this very narrow (IMHO) >interpretation of
> the feeling of tango. I do not think this sexual >energy often is to be
> found in dancing tango. If it is found it can >be exciting, addicting, of
> course. But for me in the follow a sheer >addiction can develop just from
> the movement, there can be a sheer >addiction just in the concentration
> transporting you out of your >every day life, there can be a sheer
> addiction in the sense of >somebody 'carrying' you around like a baby and
> steering you away >from all obstacles, providing you with all quiet to look
> into or >refind yourself. this i somehow do connect more with a general
>> allmost parental-like caring.
>
> MYTH OF SEXUAL ENERGY? What myth? Do you know nothing of the HISTORY of
> Tango??? It was always about SEX. Remember how it originated in the
> BROTHELS?? Well, what do the brothels provide? ALL Afro/Latin dances (and
> Tango is an Afro/latin dance) create a sexual energy...and if you've never
> felt this, you've never felt the "truth" of these dances and where and from
> what they originated in the first place.
>
Wow. Did I say I never felt this? Do you who never saw me (or danced with me
;-) ) say I am cold / frigid ?
And are you sure brothels only provide sex?
> I've never thought of tango as someone "carrying me around like a baby".
> Yes, there's a passive energy for a woman...but not THAT passive. I would
> definately suggest you read The Tao of Tango by Joanna Seigmann, and
> actually LISTEN to the music sometime not just walk through the
> patterns...and maybe even find a new man to dance with.
Thanks for the suggestions. I am by no means a passive dancer. I am pretty
pretty active, much more so than most leaders care for or are used to. And
you greatly insult me when you suggest I do not listen to the music or am
just walking through patterns, that observation has nothing to do with me as
a dancer. I am not hanging on my man and just let myself be taken care off,
my weight and bad axis inclusive.
If my words give you that impression,alas!
But I would never get it into my mind to suggest things about your quality
of dancing.
After dancing for 10 years with so many men I just wanted to suggest that
sensuality can come from many places and that I do not want nor expect every
dance to be a sexual one and I do not want to dismiss every dance which is
not sexual as a dance not very worth dancing, untruthful, not 'tango'.
> If I wanted a
> parental-like caring feeling while dancing, I'd choose a less passionate
> form of dance, like ballet or modern.
I just mentioned some further aspects of the dance. Sometimes I want the
'sexuality', sometimes I want the parental-like caring, sometimes I want
both, and sometimes I do not 'want' so much or have no
fixed-mind-on-the-fix-i-need but things develop on the spot in the very
moment in the one or other direction, i cannot foresay the mood I or my
partner is in.
I tried to address a transcendental quality. And a social quality.
In certain dances with the men of personal friends i can also decide to
actively steer away from the sexuality and still have a very rewarding tango
experience.
>
> I am so glad to be in a city filled with Argentinians who understand the
> true sense of the dance and the music of tango to help me learn what the
> true energy that is expressed in tango is. And ask any Argentinian what
> that energy is...and I'll assure you they say SEXUAL.
>
I do my own share of talking to and dancing with Argentinians. I am not
sosure they all say 'sexual'. Nor do I wish to see their opinion as the
great wisdom only.
And of course 'sexuality sells'.
>
> And on another note, Petra responded that:
> " Dancing with a bad dancer will not help or allow you to find the
>> elements inside yourself which build your technique, your posture, your
> swiftness or your sensuality/sexuality.. But dancing with a bad dancer
> might encourage the bad dancer to stay and become a better one."
>
> Petra, the last part is true, but one of the MOST IMPORTANT THINGS for a
> woman to learn in Tango is BALANCE AND POSTURE. And this is the thing many
> women that I have come across DON'T HAVE. One of the first thing I'm told
> by most leaders is that I am light as a feather to move...because being a
> dancer since I was 5 years old, I have perfect balance.
Nicole, I am not going to list here what dancers tell me about my dance
qualities. Lucky you that you have your heavenliness written all over you.
>A man should not
> feel the weight of the woman, nor should the woman feel the weight of the
> man when dancing with him ...even in close embrace, and the only way to
> accomplish this by maintaining perfect balance and posture. Dancing with a
> bad dancer helps teach yourself to maintain your own balance and posture
> tremendously. Going to the milongas is great practice for me. Each lead
> will provide me with a different balance to counterbalance with my own..so
> it's great practice in working on maintaining my center.
>
The balance and posture issue is of enormous importance. Achieving better
balance, better posture is a personal body work, that is my personal
conviction.
Dancing with bad dancers you can assess how well developed it is, how much
'counteraction' you are able to provide (and at what cost, be it the aches
several other women already addressed, be it the being rather disturbingly
ripped away from your physical and emotional centering). But to incorporate
the balance feeling into your body memory, your body will profit from
practicing in situations where you can feel it works. As you did ballet for
so long, you personally have developed that feeling long time ago, before
doing tango.
Teaching people with less body consciousness and merely getting them to
sense how they use their body elements when dancing, and then to help them
change it, that is a more challenging issue.
> Well, that's all IMHO. Happy dancing to all.
>
Leave out the H in IMHO. It does not reflect what you wrote.
I could write even longer but...
Happy dancing to all who call themselves dancers and special thanks to the
women responding warmly to me off-list.
Petra
--
Petra Starmans
Design, Konzept und Beratung
Neptunstrasse 21
8032 Zürich
tel/fax: + 41 (0)1 262 06 55
mobile: + 41 (0)79 703 26 64
e-mail: petra@starmans.ch
--
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 17:10:09 -0300
From: la guacha <lamasguacha@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: more on women leading women, women needing men
Nicole writes::
>MYTH OF SEXUAL ENERGY? What myth? Do you know nothing of the HISTORY of
>Tango??? It was always about SEX. Remember how it originated in the
>BROTHELS?? Well, what do the brothels provide? ALL Afro/Latin dances (and
>Tango is an Afro/latin dance) create a sexual energy...and if you've never
>felt this, you've never felt the "truth" of these dances and where and from
>what they originated in the first place...
I've never thought of tango as someone "carrying me around like a baby".
If I wanted a parental-like caring feeling while dancing, I'd choose a
less passionate
>form of dance, like ballet or modern.
I am wondering if Nicole has sex with every man she dances with. Or even
wants to. I am wondering how many times Nicole and a male partner have
successfully translated this sexual energy from the dance floor to the bed.
More often than not - it does not translate!
I am wondering if Nicole is aware that sex in the Brothels is WORK for women
and a poor substitute for intimacy for men. I am also wondering if Nicole
is aware of all the passionate sex that goes on in the ballet and modern
dance world.
>I am so glad to be in a city filled with Argentinians who understand the
>true sense of the dance and the music of tango to help me learn what the
>true energy that is expressed in tango is. And ask any Argentinian what
>that energy is...and I'll assure you they say SEXUAL.
I am also glad that I live in a city filled with so many Argentines that it
is possible to get an Argentine perspective other than "let's go to the
milonga to pick up a chick!"
the milongas are many things to many people. To state that the energy is
only and purely sexual equates the tango with an empty sexual encounter with
a stranger. Devoid of meaning, tenderness, sensuality and love. This
viewpoint denies the beauty and richness of the dance.
-la guacha
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 08:25:59 -0800
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Women leading men
Karen Corriea wrote:
"Another subject - When follower and leader are in
agreement to be
sensitive to the followers initiative to add her own
creative
improvisations within the dance. I don't mean
adornments, but actually taking the
lead for a moment or longer."
Would you please elaborate upon the last statement?
I've always been led to believe that the concept of
women leading men was anathema in the tango culture.
What do you do and how do you do it when you "take the
lead", and what effect does it have on your partner?
Luda
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 11:57:14 -0800
From: Jim Maes <dancetango@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Women leading men
At 08:25 AM 11/14/2002 -0800, you wrote:
Karen Corriea wrote:
>"Another subject - When follower and leader are in
>agreement to be
>sensitive to the followers initiative to add her own
>creative
>improvisations within the dance. I don't mean
>adornments, but actually taking the
>lead for a moment or longer."
I'm back :) :)
There are many women that are better leads than most men. Ask any man
that's danced with Mariela Franganillo (
http://www.tejastango.com/workshop_mariela.html ) She's incredibly feminine
with power, and skill. I've seen her and experienced her taking the lead
away from even very strong male leaders. Do men want to continue to control
(lead) because they are afraid of the power of women? Maybe it's good to
remember that women have a different sensitivity than men. Personally I
believe that it's a good thing to learn the other part. It sometimes helps
to understand what our partner is feeling. Like most things in life, when
they are new, it takes time to develop into full form. There is (since the
womens' movement) a trend towards understand our opposites. Men finding
their feminine side, women expressing masculinity. Some come to a balance,
some don't. There are cases, of men that are "New age wimps" or "tyrants",
and women that are too much into control "dominant". It seems that women
have an easier time being masculine, without criticism from their own
gender. Men on the other hand are SO afraid of homosexuality that they
often can't show sensitivity.
We are all afraid of intimacy.
>Would you please elaborate upon the last statement?
>I've always been led to believe that the concept of
>women leading men was anathema in the tango culture.
>What do you do and how do you do it when you "take the
>lead", and what effect does it have on your partner?
Ask Mariela
It effect different partners differently. I like it, I also like a woman
that can get on top. Who wants the responsibility for everything? Not me. I
can barely take responsibility for my own life..
****see Jim standing over a huge cauldron, stirring with a gleam and a
cackle. Now hold your nose and take a big gulp of magic. Your mother would
say "It's good for you****
blah blah ya de ya
Jim
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:29:48 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Women leading men
Karen Corriea wrote:
>I've always been led to believe that the concept of
>women leading men was anathema in the tango culture.
>What do you do and how do you do it when you "take the
>lead", and what effect does it have on your partner?
I have danced with a few women, Mariela Franganillo
<http://www.tejastango.com/mariela.html> most notable among them, who are
quite capable of taking over the lead without back leading and without
giving up the woman's position in the dance. Their ability to do so comes
from a knowledge of both the leader's and follower's parts and how they fit
together. The result is a much more collaborative dance.
In general, women (following) are in charge of the timing of their
movements during turns. Dancing with a man (leading) who waits allows the
women to add their own elements to the dance. Usually these are in the
form of adornments. But if the man (leading) provides enought space in the
dance, some followers can take more initiative and cocreate the movements.
It takes the dance to completely different level.
With best regards (from Texas),
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
http://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:33:28 +0100
From: Chris Luethen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Women leading men
On 14 Nov 2002 at 15:29, Stephen Brown wrote:
> It takes the dance to completely different level.
come dancing to the netherlands ... to exprerience this feeling quite
a lot of times!
tango has gone further, behind the classical rules & figures of the
bs.as. salons (nothing against!) ... and once again it's europe again
where this process is - contineously - happening.
christian
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 06:30:32 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Women leading women
The woman who leads other women successfully (in the specialised sense that
she looks good to me ... and feels good to those whom she invites to dance
with her) assumes the male role in the tango DancE. (NoT in life as a whole,
a different kettle of fish ... a whole mess of kettles, in fact.)
She need not look overall more like a man than before, or in any way turn
into an imitation man; but she needs to incorporate into her dance some
critical posture and motional characteristics demanded also of a man-leader.
She needs to become the foundation and main stay of the couple, and to
project "leadership character", things like decisiveness, reliability,
strength, etc. (Meaning, for instance, that the "follower" is obviously safe
in her arms, e.g., from falling, and the like -- to give a trivial example.)
The trick is pulled when others inside or outside the couple sense the
traditional (not immoderate) asymmetry of roles going the right way.
Each of the several possible role-reversal "experiments" raises issues of
this ilk.
From positive and negative personal experience and observation I will say
that for a woman to lead convincingly is a tall order; and for a man to
follow convincingly ... a VerY tall order.
Cheers,
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 9:31 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Women leading women
The woman who leads other women successfully (in the specialised sense
that
she looks good to me ... and feels good to those whom she invites to
dance
with her) assumes the male role in the tango DancE. (NoT in life as a
whole,
a different kettle of fish ... a whole mess of kettles, in fact.)
She need not look overall more like a man than before, or in any way
turn
into an imitation man; but she needs to incorporate into her dance some
critical posture and motional characteristics demanded also of a
man-leader.
She needs to become the foundation and main stay of the couple, and to
project "leadership character", things like decisiveness, reliability,
strength, etc. (Meaning, for instance, that the "follower" is obviously
safe
in her arms, e.g., from falling, and the like -- to give a trivial
example.)
The trick is pulled when others inside or outside the couple sense the
traditional (not immoderate) asymmetry of roles going the right way.
Each of the several possible role-reversal "experiments" raises issues
of
this ilk.
From positive and negative personal experience and observation I will
say
that for a woman to lead convincingly is a tall order; and for a man to
follow convincingly ... a VerY tall order.
Cheers,
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 04:20:09 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Janis shares with us Ricardo Vidart's opinion on the subject of women
leading in tango : she says
"He didn't comment on the
subject of women learning to lead other than saying, "I don't believe that a
women should dance tango as a man" and said he would share his comments with
me at another time. Ricardo didn't advocate women learning to lead in
order to teach."
This is an opinion that most Argentines both women and men agree with. I do
not think that it has anything to do with machismo, it has to do with many
other elements that are implied in tango dancing.
Do you know anything about this?
Sergio
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:28:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
To have a well behaved dog never let her lead you
pulling on the leash in front of you...
Lucia ;->:
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
escribi?:
> Janis shares with us Ricardo Vidart's opinion on the
> subject of women
> leading in tango : she says
>
> "He didn't comment on the
> subject of women learning to lead other than saying,
> "I don't believe that a
> women should dance tango as a man" and said he would
> share his comments with
> me at another time. Ricardo didn't advocate women
> learning to lead in
> order to teach."
>
> This is an opinion that most Argentines both women
> and men agree with. I do
> not think that it has anything to do with machismo,
> it has to do with many
> other elements that are implied in tango dancing.
>
> Do you know anything about this?
>
> Sergio
>
>
> Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
> Search!
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 08:37:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Dear Sergio:
I think the problem with women leading the dance to
teach is the same problem that happens when the person
who plays the drums in an orchestra tries to play the
violin all the time to teach music, and the violinist
tries to teach students how to play the drums. It
does not work well.
One has to decide what one wants to do best, and learn
ones own skill, instead of trying control everything
that everyone else is doing. A little experience in
another person's role is OK, but when that experience
is overdone all the time, then it becomes a problem.
The orchestra will begin to suffer because of a lack
of skilled musicians in each of there chosen fields.
People need to spend their energies working to improve
themselves instead trying to control what others do.
My opinion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Janis shares with us Ricardo Vidart's opinion on the
> subject of women
> leading in tango : she says
>
> "He didn't comment on the
> subject of women learning to lead other than saying,
> "I don't believe that a
> women should dance tango as a man" and said he would
> share his comments with
> me at another time. Ricardo didn't advocate women
> learning to lead in
> order to teach."
>
> This is an opinion that most Argentines both women
> and men agree with. I do
> not think that it has anything to do with machismo,
> it has to do with many
> other elements that are implied in tango dancing.
>
> Do you know anything about this?
>
> Sergio
>
>
> Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
> Search!
>
>
>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To have a well behaved dog never let her lead you
pulling on the leash in front of you...
Lucia ;->:
Sneak preview the all-new Yahoo.com. It's not radically different. Just radically better.
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:07:43 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Tango-L (Places) or Women Leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Three weeks ago, I went to a Milonga hosted by my tango school. There, I
watched one of my teachers, a woman, lead her male partner through a tanda.
They looked like they were having a fabulous time but it wasn't just that.
It was so apparent from watching them that they were completely on the same
wave-length, as if they understood each other utterly and completely. In
fact, for the rest of the night, they would switch roles easily, as if they
didn't even notice they had done that but always they danced together in
close embrace and so so well. I was completely fascinated with them - it's a
rare occasion indeed to see such an intense connection. They really looked
like they were in another world, another reality apart from the rest of us.
So, as for this whole debate on gender roles in Tango, I really couldn't
care less. All I know is what I saw that night - and wish I too could
experience that.
Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented Microsoft. SmartScreen
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Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:29:20 -0400
From: "Scott Bennett" <scottb@smockonline.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
In the milongas of Buenos Aires, I have yet to see women leading women.
Women have such beauty to add to the dance as women.... and all the focus is
on that. I agree with this position, and that women leading women as a
learning tool should be reserved for practicas and classrooms.
Obviously our culture is very different here than in Buenos Aires, and the
obvious consequence is that tango here in the States would be shaped by that
difference.
And as much as I would like tango here to be like it is in Buenos Aires, I
reluctantly accept that it's an impossible expectation. Aor is it? Perhaps
that's why I travel to Buenos Aires as much as possible.
So the question I wonder and am interested in asking the community is are
there those trying to replicate what exists in Buenos Aires, or are we
ourselves shaping what it is going to look like here in the States?
Scott
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
always a sucker for the inequality topic bait, I'll
bite...
What a crock! why is it that a woman can't be as good
a leader as a man, and still be a good follower? I've
seen it, i've danced on either side of it, I know it
is possible. I think the naysaysers are just
threatened.
I understand the idea that once a woman starts
learning to lead, it affects the way she follows,
however, if practiced long enough, I think that is no
longer an issue.
Learning more of anything is never a bad thing.
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Sergio:
>
> I think the problem with women leading the dance to
> teach is the same problem that happens when the
> person
> who plays the drums in an orchestra tries to play
> the
> violin all the time to teach music, and the
> violinist
> tries to teach students how to play the drums. It
> does not work well.
>
> One has to decide what one wants to do best, and
> learn
> ones own skill, instead of trying control everything
> that everyone else is doing. A little experience in
> another person's role is OK, but when that
> experience
> is overdone all the time, then it becomes a problem.
>
> The orchestra will begin to suffer because of a lack
> of skilled musicians in each of there chosen fields.
>
> People need to spend their energies working to
> improve
> themselves instead trying to control what others do.
>
> My opinion.
>
> Derik
> d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>
> --- Sergio Vandekier
> <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Janis shares with us Ricardo Vidart's opinion on
> the
> > subject of women
> > leading in tango : she says
> >
> > "He didn't comment on the
> > subject of women learning to lead other than
> saying,
> > "I don't believe that a
> > women should dance tango as a man" and said he
> would
> > share his comments with
> > me at another time. Ricardo didn't advocate
> women
> > learning to lead in
> > order to teach."
> >
> > This is an opinion that most Argentines both women
> > and men agree with. I do
> > not think that it has anything to do with
> machismo,
> > it has to do with many
> > other elements that are implied in tango dancing.
> >
> > Do you know anything about this?
> >
> > Sergio
> >
> >
>
> > Don???t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
> > Search!
> >
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> protection around
>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:43:14 -0400
From: Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: "Scott Bennett" <scottb@smockonline.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
When in Pisa, do as the Pisans do -- lean with it.
When in BsAs follow the local custom.
In the US, follow the local custom of the community you are in.
What's so difficult about that?
Tango here in the US is not like it is in BsAs -- different country
different cultural norms.
No problem.
Marty
At 02:29 PM 5/25/2006, Scott Bennett wrote:
>In the milongas of Buenos Aires, I have yet to see women leading women.
>Women have such beauty to add to the dance as women.... and all the focus is
>on that. I agree with this position, and that women leading women as a
>learning tool should be reserved for practicas and classrooms.
>
>Obviously our culture is very different here than in Buenos Aires, and the
>obvious consequence is that tango here in the States would be shaped by that
>difference.
>
>And as much as I would like tango here to be like it is in Buenos Aires, I
>reluctantly accept that it's an impossible expectation. Aor is it? Perhaps
>that's why I travel to Buenos Aires as much as possible.
>
>So the question I wonder and am interested in asking the community is are
>there those trying to replicate what exists in Buenos Aires, or are we
>ourselves shaping what it is going to look like here in the States?
>
>Scott
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:47:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: Scott Bennett <scottb@smockonline.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Why not forget about Tango for a moment, come to live for a few months in Argentina of the common non-dancing folk and try to understand their mentality and way of life?
Chances are that you'll learn more about Tango than if you'd be dancing all your afternoons and nights away...
Lucia
Scott Bennett <scottb@smockonline.com> escribi?:
So the question I wonder and am interested in asking the community is are
there those trying to replicate what exists in Buenos Aires, or are we
ourselves shaping what it is going to look like here in the States?
Scott
Abr? tu cuenta aqu?
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 18:58:18 +0000 (GMT)
From: Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Men may profit dancing as !follower! - (such an ugly word, why can't you use a word like Compa?era?) for then they could understand how a woman should be led to FEEL.
No objective returns for a woman, unless for her ego..
Lucia :-@
Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com> escribi?: why is it that a woman can't be as good
a leader as a man,
Hor?scopos, Salud y belleza, Chistes, Consejos de amor.
El contenido m?s divertido para tu celular est? en
Yahoo! M?vil
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 07:46:31 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net
> What a crock! why is it that a woman can't be as good
> a leader as a man, and still be a good follower? I've
> seen it, i've danced on either side of it, I know it
> is possible. I think the naysaysers are just
> threatened.
I can't keep track of who wrote the above statement because
it was pasted on top of somebody else's message on top of
somebody else's message.
I remember Daniel Trenner saying at the 1998 Washington
Tango festival (before Anne Sophie put it on) that women
learn tango 10X faster when they learn how to lead and men
learn tango 10X faster when they learn how to follow. I only
comment that learning how to follow advanced my learning how
to lead.
One of the rules of leading is to wait for the woman to
step. I remember following a female leader. She made the
same mistake I did in leading ochos, i.e. stepping sideways
before the partner pivoted to come in the other direction.
After that experience, I finally learned what "wait for the
woman" means. Up to that point, I HEARD the words. When I
followed, I EXPERIENCED what it meant not to wait.
Even today when I have difficulty with a figure, my teacher,
Joe, will lead me so I can try and figure out how to lead it
correctly and what I'm doing wrong.
I wonder if some women learn to lead because they are so
dissatisfied with the leaders in their community. Are they
sending a message?
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:04:25 -0400
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I've been watching this thread and have to chime in. Again, I'm a newbie
but a very good athlete and a martial artist. It is well known that you
cannot learn a MA to proficiency unless you receive the technique.
Indeed, I can tell at a glance who has never felt a given technique done
properly just by how they move. Most communication is non-verbal and no
amount of explaining will ever really beat experience. It struck me when
I started tango that it is taught asymmetrically even though the motions
of both parties are the pretty much the same once they get proficient.
It also has impressed me that the learning curve is therefore steeper
than it need be. I've also noticed that all the really good tango
teachers I've run into know how to lead and follow and often suggest it
to their students.
A cleaner way to teach it -- and I know a lot of you will shout me down
immediately so save your electrons -- would be to teach leading and
following each basic movement from the start. If my experience elsewhere
is a guide, the first week or so will be the hardest for people to get
through (as they learn how to learn), then after that you will easily
halve the time it takes to get proficient in anything.
$.02
Jeff
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:20:49 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Isn't it true that at the beginning, when tango first began, men were
dancing with men before they became "learned" enough in order to dance with
a woman?
Why couldn't that be the case for women? Why wouldn't a woman want to learn
to lead so she would learn to become an even better follower?
What's wrong with wanting to learn more about tango from your partner's
perspective? I mean, really, what's going to happen if a woman learns to
lead? Will the world of tango fall off its axis?
Caroline
Designer Mail isn't just fun to send, it's fun to receive. Use special
stationery, fonts and colors.
first two months FREE*.
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:26:26 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Not only that, but we are shaping what exists in Buenos Aires. When I lead in
practicas and lessons in BsAs, Argentine women will ask me later to dance with
them in the milonga (early, though-later and the "old guard" will get
upset.) I
have also led men (Argentine) in the milongas in BsAs.
Would this have happened without us foreigners in BsAs? Maybe. But not as
quickly. Would tango be as popular in BsAs without us? Maybe, but not as much.
Who can tell? Who gets to decide?
Some philosopher once said "You can't look at a thing without changing it".
Maybe we non-Argentines have been looking at this too much.
Lois in Minneapolis (Loisita is B Aires)
> So the question I wonder and am interested in asking the community is are
> there those trying to replicate what exists in Buenos Aires, or are we
> ourselves shaping what it is going to look like here in the States?
>
> Scott
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:54:04 EDT
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: donnay@donnay.net, tango-l@mit.edu
Life is a matter of choice, fate may be a hunter, but still we have choices.
We can stay in a box, and memorize its contents or we can step out from
time to time and enjoy an even bigger world. Lead and follow were words chosen
to be gender neutral, so why should we ?regenderize? them, to coin a word?
For me, and it is for me, I love Tango because it gives me the opportunity
to lead and share for a common experience. However, for me never to follow,
IMO is selfish, as would limit my ability to lead if I did not know the direct
effect of that lead. At a Milonga, it is and I emphasis my choice to lead,
I don?t think I would enjoy dancing as a follow (I am open to change, but
that is my current opinion.)
Lessons and Practicas are a different story. There the object is to learn
and improve, to experiment, to experience and adapt. There, the roles that
each take are strictly a matter of choice to what each feels will help them
improve. Some stay in a box, some step out of the box. It is choice.
At milongas, again it is choice, whatever each is comfortable with, is what
they should do. For me, Tango is not a furtherance of tradition as define
by a select few, but fun and enjoyment that grows from a tradition, a
tradition if I have been reading my history correctly, that has grown on change,
albeit slow at times, but never the less change.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle
In a message dated 5/25/2006 1:28:26 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
donnay@donnay.net writes:
Not only that, but we are shaping what exists in Buenos Aires. When I lead
in
practicas and lessons in BsAs, Argentine women will ask me later to dance
with
them in the milonga (early, though-later and the "old guard" will get
upset.) I
have also led men (Argentine) in the milongas in BsAs.
Would this have happened without us foreigners in BsAs? Maybe. But not as
quickly. Would tango be as popular in BsAs without us? Maybe, but not as
much.
Who can tell? Who gets to decide?
Some philosopher once said "You can't look at a thing without changing it".
Maybe we non-Argentines have been looking at this too much.
Lois in Minneapolis (Loisita is B Aires)
> So the question I wonder and am interested in asking the community is are
> there those trying to replicate what exists in Buenos Aires, or are we
> ourselves shaping what it is going to look like here in the States?
>
> Scott
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Tango-L mailing list
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:06:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net>, Scott Bennett
<scottb@smockonline.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Dear Martin:
You are exactly right. So why do US Americans tango
teachers insist on calling our USA style of tango
"Argentine tango", when in fact it is not the real
thing at all. Our US American tango is only a bad
imitation of the real thing. Women leading women all
the time is part of the misunderstanding. Close
embrace all the time is another part of the
misunderstanding. All of these things are no problem
if we call our tango US Tango, but when we claim it is
real Argentine tango, then we are wrong. USA tango is
definitely not Argentine tango, either in spirit or in
results. That is OK if we are just honest about it.
We are like the Finnish people. Our tango is
different, and it reflects our culture. My opinion.
PS- Martin, thanks for defending me awhile back, even
though you did not want to do it....lol. I did really
appreciate the thought. That was very nice of you.
You are an honest man.
--- Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net> wrote:
> In the US, follow the local custom of the community
> you are in. What's so difficult about that?
> Tango here in the US is not like it is in BsAs --
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net> wrote:
> When in Pisa, do as the Pisans do -- lean with it.
> When in BsAs follow the local custom.
> In the US, follow the local custom of the community
> you are in.
> What's so difficult about that?
> Tango here in the US is not like it is in BsAs --
> different country
> different cultural norms.
> No problem.
>
> Marty
>
> At 02:29 PM 5/25/2006, Scott Bennett wrote:
> >In the milongas of Buenos Aires, I have yet to see
> women leading women.
> >Women have such beauty to add to the dance as
> women.... and all the focus is
> >on that. I agree with this position, and that
> women leading women as a
> >learning tool should be reserved for practicas and
> classrooms.
> >
> >Obviously our culture is very different here than
> in Buenos Aires, and the
> >obvious consequence is that tango here in the
> States would be shaped by that
> >difference.
> >
> >And as much as I would like tango here to be like
> it is in Buenos Aires, I
> >reluctantly accept that it's an impossible
> expectation. Aor is it? Perhaps
> >that's why I travel to Buenos Aires as much as
> possible.
> >
> >So the question I wonder and am interested in
> asking the community is are
> >there those trying to replicate what exists in
> Buenos Aires, or are we
> >ourselves shaping what it is going to look like
> here in the States?
> >
> >Scott
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 14:21:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango-L (Places) or Women Leading
To: Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>, tango-l@mit.edu
Dear Caroline:
You are right, BUT you are talking about a couple who
know each other well. They would have a good
relationship no matter what they were doing. It is
easy to dance with same person all the time, or with
friends whose steps you have memorized. You "cover up"
each others mistakes.
A good musician in a symphony can play well in ANY
symphony, not just one. A good tango dancer can dance
with anyone.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Three weeks ago, I went to a Milonga hosted by my
> tango school. There, I
> watched one of my teachers, a woman, lead her male
> partner through a tanda.
> They looked like they were having a fabulous time
> but it wasn't just that.
> It was so apparent from watching them that they were
> completely on the same
> wave-length, as if they understood each other
> utterly and completely. In
> fact, for the rest of the night, they would switch
> roles easily, as if they
> didn't even notice they had done that but always
> they danced together in
> close embrace and so so well. I was completely
> fascinated with them - it's a
> rare occasion indeed to see such an intense
> connection. They really looked
> like they were in another world, another reality
> apart from the rest of us.
>
> So, as for this whole debate on gender roles in
> Tango, I really couldn't
> care less. All I know is what I saw that night - and
> wish I too could
> experience that.
>
>
> Take charge with a pop-up guard built on patented
> Microsoft? SmartScreen
> Technology
>
>
> Start enjoying all the benefits of MSN? Premium
> right now and get the
> first two months FREE*.
>
>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 15:35:38 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I still do not understand that fuss about "leading" and "following" in the
tango community.
These words where not chosen to be "gender neutral". These words are used
all around the world at least for a hundred of years to describe relations
between dancing partners. I have heard it since I was a boy! "Lead me",
"I'll dance it if you lead it", "He is such a good leader", "He led me so
well" - that is routinely is used in russian language. Without any negative
feeling whatsoever. About women we usually say differently. She - dances. I
lead her in the dance. I'd like to know how it is in other languages.
At times at some places there was not enough of dancers of the opposite
gender. So what? They danced with each other. No problem whatsoever. This is
less interesting, of course, sometimes funny, but it is better than to seat
in the corner. Literature, movies, personal memories vividly present such
episodes. There are few of them, because nobody even paid much attention to
it: it was more than normal, it was unnoticed. You know, there are things
which we do, but do not pay any attention to it, we take it as granted.
May be in Argentina, where at times there were many more men than women,
dancing women presented something extraordinary - they ignored men.
For me to "follow" is to be able to perceive and react to the lead well.
This is it. Just a name. Because of my limitation in language and culture, I
do not sense any negative connotations. I could say "feeling". There is such
thing like "feeling of the partner".
Igor
PS.
I am not really good in English, but I have to tell you how I see the
problem, then you might understand me better.
In Russian, there are 2 words equivalent to English "Lead": "Lead", directly
borrowed from English, (leadership), and "vesti" - a slavic root. The
first - "Lead" has to do with authority. "Bush is an American leader".
Russians would use exactly the same word. The second one, "Vesti" means "to
show a path". A father leads his baby along the path, a man leads a woman in
the dance, a TV host leads the show or a discussion. We can say: "We lead
the conversation". It means we have the conversation, we go along the same
path, when one speaks - he leads it, we exchange our roles in conversation.
But it does not have much relation to authority.
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:14:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi
In my club, a year or two ago, some girls were starting to lead. It's fun, it's a new skill, and we would do it whenever we felt like it. Since our gender balance is usually fairly close to equal, some of the guys found themselves on the sidelines without a partner, watching the goings on. When there were several, they would usually start complaining, of course they also found it secretly exciting, but that's another story. Several suggested I email out an executive order that there shall be no more such girl-leading while there were perfectly good guys right there. I did not, of course. We like to dance with guys, but we also like to lead. They felt kinda stupid all the while they were yammering. Then somehow they decided they would try following and still dance with the girls. Last year we started a separate mini-practica of which the condition was that people lead and follow the same amount of time. So we still dance with guys but we get to lead them half the time. The
guys in the practica are getting really good at following and the girls at leading, especially from trying it on guys. It spills over into social dancing somewhat and it's a lot of fun. We are all becoming better dancers.
I don't really care whether this would be frowned upon in Argentina (or in Texas). Go ahead, make my day!
Tine
Tine
Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net> wrote:
Not only that, but we are shaping what exists in Buenos Aires. When I lead in
practicas and lessons in BsAs, Argentine women will ask me later to dance with
them in the milonga (early, though-later and the "old guard" will get
upset.) I
have also led men (Argentine) in the milongas in BsAs.
Would this have happened without us foreigners in BsAs? Maybe. But not as
quickly. Would tango be as popular in BsAs without us? Maybe, but not as much.
Who can tell? Who gets to decide?
Some philosopher once said "You can't look at a thing without changing it".
Maybe we non-Argentines have been looking at this too much.
Lois in Minneapolis (Loisita is B Aires)
> So the question I wonder and am interested in asking the community is are
> there those trying to replicate what exists in Buenos Aires, or are we
> ourselves shaping what it is going to look like here in the States?
>
> Scott
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
************************
www.yaletangoclub.org
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 19:22:22 EDT
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: ipolk@virtuar.com, tango-l@mit.edu
Igor,
My apologies, there are gender neutral in English. Language is as self
limiting as it is expansive, connotative meanings vs denotative meanings.
Otherwise, I agree what's the problem?
Bill in Seattle
In a message dated 5/25/2006 3:43:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
ipolk@virtuar.com writes:
I still do not understand that fuss about "leading" and "following" in the
tango community.
These words where not chosen to be "gender neutral". These words are used
all around the world at least for a hundred of years to describe relations
between dancing partners. I have heard it since I was a boy! "Lead me",
"I'll dance it if you lead it", "He is such a good leader", "He led me so
well" - that is routinely is used in russian language. Without any negative
feeling whatsoever. About women we usually say differently. She - dances. I
lead her in the dance. I'd like to know how it is in other languages.
At times at some places there was not enough of dancers of the opposite
gender. So what? They danced with each other. No problem whatsoever. This is
less interesting, of course, sometimes funny, but it is better than to seat
in the corner. Literature, movies, personal memories vividly present such
episodes. There are few of them, because nobody even paid much attention to
it: it was more than normal, it was unnoticed. You know, there are things
which we do, but do not pay any attention to it, we take it as granted.
May be in Argentina, where at times there were many more men than women,
dancing women presented something extraordinary - they ignored men.
For me to "follow" is to be able to perceive and react to the lead well.
This is it. Just a name. Because of my limitation in language and culture, I
do not sense any negative connotations. I could say "feeling". There is such
thing like "feeling of the partner".
Igor
PS.
I am not really good in English, but I have to tell you how I see the
problem, then you might understand me better.
In Russian, there are 2 words equivalent to English "Lead": "Lead", directly
borrowed from English, (leadership), and "vesti" - a slavic root. The
first - "Lead" has to do with authority. "Bush is an American leader".
Russians would use exactly the same word. The second one, "Vesti" means "to
show a path". A father leads his baby along the path, a man leads a woman in
the dance, a TV host leads the show or a discussion. We can say: "We lead
the conversation". It means we have the conversation, we go along the same
path, when one speaks - he leads it, we exchange our roles in conversation.
But it does not have much relation to authority.
Tango-L mailing list
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 16:48:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Miha Glockenspiel <fullblast4@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I love the way the Yale Tango Club works.
Hopefully all the men who never or rarely have
been lead (how about closing your eyes to give
up all control), should check their
"macho-meter" and try it! It is a great
experience, lots of things to be discovered; you
might like it in the end!?
Who cares what they do in Argentina, they were
the ones bringing it to the world in the first
place (was it Paris?). So now Tango is free, no
rules ...Who ownes my Tango? Me!
I'm very happy that there is so much differences
for everybody...Just let them have it.
Don't forget the fun you can have...
Miha
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 20:08:32 -0400
From: Martin Waxman <martin@waxman.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: Euroking@aol.com, ipolk@virtuar.com, tango-l@mit.edu
For the Argentine Spanish speakers on the list:
What are the Argentine Spanish words/translations for what we English
speakers call "lead" and "follow"?
As far as I can determine, the words don't exist -- they seem to use
"Man" and "Woman".
Help!
Marty Waxman
At 07:22 PM 5/25/2006, Euroking@aol.com wrote:
>
>Igor,
>
>My apologies, there are gender neutral in English. Language is as self
>limiting as it is expansive, connotative meanings vs denotative meanings.
>Otherwise, I agree what's the problem?
>
>Bill in Seattle
>
>
>In a message dated 5/25/2006 3:43:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
>ipolk@virtuar.com writes:
>
>I still do not understand that fuss about "leading" and "following" in the
>tango community.
>
>These words where not chosen to be "gender neutral". These words are used
>all around the world at least for a hundred of years to describe relations
>between dancing partners. I have heard it since I was a boy! "Lead me",
>"I'll dance it if you lead it", "He is such a good leader", "He led me so
>well" - that is routinely is used in russian language. Without any negative
>feeling whatsoever. About women we usually say differently. She - dances. I
>lead her in the dance. I'd like to know how it is in other languages.
>
>At times at some places there was not enough of dancers of the opposite
>gender. So what? They danced with each other. No problem whatsoever. This is
>less interesting, of course, sometimes funny, but it is better than to seat
>in the corner. Literature, movies, personal memories vividly present such
>episodes. There are few of them, because nobody even paid much attention to
>it: it was more than normal, it was unnoticed. You know, there are things
>which we do, but do not pay any attention to it, we take it as granted.
>
>May be in Argentina, where at times there were many more men than women,
>dancing women presented something extraordinary - they ignored men.
>
>For me to "follow" is to be able to perceive and react to the lead well.
>This is it. Just a name. Because of my limitation in language and culture, I
>do not sense any negative connotations. I could say "feeling". There is such
>thing like "feeling of the partner".
>
>Igor
>
>PS.
>I am not really good in English, but I have to tell you how I see the
>problem, then you might understand me better.
>In Russian, there are 2 words equivalent to English "Lead": "Lead", directly
>borrowed from English, (leadership), and "vesti" - a slavic root. The
>first - "Lead" has to do with authority. "Bush is an American leader".
>Russians would use exactly the same word. The second one, "Vesti" means "to
>show a path". A father leads his baby along the path, a man leads a woman in
>the dance, a TV host leads the show or a discussion. We can say: "We lead
>the conversation". It means we have the conversation, we go along the same
>path, when one speaks - he leads it, we exchange our roles in conversation.
>But it does not have much relation to authority.
>
>
>Tango-L mailing list
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 17:30:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
--- Kat <hellkat_13@yahoo.com> wrote:
...why is it that a woman can't be as good a leader as
a man...?
**********
Hola la Gata,
Sean here. Nice post, except why limit yourself to
being only as good a leader as a man? Aim a little
higher. Women benefit every time someone raises the
bar for being a "good leader". Who better than a woman
to do that job?
The guys are only complaining because the women who
lead usually get to dance with the best followers. If
there are 7 really good followers at a milonga, and
three women are leading, that leaves only one good
follower for us guys!
Sean ;->
P.S. to everyone else: In addition to logic, I'm very
good at math. If my numbers don't make sense to you,
ask a geek for help. Don't be the fool who publically
challenges them on the list.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
http://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:40:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com, tango-l@mit.edu
Dear Tine:
No one frowns on it. It is US American Tango. People
get upset when you call it Argetine Tango.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi
> In my club, a year or two ago, some girls were
> starting to lead. It's fun, it's a new skill, and we
> would do it whenever we felt like it. Since our
> gender balance is usually fairly close to equal,
> some of the guys found themselves on the sidelines
> without a partner, watching the goings on. When
> there were several, they would usually start
> complaining, of course they also found it secretly
> exciting, but that's another story. Several
> suggested I email out an executive order that there
> shall be no more such girl-leading while there were
> perfectly good guys right there. I did not, of
> course. We like to dance with guys, but we also like
> to lead. They felt kinda stupid all the while they
> were yammering. Then somehow they decided they would
> try following and still dance with the girls. Last
> year we started a separate mini-practica of which
> the condition was that people lead and follow the
> same amount of time. So we still dance with guys but
> we get to lead them half the time. The
> guys in the practica are getting really good at
> following and the girls at leading, especially from
> trying it on guys. It spills over into social
> dancing somewhat and it's a lot of fun. We are all
> becoming better dancers.
> I don't really care whether this would be frowned
> upon in Argentina (or in Texas). Go ahead, make my
> day!
> Tine
>
> Tine
>
> Lois Donnay <donnay@donnay.net> wrote:
> Not only that, but we are shaping what exists in
> Buenos Aires. When I lead in
> practicas and lessons in BsAs, Argentine women will
> ask me later to dance with
> them in the milonga (early, though-later and the
> "old guard" will get
> upset.) I
> have also led men (Argentine) in the milongas in
> BsAs.
>
> Would this have happened without us foreigners in
> BsAs? Maybe. But not as
> quickly. Would tango be as popular in BsAs without
> us? Maybe, but not as much.
> Who can tell? Who gets to decide?
>
> Some philosopher once said "You can't look at a
> thing without changing it".
> Maybe we non-Argentines have been looking at this
> too much.
>
> Lois in Minneapolis (Loisita is B Aires)
>
> > So the question I wonder and am interested in
> asking the community is are
> > there those trying to replicate what exists in
> Buenos Aires, or are we
> > ourselves shaping what it is going to look like
> here in the States?
> >
> > Scott
> >
>
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
>
>
> ************************
> www.yaletangoclub.org
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2006 21:59:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading Why I think that the Argentines
have it right and we have it wrong in the USA.
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Dear All:
Why I think that the Argentines have it right and we
have it wrong in the USA.
Flipping back and forth and changing roles constantly
by bending the rules, just because one is unsuccessful
in a chosen role is a bad thing. This is what I see
too many women in the USA do in tango when they cannot
get a man's attention. To me it is wrong. They do not
get attention because they are usually very bad
dancers...lol. (...and they usually tell you that they
are tango teachers to cover up their lack of
skill and charm...lol) Good dancers always get dances,
and they rarely tell you that they are good dancers or
tango teachers or whatever. Anyway, this is my
opinion. Have a great day.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 12:46:51 -0400
From: jackie ling wong <jackie.wong@adelphia.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] women leading
greetings..
well i lead in buenos aires... in classes and at the milongas.. i
lead friends of mine who are very good and sensitive dancers. i have
also led an Argentine male friend of mine who is an excellent
follower. women seek me out in classes (argentine and visitors) and
everyone is surprised that i , a woman, lead as well as i do. i
think i receive more compliments than complaints and surprisingly
probably get asked to dance more after i lead. maybe everyone is
more forgiving because i am an norte americana. :-)
why do i lead? because i love the opportunity to interpret the music
with a good follower (male or female)... yes, i can also interpret
the music as a follower but it's not the same for me.
i have found that as a follower there are definitely, for lack of a
better word, "masculine" qualities in my role and i also feel
"feminine" qualities when i lead... so for me, it feels easy to make
the transition with a slight adjustment. it's very zen the
conversation of tango. the give and take... the message... maybe
my asianess makes me more comfortable with this concept. :-)
when we are following, we are always dancing another person's
dance.... yes we have adornments etc... but generally it's someone
else's vocabulary. on the other hand, this is what makes being a
follower so exciting because you never know what the leader will
bring to the dance. the unexpected...that moment when you
connect... very powerful...but sometimes, i want to be the one who is
leading the conversation... making the suggestions... setting the
tone... and of course listening to my partner's reply which opens
the door for endless possibilities.
what's interesting is that i am probably more picky about who i dance
with as a leader.. and i have tried to figure that out for myself.
one reason i'm sure is that i am small and have a chronic muscle
issue so i can't dance to followers that are heavy or out of control.
i think the other is because of the reason i lead in the first
place... if a follower is basically "leading" because they
anticipate, are heavy and pull, or are just out of control than my
role as leader is minimal. i'm following again...it's no longer a
conversation.
i guess i could say the same for following... there are some leaders
that want you to disappear as a follower... that's okay sometimes but
i definitely prefer someone who wants me present.
this is the way i feel about what i do... you're totally welcome to
feel differently and to act differently... but don't try to make me
into you...
jackie
www.tangopulse.net
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 10:26:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: God <bailartangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I couldn't imagine sitting out out a dance or having to settle for a crappy partner.
Sweet if whoever, can learn whatever, in able to dance.
I'm with Keith, a few times a year, i'll dance with other guys.
Its a trip. Ideally, a women rocks. Guys have big hands, fur everywhere.
Women smell nice, soft skin, curves...
Leading is a trip to: followers will share in the experience you're helping to
create...damndest thing.
Blab-away for as little as 1?/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 18:24:51 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Women leading I
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I made a summary of the answers so far, later perhaps we could discuss some
of the following ideas a little further. Sergio
Janis shares with us Ricardo Vidart's opinion on the subject of women
leading in tango : she says
"He didn't comment on the
subject of women learning to lead other than saying, "I don't believe that a
women should dance tango as a man" and said he would share his comments with
me at another time. Ricardo didn't advocate women learning to lead in
order to teach."
This is an opinion that most Argentines both women and men agree with. I do
not think that it has anything to do with machismo, it has to do with many
other elements that are implied in tango dancing.
Do you know anything about this?
Sergio
1 - Women leading men look finel, are very connected, both partners are
having a great time.
Isn't it true that at the beginning, when tango first began, men were
dancing with men before they became "learned" enough in order to dance with
a woman?
Why couldn't that be the case for women? Why wouldn't a woman want to learn
to lead so she would learn to become an even better follower?
What's wrong with wanting to learn more about tango from your partner's
perspective? I mean, really, what's going to happen if a woman learns to
lead? Will the world of tango fall off its axis?
Caroline Pollack
2 - To have a well behaved dog never let her lead you
pulling on the leash in front of you...Lucia
Why not forget about Tango for a moment, come to live for a few months in
Argentina of the common non-dancing folk and try to understand their
mentality
and way of life?
3 - One has to decide what one wants to do best, and learn
ones own skill, instead of trying control everything
that everyone else is doing. Derik.
So why do US Americans tango
teachers insist on calling our USA style of tango
"Argentine tango", when in fact it is not the real
thing at all. Our US American tango is only a bad
imitation of the real thing. Derik
Flipping back and forth and changing roles constantly
by bending the rules, just because one is unsuccessful
in a chosen role is a bad thing. This is what I see
too many women in the USA do in tango when they cannot
get a man's attention. To me it is wrong. They do not
get attention because they are usually very bad
dancers...lol. (...and they usually tell you that they
are tango teachers to cover up their lack of
skill and charm...lol)
4 - In the milongas of Buenos Aires, I have yet to see women leading women.
Women have such beauty to add to the dance as women.... and all the focus is
on that. I agree with this position, and that women leading women as a
learning tool should be reserved for practicas and classrooms.
Scott Bennett
5 - What a crock! why is it that a woman can't be as good
a leader as a man, and still be a good follower? I've
seen it, i've danced on either side of it, I know it
is possible. I think the naysaysers are just
threatened. Kat
6 - When in Pisa, do as the Pisans do -- lean with it.
When in BsAs follow the local custom.
Martin Waxman
7 - Even today when I have difficulty with a figure, my teacher,
Joe, will lead me so I can try and figure out how to lead it
correctly and what I'm doing wrong.
I wonder if some women learn to lead because they are so
dissatisfied with the leaders in their community. Are they
sending a message?
Michael Ditkoff
8 - I started tango that it is taught asymmetrically even though the motions
of both parties are the pretty much the same once they get proficient.
It also has impressed me that the learning curve is therefore steeper
than it need be. I've also noticed that all the really good tango
teachers I've run into know how to lead and follow and often suggest it
to their students.
Jeff Gaynor
9 - Would tango be as popular in BsAs without us? Maybe, but not as much.
Who can tell? Who gets to decide?
Some philosopher once said "You can't look at a thing without changing it".
Maybe we non-Argentines have been looking at this too much.
Lois in Minneapolis (Loisita is B Aires)
10 - For me, Tango is not a furtherance of tradition as define
by a select few, but fun and enjoyment that grows from a tradition, a
tradition if I have been reading my history correctly, that has grown on
change,
albeit slow at times, but never the lessB change.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle
11 - At times at some places there was not enough of dancers of the opposite
gender. So what?
For me to "follow" is to be able to perceive and react to the lead well.
This is it. Just a name. Because of my limitation in language and culture, I
do not sense any negative connotations. I could say "feeling". There is such
thing like "feeling of the partner".
Igor Polk
12 - In my club, a year or two ago, some girls were starting to lead. It's
fun,
it's a new skill, and we would do it whenever we felt like it. Since our
gender
balance is usually fairly close to equal, some of the guys found themselves
on
the sidelines without a partner, watching the goings on. When there were
several, they would usually start complaining, of course they also found it
secretly exciting, but that's another story. Tine
13 - Hopefully all the men who never or rarely have
been lead (how about closing your eyes to give
up all control), should check their
"macho-meter" and try it! It is a great
experience, lots of things to be discovered; you
might like it in the end!?
Who cares what they do in Argentina, they were
the ones bringing it to the world in the first
place (was it Paris?). So now Tango is free, no
rules ...Who ownes my Tango? Me!
Miha Glockenspiel
14 - The guys are only complaining because the women who
lead usually get to dance with the best followers. If
there are 7 really good followers at a milonga, and
three women are leading, that leaves only one good
follower for us guys!
Sean ;->
15 - But that doesn't matter - wherever you are, there are lovely women
dancers
who are starting to lead out of necessity. In so many communities, women
just get bored. If they don't lead, they sit way too much. Not hard to
empathize. More and more opportunities all the time now.
There are occasional times when another guy and I will dance a song just
for fun - because not much is happening. Empty place type thing. Maybe
twice a year. And we'll switch parts and enjoy 6 minutes of challenge. And
it is really fun, because women who lead tend to be kind of soft. To have
a firm lead is a bit of a relief for a male follower.
There is no way that is THE way. Never was. The Argentines have always
taken their lead from the rest of the world after their initial outburts
of genius. They invented it and would *perhaps* have lost it long ago
without outside influence. History tells us so.
Keith
16 - well i lead in buenos aires... in classes and at the milongas.. i
lead friends of mine who are very good and sensitive dancers. i have
also led an Argentine male friend of mine who is an excellent
follower. women seek me out in classes (argentine and visitors) and
everyone is surprised that i , a woman, lead as well as i do. i
think i receive more compliments than complaints and surprisingly
probably get asked to dance more after i lead. maybe everyone is
more forgiving because i am an norte americana. :-)
Jackie Wong
17 - Now, I take issue with this deference to BA, but not simply (a) because
I live in DC, or (b) because we don't have the crowded-floor
contingencies that make close-embrace dancing the only viable option.
There's more to it than that. Even if I lived in Buenos Aires itself, I
would still spare myself the kow-tow because, in point of fact, there
has always been dispute, conflict, and competition over dancing styles
there. If the city is definitively anything, it is definitively divided.
Jake Spatz
18 - I couldn't imagine sitting out out a dance or having to settle for a
crappy
partner.
Sweet if whoever, can learn whatever, in able to dance.
I'm with Keith, a few times a year, i'll dance with other guys.
Its a trip. Ideally, a women rocks. Guys have big hands, fur everywhere.
Women smell nice, soft skin, curves...
Leading is a trip to: followers will share in the experience you're
helping to
create...damndest thing.
God
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 21:15:31 GMT
From: "dubrovay@juno.com" <dubrovay@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
The words in spanish are, lead=llevar-------follow= seguir.
Elemer in Redmond.
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 17:35:32 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women leading I
To: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
So far, the discussion is all in moral terms.
The arguments for tend to be appeals to practicality and/or quality.
Some arguments against, like Ricardo Vidort's, are appeals to tradition.
However, some arguments against amount to an appeal to "natural law",
with some but not all such arguments carrying a background assuption
that dancing with someone implies the possibility they might be getting
down and dirty later. That is partially true, part of the time.
The important thing I notice about traditions is that the story (lifestyle
consciousness) about traditions rarely relate to their economic benefits
for cultures in terms of buffering unpredictability one way or another.
In purely economic terms, women leading women reduce the availablity
of partners for male dancers, and raise the standard they have to meet in
order to reliably secure dance partners. Some might say the backlash is
all about men who can't dance getting a free pass on account of having a
Y chromosome.
There are multiple wins for women implied in women dancing together:
A) If they just want good dances, they can dance with women as well as
men and increase their options.
B) If they are using tango to sort potential male partners for the
horizontal
mambo, dancing with women sorts out perceived quitters and weaklings,
and challenges the remainder to step it up.
C) If there is an extreme shortage of men, women dancing together
is a win for sisterhood.
Only when the cost of dancing with other women exceeds the benefits,
will it ever end. There are 2 ways to do that: increase the direct costs
by creating negative social consequnces (essentially, namecalling and
other modes of expressing disapproval), or increasing the cost of
opportunity (dancing with a woman means passing up a more desirable,
male partner more often).
Christopher
Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> I made a summary of the answers so far, later perhaps we could discuss
> some of the following ideas a little further. Sergio
>
> Janis shares with us Ricardo Vidart's opinion on the subject of women
> leading in tango : she says
>
> "He didn't comment on the
> subject of women learning to lead other than saying, "I don't believe
> that a
> women should dance tango as a man" and said he would share his
> comments with
> me at another time. Ricardo didn't advocate women learning to lead in
> order to teach."
>
> This is an opinion that most Argentines both women and men agree
> with. I do not think that it has anything to do with machismo, it has
> to do with many other elements that are implied in tango dancing.
>
> Do you know anything about this?
>
> Sergio
>
> 1 - Women leading men look finel, are very connected, both partners
> are having a great time.
>
> Isn't it true that at the beginning, when tango first began, men were
> dancing with men before they became "learned" enough in order to dance
> with a woman?
>
> Why couldn't that be the case for women? Why wouldn't a woman want to
> learn to lead so she would learn to become an even better follower?
>
> What's wrong with wanting to learn more about tango from your
> partner's perspective? I mean, really, what's going to happen if a
> woman learns to lead? Will the world of tango fall off its axis?
>
> Caroline Pollack
>
>
> 2 - To have a well behaved dog never let her lead you
> pulling on the leash in front of you...Lucia
>
> Why not forget about Tango for a moment, come to live for a few
> months in
> Argentina of the common non-dancing folk and try to understand their
> mentality
> and way of life?
>
>
> 3 - One has to decide what one wants to do best, and learn
> ones own skill, instead of trying control everything
> that everyone else is doing. Derik.
>
> So why do US Americans tango
> teachers insist on calling our USA style of tango
> "Argentine tango", when in fact it is not the real
> thing at all. Our US American tango is only a bad
> imitation of the real thing. Derik
>
> Flipping back and forth and changing roles constantly
> by bending the rules, just because one is unsuccessful
> in a chosen role is a bad thing. This is what I see
> too many women in the USA do in tango when they cannot
> get a man's attention. To me it is wrong. They do not
> get attention because they are usually very bad
> dancers...lol. (...and they usually tell you that they
> are tango teachers to cover up their lack of
> skill and charm...lol)
>
> 4 - In the milongas of Buenos Aires, I have yet to see women leading
> women.
> Women have such beauty to add to the dance as women.... and all the
> focus is
> on that. I agree with this position, and that women leading women as a
> learning tool should be reserved for practicas and classrooms.
> Scott Bennett
>
> 5 - What a crock! why is it that a woman can't be as good
> a leader as a man, and still be a good follower? I've
> seen it, i've danced on either side of it, I know it
> is possible. I think the naysaysers are just
> threatened. Kat
>
> 7 - Even today when I have difficulty with a figure, my teacher,
> Joe, will lead me so I can try and figure out how to lead it
> correctly and what I'm doing wrong.
>
> I wonder if some women learn to lead because they are so
> dissatisfied with the leaders in their comm
>
> 6 - When in Pisa, do as the Pisans do -- lean with it.
> When in BsAs follow the local custom.
> Martin Waxman
>
> 7 - Even today when I have difficulty with a figure, my teacher,
> Joe, will lead me so I can try and figure out how to lead it
> correctly and what I'm doing wrong.
>
> I wonder if some women learn to lead because they are so
> dissatisfied with the leaders in their community. Are they
> sending a message?
>
> Michael Ditkoff
>
> 8 - I started tango that it is taught asymmetrically even though the
> motions
> of both parties are the pretty much the same once they get proficient.
> It also has impressed me that the learning curve is therefore steeper
> than it need be. I've also noticed that all the really good tango
> teachers I've run into know how to lead and follow and often suggest it
> to their students.
> Jeff Gaynor
>
> 9 - Would tango be as popular in BsAs without us? Maybe, but not as much.
> Who can tell? Who gets to decide?
>
> Some philosopher once said "You can't look at a thing without changing
> it".
> Maybe we non-Argentines have been looking at this too much.
>
> Lois in Minneapolis (Loisita is B Aires)
>
> 10 - For me, Tango is not a furtherance of tradition as define
> by a select few, but fun and enjoyment that grows from a tradition, a
> tradition if I have been reading my history correctly, that has grown on
> change,
> albeit slow at times, but never the less? change.
> Just some thoughts,
> Bill in Seattle
>
> 11 - At times at some places there was not enough of dancers of the
> opposite
> gender. So what?
>
> For me to "follow" is to be able to perceive and react to the lead well.
> This is it. Just a name. Because of my limitation in language and
> culture, I
> do not sense any negative connotations. I could say "feeling". There
> is such
> thing like "feeling of the partner".
> Igor Polk
>
> 12 - In my club, a year or two ago, some girls were starting to lead.
> It's fun,
> it's a new skill, and we would do it whenever we felt like it. Since
> our gender
> balance is usually fairly close to equal, some of the guys found
> themselves on
> the sidelines without a partner, watching the goings on. When there were
> several, they would usually start complaining, of course they also
> found it
> secretly exciting, but that's another story. Tine
>
> 13 - Hopefully all the men who never or rarely have
> been lead (how about closing your eyes to give
> up all control), should check their
> "macho-meter" and try it! It is a great
> experience, lots of things to be discovered; you
> might like it in the end!?
>
> Who cares what they do in Argentina, they were
> the ones bringing it to the world in the first
> place (was it Paris?). So now Tango is free, no
> rules ...Who ownes my Tango? Me!
> Miha Glockenspiel
>
> 14 - The guys are only complaining because the women who
> lead usually get to dance with the best followers. If
> there are 7 really good followers at a milonga, and
> three women are leading, that leaves only one good
> follower for us guys!
>
> Sean ;->
>
> 15 - But that doesn't matter - wherever you are, there are lovely
> women dancers
> who are starting to lead out of necessity. In so many communities, women
> just get bored. If they don't lead, they sit way too much. Not hard to
> empathize. More and more opportunities all the time now.
>
> There are occasional times when another guy and I will dance a song just
> for fun - because not much is happening. Empty place type thing. Maybe
> twice a year. And we'll switch parts and enjoy 6 minutes of challenge.
> And
> it is really fun, because women who lead tend to be kind of soft. To have
> a firm lead is a bit of a relief for a male follower.
>
> There is no way that is THE way. Never was. The Argentines have always
> taken their lead from the rest of the world after their initial outburts
> of genius. They invented it and would *perhaps* have lost it long ago
> without outside influence. History tells us so.
>
> Keith
>
> 16 - well i lead in buenos aires... in classes and at the milongas.. i
>
> 11 - At times at some places there was not enough of dancers of the
> opposite
> gender. So what?
>
> For me to "follow" is to be able to perceive and react to the lead well.
> This is it. Just a name. Because of my limitation in language and
> culture, I
> do not sense any negative connotations. I could say "feeling". There
> is such
> thing like "feeling of the partner".
> lead friends of mine who are very good and sensitive dancers. i have
> also led an Argentine male friend of mine who is an excellent
> follower. women seek me out in classes (argentine and visitors) and
> everyone is surprised that i , a woman, lead as well as i do. i
> think i receive more compliments than complaints and surprisingly
> probably get asked to dance more after i lead. maybe everyone is
> more forgiving because i am an norte americana. :-)
> Jackie Wong
>
> 17 - Now, I take issue with this deference to BA, but not simply (a)
> because
> I live in DC, or (b) because we don't have the crowded-floor
> contingencies that make close-embrace dancing the only viable option.
> There's more to it than that. Even if I lived in Buenos Aires itself, I
> would still spare myself the kow-tow because, in point of fact, there
> has always been dispute, conflict, and competition over dancing styles
> there. If the city is definitively anything, it is definitively divided.
> Jake Spatz
>
> 18 - I couldn't imagine sitting out out a dance or having to settle
> for a crappy
> partner.
> Sweet if whoever, can learn whatever, in able to dance.
> I'm with Keith, a few times a year, i'll dance with other guys.
> Its a trip. Ideally, a women rocks. Guys have big hands, fur
> everywhere.
> Women smell nice, soft skin, curves...
> Leading is a trip to: followers will share in the experience you're
> helping to
> create...damndest thing.
> God
>
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 08:24:16 -0400
From: andrea <ako31@nyc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] women leading
To: tango-l@mit.edu
thank you for ur thoughts, jackie:
>
> i have found that as a follower there are definitely, for lack of a
> better word, "masculine" qualities in my role and i also feel
> "feminine" qualities when i lead... so for me, it feels easy to make
> the transition with a slight adjustment. it's very zen the
> conversation of tango. the give and take... the message... maybe
> my asianess makes me more comfortable with this concept. :-)