1707  Absurdities, hands, chest, body, axis

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:03:16 -0400
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Absurdities, hands, chest, body, axis

When we discuss lead, frame, axis, dancing characteristics we should specify
what style of tango we are talking about.
It seems to me that we are all right with respect to our own experiences but
we are talking about different dancing forms.

It is necessary to adjust the way we dance (the style) to the moment and the
place where we are. (the same as our discussion).

When we are in a milonguero club we dance milonguero. It we are in a New
tango club or at a place where at the moment people are dancing Nuevo tango,
we do that style.
The same for the Salon Style clubs.

Salon is the mother root of all the styles. It is varied and rich. It calls
for a close embrace, varied walks, slow romantic moments, pauses, seduction
moves, simplicity, complexity, fast whirls, turns, boleos, amagues, ganchos,
barridas, sacadas, enrosques, and a myriad of other moves. Partners are used
to the changes in character and personality of the music. There is a high
degree of alertness, strong communication, variations in frame and embrace
to allow for a rich interpretation of the music.

The right nipple of the man is placed on the chest bone of the woman, there
is V frame. This frame is firm, a slight intention of motion on either the
chest, or the arms is immediately perceived by the woman, who responds with
the appropriate movement of her body.

The lead then depends on the frame, the chest, and the arms (also the
hands). The right hand has the privilege of conveying precious information
that allows to dance with a variety of syncopations, traspie, (contrapaso),
ornaments, corridas (runs) and even if desired jumps. The left one gives
support to the lady and initiates certain movements such as free turns. The
hands are necessary to lead sacadas of the woman, to direct her to do ochos
closer or more apart from your body, they are necessary to lead very low
romantic boleos, or planeos of the woman at different degrees of lowering of
her body. To induce lateral ornaments at the salida, (leg extension) (fake
salidas), to help with endings (cuartas), etc.

The way one dances and the ornaments one uses depend on the club, the
available space, and what is acceptable in that club at that specific
moment. There are times when you dance 'tango liso' simple, walking in
close embrace and there are moments when you can do everything without
disturbing the other dancers.

When you are doing milonguero, your frame is different, you keep a close
embrace throughout the dance, you lead with your chest.
The dance is very simple, very limited, walks, syncopations (lead with the
chest) back ocho, ocho milonguero (cortado), change of front, right and left
turns. Very few people will do more than that. Rocking steps, cunitas,
calesitas, etc. It is proper for dancing in crowded clubs.

When you do Nuevo tango, the embrace is open, relaxed to allow for
over-rotation, frequent heel sacadas, etc.
The lead comes from the chest, the hands are not used, the body is used in a
different way including counter rotation around your partner to induce
boleos and amagues.

IMO is incorrect to believe that ornaments should not be used in social
dancing, or that the hands should not be used in leading.
It is a question of opportunity and preference. It is important to know
that the hands are not the only leading element, but a complement to the
other ones involved, in order to be able to lead a richer variety of
motions.

The important concept here is to teach and dance properly without disturbing
the other dancers it does not matter what style.

To those that think that using the hands to mark (lead) is a sin I would
like to ask: How does your partner lead you to lock one foot behind the
other doing contrapaso or traspie, as you walk forward and he walks
backwards. A step very much used in milonga with traspie for instance.

This is indicated by slightly lifting the right hand of the leader on the
back of the lady.

The same move as the lady travels to her right induces a syncopation to the
side. As she steps back with her right (step#3 of the base) the same lead
will induce a syncopation laterally to her left. You may induce locking of
her right foot in front of the left by pushing left her leg with your right
one, etc, etc, etc.

PS. Did I say etc? Have a good tango experience with or without
contrapasos, etc, etc, etc. :)))

Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:12:24 -0400
From: John Gleeson <jgleeson@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject: Re: Absurdities, hands, chest, body, axis

And all the while I have been dancing Tango I was under
the impression that my style (#2 below) was known as "Salon/
open embrace" and #1 below was known as "Milonguero/
Appillado/Close Embrace"!

You learn something every day :<)

John G.



1.

> Salon is the mother root of all the styles.
> The right nipple of the man is placed on the chest bone of the woman, there
> is V frame. This frame is firm, a slight intention of motion on either the
> chest, or the arms is immediately perceived by the woman, who responds with
> the appropriate movement of her body.
>

2.

> When you are doing milonguero, your frame is different, you keep a close
> embrace throughout the dance, you lead with your chest.
> The dance is very simple, very limited, walks, syncopations (lead with the
> chest) back ocho, ocho milonguero (cortado), change of front, right and left
> turns. Very few people will do more than that. Rocking steps, cunitas,
> calesitas, etc. It is proper for dancing in crowded clubs.
>

Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:30:34 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: Absurdities, hands, chest, body, axis

Hey everybody,

Sergio wrote:

> When you are doing milonguero, your frame is different, you keep a close
> embrace throughout the dance, you lead with your chest.
> The dance is very simple, very limited, walks, syncopations (lead with the
> chest) back ocho, ocho milonguero (cortado), change of front, right and left
> turns. Very few people will do more than that. Rocking steps, cunitas,
> calesitas, etc. It is proper for dancing in crowded clubs.

I differ with Sergio on this point. He claims that milonguero is very
simple and very limited. This is an often repeated misconception about
milonguero. Anyone who has spent time in Buenos Aires watching the
older dancers of this style knows this.

I think this misconception stems from a couple of sources. First
milonguero is first and foremost a social dance style. It has only
recently been taken to the stage, in a show intended to showcase real
milongueros (by this it is meant those older dancers who have spent a
large part of their lives dancing tango. Those recognized as
milongueros in Buenos Aires).

Because milonguero is a social style there is less worry about how it
looks, and teachers tend to give their students permission to dance a
simple dance. They start with walking and rhythmic rock steps, cunitas
and the like. Some students stop there assuming that they have seen the
length and breadth of this style and move on to what they think is more
advanced dancing, i.e. open embrace 'salon'.

This then leads to the second reason that milonguero is percieved as
very simple and very limited. There aren't many people in North America
who have the experience with milonguero to dance a more complex dance.
It is now a known style in North America, but it is still not well known
because it is still young here.

A third reason may be that though many people are now traveling to
Buenos Aires to experience tango at it's source, few have the ability to
dance milonguero well enough to get dances at the clubs where milonguero
is danced. Some of those old milongueros are great dancers, and the
women want to dance first with them. A foreigner may end up sitting for
days before getting a dance at those milongas, and most people end up
going elsewhere rather than staying around to see how these dancers
really dance. These days when so many people are going who have a year
or less of experience many end up dancing only with fellow foreigners in
Buenos Aires. I wonder how much this experience differs from going to
one of the better festivals in North America?

Sergio suggests that the simplicity is what enables one to dance on
crowded dance floors. The old dancers I have seen and admired dance as
complex a dance as they want regardless of the crowding. They know how
to dance in the space they stand in. They know how to share the space
around them with the other dancers. This skill alone takes years to
develop. Since we North Americans don't have to dance in such crowded
conditions most people don't really have this skill yet. This skill is
necesary if you want to dance among the milongueros in Buenos Aires.

It is easy to dismiss milonguero as simple and limited by not looking
very deeply into the style. Unfortunately the useless argument of
'authenticity' has so muddied the water that some people dismess it
without looking at all.

Happy tangos to all,

Robert

Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:55:14 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Absurdities, hands, chest, body, axis

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003, Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:

> Sergio wrote:
>
> > The dance is very simple, very limited, walks, syncopations (lead with the
> > chest) back ocho, ocho milonguero (cortado), change of front, right and left
> > turns. Very few people will do more than that. Rocking steps, cunitas,
> > calesitas, etc. It is proper for dancing in crowded clubs.
>
> I differ with Sergio on this point. He claims that milonguero is very
> simple and very limited. This is an often repeated misconception about
> milonguero. Anyone who has spent time in Buenos Aires watching the
> older dancers of this style knows this.

Here is an opportunity to refine distinctions of simplicity and
complexity. As I type I am listening to a recording from early in the
career of Miles Davis. Was his trumpet playing simple or complex?

Well, there were quite a few trumpet players who would play faster,
shriller, louder, very fancy fingerings and tonguings, so they were more
complex than Miles. He plays a much simpler style.

But it terms of nuances, subtle shadings and changes and interactions
and sheer musicality???? Oh, Miles.. how much more complex could a musician
get?

So, I can see that a more open position gives access to more observable
steps, patterns, and moves so the dancers are dancing more complexity. But
on the dimension of multilayered nuances, subtle breath and the way an arm
might be lifted just a half an inch during a moment in a phrase to subtly
express a soft change of feeling? There can be a lot of complexity in
small movements. Close embrace can be very complex if the focus is on the
feelings in the music being experienced by the partners and given rich
nuanced expression in subtle movement rather than the rhythmic complexity
of difficult steps from a large repertoire.

I don't think this is either/or but I suggest that different frames or
styles lend themselves more easily to certain approaches to interpreting
the music and that may result in them having a differential appeal to
individuals of differing personalities.

It's perhaps not that complexity or simplicity is preferable, but rather
certain personalities will be drawn to and prefer different approaches to
expressing their feelings of the music.

peace,
Jonathan Thornton