176 Appearances
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:11:43 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Appearances
Wow...
So much outrage simply because someone referred to the
importance of appearance in the "Priorities" thread.
Appearance is important in dancing. Objecting to that
statement is like objecting to the statement that how
you sound is important when you play music.
The only people who object to standards are the ones
who don't aspire to them or who do aspire to them but
fear them being applied to themselves.
Mark
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:28:12 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Appearances
Without attempting to discuss too directly the relative importance
appearances, I think what we have in social Argentine tango is the creation
of art for personal expression. In stage tango, the art is for
entertainment. These can be very different and may lead to strong
differences of opinion about the importance of appearances.
Those arguing against the importance of appearances, however, need to be
careful that the non-importance of appearances is not itself a statement
that is expressed in appearances. For instance, one might argue that
Chicho and people who have emulated his style of dress are making very
strong artistic statements about appearance that are largely for public
consumption.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 11:31:02 -0700
From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
> Mark Sussex wrote:
> ===============================
> Appearance is important in dancing. Objecting to
> that
> statement is like objecting to the statement that
> how
> you sound is important when you play music.
>
There is a subtle difference you are forgetting. To
most people, Argentine Tango is a social dance shared
between two people. There are however performances. If
you are involved in performances, then sure,
appearance is definitely important, as one quality of
the the performance is the visual aspect of it.
On the other hand, if you are dancing socially at a
milonga, then appearance is relative to the person.
Personally, I think how you feel is more important
than how you look. If it feels natural, then
everything should come together just fine. People have
also extended the meaning of appearance on this thread
to how other people in the community perceive them,
etc. As you can see, the analogy between sound &
playing music, and appearance & dancing argentine
tango may not be such a good analogy. People usually
play music to perform for other people. The analogy
being a dance performance. But if you're along in your
home playing an instrument that you love (and those of
you who do play musical instrument may be able to
vouch for me), playing a piece that you truely
identify with, you may enter another realm, and be
taken back by the connection with the music, with the
instrument, the dynamics of the music, etc. All the
while, you may not be strictly on tempo (or if you
play an instrument that requires you to produce the
right pitch, like the violin, you may be a bit off in
your pitch)... without being truely aware of this. But
man, it feels good, damn good. Same thing with
dancing.
> The only people who object to standards are the ones
> who don't aspire to them or who do aspire to them
> but
> fear them being applied to themselves.
>
I disagreee. I think in the early stages, emphasis on
appearance takes away from attention in feeling and
connection. It's unfortunate that visual stimulus is a
hugh part of Western culture (among other cultures).
Leopoldo
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:31:23 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
Mark Sussex wrote:
> Appearance is important in dancing.
All one can say is that while appearance may be important,
it may not be as important as it appears to be.
And, as a corollary, appearance which at first sight might
seem very important(closer than actually is), looking in the
rear view mirror of experience, may seem even farther
away than it actually is.
That is to say, appearance, like reality itself, seems to be elusive.
rajan.
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:09:27 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
Leopoldo Betrico writes:
<<if you're alone in your
home playing an instrument that you love ... you may
enter another realm. All the
while, you may not be strictly on tempo (or if you
play an instrument that requires you to produce the
right pitch, like the violin, you may be a bit off in
your pitch)... without being truely aware of this. But
man, it feels good, damn good. Same thing with
dancing.
>>
The author of this statement apparently wants to
refute my statement that people who object to
standards are the ones who don't aspire to them. In
fact, he supports my statement by describing someone
explicitly ignoring the standards of tempo and pitch
while, nevertheless, enjoying himself. The person he
describes is exactly the one I was describing, the one
who doesn't aspire to standards, in this case tempo
and pitch.
So is that person having fun and feeling good? If so,
fine. What he's doing is dreaming. Yes, dreaming
feels good and there's no reason you shouldn't feel
good if you want to dream. I don't object to somebody
feeling good. Just don't expect me to say that the
results you are ignoring are good or resent me because
I say that there is such a thing as standards by which
results can be judged as good or bad.
Natarajan Balasundaro writes:
<<That is to say, appearance, like reality itself,
seems to be elusive.>>
All the moreso for people who seek safety by eluding
it.
There are huge numbers of dancers in my community who
dance a lot better than I do. I don't resent them
because of their adherence to standards. I LIKE them.
I'm not intimidated by nor resentful of their
discriminating perception, fine taste, talent, hard
work and accomplishments. I'm INSPIRED by those
things.
More to the point, it wouldn't increase my enjoyment
to ignore my deficiencies and lull myself into the
sleep of believing that standards are not important;
rather it's only my intention that is, regardless of
results.
Mark
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 18:19:28 -0400
From: DANCE MORE TANGO TEES 'N THINGS <24tango@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: APPEARANCES
In response to this thread, my question is; do you want to dance or do
you want to sit and watch all nite.? I cannot speak for milongas in the
US, but in BA you better look good, be it your persona, physical attributes or dance
acumen! Granted, once you are known and established, you will dance.
But visuals are what trigger eye contact to start with.. As Leopoldo says:
It's unfortunate that visual stimulus is a
hugh part of Western culture (among other cultures).
Leopoldo
regards to the list,
norma greco
www.dancemoretango.com
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:40:13 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: APPEARANCES
Leopoldo wrote:
>It's unfortunate that visual stimulus is a
>hugh part of Western culture (among other cultures).
There is considerable scientific evidence that visual standards of beauty,
artistic form, etc. are to some extent hard-wired. Even if these standards
were purely cultural, it would not be surprising to find them expressed in
the evaluation of artistic pursuits such as tango--whether that evaluation
be of as simple as the selection of dance partners or the evaluation of a
performance.
I would have to add appearances to the list of priorties, along with
musicality, technique, steps. Fortunately, the use of good technique
usually generates good appearances *and* comfortable dancing.
--Steve de Tejas
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:24:59 -0700
From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
--- Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> I don't object to
> somebody
> feeling good. Just don't expect me to say that the
> results you are ignoring are good or resent me
> because
> I say that there is such a thing as standards by
> which
> results can be judged as good or bad.
>
That's exactly my point. In tango, I do not seek
acceptance, approval, praises, worship, etc. from
people who are watching. All I want is to share a
connection and something special with the person I'm
dancing with. Same goes for playing my instrument
alone in my home or at a park. A connection with
myself, my instrument, and the music.
Now, if I'm performing, then that's a whole different
story. A good performance usually requires you to
engage the audience. My fear is that more and more
people are performing at milongas all over the world
(driven by appearance). I don't necessarily resent it.
It just makes me sad to see people neglecting a
special part of the dance. That's all.
And Mark, I don't resent you. I barely know you :)
Now, standards.... That would be a different thread.
Leopoldo
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 23:41:27 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
----- Original Message -----
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:56:00 -0600
From: "Bruno E. Romero" <romerob@CADVISION.COM>
Subject: Appearances
It seems to me that what captivated the North American audiences since the
first Argentine Tango shows (Tango for Export) were seen on stage remains
true today. An audience who is interested primarily in the performing side
of the AT dance and less on the social side of it.
When Argentine Tango (the stage form) was introduced to the North American
public it captivated the NA audience for what they saw on stage -- routines,
choreography, acrobatics, etc. At the end of the AT show people from the
audience asked the performers to teach them what they saw on stage. The AT
performers who knew only show routines taught them exactly that. Other times
the performers who were made in dance halls of Mar del Plata found it very
difficult to explain to the inquisitive audience that the correct way to
dance Argentine Tango was very different from what they saw on stage. Since
the introduction of Argentine Tango in North America (NA) to this date there
is a still an audience who remains interested in the performing and flashy
side of the AT dance, but there is also a growing audience who seeks to
learn the more authentic and less flashy side of the AT dance.
Bruno
* tangocalgary@cadvision.com
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 21:43:04 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
--- Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> It is no surprise that the young, good looking,
> skilled dancers are quite
> sought after by the women in the milongas. The other
> side of the coin is
> also true, the young, attractive *good* dancer women
> are also much sought
> after.
Make no mistake... some of us are pretty enamored of
chasing the attractive, good dancer women who are not
necessarily so young. Yayyyy
Mark
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 00:56:05 -0700
From: Linda Valentino <lindavalentino@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Appearances
Dear List--
I read the Wednesday digest after returning from a milonga. Interestingly,
there was a woman at the milonga whom I have not seen around the L.A. tango
scene for at least five years. She is a very well known choreographer/dancer
who works regularly in the entertainment industry. She never quite "got" the
dance the last time she tried it but is back to give it another try. At one
point during the evening she turned to me and pointed out a very pretty
young woman who obviously had a lot of dance training and said, "She's
really good isn't she?" Granted, the young woman had a very regal look, the
typical ballerina's well developed arch and instep--which made her feet look
very nice--and a number of fancy embellishments. To me, however, she looked
stiff, unnatural and like she probably didn't feel that good to her partner.
I replied to the choreographer that looks can be deceiving, that you really
never know just how good (or bad) someone is until you've actually danced
with them. The young woman happened to be dancing with a friend of mine who
is a pretty good dancer. When he returned to our table, I asked him how she
was to dance with. He replied, "She's maybe an advanced beginner, and she
doesn't feel very good." The choreographer was surprised. Now granted, the
choreographer doesn't have a tango-educated eye yet, but I'd bet that most
of the people in the room also thought that the young woman was a very good
dancer, just on the basis of how her dancing looked from the outside. I'd
also bet that most of us have had the experience of dancing with someone we
expected to be really good from their outer appearance, but then we were
surprised when the dance felt not so good--or even bad. (I'm speaking here
of physical feeling, not emotional feeling.) On the other hand, I've had the
experience of accepting a dance with someone who didn't look very good from
the outside, only to be delighted to find out that he felt wonderful. There
are certain things that can't always be seen from the outside, for instance,
how much weight the woman is putting on the man's neck/shoulders with her
arm when dancing in close embrace, or how comfortable a man's embrace feels
to the woman. I'm all for people striving to look as good as they can when
they dance, but remember, all that glitters is not gold.
Regards,
--Linda Valentino
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:38:45 -0400
From: Ba Tango <rhink2@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Appearances
Hola All,
I think the "jihad" I've observed on this thread stems from the fact
that appearance in a dance community as in any community is highly
individualistic. Personally, I feel that dancing is dancing and dressing
up is dressing up; others feel that the two are inseparable. I respect
the latter opinion, but I don't subscribe to it.
Here are a couple of observations. During the revival of Lindy Hop and
retro-swing music, many people where I live would put on their zoot suits
and bobby socks and go dancing. They may not have been the most skilled
dancers, but clearly they had fun wearing vintage clothing and reliving
their grandparents' era. I say if it enhances the dance experience, do it.
The second observation is from a personal experience. I spontaneusly dropped in on dance that was a little out of my neighborhood. I was
casually dressed but clean. I asked a woman for a dance. She looked me
up and down and then asked, "Do you know this dance?" I replied, "A bit."
To which she said, "Then I'll dance with you a bit."
After about 3 steps she realized that I knew much more about the dance
than did she. Clearly a case of "judging a book by it's cover". But
the take-home message for me was when in Rome dress as the Romans lest
you be challenged to prove worth.
Bob Hink
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:17:22 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
Hi,
I'm afraid this "appearances" thread is quickly unraveling. As usual, any
topic of discussion can and often will take sudden and unexpected turns. I
too have been fooled before by dancers who appeared to dance very well but
upon first hand experience, they proved to be unable to dance at all. They
were just skilled at doing a choreographed routine with their usual partner
and could not *really* dance. I've even seen some of this in my A/T travels
in and out of the US.
Naturally, there will always be situations such as these where the people
have mastered a routine but cannot dance improvisationally at all. OTOH,
I've watched many excellent dancers dance at milongas and have seen them
dance with a variety of partners. By now, I have enough knowledge of the
dances to appreciate good dancing and given enough time I can even
differentiate a good, musical dancer from a choreographed show. My personal
experience is that if a dancer looks like he or she is moving with grace,
ease and smoothness along with his/her partner and with the music, they are
probably more pleasant to dance with than some dancer who is obviously
tripping on their own or their partners feet, appear out of balance or
affect strange or contorted poses. While it is true that not all that
glitters is gold and one cannot judge a book by its cover, it is generally
easier to cull the potentially bad partners by watching them on the dance
floor.
Another turn this topic is now taking is about some sort of "period dress"
for tango. Personally, I think that outside of a show, dressing in some sort
of contrived tango fashion is ridiculous. I feel the same way about wearing
zoot suits to go swing dancing too, but that is just my personal opinion. If
someone wants to look like a caricature of a whore or a pimp at a milonga,
well, they are certainly within their right to do so, likewise with the zoot
suits at swing dances. I'm not discussing the merits or pitfalls of wearing
costumes. My discussion of appearances is about contemporary and up-to-date
fashion. I contend that projecting an esthetically appealing image is
preferable than projecting an ugly or ungainly image. This is equally
important in one's dance as well as in one's demeanor, dress, etc.
Additionally, there are certain fashions or styles that are the "norm" for
the tango scene. I don't know how they came to be, but they exist. It is
just like a CW bar, you can go there wearing your Stetson and your tooled
leather boots and feel quite at home, at a milonga however, such a get up
will definitely clash with the whole tango scene. To go to a milonga, one
dresses as one would to go dancing at any club or to a more or less formal
party. Once there, one tries to behave with decorum and class.
Good appearance and dance technique are not the same thing as whore/pimp
clothes and stage choreography. The importance of appearances and the use of
good dance technique is to me the adherence to personal hygiene and good
grooming, plus the execution of smooth, measured, musical movements in
recognizable tango fashion, without interfering with others on the dance
floor. Looking good on the social dance floor is definitely not achieved by
dancing big stage choreographies and show moves regardless of how well they
are performed. You'll also not make many points if your dancing is awkward,
clumsy and off the beat, no matter how you choose to interpret the dance.
But make no mistake, people will watch and judge. It is better to dance well
and look good. This way one gets a lot more opportunities to dance!
Cheers,
Manuel
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:19:20 -0400
From: Ba Tango <rhink2@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: AW: Appearances
Hello Listeros,
Benjamin asked me to forward this message for him.
Bob
======================================================
Bob wrote:
: The second observation is from a personal experience. I spontaneusly
: dropped in on dance that was a little out of my neighborhood. I was
: casually dressed but clean. I asked a woman for a dance. She looked me
: up and down and then asked, "Do you know this dance?" I replied, "A bit."
: To which she said, "Then I'll dance with you a bit."
: After about 3 steps she realized that I knew much more about the dance
: than did she. Clearly a case of "judging a book by it's cover". But
: the take-home message for me was when in Rome dress as the Romans lest
: you be challenged to prove worth.
Funnily enough, I had a similar but opposite experience yesterday at a
practica.
I was commenting to a friend that my "batting average" for picking partners I enjoyed dancing with was getting better, and I explained that
the manner of dress and choice of shoes often provided good hints for me
on the amount of dance experience and/or preferred dance style of the
various women, when I hadn't already seen them on the dance floor.
As it turned out, there was a lady whom I didn't invite to dance, but
who I much later observed to be quite a good dancer. My loss. So that
forced a rethink, but I concluded that a checklist of sorts is necessary
to some extent, because there is simply not enough time to ask everybody
to dance or to observe everybody on the dance floor. Someone has to be
everyone's first partner! One needs to choose somehow, and if one has to
choose, one might as well try to choose well. And unfortunately no method
is foolproof.
But I really agree with Norma Greco's comment that one should somehow try
to look good if one expects to dance, whether leader or follower. At any
sort of social gathering it never hurts to be clean, smell nice, look
neat, etc. Trying to hide a less-than-perfect body or other imperfections,
perceived or otherwise, will only drive people away and exacerbate
matters. There are large women I really enjoy dancing with, because they
have no qualms about themselves - "I'm big, deal with it" and shapely
women with whom it doesn't feel right because they always seem to be
worrying about something - "I'm not slim enough etc".
Cultivating confidence and a friendly personality will help attract
people - and dance invitations.
Dressing to stand out will definitely attract extra attention, obviously.
My lady friends have personally observed that being the only lady in red
in a room where every other lady is in black results in many more
invitations than normal.
And of course, not all the invitations are from good dancers, but it's certainly better than getting lost in the sea of like colours and not
getting any invitations at all.
Benjamin
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:37:25 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
Linda Valentino wrote:
> There are certain things that can't always be seen from the outside, for
> instance,
> how much weight the woman is putting on the man's neck/shoulders with her
> arm when dancing in close embrace, or how comfortable a man's embrace feels
> to the woman.
I would agree. Looks are important mostly the first time when one dances with
someone else-- to get the first dance. But, after that, whether someone wants to
dance with the other person does not seem to depend much on looks.
rajan.
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:00:28 -0700
From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
--- Manuel Patino <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is quite the rugged individualist approach.
> "I'm doing this my way and
> I don't care about anyone elses' opinion". I'm not
> going to find fault with
> anyone's philosophy or values, but I do find it
> curious why would such a
> person feel the need to make a public statement?
Hello Manuel, the reason for my contribution to the
list is that I care very much about the direction of
Argentine Tango as a community and as a dance.
Particularly (and fortunately), there are always new
people discovering the dance. It is my intent to share
my views with the newcomers. I have experienced and
discovered many wonderful things in the dance and
music (and hopefully many more to come). I would like
nothing more than allowing the newcomers to share
those experiences. My original statement was that
there are many facets to tango. Some are a consequence
of others. For me dance appeareance (in terms of
looking good and elegant) is just a consequence of
dancing naturally, being comfortable, and confident.
Not the other way around. Again, it's just my personal
view. I would like the newcomers to consider this view
as an alternative to concentrating first and foremost
on how you look while you're dancing. If it feels
natural, the rest, as they say, should just come.
> If
> one does not care about
> ones appearance or others' opinion or perception,
> why dance tango in a
> public place such as a milonga? If I wanted to just
> share an intimate
> connection with another person I might choose a more
> private place ;-)
>
Alas, my friend, I am a old man of modest means. I
have been dancing for quite sometime now and find that
neighborhood milongas are quite a nice venue to meet
and share something special (and sometimes intimate).
If I had financial means, yes, perhaps I would hosts
milongas at my personal home. But that would mean that
I would need a bigger house. Did I say that correctly?
> > I don't necessarily resent it.
> > It just makes me sad to see people neglecting a
> > special part of the dance. That's all.
>
> What makes you think that the good dancers (those
> who can dance well and
> look good doing it) are neglecting anything? How can
> you asertain this?
Now you are putting words in my mouth, my friend. I
did not specifically say "good dancers (those who can
dance well and look good doing it)" are neglecting
something. I merely said "It makes me sad to see
people neglecting a special part of the dance". The
word I used was "people". From my experiences and
observations, if people are aware and "concentrating"
on people who are watching them, it's quite difficult
to venture into the internal land. Of course,
everybody is different, so we may never really know
for sure... But then at this point, we are venturing
into a discussion of philosophy.
> Would you
> say that a dance that is
> obviously well done and pleasant to watch is
> automatically a shallow or
> un-emotional dance?
No, I would not say that. But again, "pleasant to
watch" is relative to the person who is watching. I
enjoy watching demos (demonstrations) of couples where
they seem to be intricately involved that it doesn't
appear that they are aware/or care that there are
other people watching them. Getting back to your
question, the two are not logically equivalent. i.e.,
a visually pleasant dance (which is very relative to
the person watching) does not imply a
shallow/un-emotional dance. And conversely a
shallow/un-emotional dance does not imply a visually
pleasant dance. Nor does its contrapositive. But I
digress.
To reiterate my friend, I did *NOT* say
"If you look good dancing, then you are not internally
connected"
"If you look bad dancing, then you are connected"
"If you look good, you are connected"
"If you look bad, you are not connected"
Please re-read the end of my first paragraph above.
And I did enjoy Bruno's posting.
Leopoldo
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 21:29:53 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
Leopoldo Betrico wrote:
> To reiterate my friend, I did *NOT* say
> "If you look good dancing, then you are not internally
> connected"
> "If you look bad dancing, then you are connected"
> "If you look good, you are connected"
> "If you look bad, you are not connected"
Just recently I got an e-mail asking which planet I was from -- implying
those who are not moved by beauty ought to be from another planet
(afterall if aristotle was moved by it, lesser mortals better be?)
I guess, all I was trying to say was something along the lines
that beauty mearly enhances what is aleady there but does not alter it.
Someone who is beautiful dances well will be considered very good(the
same level of skill which in others might have been considered as
just about ok) and if they were to dance even a little badly, they might
be percieved as a very bad dancer...
rajan.
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 19:03:39 -0700
From: Deborah Holm <deborah.holm@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject: Appearances
When you guys are done debating the issue of
appearances, could you let the women know what
was the outcome?
So we might know what to expect?
Deborah
San Francisco, California, USA
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:37:55 -0400
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Appearances
Deborah Holm wrote:
> When you guys are done debating the issue of
> appearances, could you let the women know what
> was the outcome? So we might know what to expect?
It is not just guys discussing...I hope it was mostly
open. In any case, women mostly try to impress other
women and may be it is no different in tango:
https://www.theage.com.au/news/19991122/A56187-1999Nov21.html
rajan.
