4343  Back leading - Electra

Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 16:49:56 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Back leading - Electra
To: tango-l@mit.edu

You know that we need two to tango.

In any activity that we as a group take part in, there is one that leads and
others that follow.

Four people ride in a car, one drives and the other three ride *and do not
interfere with his driving".
Should one of the passengers in the car attempt to take control of the
steering wheel the car will sway from side to side and lose its smooth ride.

In dancing the leader gives signals (marca - lleva) to communicate to the
follower what he has in mind, what movements he wishes her to execute. The
better he leads, the smoother the dance will be.

When the follower does things on her own that are not lead by the man this
is called "Back leading".

This interferes with the leader's thought process who, more or less
awkwardly, has to change his projected figure, improvise and do something
else.

In traditional tango the man leads (marca - lleva) every single movement the
follower does. Even he leads all the embellishments directly or by allowing
time for the woman to express herself.

I know there are all sort of inventions to attempt to change this :
interleading, changing roles, the leader leads the woman to do the man's
foot work while he executes the woman's, the woman puts pressure on the
man's arm to ask for more time to do something, etc.

All this is fine, no problem.

There are all sort of changes in traditional terminology to accommodate the
feelings of the "modern woman":

Such as the man does not lead, no sir! - he invites, proposes, - and what
are you going to do? : refuse to do whatever he is leading (excuse me
inviting)? no you are going to follow and do it.

Can you refuse? of course you can and then proceed to sit at your table. Big
deal.

So in actuality terminology changes are only that, words. The essential
aspects of dance do not accept too much variation.

Can a man follow, a woman lead, two women or two men dance together? of
course they can.

Any experimentation should be welcome. Everybody should do whatever pleases
him/her.

And those that do not take part in those experimentations should be tolerant
and accept them as equal, because they might discover something.

Remember at he end everybody should have total freedom to do what seems to
be attractive to them, that is one of the essential elements of tango.

Do you disagree? you have the right to refuse to dance with anybody or in
any way you dislike.
You have the right to create your own milonga or to go to the milonga you
like.

Summary: Back leading is a bad practice and should not be encouraged .
Freedom is a good thing.
Fanaticim, intolerance are bad things.

PS. check the following page :)))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra_complex

Saludos, Sergio

Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:59:37 -0400
From: "John Gleeson" <johngleeson@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Back leading - Electra
To: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>,
<tango-l@mit.edu>

> Freedom is a good thing.
> Fanaticim, intolerance are bad things.

Well said Sergio.

John G.


----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 12:49 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] Back leading - Electra

> You know that we need two to tango.
>
> In any activity that we as a group take part in, there is one that leads and
> others that follow.
>
> Four people ride in a car, one drives and the other three ride *and do not
> interfere with his driving".
> Should one of the passengers in the car attempt to take control of the
> steering wheel the car will sway from side to side and lose its smooth ride.
>
> In dancing the leader gives signals (marca - lleva) to communicate to the
> follower what he has in mind, what movements he wishes her to execute. The
> better he leads, the smoother the dance will be.
>
> When the follower does things on her own that are not lead by the man this
> is called "Back leading".
>
> This interferes with the leader's thought process who, more or less
> awkwardly, has to change his projected figure, improvise and do something
> else.
>
> In traditional tango the man leads (marca - lleva) every single movement the
> follower does. Even he leads all the embellishments directly or by allowing
> time for the woman to express herself.
>
> I know there are all sort of inventions to attempt to change this :
> interleading, changing roles, the leader leads the woman to do the man's
> foot work while he executes the woman's, the woman puts pressure on the
> man's arm to ask for more time to do something, etc.
>
> All this is fine, no problem.
>
> There are all sort of changes in traditional terminology to accommodate the
> feelings of the "modern woman":
>
> Such as the man does not lead, no sir! - he invites, proposes, - and what
> are you going to do? : refuse to do whatever he is leading (excuse me
> inviting)? no you are going to follow and do it.
>
> Can you refuse? of course you can and then proceed to sit at your table. Big
> deal.
>
> So in actuality terminology changes are only that, words. The essential
> aspects of dance do not accept too much variation.
>
> Can a man follow, a woman lead, two women or two men dance together? of
> course they can.
>
> Any experimentation should be welcome. Everybody should do whatever pleases
> him/her.
>
> And those that do not take part in those experimentations should be tolerant
> and accept them as equal, because they might discover something.
>
> Remember at he end everybody should have total freedom to do what seems to
> be attractive to them, that is one of the essential elements of tango.
>
> Do you disagree? you have the right to refuse to dance with anybody or in
> any way you dislike.
> You have the right to create your own milonga or to go to the milonga you
> like.
>
> Summary: Back leading is a bad practice and should not be encouraged .
> Freedom is a good thing.
> Fanaticim, intolerance are bad things.
>
> PS. check the following page :)))
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra_complex
>
> Saludos, Sergio
>
>
>

Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 06:30:27 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Back leading
To: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>,
tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net

Sergio wrote:

> When the follower does things on her own that are not lead
> by the man this is called "Back leading".

I do not agree with Sergio's definition of back leading.
Back leading is when the woman leads the man from the
follower's position. My ballroom teacher sometimes back
leads me (she is the follower) when I need to feel a
particular lead for a figure I'm having difficulty. In
tango, an example would be the woman leading the man to lead
her ochos. She would rotate his shoulders.

A follower can do anything not lead as long as it doesn't
interfere with the lead, i.e. when walking backwards she
double times her steps so that she remains on the foot the
man wants.

When the man has stopped, the woman can play. The best
example is from the step over position. O (in NY) loves to
push my out stretched foot before she steps over it. Other
women step over the foot and then drag it. They are playing.

Virginia Kelly, an Argentine living in NY, has taught
"Interleading" at the NY Summer Tango Festival (last week in
July this year). The woman doesn't lead the man to do
something. She stops the man with her frame so that she can
play. As an example, the man can sweep the woman's foot, the
follower uses her frame to stop the man and then uses her
frame to sweep the man's foot.

To me, interleading and playing are fine. Back leading, in
the technical definition I gave, is to be avoided.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Heat and humidity slowly descending

Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 20:14:28 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Back leading - Electra
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

> There are all sort of changes in traditional terminology to accommodate

the

> feelings of the "modern woman":
> Such as the man does not lead, no sir! - he invites, proposes, - and what
> are you going to do? : refuse to do whatever he is leading (excuse me
> inviting)? no you are going to follow and do it.
> Can you refuse? of course you can and then proceed to sit at your table.

Big

> deal.
>

(...)

> Any experimentation should be welcome. Everybody should do whatever

pleases

> him/her.
> And those that do not take part in those experimentations should be

tolerant

> and accept them as equal, because they might discover something.

Freedom is a good thing.
Fanaticim, intolerance are bad things.

> PS. check the following page :)))
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra_complex
>

Alright, alright, Sergio, I will keep quiet about the incongruencies but
could you at least leave the kitchen psychology out of here? Next thing we
are going to have a discussion following regarding the hidden penis envy of
women who like to occasionally lead, and that will be the end of my
patience...

And as for this:...

"Would all the people here in the USA, especially the
self appointed Argentine Tango teachers, please stop
telling the Argentines how to dance Argentine tango.
They know how to dance the dance. We do not. We need
to learn, not teach. We are wrong. The Argentines are
right. Period.

Derik"

...Derik 's degree of bigotry is at least amusing.


Best regards
Astrid, trying to save Tango-L from turning into Tango-LOL... ; )