1423  BANDONEON HISTORY AND SPECULATIONS

Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 22:26:12 -0300
From: Ruben Carlos Terbalca <rubenmilonga@SINECTIS.COM.AR>
Subject: BANDONEON HISTORY AND SPECULATIONS

> > Dirk,
> > All your comments are trying to change some face of the Tango reality
> (this is quite common between beginners, like to look for exceptions ,and

tray

> to say "this is the true"). You, and nobody can prove the 142 Tango

Bandoneon

> > was used in Germany. Because NEVER was used, and nobody can find
> > .-----Again: check the music museums and collectors---
> > When you can prove with a positive element, I can agree, without any
> > problem.. And because I am an historian, I can be very grateful to you.-
> > Normally, when the new T people need to feel important , try to change
> > something.....and describe the old tango people: "obtuse", and
> "ludicrous", non creative and others....."educated" expretions...
> > I make a field researches (in Germany), just locking for facts,not for
> > "clever" speculations; because hypothesis are free..... but need proves.
> to became thesis, the history need some facts to be founded.-
> > You can see your mistakes below....
> >

> >
> > > Ruben
> > > address itself to this issue. Perhaps you know this and have withheld
> > > it. My best guess is that it had to have occurred sometime between

1858

> > > and 1912.
> >
> > ----This is not my point-- : don`t change nothing in :"142 NEVER ( 142

Tango Bandoneon) was used in

> > Germany" for the normal players in normal conditions (I don`t talke

about exceptions)--------

They prove to me, at least, that the 142 tone

> > > (Rheinische Lage) model was a direct design descentant of the 130 tone
> > > model of 1858, which itself came from a 100 tone model (1854), with
> > > three preceding extensions from an initial layout of approx. 1844
> >
> > ---you need to open your mind: the car factories make special cars for
> > competitions (never used in the streets ), and after they use the
> > competition technology for developing the street cars.--Some people can
> > said, like you: "this competition models prove this cars was used in

the

> > streets" because was made from the same factory , and the
> develop.......----
> > But ....just is not true----
> > >

> > > separate market. But if it was used by Germans (or simply
> > > non-Argentines), then to jump from 130 to 152 would seem unlikely and
> > > would refute your assertion.

-----other mistake, because the same factory had both , was not a jump they
just produce one the 142 T.B. for export....is easy...after they develop the
new one....is easy to understand...

> > ---Remember the competition cars from the same factories. I never said
> > nothing about a jump...---
> > >
> > > To this you only responded with: '----144 have a different keys
> > > distribution---'.
> > >
> > > This adds absolutely nothing new to the discussion considering that

from

> > > my first comments, I have asserted that "It is only after 1924 with
> > > creation of the 144 voice Einheitsbandoneon
> > > <https://laue.ethz.ch/cm/pic/pdf/Ein_144.pdf> that your statement may

be

> > > applicable."
> >
> > -----You are wrong, because in your first answer you write to me about
> :you cannot believe the germans was not confortable with the 142--- .-And

yes:

> > somebody to use to play in other keys distribution could be very
> uncomfortable when need to play an instrument without the same

distribution.
I just answer Your wrong comment about comfort----

> >
> > >
> > > Once again, this occurred only AFTER 1924 yet you make it seem as

though

> > > this affected the prior designs in the name of "German standards".
> > > Perhaps it is you that has trouble understanding or following the
> > > chronology.
> >
> > ------I never mention dates, just the Tango Bandoneon 142------
> > >
> > > Additionally, I fail to understand how forwarding Gulden's email

serves

> > > to further your cause. He states "It is still
> > > not clear to me though, what the reason for producing a special

version

> > > of an already existing instrument to export it to overseas." This

quote

> > > only serves to reinforce my 'doubts' as to your obtuse position.
> >
> > ------To don`t know "wat's the reason" in sciences is not a good

satrting

> > for foundament nothing.And don`t change the facts, you can not find 142
> > (Tango B.) in Germany-----
> > ----You cannot prove possitive nothing about the Tango B. 142 in
> > Germany------ If you want to be an historian, you must respect the

facts, before your

> > wishes----
> >
> > >
> > > As I have mentioned previously, effective communication is hindered by
> > > imprecise terminology not by the use of any one specific language. For
> > > example, are you aware there is a 142 model that is unisonoric? that
> > > there is additionally references to a 156 tone model?
> > --
> >
> > --------Yes, all the begginers students musicians (Tango Band. 142 )

know

> > that.,and all the bandoneon books talk about.....here in Argentina, and

in

> > Germany we have some information too...........we are not so ignorants

,like obtuses and ludicrous......thanks----------

> > >
> > > You state there are no 142 models are to be found in Germany: I direct
> > > you to the Carsfeld site
> > >
> > >
> >
>

https://www.bandonion-carlsfeld.de/english/english/instruments/choosetheinstr

> > um.html
> >
> > -------This is not a true, this instrument is a new one , made just NOW,
> for a new company ----

---- For what reasons you tray the confuse the present with the past?, when
Europe is full tango fashion......and could be a good bussiness to sell a
NEW Bandoneon---- (I said never WAS used)----

> > ---And there is proves was not used (142 T. B.), because was not
> > included/accepted in the Bandoneon German institutions and associations

by papers---

> >Ruben
> > >
> > > N.: I have deleted part of the material as it exceeded the limit of

the

> > > list.
> >
> > ----At the end, you have an interesting hipotesis...YOU must prove. You
> can not change the bandoneon facts,just because you dont have the answers

Doubts are doubts, and facts are facts.-

> > Ruben
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 07:02:48 -0400
From: Dirk J Bakker <dbakker@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: BANDONEON HISTORY AND SPECULATIONS

Senor Terbalca,

Le sugiero que use exclusivamente el Espanol. Pues es mas que obvio que
tiene dificultad entender o expresarse en el Ingles.

Me parece que usted en una comunicacion anterior ya accedio de que su
uso de la palabra 'NEVER' estaba inapropriada.

Usted ha escrito: "----NEVER is inapropiated [sic]...and BANDONEON
too......"

Eso mas que todo queria que usted posiblemente lo aceptara. El hecho de
que si existen excepciones no disculpa ese mal uso.

Como ejemplos de su mal entendimiento, si se permite leer lo que yo
escribi, yo dije:

I. "This quote only serves to reinforce my 'doubts' as to your obtuse
position." La referencia es a su punto de vista (position), no esta
dirigido ni a usted, ni a ninguna persona tanguera de alguna edad.
Probablemente usted se conoce mas que yo. Solamente me dirijo a sus
argumentos.

II. En relacion al uso de la palabra 'ludicrous' lo que escribi fue:
"All these models were manufactured in Germany so to claim that a German
NEVER played them or that because nobody can find a 142 model in Germany
proves non-use are ludicrous. There is a great difference between an
absolute ('never') and a preponderance (i.e. that the 142 bisonoric
model was intended for the South American market)." La referencia es a
su afirmacion (claim) no a ninguna persona como pretende decir usted.

III. No mas el hecho que usted respondio a Gulden Ozen con "The
bandoneons used in Germany in all kinds of music NEVER WAS THE
ARGENTINEAN (South American ) model" siendo que lo que ella se habia
dirigido fue a los bandoneones en general en Alemania diciendo "...
there was a time when bandoneon was used in performing religious music
in Germany before it was used for tangos in Buenos Aires." me da la
impresisn que usted no sigue bien el hilo, por lo menos, de esa
discusisn. Normalmente en logica esto se llama un non sequitur. El tema
fui general y derivativo, pues como yo trate de hacerle entender a
usted, hubo mas que bastante tiempo entre la introducisn del modelo
precursor del 142 bisonorico y el mismo para que lo que ella dijo fuese
logico y razonable.

Como dije yo este periodo de tiempo fue despues de 1858 (cuando el de
130 tonos se hizo) y 1924 (cuando se establecio el 'standard Aleman de
144'). Si usted cree o sabe que el modelo 142 bisonorico fue el unico
introducido a Sud America porque es que todos los sites no dicen lo
mismo? Mejor dicho, el de 130 mucho mas probablemente fue el primero.
Como dije yo esto no pudo haber ocurrido instantaneamente.

IV. Usted dice que estoy errado: "You are wrong, because in your first
answer you write to me about :you cannot believe the germans was not
confortable with the 142". Se ve que usted trato de hacer esta de (su
mala) memoria. Lo que yo verdaderamente escribi fue en el contexto de
los 130: "I seriously doubt that any German player would not have been
perfectly comfortable and able to, or for that matter did not actually,
play on the 142 key models." Esta es una conclucion logica y simplemente
basada en la gran semejanza del teclado del 130 al del 142, ambos de la
distribucion "Rheinische Lage". Solamente DESPUES del cambio a los 144
"Einheitsbandoneon" en 1924 que los Alemanes han de tener dificultad en
el uso del 142. Pero no cree o se le ocurre a usted que muchos han
seguido usando los de 130 "Rheinische Lage" hasta hoy dia? Si es
posible, porque han de tener alguna dificultad con el similar de 142?

V. Usted se atreve de acusarme de pretender ser 'clever'. No considera
la contrabercion de my uso de la palabra 'doubts' acerca de lo que USTED
presume defender mucho mas culpable de eso mismo? O es que tambien no lo
entendio usted en el Ingles?

Yo considero dignos y capazes quienes representan honestamente el punto
de vista de cualquier detractor. Claro esta que hay quienes simplemente
no entienden.

VI. 'Shortening perspectives' cuando fue que yo dije "foreshortening
perspective" en el contexto de una inocente analogia. Es que esto anadio
algo de sustancia a su argumento? O fue que mas servio a sentirse atacado?

Que usted no se dirige con certeza por cuarta vez a los puntos que yo
presente, me da la imprecisn de que verdaderamente usted no sabe:
1) para quienes (o que mercado) se hicieron los modelos de 152 o 156
tonos? Solamente para los Argentinos? (su anologia a la manufacturia de
carros no resuelve esto por nada!); y tampoco y mas especificamente,
2) cuando fue que se empezo a vender el 142 bisonorico al mercado
Sud-Americano;
3) y hasta la relacion de los teclados "Rheinische Lage" siendo que una
diferencia de 6 botones no es gran cosa para prevenir a ninguno su uso
hasta despues de 1924.

Si usted sabe o sabia que se venden los 142 y 110 (para estudiantes)
"Rheinische Lage" hasta hoy dia en Alemania (sean o no nuevos), porque
no califica lo que dice apropriadamente? Es que cree usted que el
lenguaje del historiador permite ese mal uso tambien? O sea esta su idea
de lo cientifico? Mejor dicho, si usted fuese a considerar
cuidadosamente lo que ha dicho, mucho de esto no ha de ser necesario.

Pero si siendo que prefiere justificar su punto de vista con llamarme de
'beginner' o 'clever', pues que voy hacer. Lo que mas me informa acerca
de sus 'capacidades' es lo que dice usted: "You can not change the
bandoneon facts, just because you dont have the answers." Como maestro
debe ser bien mediocre.

Sera necesario preferiblemente acudir a algien que este sinceramente
interesado en resolver estar preguntas usando lenguaje mas preciso, sin
sentirse ofendido y que no solamente este interesado en verse con
atribuciones expertoides.

El hecho es que los datos son los mismos pero las interpretaciones de
ellos pueden ser bastante diferentes. Si no le gusta que otras personas
pueden acudir a su propia logica entonces presente algo mejor y si
quiere que no se le llame la atencion de lo que dice, por lo menos,
empieze a hablar mejor.

D. Bakker