1424 Tango is changing!
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 12:55:02 -0700
From: Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Tango is changing!
It's often said on this list that Argentine tango is evolving, and that one
thing or another is responsible for the change. These are easy things to say,
because we all have a general feeling that everything in life evolves and
changes, and that everything is almost always influenced by something else.
Actually supporting specific claims like these, however, is not so easy. I
think a lot of people (including me) tend to see tango evolving toward the
style they personally like, or being influenced by things or styles that appeal
to them. Here are some quotes from a message posted yesterday:
1. Argentine Tango, for all those who don't want to admit it, has seen more
changes influence by the ballroom world in the past 10 years than anything.
The old ways of dancing and teaching tango only exist in the few leftover
purists. But if you attend a class by the masters Osvaldo and Lorena, Fabian
and Carolina, Fernanda and Guillermo, Hugo and Miriam, Diego and Carolina (just
to name a few) and you have any experience in ballroom or classical dance
instruction you will find the influence many new patterns have been
created watch a DanceSport competition from 5-10 years ago and then watch one
from this year.
2. Argentine Tango has evolved tremendously, mostly because of its new
popularity throughout the rest of the world.
3. Everything has to evolve to continue existing.
Amazing news! Can this really be true- that ballroom tango from outside
Argentina has tremendously changed Argentine tango over the last 10 years? And
that only a few diehard purists still dance in old and obsolete ways? I am
left with the vision of Ricardo Vidort and Miguel Angel Balbi desperately
tuning their satellite dishes to Dancesport competitions to obtain the latest
step patterns so they can keep up with the other milongueros at Los Consagrados
on Wednesday afternoon. I picture the locals at Gricel and Sunderland
anxiously awaiting the next planeload of tourists from Miami, so they can be
enlightened by new techniques from the workshops of Diego and Carolina. Well,
if as this writer says, everything has to evolve to continue existing, the next
time I'm windsurfing the Oregon coast and I get that "Holy sh** there's a big
shark down there!!" feeling, I can be comforted by the fact that sharks
actually ceased to exist several million years ago because they didn't evolve.
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 13:51:34 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango is changing!
On Sun, 15 Jun 2003, Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET> wrote:
> if as this writer says, everything has to evolve to continue existing,
> the next time I'm windsurfing the Oregon coast and I get that "Holy
> sh** there's a big shark down there!!" feeling, I can be comforted by
> the fact that sharks actually ceased to exist several million years
> ago because they didn't evolve.
Evolution as a scientific theory is difficult to reduce to a sentence, and
it is easy to fall into over simplified misstatements. Sharks, of course,
did evolve, I believe into bony fish, but those descendents didn't drive
them from the their niches, and they continued to be quite successful.
It's uncertain now what human pressure will do their populations.
Key concepts in the theory of evolution is populations and population
pressure, and what happens when organisms move into new environments. As
Lindy Hop continues even though it also inspired several "descendents"
such as swing, and west coast swing, so the Argentine tango continues
thought it to has descendents in Finland, England, and the US. On the
other hand, even if the genetic material is preserved, or the dance music,
and steps, etc, still the environment changes and those changes tend to
put pressure to adapt.
Sharon Gates in an unrelated post suggested that close embrace was a
"marketing gimmick". All the information I've read suggests that it
developed as a response to an environmental change when economic changes
resulted in a change from live bands playing in large ballrooms to
recorded music played in clubs with smaller dance floors.
Change and survival are ongoing.
peace,
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2003 23:05:12 -0400
From: Dirk J Bakker <dbakker@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango is changing!
Jonathan Thornton wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Jun 2003, Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET> wrote:
>
>
>
>>if as this writer says, everything has to evolve to continue existing,
>>the next time I'm windsurfing the Oregon coast and I get that "Holy
>>sh** there's a big shark down there!!" feeling, I can be comforted by
>>the fact that sharks actually ceased to exist several million years
>>ago because they didn't evolve.
>>
>>
>
>Evolution as a scientific theory is difficult to reduce to a sentence, and
>it is easy to fall into over simplified misstatements.
>
How right you are as to the second part. Evolution is the life process
of adaptation to a changing environment. IOW, life forms evolve not so
much because they can, but because they have to.
>Sharks, of course, did evolve, I believe into bony fish, but those descendents didn't drive them from the their niches, and they continued to be quite successful.
>
Sharks (cartiliginous fishes, as all life) DID evolve, but FROM simpler
life forms. However, as a type they are indeed a 'living fossil' as Rick
suggests. Bony fishes DID NOT come from sharks, though both had a common
ancestry (at some point). Simply because two life forms have a similar
shape and adaptation does not necessarily mean one is a descendant from
the other.
Examples of this abound. Just as there was a marsupial wolf functionally
similar to plascental wolves. But they were no more related to one
another than by virtue of both being mammals.
The derivitive processes of creative or similar other human behaviours
(such as dance) proceed at a pace and on a level hardly comparable to
the evolution of life forms. The time scales and mechanisms are so
different as to make comparison between the two no more than merely a
superficial analogy. For example, behaviour is more apt to allow for
something like 'independent invention' than will the evolution of life
forms in response to environmental pressures. Just a few generations'
change can allow behaviour or learning to be lost, whereas a living
system is less likely to lose a feature once it is incorporated into its
physical form. Whales may no longer have legs but they certainly have
the vestigial bone structure that suggests their ancestry and descent
from land animals. Behaviour allows for 'whim' and 'fads', but life, to
be survivable, is inherently conservative.
>It's uncertain now what human pressure will do their populations.
>
>Key concepts in the theory of evolution is populations and population
>pressure, and what happens when organisms move into new environments. As
>Lindy Hop continues even though it also inspired several "descendents"
>such as swing, and west coast swing, so the Argentine tango continues
>thought it to has descendents in Finland, England, and the US. On the
>other hand, even if the genetic material is preserved, or the dance music,
>and steps, etc, still the environment changes and those changes tend to
>put pressure to adapt.
>
>Sharon Gates in an unrelated post suggested that close embrace was a
>"marketing gimmick". All the information I've read suggests that it
>developed as a response to an environmental change when economic changes
>resulted in a change from live bands playing in large ballrooms to
>recorded music played in clubs with smaller dance floors.
>
>Change and survival are ongoing.
>
>peace,
>Jonathan Thornton
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 00:23:23 -0400
From: Nicole Dowell <bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango is changing!
Rick McGarry says:
(Can this really be true- that ballroom tango from outside Argentina has tremendously changed Argentine tango over the last 10 years? And that only a few diehard purists still dance in old and obsolete ways? I am left with the vision of Ricardo Vidort and Miguel Angel Balbi desperately tuning their satellite dishes to Dancesport competitions to obtain the latest step patterns so they can keep up with the other milongueros at Los Consagrados on Wednesday afternoon.)
I never said that Argentine Tango is taking new forms by adding ballroom step patterns. Actually, it's quite the opposite. DanceSport competitors are using more and more patterns from Argentine Tango every year. However, the WAY THAT ARGENTINE TANGO is taught today has changed by the influence of Ballroom approaches to teaching. Technique training is much more desired today than years ago. I have spoken to many dancers born, raised, and trained in Argentina who have said that many of the old teachers taught mostly by demostrating the steps and you repeated them. But more and more teachers are concentrating on the technical side of the footwork, balance, structure, and interpretation. This has come from the influence of more developed forms of dance and their methods of teaching, including classical dance and ballroom. Classical dance and Ballroom studios are much more developed in their teaching methods than any tango, salsa, hustle, or swing studios because they have
over 100 years (ballroom 60-70 years) of developing the art and sport of dance and teaching methods. I know specifically that in both salsa and mambo after they became popular in the 50's (for Mambo) and 80's (for Salsa) many of the teachers went to the ballroom studios to develop new turns, new patterns, new steps, new techniques. Same goes for other dance styles. The influence in the WAY dance has been taught in more developed forms of dancing has influenced the way Argentine Tango is being taught today.
Those who dance the old styles, are great and that's fine for if that's what they prefer to dance. But those who deny the validity of new styles in dance and music or criticize that they aren't as good as the old styles or it's not "real tango" or "real salsa" or "real cha cha", etc. are not realistic. It's all REAL. Didn't rock 'n' roll change after Elvis? It still exists but it doesn't sound the same as what it did in the 50's. Jazz still exists but it doesn't always sound like it did in the 20's, 30's, 40's. Orchestral music is still is written today but doesn't always sound like Bach. Styles change with generations but the core of the music still stays the same. Rock kept developing after the 50's, so why shouldn't tango have developed since the 50's?
Nicole
Miami
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 00:47:49 -0700
From: Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Tango is changing!
Nicole, I didn't mean to misquote you or quote out of context. When you say
ballroom tango has changed the way Argentine tango is being taught, that may be
true. I don't really know. When you said, The old ways of dancing tango and
teaching tango only exist in the few leftover purists I thought you were also
saying that ballroom tango has changed the way everyone dances Argentine tango.
I think we both agree that isn't true.
As for the statements by Sharon Gates about close-embrace tango that have
somehow found their way into this thread, here is what Ruben Terbalca says
about it (I hope I'm quoting accurately):
"A new style of dancing, with less upper body movement, developed after the
turn of the century. Done in a straight but aggressive posture, combining
walking steps with dramatic creative figures to show off the skill of the
dancers, it was named tango orillero, for the marginal inhabitants of the
poorer outlying neighborhoods (orillas) where it blossomed."
"In 1917 the first tango lyrics in this new genre were recorded by an
up-and-coming young singer, Carlos Gardel. Mi Noche Triste (My Sad Night) was
an overnight sensation, the precursor of the mournful tango song. In the center
of the city, in the more liberal 'twenties, both men and women went, looking
for love, to crowded tango clubs, cafes, and confiterias, where they again
danced very close, the woman's head over her partner's right shoulder, so he
could whisper erotic temptations in her ear, and, on a practical level, she
could help navigate by signaling impending collisions. This frame was called
apilado (piled up), referring to the position of a jockey in a dead heat
leaning with all his weight on his horse's neck. Under these conditions dance
steps are necessarily shorter, turns and ochos curtailed, and the rhythm
rigidly marked."
