5560 Breaking the 'paso basico.'
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:44:50 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Mash,
To break a habit is not difficult - just stop doing it and stop whining. Problem solved. There's nothing
wrong with the 8-step basic. But if you've been doing it over and over until it became a habit, that's
obviously wrong - but that's not the fault of the figure. The same would be true of any figure that
becomes a habit. Do the exercise that I recommended in a previous thread and dance without going
to the cross and no more resolutions. Your final question - does anyone knows any brain washing
techniques ... Good god man, haven't you learned your lesson yet?
Keith, HK
On Tue Feb 12 19:19 , ""Mash" sent:
>I am getting frustrated with myself at the moment as I have discovered my first nasty Tango habit.
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:07:00 +0000
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
On Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 11:44:50AM -0500, Keith wrote:
> Your final question - does anyone knows any brain washing
> techniques ... Good god man, haven't you learned your lesson yet?
>
> Keith, HK
That was a literary device Keith and I put it in just to ruffle your moustache.
'Mash
London,UK
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:07:54 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
It depends on the situation.
On stage, no problem.
For an advanced dancer, no problem.
On a social dance floor, the 8CB w/DBS is COMPLETELY non functional.
When you are social dancing, you have to break the pattern every two
steps, so why bother to learn a useless pattern.
For a beginner, it is harmful:
- It creates rote-patterns,
- It takes away their prior ability to "just walk around the room"
- It doesn't feel like dancing
- It is impossible for them to dance it with grace and musicality.
It is completely possible to take a brand new dancer, and in one-hour
teach them to walk musically around the room. The 8CB w/DBS forces
them into months of lessons before they achieve the walk around the
room, and many months or years before they come back to the music.
OH WAIT! Maybe it is a business strategy.
It's like teaching patterns in Ballroom Dance: Bronze, Silver, Gold.
Restrain their learning so they keep buying expensive lessons. Instill
bad habits so they have to take lots of private lessons.
On Feb 12, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Keith wrote:
> Mash,
>
> To break a habit is not difficult - just stop doing it and stop
> whining. Problem solved. There's nothing wrong with the 8-step
> basic. But if you've been doing it over and over until it became a
> habit, that's ....
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 12:08:24 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
On Tue Feb 12 20:44 , "Chris, UK" sent:
>The first thing to do is to switch away from the so-called teacher that
>brainwashed you into it.
Chris,
Maybe you've forgotten, but in his recent post dated 22 January 2008 - 'How to Learn' Mash wrote:
Quote:
I believe we learn first and foremost from patterns whether we like it or not. The little I know of neuroscience
confirms this. We learn by repetition and repetition meaning the same sequence over and over until it is etched
into our memory and muscles.
End Quote.
Sounds to me like Mash brainwashed himself. Not everything is the teacher's fault. Any comment?
Keith, HK
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:52:00 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: <keith@tangohk.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
I agree we all learn by patterns. However, not all patterns are created equal. The big difference IMO between tango teaching and ballroom is in the number of steps in a pattern. We all teach rock step patterns, which are 2 or 3 steps depending on how you count, likewise ochos are a pattern of 1 or 2 or 3 steps each, even an ocho cortado is about 4 steps. OTOH my observation is that ballroom dances often teach 10 - 20 step patterns. I was watching a salsa class the other day that did the same thing. I think the 8CB is simply too large. As has been pointed out, once you spend enough time to master a pattern that large, it's hard to shift the gears of your muscle memory to un-learn using it as a whole and use segments of it instead.
J
TangoMoments.com
P.S. Portland's ValenTango festival starting Wed night this week is shaping up to be the biggest ever, judging by pre-registrations, meaning it's probably the largest tango festival in the US! We expect 650 or more total people attending.
Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging.?You IM, we give.
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Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 17:58 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Keith wrote:
> Sounds to me like Mash brainwashed himself. Not everything is the
> teacher's fault. Any comment?
Yes: I can see why'd you'd think that, given your teaching syllabus:
https://web.archive.org/web/20061004034120/https://tangohk.com/
Tango Figures
Some of the Tango figures that you can learn at the Academy are listed
below. I would recommend that you download these lists and mark off each
figure as you learn it. To help you remember you may also wish to include
your own brief description of the figure.
TANGO FIGURES FOR BEGINNERS
1. Tango Basic
2. Front Ocho [8]
(i) Simple
(ii) With turn to left
3. Back Ocho
4. Parada [Stop] with Sandwich
5. Gancho [Hook], from Sandwich
6. Media Luna [Half Moon]
...
I'm glad to see (https://tangohk.com/) it has has since improved.
--
Chris
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:20:00 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
Oooooh, a compliment from Chris. Just fell off my chair.
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 1:58 , "Chris, UK" sent:
>
>I'm glad to see (https://tangohk.com/\) it has has since improved.
>
>--
>Chris
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:31:10 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
Before I taught close-embrace, I taught tango using the 8CB
and produced successful leaders. So I?d say it?s the bad
or inexperienced teachers that give the 8CB a bad name.
But I also have to agree with Keith that one basically has
to make a decision to overcome a habit and practice it over
and over and over again. But what is nice about habits is
that if you form them into longer dance phrases, it makes
it easier for a woman to be relaxed and to dance. If a
woman is constantly hit with surprises, then it becomes
work for her.
My solution to avoid going to resolucion as a habit was to
not invite my follower into the cross. If you think about
it, there?s really no other reason to go to resolucion in
and of itself. However, I like using the cross because it
gives the follower a natural breathing point, otherwise,
you?re liable to be running her all over the place.
So I suggest learning to use the cross as the ending of a
step sequence in lieu of resolucion. When you bring her to
the cross, relax down into the floor, which puts a ?period?
onto your phrasing. I do this by exhaling and settling
down into my right hip (as if waiting at a bus stop). This
also gives me a powerful step out of the cross. Matching
it to the phrasing of the music will also help you with
this. For example, if you start your side step (step #2)
on beat 5, you can get to the cross on beat 8. For beats
1-4, just walk forward beginning with your left foot. Do
this over and over. Once this makes sense, then start
working on getting rid of that side step. One thing at a
time. The more you practice getting into another step
right after the cross, the easier this becomes.
And here?s a fun solution. Take your follower to the
cross, but then take her out of it before she shifts her
weight onto her left foot, sorta? like a fake crossing.
You lead the cross the same way but be more sensitive to
when she?s about the change weight completely. Then, with
a light lift up and pivot you can uncross her and send her
for a back step. Since resolucion will not feel like a
natural way to end this, you?ll be forced to continue
dancing. This might help you disassociate the cross from
resolucion.
So how can the 8CB be taught successfully? I focused on
using steps 3-8 and used the other steps as accessories.
Since as a follower I was sick of the side step as an entry
to just about every sequence under the sun, I taught the
men to step outside partner with their right foot without
using a side step. Also, when teaching steps 1-2 and
resolution, I made them turn the thing so that they weren?t
against the line of dance. I also added rock steps. But I
switched teaching methods completely when I began teaching
close-embrace.
Hope this helps.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 14:32:10 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Actually, I thought the thread on WALKING was MUCH more interesting. Why are
we back to bashing the D8CB? Why can't we be more constructive instead of just
bashing something? I guess because it's easier to criticise?
This comment goes for Chris as well, in spades.
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 1:07 , Tom Stermitz sent:
>
>On a social dance floor, the 8CB w/DBS is COMPLETELY non functional.
>When you are social dancing, you have to break the pattern every two
>steps, so why bother to learn a useless pattern.
>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:58:37 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
> So how can the 8CB be taught successfully? I focused on
> using steps 3-8 and used the other steps as accessories.
Oops! I meant focusing on steps 3-5 and using steps 1-2
and 6-8 as accessories.
Trini
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh?s most popular social dance!
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:06:49 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
Sorry Chris, but https://www.tangohk.com/tango_figures.htm
actually reads:
Some of the Tango figures that you can learn at the Academy are listed
below. I would recommend that you download these lists and mark off each
figure as you learn it. To help you remember you may also wish to include
your own brief description of the figure.
TANGO FIGURES FOR BEGINNER LEVEL
1. Walking in-line, in the tango embrace.
2. Simple navigation around the floor [repeated with each subsequent figure].
3. Walking in-line, with stops and weight changes [steps] in place.
4. Walking in-line, with rock-steps.
5. Side-step [left for men], walk outside partner [right side] and back in-line.
6. Side-step [left for men], walk outside partner to ladies cross [Cruzada].
7.* Ditto, ending with the Resolution.
8. Front Ocho from the Cruzada.
9. Back Ocho from man's left foot side-step.
10. Simple Giro [turn] to right from Cruzada.
11. Simple Giro to left from walk outside partner [right side].
12. Use of the 'pivot' to change easily between Front Ochos and Back Ochos.
Chris, try to stay up to date - but that's not your agenda, is it?
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 1:58 , "Chris, UK" sent:
> Some of the Tango figures that you can learn at the Academy are listed
> below. I would recommend that you download these lists and mark off each
> figure as you learn it. To help you remember you may also wish to include
> your own brief description of the figure.
>
> TANGO FIGURES FOR BEGINNERS
>
> 1. Tango Basic
> 2. Front Ocho [8]
> (i) Simple
> (ii) With turn to left
> 3. Back Ocho
> 4. Parada [Stop] with Sandwich
> 5. Gancho [Hook], from Sandwich
> 6. Media Luna [Half Moon]
> ...
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:58:20 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
Trini,
I do something similar. I teach the 8CB as 3 separate figures.
Figure 1 - Steps 1,2 is the Salida;
Figure 2 - Steps 3-5 is walking to the cross; and
Figure 3 - Steps 6-8 is the Resolution.
Of course, step 1 - the back step is usually omitted. A variety of steps and figures can be taught after
Figures 1, 2 and 3, without completing the 8CB.
For example, I can add in a Back Ocho between Figures 1 and 2 or a Front Ocho between Figures 2 and 3.
I can also add in a Giro to left after Figure 1 and a Giro to right after Figure 2. There are many other things to do
within the 8CB.
The 8CB is a very useful teaching tool when used as framework to build on other basic figures in a simple way.
I rarely use it as a complete figure on it's own and the students understand this.
You're correct when you say the 8CB is only bad when used by bad teachers.
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 3:58 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>
>--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>> So how can the 8CB be taught successfully? I focused on
>> using steps 3-8 and used the other steps as accessories.
>
>Oops! I meant focusing on steps 3-5 and using steps 1-2
>and 6-8 as accessories.
>
>Trini
>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:07:38 -0500
From: Jake Spatz <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: tango-L@mit.edu
List,
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
>> So how can the 8CB be taught successfully?
Is your objective to successfully teach improv tango, or to successfully
teach the 8CB? Or to teach dancers to place the 8CB (or parts of it)
within another context? Answering that should probably point you
straight. (Although I should add... I myself don't often use either the
cruzada or the so-called "resolution" for anything like what you
describe in your post... most of the time it's quite the opposite,
actually.)
As for the question (put by 'Mash) of how to UN-learn the 8CB as a
default pattern... which is how this thread started... I might suggest
_leading it entirely on purpose_ first, so that at least it's deliberate
rather than "automatic." From that point, it'll be easier to NOT do it,
because you'll have started using the one tool-- namely, intention--
that you need for everything. No departure from the 8CB will be freely
available to you, except by accident, unless the 8CB itself is first
made deliberate, and therefore also _freely_ available rather than forced.
Many people use the same method of self-correction to overcome
"automatic" (i.e., habitual) typos: first they make the typo on purpose,
to bring it within their conscious control. This gives them the ability
to exercise their (conscious) will in favor of other ends, and reduces
the typo from an automatic habit to merely one action among several
alternatives. In other words: Make the mistake on purpose, in order to
establish "on purpose" as the overriding factor. Performing the action
consciously rather than unconsciously can liberate you from it.
How the 8CB became automatic, or was learned at all, is IMO largely
irrelevant. Plenty of other things become automatic too, for any number
of reasons-- they're just not so vilified.
Jake
DC
p.s. This isn't straight out of Freud, but it might as well be. In any
case, the statement "when I am nervous my mind blanks itself of any
variation of steps" certainly indicates something quite /like/ a mild
neurosis. ;-) ... as does the confessed frustration in coping with it.
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:49:59 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
I'm not being disrespectful, but I really, really have trouble understanding the
Americans on this List. I assume you'll freely admit that no American can dance
anywhere near the level of the Argentines.And yet you still insist on teaching
Tango your way and not the Argentine way. Why is that? Do you really think
you know better? If you do, it's OK, just say so.
Tom, do you think you know more about Tango than Oscar Casas - he's just
an example - I can find many more on YouTube.
Here is a link of Oscar Casas teaching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIKnh_1KR0A
What is he teaching - the Tango 8CB. And at almost any class in BsAs, you
will be taught the same figure in beginner classes.
Tom, do you want to tell Oscar Casas what you wrote below? Do you think he
cannot dance Tango with grace and musicality? Tom, do you think you're better
than Oscar Casas? Please answer my question so that I can try to understand
you. And why do the teach your sidewalk walk when I've never seen that taught
in BsAs. The Argentines walk with grace, beauty, musicality and precision. Most
American's don't. If you think they do - Tom, please provide some YouTube links.
I'm sorry if you think I'm being anti-American, as I've been accused before on
this List. I'm not - but you're trying to change Tango for the worse and I just
don't like what you're doing. Why can't you just do things the Argentine way?
I guess that's my question.
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 1:07 , Tom Stermitz sent:
>On a social dance floor, the 8CB w/DBS is COMPLETELY non functional.
>When you are social dancing, you have to break the pattern every two
>steps, so why bother to learn a useless pattern.
>
>For a beginner, it is harmful:
> - It creates rote-patterns,
> - It takes away their prior ability to "just walk around the room"
> - It doesn't feel like dancing
> - It is impossible for them to dance it with grace and musicality.
>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:58:55 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Who is Oscar Casas?
At 07:49 AM 2/13/2008, Keith wrote:
>I'm not being disrespectful, but I really, really have trouble
>understanding the
>Americans on this List. I assume you'll freely admit that no
>American can dance
>anywhere near the level of the Argentines.And yet you still insist
>on teaching
>Tango your way and not the Argentine way. Why is that? Do you really think
>you know better? If you do, it's OK, just say so.
>
>Tom, do you think you know more about Tango than Oscar Casas - he's just
>an example - I can find many more on YouTube.
>
>Here is a link of Oscar Casas teaching:
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIKnh_1KR0A
>
>What is he teaching - the Tango 8CB. And at almost any class in BsAs, you
>will be taught the same figure in beginner classes.
>
>Tom, do you want to tell Oscar Casas what you wrote below? Do you think he
>cannot dance Tango with grace and musicality? Tom, do you think you're better
>than Oscar Casas? Please answer my question so that I can try to understand
>you. And why do the teach your sidewalk walk when I've never seen that taught
>in BsAs. The Argentines walk with grace, beauty, musicality and
>precision. Most
>American's don't. If you think they do - Tom, please provide some
>YouTube links.
>
>I'm sorry if you think I'm being anti-American, as I've been accused
>before on
>this List. I'm not - but you're trying to change Tango for the worse
>and I just
>don't like what you're doing. Why can't you just do things the Argentine way?
>I guess that's my question.
>
>Keith, HK
>
>
> On Wed Feb 13 1:07 , Tom Stermitz sent:
>
> >On a social dance floor, the 8CB w/DBS is COMPLETELY non functional.
> >When you are social dancing, you have to break the pattern every two
> >steps, so why bother to learn a useless pattern.
> >
> >For a beginner, it is harmful:
> > - It creates rote-patterns,
> > - It takes away their prior ability to "just walk around the room"
> > - It doesn't feel like dancing
> > - It is impossible for them to dance it with grace and musicality.
> >
>
>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:17:33 -0800 (PST)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: keith@tangohk.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
In the video link you cite, I see Oscar Casas stepping
backward into the line of dance - into the woman's
ankle behind him in a real social dance setting.
Please explain why you think this is a good thing for
beginners to know.
And do you really believe than any Argentine is a
better dancer than any other nationality? And do you
believe than any Argentine is a better tango teacher
than any non-Argentine tango teacher? If so, why are
you teaching?
Respectfully,
Nancy
--- Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
Tom, do you think you know more about Tango than
> Oscar Casas - he's just
> an example - I can find many more on YouTube.
>
> Here is a link of Oscar Casas teaching:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIKnh_1KR0A
> I'm sorry if you think I'm being anti-American, as
> I've been accused before on
> this List. I'm not - but you're trying to change
> Tango for the worse and I just
> don't like what you're doing. Why can't you just do
> things the Argentine way?
> I guess that's my question.
>
> Keith, HK
>
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:30:20 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Don't waste our time Nina - never heard of Google? Oscar teaches
at El Beso. Is your next question .... what's El Beso?
A better question would be who's Tom Stermitz.
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 22:58 , Nina Pesochinsky sent:
>Who is Oscar Casas?
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:43:23 -0500
From: "Patricia Katz" <pkatz@trebnet.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: "Tango-L" <tango-L@mit.edu>
It seems some leaders, even after a couple of years of classes, are locked into the 8CB while dancing during the milonga.
Teachers seem to use this 8CB as a tool for beginners so that beginners can feel some sort of sense of accomplishment and have something to use during the milonga.
But why is this figure still used by some leaders after a few years of classes? It's boring when leaders use this after every few walking steps.
How many teachers really show that the dance can be beautifully done by simply walking with elegance and precision, using the music to determine the flow, doing some turns and not using the 8CB every couple of steps?
pk
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:44:17 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
Nancy,
This is exactly what I thought would happen, but hoped wouldn't.
Americans immediately on the defensive, putting words in my mouth
and making no attempt to answer my questions.
Nancy, is there any American alive today who knows more about
Tango than Oscar Casas? Simple question. And, as I said - he's
just one example. The real question is, who knows more about
teaching and dancing Tango - Argentines or Americans?
Another simple question.
And, yes I teach. And I do my very best to do it the way many
Argentines have taught me. I just want to understand why
Americans think they have a better way of teaching Tango.
That's all I'm asking. Can anyone answer the question, please.
Keith, HK
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 07:46:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Tango For Her <tangopeer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Interesting side story ...
As a beginner, I remember a teacher asking if any of
the leaders could dance themselves into a cross. That
is, dance their own feet into a cross.
I volunteered. The only way that I could conceive of
doing that was to lead the basic-8 as though my
partner was the leader and I was the follower.
Mission complete!
My point is ... I guess, all I knew was the Basic-8.
So, keep writing those posts on how to break out of
it!
Be a better friend, newshound, and
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:49:57 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Keith,
You are doing a fine job wasting your own time. If I have not heard
of this Oscar and have to google him, that means he is not good
enough or famous enough to talk about. :)
Just because someone is teaching at El Beso, and just because this
person is Argentine, means nothing. They are dime-a-dozen these
days, of all ages and from all eras.
By the way, the dancing at El Beso is also kinda unpredictable at
times. Not a good explample. Keith. Try again.
Nina
At 08:30 AM 2/13/2008, Keith wrote:
>Don't waste our time Nina - never heard of Google? Oscar teaches
>at El Beso. Is your next question .... what's El Beso?
>
>A better question would be who's Tom Stermitz.
>
>Keith, HK
>
>
> On Wed Feb 13 22:58 , Nina Pesochinsky sent:
>
> >Who is Oscar Casas?
>
>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:59:05 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-L@mit.edu>
I don't think you are being anti-american; just angry and rude. I
don't understand the anger. Rudeness can occur in any culture.
I do not teach the 8CB. I don't do the 8CB. It does not work on a
social dance floor. Try it.... Oops, ran into this guy; oops ran into
that guy; oops why the heck is that guy stepping backwards onto me.
Watch the poor beginners with the 8CB struggle, become frustrated, and
quit. If you an avoid imprinting the 8CB on beginners, you can at
least doubles your retention rate.
I've been to Buenos Aires a number of times.
Frankly? There are a lot of bad dancers in Argentina. It was better 10
years ago, although maybe I've improved as much as the quality there
has declined. I will say that, in general, even the bad Argentine
dancers usually have an understanding of the feel, music and meaning
of tango.
There are several fairly significant differences (generally speaking)
between Argentine teachers and US teachers.
First, Tango isn't taught in a weekend workshop. It is a week-after-
week practice. The "master" of the month blows in like the wind, and
leaves no trace but a few wacky ganchos, bruised ankles and injured
backs. (Actually, there is a strange marketing arms race of
superlatives about each and the next "master of the masters".)
(1) Teaching in Argentina, the students are more likely to know the
music, and know what the dance looks and feels like. Arriving at the
typical milonga, the failure of the 8CB is immediately obvious. You
could almost get away with "just teaching steps", knowing that the
students just need a framework.
In the US, we are faced with teaching the cultural package of tango,
not just steps. Here is the music; here is what it looks like and
feels like; here is how the posture is; here is how a milonga is
organized. I think most Argentine teachers have no concept of how to
teach the cultural aspects to foreigners and just throw up their hands.
(2) Most (not all) Argentines who travel have achieved mastery and
acclaim in Buenos Aires. This normally means they are great stage
dancers or they are good at the athletic, nuevo style. A super-skilled
dancer is not always the best person to teach normal-skilled people.
Nothing wrong with nuevo or stage, but 99% of my students are normal,
people, doing tango for fun. They are never going to be on stage, and
they would need lots of training (and to subtract 20 years off their
age) to achieve the fancy nuevo vocabulary. As a result many (not all)
US teachers and I focus on social style of tango.
(3) Most Argentines don't have the experience of creating and
nurturing a tango community from scratch. Advertising; gathering in
beginner students; getting them to stick and learn; creating the
transition from beginner to Intermediate; watching them figure out how
to dance in a milonga setting.
You learn a few things in 10 years of teaching week-in, week-out,
multiple levels of class, watching your students go out onto the dance
floor, even watching some of them succeed in Argentina. "De donde sos
vos?", "Como es, que no bailas como estranjero", "Who was your
teacher?", "Who taught you to dance like an Argentine?".
On Feb 13, 2008, at 7:49 AM, Keith wrote:
> I'm not being disrespectful, but I really, really have trouble
> understanding the
> Americans on this List. I assume you'll freely admit that no
> American can dance
> anywhere near the level of the Argentines.And yet you still insist
> on teaching
> Tango your way and not the Argentine way. Why is that? Do you really
> think
> you know better? If you do, it's OK, just say so.
> ...
> I'm sorry if you think I'm being anti-American, as I've been accused
> before on
> this List. I'm not - but you're trying to change Tango for the worse
> and I just
> don't like what you're doing. Why can't you just do things the
> Argentine way?
> I guess that's my question.
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
> On Wed Feb 13 1:07 , Tom Stermitz sent:
>
>> On a social dance floor, the 8CB w/DBS is COMPLETELY non functional.
>> When you are social dancing, you have to break the pattern every two
>> steps, so why bother to learn a useless pattern.
>>
>> For a beginner, it is harmful:
>> - It creates rote-patterns,
>> - It takes away their prior ability to "just walk around the room"
>> - It doesn't feel like dancing
>> - It is impossible for them to dance it with grace and musicality.
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:01:15 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
I will concede the spirit (but certainly not the absolutism) of Keith's "no American can dance anywhere near the level of the Argentines." It's clear why this general principle would be the case, cultural immersion, years of listening to the music, easy availability of master role models, many opportunities to practice, etc.
OTOH Argentines have no such lock on the skill of teaching. I have seen Argentines come to festivals who, while being undeniably world-class master dancers, were abysmal teachers. The two skills have no relation to each other.
And to complicate it further, just because an Argentine has been successful teaching tango to Argentines, does not guarantee success teaching Americans or Europeans. Good teachers knows that each student learns differently, and the material must be presented to them to match their learning style. It's not unexpected that different cultures, e.g. American vs. Argentine, might require entirely different teaching styles to convey the same material to their population.
J
TangoMoments.com
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:14:27 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: "Tango-L" <tango-L@mit.edu>
Patricia,
I completely agree with you. But the point I'm trying to make is that the problem is not the 8CB, the
problem is way bad teachers use it and teach it. All Argentines learn the 8CB, I see them all the
time at beginner classes as I wait for the next intermediate class. But they don't get stuck on it
and it never becomes a problem. They just move on and progress. Why do Americans have this
big problem with the 8CB? Could it be because of the way Americans learn Tango?
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 23:43 , "Patricia Katz" sent:
>It seems some leaders, even after a couple of years of classes, are locked into the 8CB while dancing during the milonga.
>Teachers seem to use this 8CB as a tool for beginners so that beginners can feel some sort of sense of accomplishment and have something to use during the milonga.
>But why is this figure still used by some leaders after a few years of classes? It's boring when leaders use this after every few walking steps.
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:39:26 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Nina, and everybody else,
This has got nothing to do with Oscar Casas. He's just one Argentine
teacher who I happened to come across on YouTube teaching the 8CB.
I'm talking about something much bigger and not specific to any
particular teacher. I want to know why American teachers advocate
teaching Tango differently than Argentine teachers. And, right now,
I'm using the 8CB as an example. Argentines teach it and nobody has
a problem. Americans teach it and, it seems, everybody has a problem.
I just want to know why. Personally, I think the problem is the way it's
taught, whereas teachers on this list say the 8CB is the problem and it
shoudn't be taught.
That's what I want to talk about, but it seems like nobody else does.
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 23:49 , Nina Pesochinsky sent:
>Keith,
>
>You are doing a fine job wasting your own time. If I have not heard
>of this Oscar and have to google him, that means he is not good
>enough or famous enough to talk about. :)
>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:56:06 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
OK, Jay is the first person to actually touch on what I'm asking.
So, what is the difference between the American and the Argentine cultures that results in
these different teaching methods and different problems arising. What I really want to know,
personally, is why Argentines so much better than everybody else. And, please, don't put
words in my mouth again - I'm not saying every Argentine is great at Tango - of course they're
not. But a lot of them are. And the best of the best, even in the younger generation are all
Argentine. Why is that? Is it because of the way they are taught and the way they learn. I
think it is. Which brings us right back to WALKING.
Keith
On Thu Feb 14 0:01 , Jay Rabe sent:
It's not unexpected that different cultures, e.g. American vs. Argentine, might require entirely
different teaching styles to convey the same material to their population.
>
> J
> TangoMoments.com
>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:01:02 -0200
From: "robin tara" <robinctara@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: keith@tangohk.com
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<9e1cc4860802130901n1274bcb1ra9a7984fea2e4f9e@mail.gmail.com>
Keith,When I started taking classes here in Buenos Aires, back in 1994, the
teachers taught an entrance to the dance that they counted however they felt
it in the moment. It was always a game to see how many counts each maestro
gave it at any time. Some began it to the side, and others to the back or
the front. Americans studying here tried to codify what they were doing and
began to standardize the count.
As people from around the world started to come to tango mecca, they began
to spend more time analyzing what people in the milongas were actually
doing. That's when the teaching of a simpler, more musical form of tango
began to take hold internationally.
Except for many of the ballroom dance teachers that teach Argentine tango
and those who teach patterns of choreography, most teachers of sociual dance
would be better off teaching anything but the 8CB as it just isn't danced
socially, for many reasons.
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:05:20 -0700
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: tango-l@mit.edu
The legends told in 1996, dating back to 1983, had it that 8CB was
invented in the spirit of balloom dances to give AT a point of
reference where to start, when no one seemed to be able to find any
other point of reference for the improvisational nature of
tango. Stage has influenced that a lot as well, as modern dancers
tried to figure out what this dance was when it returned to
popularity in the early 80s.
Following the history of development of certain movements in tango,
another legend told that the cross was invented in the late
30s/early40s as an entrance into the turns, which became complicated
as the music has changed with two prominent orchestras.
When dancers began to look closer at the improvisational nature of
tango, it became clear that there is no basic step, only fundamental
principles, such as crossed and parallel relationship to the woman's
feet, and a few conventions, such as the cross and the sequence of
the woman's steps in the turns.
Teaching an 8CB is alright, ecxcept that it is a slow and very
old-fashioned way of teaching and dancing. It is not as efficient as
teaching can be when focused on basic principles instead of combinations.
I hope this helps.
Best regards,
Nina
At 09:39 AM 2/13/2008, you wrote:
>Nina, and everybody else,
>
>This has got nothing to do with Oscar Casas. He's just one Argentine
>teacher who I happened to come across on YouTube teaching the 8CB.
>I'm talking about something much bigger and not specific to any
>particular teacher. I want to know why American teachers advocate
>teaching Tango differently than Argentine teachers. And, right now,
>I'm using the 8CB as an example. Argentines teach it and nobody has
>a problem. Americans teach it and, it seems, everybody has a problem.
>I just want to know why. Personally, I think the problem is the way it's
>taught, whereas teachers on this list say the 8CB is the problem and it
>shoudn't be taught.
>
>That's what I want to talk about, but it seems like nobody else does.
>
>Keith, HK
>
>
> On Wed Feb 13 23:49 , Nina Pesochinsky sent:
>
> >Keith,
> >
> >You are doing a fine job wasting your own time. If I have not heard
> >of this Oscar and have to google him, that means he is not good
> >enough or famous enough to talk about. :)
> >
>
>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:13:00 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Tom said basically the same thing when he referred to the fact that culture, the feeling of tango, is integral to doing it well. But it doesn't need to be taught to an Argentine, who grew up with it, so Argentine teachers have a poor grasp on how to teach it to Americans. It Does need to be taught to Americans.
J
TangoMoments.com
> From: keith@tangohk.com
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:56:06 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
>
> OK, Jay is the first person to actually touch on what I'm asking.
>
> So, what is the difference between the American and the Argentine cultures that results in
> these different teaching methods and different problems arising. What I really want to know,
> personally, is why Argentines so much better than everybody else. And, please, don't put
> words in my mouth again - I'm not saying every Argentine is great at Tango - of course they're
> not. But a lot of them are. And the best of the best, even in the younger generation are all
> Argentine. Why is that? Is it because of the way they are taught and the way they learn. I
> think it is. Which brings us right back to WALKING.
>
> Keith
>
>
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
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Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:23:35 -0600
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
Of course, Keith (HK) is right that many Argentines teach the 8CB or use
it in their teaching. That doesn't make it the best approach to teaching.
To repeat an old story (that is at least partially true), the history of
modern tango pedagogy came from the renewed interest in tango that
resulted from the success of the show Tango Argentino. As the result of
this revival much of the initial instruction came from stage dancers, some
of whom had been heavily influenced by Antonio Todaro. Others also
reemerged to teach tango, but to be perfectly honest, most of these older
tango dancers had no pedagogy other than demonstrating their favorite step
patterns. Seeing the success of the stage dancers and other older
dancers, waves of young Argentines with backgrounds in ballet and modern
dance began learning tango with the idea of taking to the stage and
teaching. Many of these people continue to dance and teach with varying
degrees of success using the 8CB. (Some instructors, Argentine and
otherwise, even claim that learning performance choreographies will help
facilitate the development and refinement of social dance skills.) In the
United States, many of the dancers receiving such instruction, seem to end
up dancing a combination of stage and salon tango in memorized figures.
Of course, it is possible for dancers to develop beyond the limits of the
teaching they received, and many do so. So even a limited approach to
teaching can generate successes.
Two newer approaches to teaching have emerged (from Argentina). One of
these approaches--most often associated with Gustavo Naveira--is to
examine and teach the underlying structure of tango. (Mingo Pugliese also
has a structural approach to tango.) Internalized, these complex systems
facilitate the development of improvisational skills. Perhaps
inadvertently, the structural approach led to the development of
nuevo-style dancing because the strucutral approach revealed possible step
combinations that were not previously used very extensively.
Another approach--often associated with Susana Miller--is to teach tango
as small step combinations. Learning through small step combinations
facilitates improvisation, connection to one's partner and connection to
the music. These are the characteristics most absent from dance of those
who locked into the use of 8CB and other memorized figures.
Interestingly enough, Tete--whose style is often credited as one of the
inspirations for Susana Miller's pedagogy--sometimes uses an 8CB in his
dancing but with a different rhythmic approach than is characteristic of
the smoother salon approach.
So, I don't think the problem is in dancers using the 8CB, except for the
dbs. The problem is in dancers getting locked into the 8CB and other
memorized figures as Mash was expressing concern about. The use of other
instructional approaches is one way to avoid getting locked into these
patterns.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:36:01 -0500
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
To: Tango-L <tango-L@mit.edu>
I'm sorry Tom, but I think you're the one being angry and rude, not me.
Because I question the sidewalk walk that you teach and your super-strong
objections to the 8CB, you say I'm being angry and rude. All I'm saying is
that your views are contrary to what I've experienced in Argentina. You
teach a heel walk, most Argentines don't. You don't teach the 8CB, most
Argentines do. I just want to know why you think you know better than
the Argentines. That's all. I'm not being angry or rude. If it's because of
cultural difference as Jay has suggested, please tell me. If it's because
you want to make the dance easier and more accessible for your students,
fine, that's a reason. I'm sure you've done a great job in your community
but maybe some might want to get better and better and even surpass
their teacher. I just think you might be underestimating and limiting the
potential of your students. Something to think about - yes?
Keith, HK
On Wed Feb 13 23:59 , Tom Stermitz sent:
>I don't think you are being anti-american; just angry and rude. I
>don't understand the anger. Rudeness can occur in any culture.
>
>
