3436 Brothels and Tango thread - some guesses only
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 01:44:32 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Brothels and Tango thread - some guesses only
I don't know the historical migration figures for the late nineteenth and
early twentieth century, but my understanding has always been that:-
When the Brits went to the Southern hemisphere, they tended to go to
Australia.
When the Italians went to the Southern hemisphere, they tended to go to
Argentina.
With most migration, the men went first. It was only several years later
(how many years?) that the women followed. That meant that there was an
imbalance, with many more men than women. That sounds like a situation in which
brothels might well develop.
For potential brothel-keepers it also offered a business opportunity, both
to provide brothels and to import potential employees.
I don't know if that is true, but it would obviously explain the growth of
brothels. However, why should they be associated with Tango?
My guess is that when people from a highly regulated, largely Catholic
society, with a lot of codes to observe, are placed in a situation in which they
have to negotiate rather intimate, if commercial, contacts, some excuse for
getting close might be helpful, especially if it can be seen as 'normal', and
contains safeguards to prevent unintended humiliations.
Early Tango could be seen as such an excuse, and indeed might have been part
of the stock-in-trade of the ladies concerned.
However, those are simply some guesses, baseded upon guessed migration
trends and guessed social responses. Does anyone know whether there has been any
solid historical research to confirm or refute them?
After all, Tango might have been associated with brothels for only 2% of
early dancers, while the rest simply danced in the streets or respectable
public gatherings, for all I know. The first association of brothels and Tango
might simply have been advertising material for Tango teachers to make it sound
sexy and attractive. There ought to have been some research on this topic.
It's just that I don't know it. Can anyone enlighten me? Are my guesses way off
beam?
Laurie (Laurence)
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 07:27:10 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Brothels and Tango thread - some guesses only
Laurie wrote:
>I don't know if that is true, but it would obviously explain the growth of
brothels. However, why should they be associated with Tango?<
My 2 cents:
The dance academies that flourished between 1860 and 1870 were very popular
among immigrants because it facilitated the contact with women. These places
sold alcohol, were discreet brothels, and source of fights and scandal.
It is in these academies of dance where the music was played with guitars,
and candombe instruments of the time -- drums, masacallas, hueseras and
tacuaras -- to the rhythms the musicians could come up with playing from
memory. The musicians being challenged to play different rhythms which were
written in 6/8 played the music in 2/4.
It is in the dances academies where the Tango music and choreography was
experiemented.
The most famous academies of dance were located in Solis and Estados Unidos,
Pozos e Independencia, and in Carmen Varela in Plaza Lorea.
Best regards,
Bruno
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:21:02 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Brothels and Tango thread - some guesses only
Hi Laurence
Your guesses are not so far from statistical numbers . There is some written information that coud be a back up for your guesses .
I am not sure what kind of consistence or accuracy have your guesses, since I have not official records , also statistics was not a main issue in Argentina from many years. The first Census was made on 1880 , and was very limited.
I am also making guesses, based in some comments of my grandparents, and talks that I have with people that like to work on Tango subjects, as Mr,. Oscar Himschoout , the owner of Club del Tango in Buenos Aires .
1. Inmigration
To talk about something I was told , my family came from three different "tides" of inmigration
- Irish people that arrived during 1870-1880
- Italian people that arrived around 1897
- French people that arrived around 1880.This part of the family is interesting, because they came due to religious problems in France with their beliefs, they were hugonots.
It is true most italians that went to South America ended in Buenos Aires. But italians are not the only strong inmigration tide, there were also spaniards, and many other people, in decreasing order of arrivals they were :
- jewish people that were nicknamed "russian/rusos" but that really came from Polland and the former USSR (mainly actual Ukraine, Kiev city and surroundings). This will be interesting to talk separately , the influence of jewish culture in tango. There is a good book about it , from Julio Nudler, a researcher ,"Jewish and Tango" . Let s say briefly that there are three names that could not be ignored concerning Tango:
***Max Glucksman, the owner of Odeon music records and promoter of tango contests of dance, singing and music for many years ,on the early part of the XX century
***Julio Korn, the editor of most of the musical scores that were used to play at the piano , in private houses , also in the early part of XX century . Just as a footnote, in 1906 , the Sarmiento fregate, the flagship that make a world journey for graduates from the Army, set sail with 1.000 musical scores of La Morocha to Paris , where they were received as hot bread.
*** Jaime Yankelevich, a pioneer in radio broadcast, that hire tango singers and musicians for live audiences, making a success with tango music through radio broadcasting, followed by many other competitors.
- people that came from Middle East and other muslim countries , mainly from lebanon & syria.They were nicknamed turkish/turcos. There were armenian people , and they were nicknamed also "turkish/turcos" , not in a cruel joke, but in ignorance .The holocaust of Armenian people by the turks was not widely known in Buenos Aires, it was necessary many years to clear this matter . Actually a milonga , La Viruta, is held at the Armenian centre, I mentioned this just as a side comment, and to say that the street where La Viruta is based, has a lot of armenian culture around, with Clubs, restaurants,. church , schools (and a nearby orthodox cathedral), so this inmigrants succeed in keeping his beliefs ( they are orthodox catholics) ,music and culture, here in Buenos Aires.
- people that came from Ireland ,the first tide was with the potatoe famine, around the second half of XIX century, later they came on the first half of XX century . Buenos Aires has the 4th largest irish community in the world, after USA , Australia & England.
-many other ethnics groups. There were not many asian people, excluding a small but busy and lively community of japanese people, mainly from Okinawa island. They settle part in Buenos Aires and part in Escobar, a city 38 kms NW Buenos Aires, where they made flowers and plants. They are still there with a year exhibition of flowers, quite good.
2) Brothels and/or shantyhouses/conventillos.
It is true there were brothels, also sinister organizations as Zwig Migdal , that called theirselves " skin traders" , that brought from Europe young women to prostitute ( talking about slavery, well, here was a case of slavery ).
But I think the shanty houses/conventillos, were places where all this ethnics lived together , and , out of many , one . This is my guessing , that brothels do not boost tango as music , but the shanty houses/conventillos, with all their cultures and different instruments that people brought with them, the violin with the jewish people, the guitars with spanish people and italian people , and also the musical knowledge they brought , concerning european music. They find a city that was not so big as it is today .At the beginning of XX century it was almost a line running altogether with the river , from the riachuelo port at La Boca neighbourhood to the Buenos Aires river port , ending where today is Palermo neighbourhood more or less. The "city" inwards , ended at Once & Flores neigbourhoods,that were the ourskirts ( as Barracas was at thesouth ) so places like Belgrano and Villa Urquiza, Chacarita, were out of the city limits.
The yellow fever plague in 1871 made this out of boundaries places to be occupied by people from the center of the city . This was temporary, but have an effect later , so when the inmigration tides arrived,. many families with a good income left for this out of boundaries places where they have been before, and where they have "week end " houses, to stay there . In the meantine, downtown houses were reshaped or replaced with bowarding houses , some of them , this shanty houses/conventillos , where each room hosted a complete family, and where bathorooms and kitchen have to be shared .Also the common internal yard , the place where the cultures and languages melted. It would have be fascinating to live those years .
Many theatrical scores take this shanty houses as leit motiv . There were popular "soap operas" of those days called "sainetes" , short scenes where the characters were "the italian" "the spaniard" "the turk" and son on.One of them "The shantyhouse of La Paloma" , based on a real place that existed, is still played in Buenos Aires theatres.
3) Brothels and prostitution.
This beginning of the XX century , with plenty of men , and no women, made the prostitution to be an active trade. There were many houses or brothels, and also local legislation from the city, to prevent the spread of venereal diseases , the so called "french malade" or siphilis, mainly. The prostitutes have to obtain a medical book, that was kept at the brothels and demanded by revising doctors send by the town hall. Local taxes were collected also, not to the prostitutes, but to the owners, for the right to have their houses open. This legislation and mild policy ended by the middle of the 304s , when the first military coup was done. This was the time also , for the local catholic church , to boost their presence and damnation of prostitution. Houses were closed, prostitutes have to work on the shadow , and in some way , this source or link for tango , ceased to exist.
There were private meetings at some dancing houses like the one of Maria Laura, at Paraguay and Pueyrredon streets ( which it is still at the place, now as a house for the third age ,a geriatric ).
Francisco Canaro wrote in his biography, that they were hired by people to play music at Maria Laura, or La Vasca , places where tango music and dancing was made, but there were no sexual prostitution, at least not in the place, if men and women arrange to go to other place, it was a particular matter. As Canaro recall, order was kept by Maria Laura with an iron hand, and if one of the guests was not correct, was expelled from the place. Elegant clothes were required to assist.
This is part of the guesses, there are many works about them, unfortunately in spanish.
The place where the inmigrants were temporarily housed until they find a place to settle , know as Inmigrants Hotel (also used for quarantine purposes and medical controls ), is actually the Inmigrants museum and also the place where the Inmigrants National Direction have their office.
There is actually plenty of handwritten information being reprocessed into media files , also a service to help to find in which date and ship , the members of a family arrived.
The first registers of information were the tallies of the captain of the ships where they note the names and ports of origin of the inmigrants. This registers, uncompleted as they were , are the primary source of information , followed later by some official registration of local Buenos Aires port authorities .
The site of this museum is https://www.mininterior.gov.ar/migraciones/museo/museo_el_hotel.htm
Although is in spanish, it has many historical photos
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi- Mattinato / Hussey - Devereux / Jourdain - Blanchet :)
Buenos Aires inmigrant descendant
e some information that could back up
LGMoseley@AOL.COM escribis:
I don't know the historical migration figures for the late nineteenth and
early twentieth century, but my understanding has always been that:-
When the Brits went to the Southern hemisphere, they tended to go to
Australia.
When the Italians went to the Southern hemisphere, they tended to go to
Argentina.
With most migration, the men went first. It was only several years later
(how many years?) that the women followed. That meant that there was an
imbalance, with many more men than women. That sounds like a situation in which
brothels might well develop.
For potential brothel-keepers it also offered a business opportunity, both
to provide brothels and to import potential employees.
I don't know if that is true, but it would obviously explain the growth of
brothels. However, why should they be associated with Tango?
My guess is that when people from a highly regulated, largely Catholic
society, with a lot of codes to observe, are placed in a situation in which they
have to negotiate rather intimate, if commercial, contacts, some excuse for
getting close might be helpful, especially if it can be seen as 'normal', and
contains safeguards to prevent unintended humiliations.
Early Tango could be seen as such an excuse, and indeed might have been part
of the stock-in-trade of the ladies concerned.
However, those are simply some guesses, baseded upon guessed migration
trends and guessed social responses. Does anyone know whether there has been any
solid historical research to confirm or refute them?
After all, Tango might have been associated with brothels for only 2% of
early dancers, while the rest simply danced in the streets or respectable
public gatherings, for all I know. The first association of brothels and Tango
might simply have been advertising material for Tango teachers to make it sound
sexy and attractive. There ought to have been some research on this topic.
It's just that I don't know it. Can anyone enlighten me? Are my guesses way off
beam?
Laurie (Laurence)
Abrm tu cuenta aqum
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:20:04 -0400
From: Janet Riksen <jriksen@WETA.COM>
Subject: Re: Brothels and Tango thread - some guesses only
For over a month I have been trying to find out how to remove my name from
this list serve. If you have any clue, please let me know.
Thanks so much!
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:54:47 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Brothels and Tango
Wanting something to be not X, and it actually being not X are two different
things. I agree that most Tango aficionados, myself included, would not make
the Tango-brothel association. However, many non-Tango-dancers do still
appear to make that connection. Only last month, I saw some advertising material
for a Tango class (material not produced by a tanguero) which started "born
in the steamy bordellos of Buenos Aires at the turn of the century.....". I do
not see why it should have been any different 100 years ago. What I was
looking for was some evidence of whether it was or not. I would like to offer my
thanks to the kind people who sent me considered opinions and some evidence
that there was a connection.
Forgetting the brothel connection, many non-Tango-dancers still make the
Tango-sex connection. After a recent demo (of social tango with no Fantasia
connotation), I heard one group of young people saying, somewhat sotto voce,
"Cor, sex on legs", and some ballroom dancers make similar comments. I think that
shows like Tango Pasion also play upon the image to a fair degree.
There is some evidence that in its early days Tango was associated with
brothels (as well as with other places). What is still not clear to me is why
this was so. After all, the men, who were in the majority, could have visited
the places without dancing a step. Why then do Tango?
Today, I'm pretty confident that the link no longer exists, except perhaps
in the minds of some non-dancers. However, what I was looking for was any
indication that someone had studied the phenomenon and produced some reasonably
firm historical data one way or the other.
Laurie
Astrid wrote
The first association of brothels and Tango
> might simply have been advertising material for Tango teachers to make it
sound
> sexy and attractive. Are my guesses way off
> beam?
>
I think, they are, indeed. Even nowadays many self-respecting Argentinians
will not be publicly or otherwise associated with tango. Imagine in the old
days, and the morality of the time- you really think, making something sound
"sexy", or associating it with brothel life, would have attracted people,
who are not into frequenting those places ?
In fact, in the old days, they did not even have tango teachers.
Astrid
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:16:31 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Brothels and Tango
I'd like to thank Bruno for a clear answer. Of course, I still have to
locate the book, but it's a good start.
Thanks, Bruno
Laurie (Laurence)
_________________________Snip________________________________
Sergio wrote:
Laurie says: "There is some evidence that in its early days Tango was
associated with
brothels (as well as with other places). What is still not clear to me is
why
this was so. After all, the men, who were in the majority, could have
visited
the places without dancing a step. Why then do Tango?
Today, I'm pretty confident that the link no longer exists, except perhaps
in the minds of some non-dancers. However, what I was looking for was any
indication that someone had studied the phenomenon and produced some
reasonably
firm historical data one way or the other."
**There is plenty of documentation with respect of the association of tango
and brothels.
A booklet that was recently mentioned by Bruno, " Tango testigo social"
(Tango social witness) by Andres H. Carretero is one of them. This author
has written many articles and booklets in reference to life and
prostitution in Buenos Aires such as " Prostitucion in Buenos Aires" and
"Vida cotidiana en Buenos Aires". (Daily life in B.A.).
I read some of those books many years ago and I do not have them with me (as
I am now in North America and I left them in my house in Buenos Aires) but I
remember that Carretero presents lots of material from different sources
such as City Hall ordinances or from the Federal Police archives that
definitely associate tango and brothels.
The outskirts of the cities of Buenos Aires was a place of collision of
different cultures as all sort of immigrants, saylors, gauchos, compadritos
and city boys of "good class" mixed together looking for fun in multiple
bars, academias y pirigundines. There you would find women, gambling,
drinking, music, dancing and sex. Some sort of "Saloon" of the North
American Far West.
These were places where you went to sit down, play cards, listen to music,
dance, meet ladies and eventually have sex with them. The ladies and the
men did not associate randomly as it is done today just for sex. There was
more than that. You had to impress a lady with your machismo, your savoir
fair and you dancing skills for her to pay attention to you. When finally
she had sex with you the payment could be presents such as jewelry or other
things rather than just money. Many men fell in love with those women and
tried to live normal lives with them. Tango Lyrics are full of such stories.
How was tango born in such a place? ...this will be the theme of another
note as this one is already long enough.
Best regards to you all.
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:12:42 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Brothels and Tango
> There is some evidence that in its early days Tango was associated with
> brothels (as well as with other places). What is still not clear to me is
why
> this was so. After all, the men, who were in the majority, could have
visited
> the places without dancing a step. Why then do Tango?
>
Laurie,
you remind me of that female Japanese tango teacher, who asked me with a
frown of disapproval:"What are you laughing about?" when the Argentine
showed us our first levantada (using her as a model). She stood there, with
her leg lifted high and wrapped around the man's thigh, all preoccupied
"with the right technique" and could not understand what I was giggling
about.
Astrid
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:52:47 EDT
From: LGMoseley@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Brothels and Tango
Astrid write:
"Laurie,
you remind me of that female Japanese tango teacher, who asked me with a
frown of disapproval:"What are you laughing about?" when the Argentine
showed us our first levantada (using her as a model). She stood there, with
her leg lifted high and wrapped around the man's thigh, all preoccupied
"with the right technique" and could not understand what I was giggling
about.
Astrid"
When one is carrying out a complex action, one wants it to be automatic and
intuitive. In order to get to that stage, one has first to put in the hard
analysis (to know how one does it) and practice (to get it into your synapses
and muscles). A good teacher should help you with the analysis and with the
practice.
There may be a trade-off between analysis and practice, i.e. even if you do
not understand how to do something, you might be able to learn it by
sufficient practice and repetition. In that case, some people will get the internal
feel, but others will not. Many will need a great deal of practice, others
will learn the wrong things, yet others will simply give up. That is why we see
some people dancing like baby elephants, and women who become ocho or giro
machines - press the button and off they go - with no attempt at listening to
their partner's body.
So:- learning and doing are two different activities, and require different
skills.
Of course, for the leaders, even when dancing, one still has to navigate
round a crowded floor. That requires some forethought and analysis, so for the
leader the analytical ability may be useful not only in the learning, but in
the doing as well. I'd welcome your view on whether that is true for the
follower too.
Best wishes
Laurie (Laurence)
Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:48:59 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Brothels and Tango
Hi Laurie,
Assuming one really wants to learn and improve their
tango, I think that your comments apply to everyone -
men or women.
The reason for needing the analysis or what they are
analyzing may be different. Suppose one is in a
workshop learning a particular movement. Men might
analyze the step in terms of what he needs to do, the
specific torso/leg movements, how it applies on the
dance floor, the technique involved, etc. Women might
analyze it more on the basis of what it is supposed to
feel like to them, how to make it pretty, how it feels
different/same to other movements, how it may affect
their technique/balance, etc.
Although women often say that they don't want to learn
how the man's part, I think it's important that they
understand and analyze the concepts behind the
movement. This can help them give useful feedback to
their partner and also help them recognize when they
are being unfairly criticized by men who do not
actually invite what they think they invite.
Women who stop going to workshops miss out on this
anaysis and it shows in their dancing. Even if they
know the step, they could still learn from seeing it
from the man's perspective. They are not interested
in the analysis or the details, so they don't know
what they need to work on.
Trini
--- LGMoseley@AOL.COM wrote:
> There may be a trade-off between analysis and
> practice, i.e. even if you do
> not understand how to do something, you might be
> able to learn it by
> sufficient practice and repetition. >
> Of course, for the leaders, even when dancing, one
> still has to navigate
> round a crowded floor. That requires some
> forethought and analysis, so for the
> leader the analytical ability may be useful not only
> in the learning, but in
> the doing as well. I'd welcome your view on whether
> that is true for the
> follower too.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:31:09 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Brothels and Tango
> Astrid write:
>
> "Laurie,
> you remind me of that female Japanese tango teacher, who asked me with a
> frown of disapproval:"What are you laughing about?" when the Argentine
> showed us our first levantada (using her as a model). She stood there,
with
> her leg lifted high and wrapped around the man's thigh, all preoccupied
> "with the right technique"
Laurie replied:
> When one is carrying out a complex action, one wants it to be automatic
and
> intuitive. In order to get to that stage, one has first to put in the hard
> analysis (to know how one does it) and practice (to get it into your
synapses
etc.etc.etc.
This is exactly, what I mean, Laurie. Your original question was, if you may
recall, why men would dance tango in brothels.
You will not hit on the reason if you keep thinking about analysis and
synapses and such.
Ever wasted any thought on what many of those moves actually mean?
Astrid
