5234 : buenos aires milongas
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:26:23 -0400
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: [Tango-L] : buenos aires milongas
To: "Deby Novitz" <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C70196EB34@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Feminist backlash? Not even sure I understand the context of that statement, coming from you, someone who dances tango, a macho dance, in BA, a macho culture. The reason there are more skilled leaders here is demographics. There are more leaders here in the milongas, practicas, and advanced classes. The women only need to become passable, and they think, why should I bother the time and money on classes when I get all the men I can handle anyway? If the lead is good, I can dance,.. Etc. So the advanced workshops always have extra leaders. Note I said leaders, not necessarily men. When a woman leads, as is often the case here, it takes two women away from the pool of available followers, as she rarely leads a man. The more advanced the class, the more the leaders outnumber the followers. I think the nuevo trend is accelerating the number of women who want to lead, since the embrace is so much more open and the dance loses the traditional gender roles. Festivals a!
re somewhat better balanced, unless they seek to limit attendance by gender balance, which does not work unless they specifically ask whether the registrant is taking the class as a lead or a follow. Not sure which festivals Ceverett attends, but I have never seen a festival class which was skewed the way he says.
-----Original Message-----
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 13:45:18 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Deby Novitz wrote:
<snip/>
> You know I find it interesting that men outside of B.A. are now saying
> how there are more skilled leaders than followers. I find it rather
> humorous, especially since I have danced with some of them. Is this a
> male tango dancer feminist backlash?
Just a note from here on the floor, as it were. I'm finding that at
least in the middle of the US it is the case that there are more skilled
men than women. Of course, here we have a ton more men at the milongas
(one I went to last year was memorable because it had something like 4
women and a dozen men.) However, even numbers aside, I am finding that
I'm seriously stuck on a plateau because there just aren't more skilled
women to dance with. Most think that the women's role is largely passive
so they don't need to do much. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see that as
the case and the best women I've danced with, far from going along for
the ride, are darn fine dancers all the way around. Indeed, a lot of
them are better than the leads.
Guess what I'm positing as a question is this in the US:
==> Do you think the women's role is highly skilled in tango? If so, do
you think there is a false perception among women that the opposite is
the case? <==
If what I am seeing is more widespread, then some effort needs to be
made in the community to let women know that they have a bona fide skill
to learn. As it stands now for me with very few exceptions leading much
of anything is lost on them, so I'm getting more than a little bored.
Again not with tango, but from not having really anyone to do it with.
Just curious...
Jeff G
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:20:08 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
To: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
There are women who take relatively few lessons and go directly into teaching!! The same is true for some guys... It's actually remarkable that so many people actually stop improving their dance and actually get worse and yet continue to go to milongas and get mad when they don't get asked to dance.....
The best dancers are continually practicing and improving. Interestingly enough, the better dancers are the ones more likely to participate in workshops, lessons, etc. It makes perfect sense that the ones who dance less well are the ones who avoid taking classes or attending workshops. Sure, some guys and women do get better or at least stay sharp by going to a lot milongas. However, they were pretty good to begin with and since they dance a lot, they improve or maintain their dance level.
The ones who are mediocre to bad, go to no classes or practicas and fewer milongas. It's no surprise that they don't get to dance as much as they'd like. It then become a vicious cycle. They less they get to dance, the worse they get and the less they get to dance... Frankly, it's actually physically painful to dance with some people. I avoid dancing with them because after a night of wrestling with them on the pista, I'm actually sore and need chiropractic adjustments ;-)
Cheers,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>
> If what I am seeing is more widespread, then some effort needs to be
> made in the community to let women know that they have a bona fide skill
> to learn. As it stands now for me with very few exceptions leading much
> of anything is lost on them, so I'm getting more than a little bored.
> Again not with tango, but from not having really anyone to do it with.
>
> Just curious...
>
> Jeff G
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:29:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: musette fan <musettefan@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] : buenos aires milongas
To: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Martin,
Which NYC milongas and practicas do you attend that have such a high ratio of
men/"skilled leaders"? I might go out of my way to see that for myself. Feel free
to email me privately if you don't want it to go out to the whole list.
Thanks,
Terri
--- "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov> wrote:
> Feminist backlash? Not even sure I understand the context of that statement,
> coming from you, someone who dances tango, a macho dance, in BA, a macho culture.
> The reason there are more skilled leaders here is demographics. There are more
> leaders here in the milongas, practicas, and advanced classes. The women only
> need to become passable, and they think, why should I bother the time and money on
> classes when I get all the men I can handle anyway? If the lead is good, I can
> dance,.. Etc. So the advanced workshops always have extra leaders. Note I said
> leaders, not necessarily men. When a woman leads, as is often the case here, it
> takes two women away from the pool of available followers, as she rarely leads a
> man. The more advanced the class, the more the leaders outnumber the followers.
> I think the nuevo trend is accelerating the number of women who want to lead,
> since the embrace is so much more open and the dance loses the traditional gender
> roles. Festivals are somewhat better balanced, unless they seek to limit
> attendance by gender balance, which does not work unless they specifically ask
> whether the registrant is taking the class as a lead or a follow. Not sure which
> festivals Ceverett attends, but I have never seen a festival class which was
> skewed the way he says.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Deby Novitz [mailto:dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 9:24 PM
> To: Nussbaum, Martin
> Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: buenos aires milongas
>
> I am not sure what you mean when you say "is my statement true, or is it a
> perception." I live and dance here. I am a part of the local community just as
> you are in your cities. I also lived and danced in the U.S. before moving here
> permanently. The milongas here are much different than the U.S. Here the
> milongas are social events. If you don't dance you can always enjoy the company
> of your friends. Many times people come to the milongas here and don't dance
> because they are having fun with their friends. Men and women who dance here will
> always tell you that there are many more women here than men in the milongas.
>
> With reference to my comment, I am not talking about your average dancer in the
> milonga. I am talking about your best dancers. The ones that really know how to
> dance. Take 100 dancers. Of that 100 65 are women and 35 are men. So you have
> 35 men to dance with 65 women. Of the 65 women, maybe 15 are excellent dancers.
> Of the 35 men maybe 5 are excellent. So there are 5 men for 15 women. Then there
> are the rest of the dancers. Those 5 men know they are the best dancers.
>
> Those 5 men don't have to worry about anyone accepting a dance with them. Even if
> it is a night where there are an even or a close to even amount of men to women.
> They know all the women want to dance with them. They can dance with whoever they
> want. The women do not have this luxury. We cannot ask men to dance. We can
> look at them all night long and if they do not want to accept our invitation they
> won?t, regardless of who we are or how well we dance. That man is King,
> regardless of how he looks - he can have cigarette breath, a stomach, and be bald.
> But if he can dance all that is forgiven inside the milonga.
>
> If those 5 guys don't show up, then what do us 15 women say? "There is no one to
> dance with." Those other 30 guys don't count. If we really want to dance, then
> we dance with other men whose levels are close to those 5 guys. Just like those 5
> guys who are the Kings, the men know, they hold the power of whether we dance or
> not. If we have turned down guys repeatedly in the past, then there is no way
> they will dance with us now. It is like they are saying "Suffer bitch, you ain't
> gettin no dance from me now."
>
> I do not know one milonga here in Buenos Aires where there are more men than
> women. At one time when I first came to Buenos Aires, there were more men. Now
> that is no longer true. There are always more women.
> Especially if there is a football game on. At times at the end of a milonga here
> there maybe a few more men. Lots of reasons for that. (I am talking 4 am) There
> are more professional women than men who dance tango. That means that they have
> to go to work in the morning. Many of the men are retired.
>
> You know I find it interesting that men outside of B.A. are now saying how there
> are more skilled leaders than followers. I find it rather humorous, especially
> since I have danced with some of them. Is this a male tango dancer feminist
> backlash?
>
>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 23:58:40 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Well said Manuel. When will people realise that for most people, as with any other physical activity, lessons and practice are necessary
to improve and even to avoid going backwards. OK, after 40 years, as with the milongueros of BsAs - you don't need classes and practice
anymore. Then you can just dance. Only another 30 years to go :-).
PS - I have my physiotherapy appointment this afternoon :-).
On Thu Oct 11 3:20 , WHITE 95 R sent:
>
>There are women who take relatively few lessons and go directly into teaching!! The same is true for some guys... It's actually
remarkable that so many people actually stop improving their dance and actually get worse and yet continue to go to milongas and get mad
when they don't get asked to dance.....
>
>The best dancers are continually practicing and improving. Interestingly enough, the better dancers are the ones more likely to
participate in workshops, lessons, etc. It makes perfect sense that the ones who dance less well are the ones who avoid taking classes or
attending workshops. Sure, some guys and women do get better or at least stay sharp by going to a lot milongas. However, they were pretty
good to begin with and since they dance a lot, they improve or maintain their dance level.
>
>The ones who are mediocre to bad, go to no classes or practicas and fewer milongas. It's no surprise that they don't get to dance as much
as they'd like. It then become a vicious cycle. They less they get to dance, the worse they get and the less they get to dance... Frankly,
it's actually physically painful to dance with some people. I avoid dancing with them because after a night of wrestling with them on the
pista, I'm actually sore and need chiropractic adjustments ;-)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Manuel
>
>visit our webpage
>www.tango-rio.com
>
>
>>
>> If what I am seeing is more widespread, then some effort needs to be
>> made in the community to let women know that they have a bona fide skill
>> to learn. As it stands now for me with very few exceptions leading much
>> of anything is lost on them, so I'm getting more than a little bored.
>> Again not with tango, but from not having really anyone to do it with.
>>
>> Just curious...
>>
>> Jeff G
>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:17:12 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Just what skills are you talking about Jeff? When you say ... "leading much
of anything is lost on them", it sounds like you're talking about figures.
In BsAs, pretty much all anybody dances in the milongas is Walking, Ochos
and Giros. It's all about improvising to the music Jeff, not the figures.
Keith, HK
On Thu Oct 11 2:45 , Jeff Gaynor sent:
>
>Guess what I'm positing as a question is this in the US:
>
>==> Do you think the women's role is highly skilled in tango? If so, do
>you think there is a false perception among women that the opposite is
>the case?
>
>If what I am seeing is more widespread, then some effort needs to be
>made in the community to let women know that they have a bona fide skill
>to learn. As it stands now for me with very few exceptions leading much
>of anything is lost on them, so I'm getting more than a little bored.
>Again not with tango, but from not having really anyone to do it with.
>
>Just curious...
>
>Jeff G
>
>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 09:05:39 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Keith wrote:
> Just what skills are you talking about Jeff? When you say ... "leading much
> of anything is lost on them", it sounds like you're talking about figures.
> In BsAs, pretty much all anybody dances in the milongas is Walking, Ochos
> and Giros. It's all about improvising to the music Jeff, not the figures.
>
I actually don't really know many figures at all. I am referring to attempting
to get, e.g., a clockwise turn that the woman doesn't automatically resolve
into an ocho. Heck last week I had one so bad I actually tried letting go of
her in the middle of it and she *still* did a solo ocho. I could have been
across the room for all I could influence her.
How do you politely indicate to
someone like that they need to actually pay attention to the lead for a
change? Women talk about a man's delicate ego but forget they have one too.
I see tango as an interaction: I offer something and then follow how she resolves it.
If there are only a couple of resolutions women seem to know or at least bother practicing
up to any level of fluency, what to do? I'm starting to think like Manuel and just avoid
certain women on the floor.
Jeff G
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:50:02 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Of course, Jeff, I'm sure the reason couldn't possibly be your poor leading.
Personally, I've never had a woman ... "automatically resolve into an ocho".
If you want something different, Jeff, lead something different. And if you
can't - don't blame the woman.
Keith, HK
On Thu Oct 11 22:05 , Jeff Gaynor sent:
>I actually don't really know many figures at all. I am referring to attempting
>to get, e.g., a clockwise turn that the woman doesn't automatically resolve
>into an ocho. Heck last week I had one so bad I actually tried letting go of
>her in the middle of it and she *still* did a solo ocho. I could have been
>across the room for all I could influence her.
>
>How do you politely indicate to
>someone like that they need to actually pay attention to the lead for a
>change? Women talk about a man's delicate ego but forget they have one too.
>I see tango as an interaction: I offer something and then follow how she resolves it.
>If there are only a couple of resolutions women seem to know or at least bother practicing
>up to any level of fluency, what to do? I'm starting to think like Manuel and just avoid
>certain women on the floor.
>
>Jeff G
>
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:24:08 +1000
From: Victor Bennetts <Victor_Bennetts@infosys.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
<EBAF6BD07D1C6C42AF55D51893B4C6DA0151416AD9@AUSMELMBX01.ad.infosys.com>
Ron wrote: > Imagine telling a beginner man...
My wife and I were lucky enough to do a class recently with Fabian Peralta and Virginia Pandolfi and they said leading is like driving a car. At first you think it is impossible to concentrate on follower, music, navigation, posture, connection etc all at once, but after a while it will just become second nature. They certainly make it look easy :-).
Victor Bennetts
From: Tango Society of Central Illinois [mailto:tango.society@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2007 1:08 PM
To: Jay Rabe
Cc: Victor Bennetts; tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Skilled women [was: buenos aires milongas]
On 10/11/07, Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Victor wrote:> Its not unusual for a follower to do something you don't expect.
Amen. In fact, if you get right down to it, it's pretty UNusual for a follower, no matter how experienced, to do EXACTLY what you expect, in terms of her step speed, direction, or timing. IMO one of the goals of a leader is to accommodate the variability of his follower's responses. Like Gavito said, "I lead, but I follow." The leader cannot afford to "expect," to count on, a specific response. He must wait for her to start moving, pay enough attention to her that he can see/feel what she's doing, and adjust his step and body mechanics accordingly.
Sssh. Don't tell anyone this. This is a secret.
Imagine telling a beginner man he has to learn to find the rhythm of the music, watch out for navigational hazards on the dance floor, develop a strategy on the spot for dealing with them choosing from a repertoire of movements he has learned, then lead the woman to move in the intended direction with the intended speed while maintaining the connection, and THEN ...
HE HAS TO FOLLOW THE WOMAN'S REPSONSE TO HIS LEAD TO DETERMINE HIS NEXT MOVE ?? (within a millisecond, after all, this is not chess), and take responsibility for whatever goes wrong.
And we wonder why there aren't enough men in tango.
Yet the surviving men keep trying. It must be that the rewards of tango are greater than its obstacles.
Ron
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