4614  Call to Tango...

Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:17:37 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Call to Tango...
To: tango-l@mit.edu

"It is not inevitable. It is inevitable only of poor bulk teaching.

A teacher can have smaller groups. A teacher grade the students better. A
teacher can use assistants, so that different abilities can get focused
attention.

A good teacher adapts to avoid putting the majority of the class in over
its head."

There's alot of pressure on teachers wherein it's been my observation that
the responsibility of improvement falls upon the students. If they don't
practice, they forget what they learn and thus, not yet ready to advance to
the next level. For example, in my class, I've never seen any of the
students at milongas whereas I have been going to milongas since I started
the first level class. As a result, I'm far more "advanced" and far more
able to learn new steps more quickly than the other students. My techniques
is better as well as my movement and ability to follow. Teachers can only do
so much - it's up to the students to do their "homework" a.k.a. practice.

Secondly, tango teachers don't make alot of money - if they have smaller
classes, they make less money. They need to pay for their space, for the
teachers, for the music equipment, for the utilities and for "assistants"
that you suggested.

But I've just started going to another school wherein one can go anytime
they want to learn valse, milonga and movement technique - of course the
difficulty level is much higher but you have the advantage of learning among
students of all levels of experience and skills which makes you learn faster
as you try harder to be as good as the others. Peer pressure goes a long way
in terms of rate of advancement. The teachers make the students switch
partners all the time - and if anyone was the odd one out - they dance with
the teachers until the next switch.

Conversely, in my Intermediate Level II class, I feel as though I'm being
forced to regress as I learn among students who don't make the effort to
practice outside of class. And it's starting to piss me off a little - I
feel like asking them why are you here if you don't care enough to exercise
what you learn? Another issue of contention is that the teachers don't dance
with the students, they prefer to observe. That bugs me because they can't
always "see" what the problem is - I would appreciate it if they would dance
with my partner if I was having problems with the feel of his leading.

So, between those two schools - I found that the attendance at the school
where there's a high mix of skill levels in the same class that the
attendance is higher and the drop out rate is virtually minimal. And
furthermore - it's much more enjoyable.

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Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:48:38 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Call to Tango...
To: runcarolinerun@hotmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu

>From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>

>There's alot of pressure on teachers wherein it's been my observation that
>the responsibility of improvement falls upon the students. If they don't
>practice, they forget what they learn and thus, not yet ready to advance to
>the next level.

..............

>Teachers can only do so much - it's up to the students to do their
>"homework" a.k.a. practice.

You are absolutely right Caroline. As a teacher, I can not make a student
progress if he or she will not practice, go to milongas, etc.

>Secondly, tango teachers don't make alot of money - if they have smaller
>classes, they make less money. They need to pay for their space, for the
>teachers, for the music equipment, for the utilities and for "assistants"
>that you suggested.

Again, you are correct. Tango dance teaching is not a a highly remunerative
occupation. And yes, there are overhead costs. Frankly, most people who
teach tango in a regular basis, do it for reasons other than to get rich
(-;. Smaller classes can be more productive and beneficial to the students
as well as for the teachers. The trick is how big is too big or too small?
I've seen teachers teach classes of over 80 students with success and others
cannot handle more than a few people. It all depends on the teachers style.
Some teachers are infinitely better one on one than in any size group class.
Yes, the monetary aspect is important to teachers, but is not the most
important part. There have been cases where students are allowed to take
classes gratis because of extenuating circumstances.

>Conversely, in my Intermediate Level II class, I feel as though I'm being
>forced to regress as I learn among students who don't make the effort to
>practice outside of class. And it's starting to piss me off a little - I
>feel like asking them why are you here if you don't care enough to exercise
>what you learn?

This can indeed be a problem. There is no easy solution though. At certain
point you might be ready for a more challenging level and must find the
teachers/classes that give you what you want and need. It's very difficult
to segregate students by level of proficiency. In many cases one would end
up with multiple classes of one, two or three students... Many teachers just
don't have the time and energy to devote that much time to teaching dance,
most tango teachers have full time occupations where they make their living.
They could not afford to teach tango otherwise.

>Another issue of contention is that the teachers don't dance with the
>students, they prefer to observe. That bugs me because they can't always
>"see" what the problem is - I would appreciate it if they would dance with
>my partner if I was having problems with the feel of his leading.

I believe you are right. One on one teaching can sometimes be only way to
instruct successfully. However, I disagree with you on one item. It is
indeed very possible to "see" problems, and indeed, "seeing" might be the
only way to determine the exact cause of certain problems. Sometimes it's
very difficult to determine what the student is doing wrong when dancing
with them. Yes, you can tell immediately that they are having a problem, but
when they are in your arms, it's not possible to observe how they might be
moving (or not moving), etc.

Manuel

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 11:09:27 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Call to Tango...
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

"Another issue of contention is that the teachers don't dance with the
students, they prefer to observe. That bugs me because they can't always
"see" what the problem is - I would appreciate it if they would dance with
my partner if I was having problems with the feel of his leading."

When a teacher observes, he can see not only your problems, but problems
with the whole group, and collects his thoughts what can be done to fix it.

I prefer teachers to observe. But, of course they should do whatever they
feel is the best.

The teacher can step in and serve as an extra partner if a group is small
and he knows what goes on between everyone well, but you are wrong to demand
it from a teacher - this is an extra service beyond what is needed for a
lesson. Want personal advice? Take a private class !

Igor.

Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:35:19 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Call to Tango...
To: tango-l@mit.edu

"Another issue of contention is that the teachers don't dance with the
students, they prefer to observe. That bugs me because they can't always
"see" what the problem is - I would appreciate it if they would dance with
my partner if I was having problems with the feel of his leading."

When a teacher observes, he can see not only your problems, but problems
with the whole group, and collects his thoughts what can be done to fix it.

Hi Igor - actually, I beg to differ. My class is pretty small. About 7
couples. My partner kept throwing me off my balance and the teachers
couldn't see why that was. It was only after I asked (not DEMANDED but asked
nicely) if the female teacher could dance with him then she was able to
understand what the problem was - it was his shoulder attempting to push me
into a back ocho. It was a detail that wasn't so obvious to the eye but very
much so to the touch.

At the other school I go to, the teachers dances with everybody - they are
very much hands on and as a result, the students are learning faster and
they drop out less because the teachers seem to actually care about their
students doing well and when the students dance with them - they get to see
and feel how tango should feel like and how enjoyable it can be.

I prefer teachers to observe. But, of course they should do whatever they
feel is the best.

The teacher can step in and serve as an extra partner if a group is small
and he knows what goes on between everyone well, but you are wrong to demand
it from a teacher - this is an extra service beyond what is needed for a
lesson. Want personal advice? Take a private class !

My class is pretty small at the school where I'm having issues with the
teachers. The teachers could certainly spare even just 30 secs to dance a
step with whichever student is truly struggling to grasp something.

Hmmm... at the same school where my teachers are not dancing with the
students, I never see them dance with students at their own milongas as well
as minimally dancing with them in class - that gives me a bad impression as
if they don't care about their students let alone want anything to do with
them. I see very few beginner/intermediate students in attendance at their
milongas. At my other school, the teachers always dances with the students
in class as well as at their milongas and they have a way of making you feel
as though you belong there. If they see you sitting, they would dance with
you and introduce you to everybody else. I see almost all their students at
their milongas.

So, I see a cause and effect relationship here. I'm now considering dropping
out of my first school and spending my hard-earned money at the second
school instead.

Private lessons? I'm a disabled single mother with no child support - I just
don't have the money for that as much as I wish I do. So, I think I will
stick with group classes in which the teachers are truly engaged with their
students.

So thanks for your suggestion - even if I couldn't use it.

Caroline

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Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:23:01 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Call to Tango...
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>

Caroline,

Everything you write, I support. Of course, it is so much better, when a
teacher stops at you, shows you what to do, tries it with your partner to
feel what is wrong with him. Of course, it all works great!

But I also know that any time you ask a teacher about a personal advice at
the lesson - you take away something from other students, as well as his own
thoughts.

A lesson is a show. And it has its timing.

I think it is much more appropriate to ask personal questions after the
lesson.

I myself took very few private lessons. But I know that you can not learn
tango at the group lessons. At the group lessons you only can make friends,
get encouraged, learn exercises, receive information for your own practice,
and get what is possible to move forward. Your real learning comes at your
personal exercise, private lessons ( the best ones ), and milongas -
practicing with you friends.

You feel it. That is why you ask teachers for the personal advice. These
seconds when he is with you - these seconds you are actually learning. But
that is not a productive way to go.

When a teacher is practicing a lot of with his students at a lesson, and
that happens all the time, especially if a group is very small, is actually
not a group lesson. It is a semi-private lesson. This is a much better
lesson, but when poor students pay the same $10 bucks as for a group
lesson - there is something extremely unfair in it !

Ok, most of the teachers do not do it for money, as Manuel put it...

Igor.

Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 15:46:59 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Call to Tango...
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Caroline,

"Everything you write, I support. Of course, it is so much better, when a
teacher stops at you, shows you what to do, tries it with your partner to
feel what is wrong with him. Of course, it all works great!

But I also know that any time you ask a teacher about a personal advice at
the lesson - you take away something from other students, as well as his own
thoughts.

I think it is much more appropriate to ask personal questions after the
lesson."

I would love to be able to ask questions after class if it weren't for the
fact that there's another class immediately afterwards and the teachers
consider themselves off the clock once the class is finished.


"When a teacher is practicing a lot of with his students at a lesson, and
that happens all the time, especially if a group is very small, is actually
not a group lesson. It is a semi-private lesson. This is a much better
lesson, but when poor students pay the same $10 bucks as for a group
lesson - there is something extremely unfair in it !"

Yeah, what's funny though is that the class in which my teachers are more
hands on with the students, there are actually far more students attending.
They somehow managed to effectively transmute their love for tango as well
as pay personal attention to whomever might have a question as well as teach
a step that everyone is able to learn. I don't know how they do it but they
do - and it's so obvious how beloved they are among their students. Maybe
the most influential aspect of their teaching is how much they want to share
their love and joy of tango and how much they want their students to
experience it as well. There's no snobbiness or aloof attitudes. It's pretty
nice. Second thing is that because they have open classes, there's a high
mix of levels in the same class so even if I don't dance with the teachers,
I do get to dance with advanced students so either way, it's still a big
bonus.

Caroline

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