3894  The canard

Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 01:08:10 +0200
From: Áron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: The canard

Interesting to hear sometimes negative comments about inauthentic teachers
and dancers who should go to learn from milongueros. This subject came up on
tango-l several times before and it keeps puzzling me.

If tango is a historical dance, then authenticity is serious subject.
However, learning from ONE milonguero active in ONE period of tango will not
really make other styles non-authentic.

If tango is a contemporary dance, then authenticity is simply not applicable
as a term if it is not a folkdance. As for it being a folkdance - if it is,
there is no problem then: only those people may dance a folkdance who are
members of that ethnicity, within the social context (form, clothing,
occasion etc.) the dance was formed. This would rule out everyone who is not
living and dancing it in a Buenos Aires milonga.

Putting theory aside: why would I be forced to MIMIC a BsAs milonguero? I
mean: Even the best Argentine dancers were known to have their own
style...they were not mimicing someone else. Learning things from them is
much different. But learning everything? That's probably not possible, but
it would be quite a shame if a good dancer could only just copy. If he is
creative somehow (introduces new elements into the system), then he is not
authentic anymore, is he?

If we accept that creativity is bad, because it leads to inauthenticity,
then we've just rendered tango dead. With copying usually the quality of
copies are weaker with each generation. Which means that authentic stuff (if
not meticulously codified) will not persist anyway. So why bother to keep
copies? I learn what I can use, and create a style which reflects ME. It is
ME who's dancing, and if I dance for fun, there is no need to be interested
in history. It is not fun to act like someone else either: that's work,
rather like a performance.

If we don't accept that creativity is bad in tango, then we can start a
completely fruitless debate on what to keep and what to change and who's
opinion to keep. IMHO If it looks like tango, smells like tango then it is
tango - you can add however, that you do a different style, which you
consider better for a list of reasons.

Cheers,
Aron

Ecsedy Áron
***********
Aron ECSEDY

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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:02:31 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: The canard

Aron wrote: Putting theory aside: why would I be forced to MIMIC a BsAs milonguero? I mean: Even the best Argentine dancers were known to have their own style...they were not mimicing someone else.....it would be quite a shame if a good dancer could only just copy.


THIS HAS TO BE ONE OF THE MOST INTELLIGENT COMMENTS I'VE READ ON HERE!
THANK YOU ARON!

You know, I get really bored with tango alot ... !!GASP!! Why? Because when I go to a milonga, if I was blindfolded all night, I couldn't tell who I was dancing with. Most of the leaders dance the same. What makes a good dancer is STYLE.... your own personal style! It doesn't matter if you dance milonguero, or salon, or fantasia...blah blah blah, whatever you dance... MAKE IT YOUR OWN!!! Often what makes a professional different from a non-professional (not always of course, definate exceptions to this rule)...is that they've developed a style that suits them.

Leaders, if you want to really dance with all the girls...quit trying to copy and compare to other dancers...learn the technique and elements, then create your own style! We like that!!

Nicole
Miami

Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:11:58 -0400
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: The canard

On 10/21/05, bailadora2000@excite.com <bailadora2000@excite.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> Leaders, if you want to really dance with all the girls...quit trying to
> copy and compare to other dancers...learn the technique and elements, then
> create your own style! We like that!!
>
> Nicole
> Miami
>
> This is easier said than done, and there's a lot to say besides. I would

attempt, hopefully, to start of a thread on this topic with a few "personal"
observations.

A personal style is the result of fusing your mind and body's response to
the music. Minds and bodies, willpowers, are different for each of us, hence
the "personalization" of dancing style. It also assumes practice: dancing
the nights away is not feasible for most of us, but working-out on Tango one
hour or so at home may be.

Essential to creation of a personal style is listening to Tango music, I
mean LISTENING! for hours each day, which may be feasible if one commutes.
Ideally Tango music elicits a fascination, a vibration within the soul.
Dance is secondary to the music, some would even say it is corruption of the
music.

One should work with old traditional material - Tipica Victor, Lomuto, Firpo
- they have clearly defined defined rhythms, a simple melody that sometimes
they sound alike. Avoid the DeCarean (Pugliese) tango music for now, avoid
doing figures in the beginning. Unless a figure is done to perfection, it
looks pathetic. I remember to this day the outstanding impression made on
me, many years ago, by a couple which was just walking, beautifully, besides
the couples that were sweatingly working on intricate figures.

In my view, Tango is a succession of stops, joined by movement. Analyze,
better said dissect, slowly, how you exit a stop, how you enter it, how you
balance in place, how you start a leg movement, how you finish it, how you
bend a knee, etc. Doing this right takes care of the movement. Listen to the
music, while watching your posture in front of a mirror, and feel the
response of the limbs and body to rhythm and melody. Don't force the body to
do what it does not come naturally for it to do, and remember that
repetition is the source of mastery \;->

Regarding Nicole injunction to stop copying - feel free to copy if you like
what you see, then adopt, modify to make it agree with your own body and
style. This is what all the "big names" in Tango did.

Apologizing for my presumptuousness,

Seth

PS Piazzola's music, the one that made his household name(!), is not really
danceable and IMHO one should not torture oneself with it. But he wrote some
exquisite tangos early in his carreer, which "redeemed" him in my eyes ;-)

Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:33:45 -0400
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: The canard

Aron wrote:

>Putting theory aside: why would I be forced to MIMIC a
>BsAs milonguero?
>.....
>it would be quite a shame if a good dancer could only just copy.

bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM wrote:

>You know, I get really bored with tango alot ...
>If I was blindfolded all night, I couldn't tell who I was dancing
>with.
>....
>Leaders, if you want to really dance with all the girls....learn the
>technique and elements, then create your own style! We like that!!

There's something even more important than style.

Leaders, leave the intelectual part of your brain along-side your street shoes. Dance with yor heart, be led by the music and your partner, and your own style with show itself.

TC




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Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 16:40:38 +0200
From: Áron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: The canard

> > This is easier said than done, and there's a lot to say besides. I

Seth's observations are quite valid. Without listening to tangos and having
tango (and dancing) in the back of your mind most of the time it is not easy
to improve and create a style of your own. (I am listening to OT Victor,
right now...which some people find perverted as I also teach several hours
tango each day and go to milongas afterwards...)

As such I'd add a few other perspectives what I found also very important
(everything is IMHO):

First never be uncritical to yourself and others, but know where you came
from and recognize what is good in others. You should create your own taste,
which means that pick the things you like and focus on them. It doesn't
matter if there are things that are considered 'essential' by others but you
don't like them. If these things are really essential, then with time you
are going to develop a need to learn those as well. Developing your own
taste means that you may not like certain things in dancers better than
yourself. The community will not always approve if you voice your critique -
however, you should know that there is a difference between not liking a
style or element and not recognizing the skills of a dancer...something
often overlooked on this forum. On the other hand you may also learn
elements or style from dancers who may not be 'recognized' as masters of the
genre. I've learnt a lot from fellow dancers.

I do use copying for recording the dancing of someone I want to learn from,
but I don't necessarily use it in my dancing at all or at least not in the
same way. When I copy, I try to copy everything I see: technical solutions,
mindset, feelings, energy - but when learning is over I dissect it and use
new information which fits in my 'system', often upgrading the system as
well to achieve a new quality I like.

Aron

Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:40:51 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: The canard

Aron wrote:
. When I copy, I try to copy everything I see: technical solutions,

> mindset, feelings, energy - but when learning is over I dissect it

Copy feelings and energy and dissect it afterwards??

Incredulous
Astrid

P.S.
You might end up with something Japanese, if you do that, I warn you...

Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 17:07:50 +0200
From: Áron ECSEDY <aron@MILONGA.HU>
Subject: Re: The canard

Dear Astrid,

> Copy feelings and energy and dissect it afterwards??

Maybe my English is not sufficient again. I tried to imply that I do try to
learn what the teacher has to say about the quality of movement and not just
the form.

> Incredulous

I had to get the dictionary for that word. What is it what you don't believe
exactly? That I am capable of tackling another person's physical-mental way
of creating movement? If he is a good teacher then I will be better doing
so, if he is not, then I am left to my own devices, which may or may not be
exact. But I try to devour as much information as I am able to. I put the
style/technique-filter after I've learnt what he wanted to teach. This way
you can be (more) sure that you don't throw out the baby with the bathing
water.

> You might end up with something Japanese, if you do that, I
> warn you...

Hehe. I don't think so. I am no big fan of Sushi.

Abrazos,
Aron