2824 In case of doubt dance a milango
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 04:32:54 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: In case of doubt dance a milango
The famous philosopher of tango Herve has spoken, as it is his usual style
he is quite clear when he says:
"behavior is articulated within a framework of meanings. What do certain
things mean to certain people. That's the key to understanding. Some
'behaviors' can be acceptable in one setting and not in another. Aggressive
pusuit nearing 'stalking' could be accepteable and a sign of love in one
setting but something else...aron you are either an idiot or an fbi
personel... "
herve
He means that same sex dancing in a gay milonga is acceptable but in other
settings the FBI may object unless the idiot of Aaron allows it.
"always dance who you are...learning ones rhythm and adjusting it to the
specific milango is all. "
herve
Here again he is quite clear, if you do not distinguish a tango from a
milonga dance a milango.
But in certain settings the FBI may object and apply the patriot act so it
is better to consult with Aaron first.
Finally he shares with us :
"I would like to thank the 'veteran' of the Tango list and my fellow church
member. I feel stronger and freer. "
"I feel so alive and so free. It's a very strange feeling. I feel like a
clothe has wiped aways all of my hang ups and fears. "
"I was given a 'vomisure' for the soul.
Peace to you all.
Herve "
He found a friend at the church and danced a Milango with him, this set him
free. It seems that his soul took a vomisure but, since this did not work he
insisted with an enema of the spirit, which acted as a cathartic that
released all his fears. At the end the FBI hang him up.
But the idiot of Aaron found him and saved his life.
The important thing to remember is: in case of doubt dance a milango. If the
FBI is watching do a valsango with the idiot of Aaron for he may save your
life.
Should your soul or spirit be constipated use a Vomisure of RoseMary or an
enema of mashed potatoes with olive oil.
Thank you Herve for your wise advise.
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:56:07 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: In case of doubt dance a milango
Hi Sergio,
Thanks for clarifying all the teachings of Don Herve ;-) ... I do have a
question for you though... I the idiot Aaaron dances a tangombe with anyone
but an FBI agent, does the patriot act apply the enema to the free and clear
malango dancers?
Also, why is Aaron suddenly an idiot? I always thought he was rather cogent
and pellucid in is explications..... Maybe I should join the FBI myself? Oh
boy, I'm really confused now. Sergio, will you save a malango for me for the
next time we meet?
Cheers,
Manuel
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:50:53 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: In case of doubt dance a milango
I know of some dancers and musicians who have already mastered these
insights. They already dance or play milango.
--Steve
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:06:08 +0000
From: herve michel <herve_michel1@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: In case of doubt dance a milango
fuck the FBI.
they parade a bunch of people with rumle clothes and a high number of
Asians.
I no longer belive in any of you. You ALL disgst me.
The FBI is trying to frame me for 'something' they are filth and al queda
should hunt them down because they are just plain dumb.
herve
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:36:47 -0700
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: In case of doubt dance a milango
In my Cd's I have some Tango-milonga
songs=Milango.One popular one is El Choclo played in
that way.So if you are on the floor when a DJ plays it
,you should alternate both rhythms in your dance.
Regards.
Daniel
--- Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> wrote:
> I know of some dancers and musicians who have
> already mastered these
> insights. They already dance or play milango.
>
> --Steve
>
=====
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
54114-773-9383
Buenos Aires-Argentina
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:48:06 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: In case of doubt dance a milango
I love the D'Agostino/Vargas recording of A Pan Y Agua. It switches from
tango to milonga toward the end and then back to tango.
I was actually thinking of dancers who have an all-purpose approach to
dancing and don't really differentiate between tango and milonga, and a
particular group of musicians who play both their tangos and milongas with
a rhythm that is best described as milango or is it tanonga?
--Steve
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:39:23 -0400
From: Antonio Cervila Junior <junior@CERVILA.COM>
Subject: Re: In case of doubt dance a milango
The little piece of music at the end of A pan y Agua is not a milonga !! It's a tango.
Antonio Cervila Junior
cervila@hotmail.com<mailto:cervila@hotmail.com>
www.cervila.com<
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Brown<mailto:Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU<mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] In case of doubt dance a milango
I love the D'Agostino/Vargas recording of A Pan Y Agua. It switches from
tango to milonga toward the end and then back to tango.
I was actually thinking of dancers who have an all-purpose approach to
dancing and don't really differentiate between tango and milonga, and a
particular group of musicians who play both their tangos and milongas with
a rhythm that is best described as milango or is it tanonga?
--Steve
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 04:37:21 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Milango
In first place I agree that Herve's contributions to the list are valuable.
It is necessary (the same as it happens with many great philosophers) to
read his notes several times in order to extract the hidden wealth of
knowledge. I am sorry he did not like my interpretation of his last note
where he mentions for the first time in this list the exotic Milango.
Angel Villoldo wrote three very famous tangos, at the beginning of the 20th
century : "El Porten`ito", El Esquinazo" and "El Choclo". These tangos the
same as most of those of that period were written in a 2X4 musical notation,
the same as milonga. Some people think that they are milongas and others
will call them "Tango-Milonga". Many tangos played by "Los Tubatango" y
"Los Muchachos de Antes" were written with the same notation. Most of them
can be danced "Canyengue" a former tango style that has many moves, figures
and steps similar to those of the milonga. Some of these primitive tangos
have a clear Spanish influence from Zarzuela (a light Spanish opera musical
form).
It was later that the musical notation was changed to the present 4X4. This
in part due to Italian influence andd together with the inclusion of the
bandoneon, changed the original happy upbeat into the more melancholic form
of actual tango.
I have always been surprised to notice that many foreigners find more
difficult to dance the milonga than the tango.
A PAN Y AGUA starts with a recitation followed by a slow tango< then another
recitation followed by a tango with a faster rhythm and then it returns to
the slower tango> It has no milonga in it.
I want to thank Herve for bringing this subject to our attention.
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 01:04:13 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Milango
My 2 cents:
What I have read is that the tango or milonga "El Esquinazo" is an example
of milonga "arrabalera" -- a faster type of milonga and much more difficult
to dance to. The original title was "Golpea que te van a abrir" (The door
will open up if you keep on knocking) -- an allusion to a sexual act.
The Choclo has been traditionally known as Canyengue music, however hardly
anybody will dance Canyengue to this music nowadays.
The term tango-milonga was given to tango music that shared part(s) from a
milonga ancestor. One example that came to mind is Florindo Sassone's last
tour to Japan. In a recording I listened to, Mr. Sassone asks the mc to tell
the Japanese audience he is going to play the tango "La Clavada" very strong
and very Milonga the way it was the original tango.
Best regards,
Bruno
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 05:57:01 -0700
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: In case of doubt dance a milango
No cabe duda, when I notice music that has an
ambivalent rhythm, I often alternate between tango and
milonga. My partner/wife and I like to have fun when
we dance. We've also done a nice tango to Santo &
Johnny's "Sleepwalk" at a swing dance.
Daniel, we enjoyed your visits to Cleveland, and I
like to see your comments here on the List.
Larry from Ohio
--- Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> In my Cd's I have some Tango-milonga
> songs=Milango.One popular one is El Choclo played in
> that way.So if you are on the floor when a DJ plays
> it
> ,you should alternate both rhythms in your dance.
> Regards.
> Daniel
> --- Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
> wrote:
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:10:51 -0700
From: Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: In case of doubt dance a milango
>
>The little piece of music at the end of A pan y Agua is not a milonga !!
>It's a tango.
>
>Antonio Cervila Junior
I concur :-) The little piece within A Pan Y Agua is a [significantly faster,
D'Arienzo-like beat] tango, not a milonga, very nicely done. I can't listen to
it now, but I can hear it in my head. A Pan Y Agua is the one that starts with
a bit of piano phrase + bandoneon, and Vargas doing an intro bit of whistling
and singing "la-la-la" and then some reciting (not singing), right?
Cheers,
Konstantin
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Stephen Brown<mailto:Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
>
> I love the D'Agostino/Vargas recording of A Pan Y Agua. It switches from
> tango to milonga toward the end and then back to tango.
>
> I was actually thinking of dancers who have an all-purpose approach to
> dancing and don't really differentiate between tango and milonga, and a
> particular group of musicians who play both their tangos and milongas with
> a rhythm that is best described as milango or is it tanonga?
>
> --Steve
>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:29:35 -0700
From: Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: Milango
Sergio wrote:
>
>Angel Villoldo wrote three very famous tangos, at the beginning of the 20th
>century : "El Porten`ito", El Esquinazo" and "El Choclo". These tangos the
>same as most of those of that period were written in a 2X4 musical notation,
>the same as milonga. Some people think that they are milongas and others
>will call them "Tango-Milonga". Many tangos played by "Los Tubatango" y
>"Los Muchachos de Antes" were written with the same notation. Most of them
>can be danced "Canyengue" a former tango style that has many moves, figures
>and steps similar to those of the milonga. Some of these primitive tangos
>have a clear Spanish influence from Zarzuela (a light Spanish opera musical
>form).
>
>It was later that the musical notation was changed to the present 4X4. This
>in part due to Italian influence andd together with the inclusion of the
>bandoneon, changed the original happy upbeat into the more melancholic form
>of actual tango.
I personally find it misleading to point to a musical notation to identify a
tango versus milonga. It doesn't really work in this case (although obviously
it does work for vals - it is quite enough to say that a tango piece is
written in 3/4 to deduce that it is a vals).
Instead, I think it is all about how the piece sounds, which points to the
main identifying factors being the particular interpretation by the orchestra,
the beat pattern/beat accents, how fast the piece is played.
I will follow with parts from a post from an year ago, with some updates from
feedback I got, as it ties in with this.
If you listen to Banda Municipal de la Ciudad de Buenos Aires from 1908, it is
interesting to hear tangos played, as they were, in the high 70s BPM
(beats-per-minute) - almost like the slow milongas of Canaro except still
slower just a little bit (Canaro's are low 80s). I would call these
"tango-milonga". And if you listen to Firpo's tango intepretations many have
the same ambiguous feel of a tango/milonga hybrid.
I guess then you see how what we identify now as a milonga is largely a (1)
sped-up version of a tango-milonga with (2) characteristic milonga beat
accents. And a tango is largely a slowed-down tango-milonga (D'Arienzo) or a
slowed-down tango-milonga with different tango beat accents (Di
Sarli/Pugliese).
However to clearly hear a composition played as a milonga you need both (1) and
(2) changes from above, it seems.
Here are my examples of one composition played as a clear tango and a clear
milonga by different interpreters:
El Apache Argentino, as
a tango by Francini-Pontier,
a milonga by Racciatti.
El Cabure, as
a tango by Di Sarli,
a milonga by Racciatti.
El Otario, as
a tango by Canaro,
a milonga by De Angelis.
El Portenito, as
a tango by D'Arienzo or Orquesta Tpica Victor,
a milonga by D'Agostino.
In contrast, El Lloron by Canaro or Firpo is a tango-milonga, in that it is a
really fast tango rhythm without milonga beat accents. Still, it is as fast
as Canaro's slow milongas:
El Lloron, as
a tango by Cambareri,
a tango-milonga by Canaro or Firpo.
None of this has anything to do with musical notation.
So to go back to your words, Sergio, for me all early tangos I've heard seem
to have a tango-milonga feel, like being in an embryonic stage from which the
two types of tango and the milonga would emerge in the 1930s.
Anyway, I am just doodling here looking to see if such a framework applies. If
you find contradicting examples that do not fit the above please let me know.
Best regards,
Konstantin
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:39:37 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: In case of doubt dance a milango
Antonio Cervila Junior wrote:
>The little piece of music at the end of A pan y Agua is not a milonga !!
It's a tango.
Serigo wrote:
A PAN Y AGUA ... has no milonga in it.
I guess I have identified myself as fully milango qualified. :-)
Somewhat chagrined, but better informed,
Steve
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:24:53 -0700
From: Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi666@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Milango
I think Konstantin is right in all of this. I just want to point out that
many of the early tangos, in addition to the 2/4 time signature, were
written and played with the characteristic milonga rhythm and feel.
What we call the milonga rhythm or beat is: dotted 8th, 16th, 8th, 8th in a
measure of 2/4 time. You can see this if you go to todotango.com and look
at the piano scores (partituras) for milongas such as Mano Brava, Milonga
Sentimental, or about any milonga you're familiar with. (The piano left
hand, the bass notes, is what gives the music its rhythmic feel - that's the
lower of the two staves in each group of two.)
Now compare the with the left hand rhythms for tangos such as El Choclo, Don
Juan, La Morocha, etc. and you'll see that the rhythms are the same. I
don't think I've ever heard Don Juan played with a rhythmic feel anything
like this. But El Choclo is often played very much with a milonga feel.
And if you can listen to the Juan Maglio CD "El Bandoneon de Pacho" from
1912-1913, you'll hear that the guitar, the primary rhythm instrument, is
playing the milonga rhythm throughout almost all of every tango. If you
don't have access to the CD you can hear three of those pieces - El Cabure,
Independencia, and La Gaucha Manuela on the Todotango site. A bunch of
Canaro tangos from the early period that are fast and have a lot of the
milonga feel are also fairly accessable (but I can't tell you where to find
them).
I guess I bored the hell out of anyone who may have read thru this whole
post and isn't really interested in the music, but I thought the information
was interesting when I learned it.
"Ricardo"
PS: I'm glad to see that Daniel Lapadula didn't leave the list.
Konstantin wrote:
>........
>I guess then you see how what we identify now as a milonga is largely a (1)
>sped-up version of a tango-milonga with (2) characteristic milonga beat
>accents.
>........
>So to go back to your words, Sergio, for me all early tangos I've heard
>seem
>to have a tango-milonga feel, like being in an embryonic stage from which
>the
>two types of tango and the milonga would emerge in the 1930s.
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:29:57 -0700
From: Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: Milango
"Ricardo" wrote:
>
>I think Konstantin is right in all of this. I just want to point out that
>many of the early tangos, in addition to the 2/4 time signature, were
>written and played with the characteristic milonga rhythm and feel.
>
>What we call the milonga rhythm or beat is: dotted 8th, 16th, 8th, 8th in a
>measure of 2/4 time. You can see this if you go to todotango.com and look
>at the piano scores (partituras) for milongas such as Mano Brava, Milonga
>Sentimental, or about any milonga you're familiar with. (The piano left
>hand, the bass notes, is what gives the music its rhythmic feel - that's the
>lower of the two staves in each group of two.)
>
>Now compare the with the left hand rhythms for tangos such as El Choclo, Don
>Juan, La Morocha, etc. and you'll see that the rhythms are the same. I
>don't think I've ever heard Don Juan played with a rhythmic feel anything
>like this. But El Choclo is often played very much with a milonga feel.
Very interesting. However I would like to point out that on the partituras
there is a small but significant difference in the way the left piano hand is
written. Yes it is the milonga rhythm - dotted 8th, 16th, 8th, 8th - on many
old tangos, including some I have never heard interpreted that way. However
from what I can see the 16th on tangos has a smaller rhythmic weight as an
accent than in milongas' scores.
Notice how in most tangos the 16th is a single note surrounded by a double
and/or triple note combination for the neighbouring 8ths. In contrast, in
milonga scores, the 16th is emphasized in some way:
* in some it is with the same weight (all 8ths and 16ths as single
notes as in "Milonga del 900")
* or has more weight than the neighbours ("Silueta Portena" has
3-note combinations at 16th against 2 at 8th in many places),
* or the 16th comes with the previous doted 8th missing because the
8th was legato-ed from the last 8th of the previous bar.
Of course the left hand piano is not the only rhythm driver when you have
orquestra with contrabajo/tuba, but nevertheless.. I see differences in accent
weights that underplay the 16th in tango scores but emphasize it in milonga
scores.
Yet it is true Firpo's left-hand piano often plays exactly like the scores
say, now that I think about it, so it is almost a milonga, just a bit slower,
and the 16th not as highlighted.
Best regards,
Konstantin
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:09:05 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Milango
Ricardo Tanturi wrote:
<snipped>
> I guess I bored the hell out of anyone who may have read thru this whole
> post and isn't really interested in the music, but I thought the
> information
> was interesting when I learned it.
What would tango be without at least an intuitive understanding of its
rhythmic
structure? For those of use who didn't grow up listening to tango, some
basic
music theory can only help. Keep it up.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:40:04 -0700
From: Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Milango
Glad to see that sensible discussions of the music are starting to become
commonplace in Tango-L. Demographics will eventually do the rest.
The obs about the prominence given to the 16th (rhythmically "passing") note
in the pre-1920 (old guard) tango, a.k.a., an Argentine version of the
Spanish-to-Cuba-and-back habanera, vs the post-1930 milonga portenna is very
perceptive, and very important. It is also in my view, based thus far on what
I consider insufficient evidence for a quasi-permanent conviction, one aspect
of the two most obvious differences between the habanera (or Spanish tango)
and almost all "modern" milongas -- the ones we hear all the time in dances.
One difference I see is that the modern milonga's basic pulse is the binary
one-two, um-pa, both well marked, with the {pan, cafe'-con-} super-imposed.
In this pattern, the 16th note ("ca") and the middle 8th ("con") are not much
less prominent than the binary beats, and are about equal among themselves.
The "rhythmic melody" is a four-note one.
In the habanera (or Spanish tango) and the Argentinean Old Guard, the basic
pulse is more like two-and-one-hold-, all three notes well marked, though, of
course, not equal. (A touch of Africa? Possibly ...) The "rhythmic melody" is
a three note one, with the 16th a most enchanting, very essential, but weakly
accented "passing" note.
The other difference, closely related, is that, typically, the milonga
portenna (which is by all appearances another offspring of the habanera) has
a characteristic, rather "intrusive", broken chord ostinato base line,
exactly on the cafe-con-pan rhythmic matrix; while the old habanera genres as
a rule do not have it. (This reminds me of the difference between the city
smart bolero and the bi'en campesina Batchata.) This contributes to making
the 16th note something like a structural grace note -- while still
absolutely essential to the "feel" of the habanera and the old Argentinean
tango. I also believe that two-and-one has a little to do with the late
(circa 1920) sudden appearance of the New Guard's VERY DIFFERENT rhythmic
plan. But that is a much larger fish to fry.
Note the absent mention of any time signature issues. They are essentially
irrelevant. The above structures can be represented in the traditional 2/4,
or in any other 2/ or 4/ time signature.
Cheers,
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:04:36 -0700
From: Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Milango
Just to clarify. I was (for a purpose) schematic rather than detailed in the
considerations about the rhythmic plans for the habanera / old Argentinean
tango versus "modern" milonga.
In this regard I am not implying that the broken chord base line ostinato was
[almost] always absent in the old times. Actually I do not know. Also, I
cannot at the moment verify such details in any way. But, trying to recall
the tangos by orchestras such as Arolas's, Pacho's, Berto's, etc in the
19-teens, I believe the "modern" milonga baseline was not part of the deal.
Ready to stand corrected.
Cheers,
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:23:43 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Milango
Lima,
I'm haveing a hard time understanding the relationship between the "pan,
cafe-con" and the "um-pa". Can you point at some resources that would
allow me to better understand?
Also, I've heard mention of the "habanero" before, but as I was already
in a state of overwhelm from all the tango information I had absorbed
that day, all I only remember it as a musical precursor of tango. I've
googled for "habanero" and despite various modifications of the basic
search terms, I can only find pages about salsa of one type or another,
which I neither eat nor dance. Where can an interested person learn more?
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:40:23 -0700
From: Jay Jenkins <jayjenkins888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Milango
Let's look at the pattern again:
.1 & 2 & 1 & 2 & 1
Pa'n ca fe' con pa'n ca fe' con pa'n etc
.um pa um pa um
At this time I wonder if I could have Cafe' con medias lunas (croissant's) instead of pan con cafe'.
I wonder if "incoherent" isn't more interesting than "nonsense". What do you think?
In case of doubt I dance a milango, I do not like to count.
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:02:20 -0700
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Milango
Dear listeros_: I am really impress in how much
knowledge is on this topic and comments,perhaps by
Konstantin,Ricardo,Sergio and others...
It really helps!
As a new topic,in the Porteqo slang we used
tango/milonga in a very (lets say)confused way.
We call the tango places :Milonga (?)no claw why.
When we refer on tangoing we say:vamos a
milonguear(lets go tango ).The tango dancer is :a
Milonguero as well as a Tanguero,which is non as
common .female the same way.
I would like to heard your comments on this.
Best regards.
Daniel Lapadula
=====
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
_______________________________
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:19:48 -0700
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Milango
Jay:probably and if I am not wrong ,the habanera step
is performed by the female or both.It start cross
forward open,cross forward open and cross in any
direction.
Today we could call that ocho cortado in both sides of
the man.
Daniel
--- Jay Jenkins <jayjenkins888@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Let's look at the pattern again:
>
> .1 & 2 & 1 & 2
> & 1
> Pa'n ca fe' con pa'n ca fe'
> con pa'n etc
> .um pa um pa
> um
>
>
> At this time I wonder if I could have Cafe' con
> medias lunas (croissant's) instead of pan con cafe'.
>
> I wonder if "incoherent" isn't more interesting than
> "nonsense". What do you think?
>
> In case of doubt I dance a milango, I do not like to
> count.
>
>
>
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
=====
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:14:49 -0400
From: John Gleeson <john.gleeson@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Milango
Daniel writes:
> We call the tango places :Milonga (?)no claw (clue?) why.
Could it have an historical significance? Here, people might
say "we are going to a Square Dance" (i.e.where Square Dances
are danced. Or "we are going to a Contra Dance" (i.e. where
Contra Dances are danced).
So, could folks in the earlier days in BsAs have said "we are
going to a Milonga" bacuse that's where Milongas were
danced?
Just a thought.
John G.
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:16:01 -0700
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Milango
Sorry John,my claw was the one that wrote clue wrong..
D.
--- John Gleeson <john.gleeson@comcast.net> wrote:
> Daniel writes:
>
> > We call the tango places :Milonga (?)no claw
> (clue?) why.
>
> Could it have an historical significance? Here,
> people might
> say "we are going to a Square Dance" (i.e.where
> Square Dances
> are danced. Or "we are going to a Contra Dance"
> (i.e. where
> Contra Dances are danced).
>
> So, could folks in the earlier days in BsAs have
> said "we are
> going to a Milonga" bacuse that's where Milongas
> were
> danced?
>
> Just a thought.
>
> John G.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=====
Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:17:06 -0700
From: Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: Milango
Carlos Lima wrote:
>In the habanera (or Spanish tango) and the Argentinean Old Guard, the basic
>pulse is more like two-and-one-hold-, all three notes well marked, though, of
>course, not equal. (A touch of Africa? Possibly ...) The "rhythmic melody" is
>a three note one, with the 16th a most enchanting, very essential, but weakly
>accented "passing" note.
Could you indicate where the "two-and-one-hold-" is in relation to this:
1 & 2 & 1 & 2 & 1
Pa'n ca fe' con pa'n ca fe' con pa'n etc
um pa um pa um
as I am not sure where it goes?
>
>The other difference, closely related, is that, typically, the milonga
>portenna (which is by all appearances another offspring of the habanera) has
>a characteristic, rather "intrusive", broken chord ostinato base line,
>exactly on the cafe-con-pan rhythmic matrix; while the old habanera genres as
Ah yes, you are right I think. I just realized that the wonderfully playful
"Mozo Guapo" milonga as interpreted by the guitarist Juanjo Dominguez starts
with exactly that - the broken-chord base line - literally the first few bars
are just that. I don't know what key it is in, but the intervals are like
this: If one assumes that we start from C2 (the number is just that I can
indicate e.g. G1 as being the "G" in the lower octave that preceeds C2) then
it goes
1 & 2 & 1 & 2 & 1
Pa'n ca fe' con pa'n ca fe' con pa'n etc
C2 Eb2 G2 G1 C2 Eb2 G2 G1 ....
so it goes up the minor chord on pan-ca-fe', then hits an octave lower on
"con" to start climbing back up the chord in the next bar.
>a rule do not have it. (This reminds me of the difference between the city
>smart bolero and the bi'en campesina Batchata.) This contributes to making
>the 16th note something like a structural grace note -- while still
>absolutely essential to the "feel" of the habanera and the old Argentinean
>tango. I also believe that two-and-one has a little to do with the late
>(circa 1920) sudden appearance of the New Guard's VERY DIFFERENT rhythmic
>plan. But that is a much larger fish to fry.
What about this distressing (to me) rhythm of "tango" that has persisted in
the movies and/or in Europe (?) and for many people who do not dance might be
their idea of argentine tango?
I am referring to the following:
8th 8th 8th 16th 16th 8th 8th 8th 16th-16th
and usually garnished with a drum (the horror!) accentuating the two 16th.
You might have encountered La Cumparsita played like this (not on any
argentine tango CD). Perhaps you've heard it - the main theme of the
composition played like this (in 4/8 or 2/4):
8th & 8th & 8th & 16th 16th 8th & 8th & 8th & 16th 16th
C2 - Bb2 - G2 - E2 - - C2 Db2 C2 B1 - C2 -
and so on.
Where does this beat/accent pattern come from? And where does this whole
corruption of tango with this changed beat pattern and drums come from? My
impression is that it might have something to do with Valentino and Holywood
in the 1920s and the red rose between the teeth and ballroom tango.
Best regards,
Konstantin
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 17:38:28 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: Milango
Carlos Lima wrote:
>In the habanera (or Spanish tango) and the Argentinean Old Guard, the
basic pulse is more like two-and-one-hold-, all three notes well marked,
though, of course, not equal. (A touch of Africa? Possibly ...) The
"rhythmic melody" is a three note one, with the 16th a most enchanting, very
essential, but weakly accented "passing" note.<
I have read that the Habanera in Argentina disappeared in 1910. Also, there
were two types of Habanera one for Salon, and the second type for the poor.
The one for Salon was simple and monotonic, and the one for the popular
masses was played with elements shared from the Milonga and Tango --
unexpected changes, pauses, weak syncopations, etc. Musicians who played by
ear and for the masses could have had a repertoire of Milonga, Habanera, and
Tango all with the same rhythm but with different tempos, and they would
have adjusted their interpretation as they watched dancers respond to the
music.
Best regards,
Bruno
