1943  Castilian - No Tango- long

Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2003 13:58:04 -0500
From: Sergio <cachafaz@ADELPHIA.NET>
Subject: Castilian - No Tango- long

Kate says:

"Hola, Sergio"

"You may or may not be surprised to learn that the DRAE
(the Diccionario de la Real Academia Espan~ola) was
boycotted in many American Universities (by both
US-born and Latin American-born professors) until
1992."

I am not surprised. The situation for teachers of foreign languages in North
America is at times very difficult and as competitive as that of tango
teachers. This is in great part due to lack of interest on the part of the
students. Teachers try to make their classes as interesting as possible. I
am asked at times to speak about Argentina and to do tango demonstrations.
Some will sing "La Cucaracha" if necessary and I even met an Argentinean
Professor of Castilian from the University of Toronto that taught the
language as it is spoken in Argentina (pronunciation, voceo, etc.) the
university did not object because his class was full of students but the
other professors did.

The situation naturally is totally different in the Latin American
countries. In high school we had three years of Castilian (three hours per
week), one year of Spanish literature (two hours per week) and one year of
Argentinean and Latin American literature (two hours per week). We were
encouraged to use any dictionary even the ones from other European countries
such as Larouse from France) but we all new that in case of doubt the DRAE
had the last word.

Kate also says:

"Why until 1992? Because in the edition prepared for
the 500th anniversary of the Columbus voyage, the RAE
finally included a significant number of Spanish
American terms. The 1992 and 2001 editions of the DREA
are greatly improved over past editions.

You certainly are very well informed and know a lot about the Castilian
language. What you say is true but the DREA started to include
"Americanismos" as early as 1871 date when the first Latin American academy
of letters was created. The number of americanismos included has increased
with each new edition till the culmination of the 1992 one, that list over
28,000 items originated in those areas. If I remember well about 6000 are
from Argentina alone.

Kate continues:

"It's a great exageration, IMHO, to say that the RAE's
"dictionary includes any word that is used in any
Castilian [sic] speaking country." In some cases,
regional definitions are not listed under word
entries; in other cases, regionalisms are missing
altogether. And of course, there are the inevitable
errors. For ejemple, in Mexico the standard spelling
of the word for peanut is "cacahuAte", though the DRAE
prefers the spelling "cacahuEte"."

I was using "any word used" in reference to Castilian and not to any other
language spoken in those countries (we were talking exclusively about that
language). The dictionary may not include "all the slang words" of every
country, neither certain "transient" regional use of a word or words
belonging to other languages (Indian or European).

Slang by definition means:
A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and playful speech, made up
typically of short-lived coinages and figures of speech that are
deliberately used in place of standard terms for added raciness, humor,
irreverence, or other effect.
Language peculiar to a group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang.

I have to clarify that very few Argentineans know lunfardo, most of us know
a few words frequently used but if we have to understand the lyrics of
certain tangos we have to use the "Lunfardo Dictionary".

When it comes to grammatical or orthographic uses, again all the national
academies cooperate with the Spanish one to unify the language. The correct
use is therefore the one listed in the DRAE.

Local academies have many services: one is to clarify certain matters and
allow variations.

Ex. (to use a well known word) Acne: a skin eruption. It is listed as
feminine by the DRAE but in Argentina it is most commonly used as masculine.
The problem here shows up only and if an adjective is used as due to the
fact that it is a word that begins with "A" the article is always masculine.
El acne es feo vs. El acne es fea. The same as "El azucar es blanca" (sugar
is white).

In summary the correct orthography for peanut is Cacahuete. The Mexican
academy may allow the use Cacahuate as an alternative. It is interesting
that diccionario.com lists "Cacahuatero" Mexico : person that sells
cacahuetes. Larouse lists : Cacahuate=cacahuete or mani it does not even say
"Mexico".

In summary: it is possible to travel all over the Spanish speaking world
without any problems in communication. We all speak Castilian, few
illiterate people in some countries may only speak their own indigenous
language. The more educated the person is the more uniforme the language is.
When traveling abroad we all enjoy learning a few new words.

I only encountered problems in very few occasions. Once in Peru, going to
Machu Pichu the train stopped in the middle of nowhere the children that
came to sell crafts only spoke "Quechua" an Indian language (only one Jose
spoke Castilian as well).

In Catalonia (an area of Spain) some elderly people speak only in
Catalonian.

In Brazil most students take Spanish as their second language along with
English. In Argentina Portuguese(the Brazilian language) is now taught in
high school along with the other languages.

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 17:40:23 -0800
From: Catrina Imports <catrinaimports@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Castilian - No Tango- long

Sergio,

Your experience in Spanish classrooms in the US has
not given you a very clear picture of the teaching of
Spanish here.

> I am not surprised. The situation for
> teachers of foreign languages in North
> America is at times very difficult and
> as competitive as that of tango teachers.

While the competition to get a job in certain
unversities has always been stiff, at the primary and
secondary levels, there is a shortage of Spanish
teachers in most areas. They demand cannot keep up w/
the supply.

One of the problems created by this lack of qualified
teachers has been the use of unqualified individuals
as teachers, many of them native speakers. Being a
native speaker of a language is not that same as being
an educated native speaker. And it certainly isn't the
same as being a trained instructor.

There are many native speakers who cannot come close
to passing the tests given to undergrads, let alone
the exams required of grad students in Spanish. I know
because I've taught Spanish to native speakers.

> This is in great part due to lack of
> interest on the part of the students.

On the contrary, Spanish is by far the most popular
foreign language in the US.

A lack of interest in the classroom is the fault of
the parents and the teachers, however that can be said
of other classes such as biology and history. In fact,
Spanish classes are often the most popular and most
fun for students because of the culture.

> I even met an Argentinean Professor
> of Castilian from the University of
> Toronto that taught the language as
> it is spoken in Argentina
> (pronunciation, voceo, etc.) the
> university did not object because
> his class was full of students but
> the other professors did.

I've taught both Mexican and Argentinean Spanish and
I've had grad assistants from various countries who
were allowed to use their regional versions of Spanish
in the classroom.

In general, non-native professors teach a more
"neutral" Spanish while native professors are allowed
to teach in their "own" Spanish (as long as they cover
the required information).

> You certainly are very well informed
> and know a lot about the Castilian
> language.

If this was meant as a compliment, then thank you.
However, I can't help but suspect it may be more of a
left-handed compliment. Universities expect their
professors to know what they're talking about. They're
are sort picky that way.


Since you are obviously not a linguist and this is a
tango list, I'll not bore you and the others with
explanations of what's "correct" language and the real
role of the Academies. I'm sure the others in the list
would like to get back to talking tango.

Kate





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