1937  Castilian Vs Spanish

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:35:08 -0300
From: Alberto Gesualdi <clambat2001@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Castilian Vs Spanish

Language spoken in Argentina

It is funny. I just have a look now to our Constitution of Argentina, and .... it doesn t say which is the official language ot the country ......

The language that is included into the education programs is "castilian", at least that is the name of the subject.

The language that is spoken actually, is this "castilian" with several foreign words included, due to the inmigration of the first part of XX century. Mainly italian words , some french words . A lot of english words also , due to the foreign brands and imported goods.

Lunfardo ..... it is not widely spoken . This was a dialect from the beginning of the XX century, made with local language and the foreign words . It was used also as jargon or encoded language, to communicate between "members" of marginal groups such as prisoners in jails, whores and pimps , robbers .

The use of "che" instead of "tu" is still widely adopted. Concerning the tango scripts, they are from the 304s and 404s mainly, so the language used , the lunfardo references and so on , are out of the actual context.

Maybe contemporary tango writers such as Eladia Blazquez, Horacio Ferrer , Chico Novarro , use a language more related to "modern" times.

However their scripts are from the 70s , and since then, there have been a huge change in habits, inmigrants and social situation.

There were no inmigrants from SE Asia until the 80s. Now there are corean people & chinese as main asiatic influence . There is a tango " Apurate que cierra el coreano/ Hurry, the corean is closing " from the tango group Los cosos de al lao ,. that refers to the grocery shops owned by corean people , that are now a part of the everyday life . This shops close later than native shops ,so the last chance to buy something at a grocery is with the corean shops, the last shops to close.

There is another tango , "La patota/The small hord" from the tango group La Chicana , that describes a group of violent teenagers (more or less like the ones of the movie Clockwork Orange from Stanley Kubrik) .The language used could be considered more actual to what is spoken actually , including some bad words ,like the final comment " la puta que lo pario/ damn with the bitch " , which is , from my very personal point of view , a bit rude, and out of context with a tango script.

It is a bit long to comment what happens with tango scripts and language actually. There are no "new" scripts massively being written. Young artists related to Tango, are in a search of style that has not concluded yet.

There is a pianist, Sonia Possetti, that plays in a duet with violonist Damian Bolotin. They have produced two CDs of traditional tangos. And now Sonia presented his new CD , with a quintet , and all the tango lyrics composed by herself. This could be the "news of the 2003" tango local composers . The CD name is "Mano de obra/work labour force" .

Also another violinist, Erica Di Salvo, who plays at the Orchestra Juan de Dios Filiberto with Maestro Atilio Stampone, has her own orchestra "El desquite" and they have a CD with some tangos brand new.

*-*
Astrid Sato asked if the "s" sound was swallowed . This is not common in Buenos Aires, but usual at another provinces like Santa Fe and Santiago del Estero.
There is a province, Cordoba, that have their own dialect, very funny , with plenty of local words , and a special "song" of the voice when talking. It is said that the city of Cordoba was founded by andalusian soldiers from Spain, that brought their witty humour and sound of language. I have a "basic cordobese dictionary" very funny , but is too long for a posting :):)
Cordobese people... they are very special , his good humour is very special. Maybe a balance for the usual somber aspect of people of Buenos Aires :):)


warm regards
alberto gesualdi
buenos aires






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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 07:39:43 -0800
From: Catrina Imports <catrinaimports@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Castilian Vs Spanish

Hola, Alberto.

>
> The language that is spoken actually, is this
> "castilian" with several foreign words included, due
> to the inmigration of the first part of XX century.
> Mainly italian words , some french words . A lot of
> english words also , due to the foreign brands and
> imported goods.

Not to mention the barbarismos in "standard Spanish".
As you know, a significant number of words in Spanish
come from Arabic (almohada, algebra, etc). There are
also many terms borrowed from French and English. And
many words for foods and animals native to the
Americas come from indigenous languages, like the word
"chocolate".

Each country in Latin America has incorporated
indigenious words into its local version of Spanish.
For example, in Mexico, a "mani" (peanut) is a
"cacahuate" and a "pavo" (turkey) is a "guajolote". In
Paraguay, many words come from the Guarani language
such as "n~anduti" (a type of cloth). In Argentina,
some of the vocabulary has been borrowed from
indigenous languages in that region, such as the word
"gaucho", which probably comes from the Quechua word
"uajcha" (a poor person or orphan).

As you said, immigrants have also contributed to
regional versions of Spanish, as has geographical
proximity. Along the Uruguay-Brazil border a mixture
of Spanish and Portuguese, called Portuqol, has
developed.

> Cordobese people... they are very special , his good
> humour is very special. Maybe a balance for the
> usual somber aspect of people of Buenos Aires :):)

On this, I have to disagree. I find the porten~os have
an excellent sense of humor -- dark, self-deprecating
and truely wonderful.

Personally, I cannot stand to hear the Cordoban
accent. Pero sobre gustos...

saludos,
Kate


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Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 10:25:19 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango as language [Was: Castilian Vs Spanish]

Kate wrote:

>Each country in Latin America has incorporated
>indigenious words into its local version of Spanish.

If we look at tango as a language for self expression, it would be
interesting to think about parallels in tango to these regionalisms in
language. For instance, we know the ballroom styles of tango evolved from
the same root dance as Argentine tango. We have also been told that the
way tango was danced during the golden age varied considerably by
neighborhood. There remain differences in the way tango is danced today,
which some people have identified as different styles.

In thinking about the differences in the way that tango was danced by
neighborhood, I wonder to what extent local conditions and social values
affected the different ways that the dance evolved. For instance, we have
some indications that Tango Liso developed as a more refined way of
dancing tango. As we have been told, this style was more upright, elegant
and stripped of many of the movements found in canyengue and orillero that
didn't strictly stay in the line of dance. This way of dancing better
expressed the values and conditions in the neighborhoods (which were a bit
more upscale) than orillero or canyengue. It seems to have gradually
evolved into salon tango as a wider variety of movements were introduced,
but the style still maintained elegance and a strict observance of the
line of dance.

What is now called the milonguero or club style tango may have evolved in
the Clubs de Barrio during the era in which tango was forced out of public
sight by a repressive regime. Danced in small spaces, the milonguero
style has some of the chracteristics of the earlier salon in that dancers
are expected to maintain the line of dance and dance compactly, but the
style has a stronger rhythmic pulse more reminiscent of the canyengue and
orillero styles, and perhaps more befitting people who are living a
milonguero lifestyle, that is a marginal, almost outlaw existence.

During the revival of tango in the 1980s, these somewhat different ways of
dancing were still to be found in different neighborhoods in Buenos Aires.
See Christine Denniston's webpage <https://www.history-of-tango.com/> or
some of Barbar Garvey's commentaries in the Tango-L archive.

I wonder to what extent the differences between the smoother salon (not
fantasia) styles and the more rhythmic milonguero and club styles reflect
the separation of tango liso from canyengue in the 1920s, and to what
extent they represent the introduction of new ideas into what had been
salon tango during the era where tango was hidden.

I wonder to what extent the way we choose to dance expresses who we are,
and to what extent it simply is shaped by the vocabulary we have learned.

With best regards,
Steve

Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/