4137 Changing the embrace
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:48:00 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Changing the embrace
"Sergio;
My followers want Salon Style which at least in New York seems to be
synonymous with close embrace that opens very slightly in a V and shifts to
accommodate the steps (but the embrace is still sacred in some kind of way
which
nobody has yet to explain to me when it is and isn't sacrificed for a
fancier
move). They say (ie the women I practice with) they are worried about the
line
their backward reaching leg makes when it straightens out and the heel comes
down. If that tells you what style we are dancing I'll be impressed."
Burleigh
Dear Burleigh the style you dance is "Salon Close embrace " .
This style has two embraces Open and Closed. You may dance in open or
closed embrace all the time.
Or else you may dance in close embrace at times (when walking for instance)
and then relax the hold and open the embrace to execute figures or turns
that require room between the two partners; once the figure or turn are
completed you may return to close embrace or remain in open.
You can have the same feeling (IMO) dancing open or close embrace but it
happens that when you are dancing in close embrace and you develop a strong
rapport with your partner, if you open the embrace, this could feel to some
women as if you are awaking her from a beautiful dream.
It would feel here as if you are sacrificing that beautiful feeling she or
both were having to execute some figure that you have in mind and that the
woman might not care to do at that moment.
The use of type of embrace in salon Tango is determined by your preference,
your partners preference, the ambiance, the room available, the type of
music, the time of the day, your feelings at the moment, etc.
You can start dancing in open embrace, "feel the woman" to see what you can
do, execute a few nice moves or turns and then proceed to dance in close
embrace to the end (for instance).
Once you know what her preference is then try to adjust your embrace to her
desires.
I find your questions very stimulating for pondering and reasoning, thank
you.
Sergio.
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 16:42:09 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Dear Sergio:
Great question from Burleigh in New York. Wonderful
answer from Sergio. It explains beautifully why close
embrace all the time does not work. It limits the
possibilities. I find that the music usually guides
the dance and tells both the man and the woman when
the embrace will open or close. I always look for the
musicians when I dance tango. They know how to follow
the music, and are rarely "surprised"...lol.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:
> "Sergio;
> My followers want Salon Style which at least in
> New York seems to be
> synonymous with close embrace that opens very
> slightly in a V and shifts to
> accommodate the steps (but the embrace is still
> sacred in some kind of way
> which
> nobody has yet to explain to me when it is and isn't
> sacrificed for a
> fancier
> move). They say (ie the women I practice with) they
> are worried about the
> line
> their backward reaching leg makes when it
> straightens out and the heel comes
> down. If that tells you what style we are dancing
> I'll be impressed."
> Burleigh
>
> Dear Burleigh the style you dance is "Salon Close
> embrace " .
>
> This style has two embraces Open and Closed. You
> may dance in open or
> closed embrace all the time.
> Or else you may dance in close embrace at times
> (when walking for instance)
> and then relax the hold and open the embrace to
> execute figures or turns
> that require room between the two partners; once
> the figure or turn are
> completed you may return to close embrace or remain
> in open.
>
> You can have the same feeling (IMO) dancing open or
> close embrace but it
> happens that when you are dancing in close embrace
> and you develop a strong
> rapport with your partner, if you open the embrace,
> this could feel to some
> women as if you are awaking her from a beautiful
> dream.
>
> It would feel here as if you are sacrificing that
> beautiful feeling she or
> both were having to execute some figure that you
> have in mind and that the
> woman might not care to do at that moment.
>
> The use of type of embrace in salon Tango is
> determined by your preference,
> your partners preference, the ambiance, the room
> available, the type of
> music, the time of the day, your feelings at the
> moment, etc.
>
> You can start dancing in open embrace, "feel the
> woman" to see what you can
> do, execute a few nice moves or turns and then
> proceed to dance in close
> embrace to the end (for instance).
>
> Once you know what her preference is then try to
> adjust your embrace to her
> desires.
>
> I find your questions very stimulating for pondering
> and reasoning, thank
> you.
>
> Sergio.
>
>
> Download today - it's FREE!
>
>
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> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:08:24 -0700
From: Evan Wallace <evan@TANGOING.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 Derik Rawson wrote:
"Great question from Burleigh in New York. Wonderful
answer from Sergio. It explains beautifully why close
embrace all the time does not work. It limits the
possibilities. I find that the music usually guides
the dance and tells both the man and the woman when
the embrace will open or close... "
Derik:
I suspect that there are hundreds of dancers here in Buenos Aires who are
going to be very surprised to suddenly find out that their style of dance
does not "work" because they never open their embrace.
I've spent the last couple of weeks studying Tete's dancing in the milongas,
for example, and I can tell you that his dancing most assuredly works, in
spite of the fact that he never opens his embrace (or, in his case, because
he never opens the embrace). The playfulness, the musicality, the
inventiveness of movements and range of velocities, moods, and intentions is
staggering, and every bit the equal of most Nuevo dancers in these measures.
I specifically asked Tete two nights ago, partially in response to this
ongoing thread, if he ever opened his embrace simply to accomplish some
particular movement. He made a most unpleasant face and stated emphatically
that he would never do that. So is Tete's dance broken, because he does not
avail himself of every possibility between two bodies? What advice would you
give to Tete (and hundreds of other dancers who also never open their
embrace) so that they can fix their dancing? Which possibilities in their
movement, musicality, and connection do you think they should give up in
order to be able to do a difficult back sacada, say?
The primacy you place on not limiting the possibilities in Tango (as opposed
to other metrics that one might choose as primary, like musicality, or
connection) is, I admit, rather seductive, but in the long run misses the
point. Understanding all the possibilities is very, very fascinating from an
intellectual perspective, and provides great analytical tools for teaching
and dancing in all styles. But the possibilities one gets by looking at
every permutation of possible steps in every permutation of possible frames
(e.g., lead facing follow, lead behind follow, follow behind lead, back to
back, follow riding on lead's shoulders, whatever) are really quite coarse.
There are infinitely more possibilities within one given step in any
particular frame and style than there are possible permutations of broader
variables like frame and style. In other words, there are a million ways to
take a step to the side, but only a relatively few styles and frames in
which one can take that step. I suspect there are a lot of old dancers who
would say that they haven't even begun to exhaust all of the mechanical,
musical, and emotional possibilities of a single step to the side--so why
should they try it inside out, upside down, and backwards?
Evan Wallace
Seattle, WA
Evan@tangoing.com
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:03:18 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Dear Evan:
Blind people do have much better hearing than people
who can see, because they have to compensate for not
being able to see. Given a choice, I would rather use
ALL MY SENSES.
Your argument is an interesting one, but I do not buy
it. Tete is selling what he does. I would be more
impressed if Tete danced the other styles as well.
Ask Astor Piazzolla and his friends if his music would
be better with limitations. Ask the young people who
dance nuevo if their dancing would be better with
limitations.
Derik
--- Evan Wallace <evan@TANGOING.COM> wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 Derik Rawson wrote:
>
> "Great question from Burleigh in New York. Wonderful
> answer from Sergio. It explains beautifully why
> close
> embrace all the time does not work. It limits the
> possibilities. I find that the music usually guides
> the dance and tells both the man and the woman when
> the embrace will open or close... "
>
> Derik:
>
> I suspect that there are hundreds of dancers here in
> Buenos Aires who are
> going to be very surprised to suddenly find out that
> their style of dance
> does not "work" because they never open their
> embrace.
>
> I've spent the last couple of weeks studying Tete's
> dancing in the milongas,
> for example, and I can tell you that his dancing
> most assuredly works, in
> spite of the fact that he never opens his embrace
> (or, in his case, because
> he never opens the embrace). The playfulness, the
> musicality, the
> inventiveness of movements and range of velocities,
> moods, and intentions is
> staggering, and every bit the equal of most Nuevo
> dancers in these measures.
>
> I specifically asked Tete two nights ago, partially
> in response to this
> ongoing thread, if he ever opened his embrace simply
> to accomplish some
> particular movement. He made a most unpleasant face
> and stated emphatically
> that he would never do that. So is Tete's dance
> broken, because he does not
> avail himself of every possibility between two
> bodies? What advice would you
> give to Tete (and hundreds of other dancers who also
> never open their
> embrace) so that they can fix their dancing? Which
> possibilities in their
> movement, musicality, and connection do you think
> they should give up in
> order to be able to do a difficult back sacada, say?
>
> The primacy you place on not limiting the
> possibilities in Tango (as opposed
> to other metrics that one might choose as primary,
> like musicality, or
> connection) is, I admit, rather seductive, but in
> the long run misses the
> point. Understanding all the possibilities is very,
> very fascinating from an
> intellectual perspective, and provides great
> analytical tools for teaching
> and dancing in all styles. But the possibilities one
> gets by looking at
> every permutation of possible steps in every
> permutation of possible frames
> (e.g., lead facing follow, lead behind follow,
> follow behind lead, back to
> back, follow riding on lead's shoulders, whatever)
> are really quite coarse.
> There are infinitely more possibilities within one
> given step in any
> particular frame and style than there are possible
> permutations of broader
> variables like frame and style. In other words,
> there are a million ways to
> take a step to the side, but only a relatively few
> styles and frames in
> which one can take that step. I suspect there are a
> lot of old dancers who
> would say that they haven't even begun to exhaust
> all of the mechanical,
> musical, and emotional possibilities of a single
> step to the side--so why
> should they try it inside out, upside down, and
> backwards?
>
> Evan Wallace
> Seattle, WA
> Evan@tangoing.com
>
>
Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
https://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 07:43:35 -0700
From: burl burl <burlq7@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Evan Wallace says:
"I specifically asked Tete two nights ago, partially in response to this
ongoing thread, if he ever opened his embrace simply to accomplish some
particular movement. He made a most unpleasant face and stated emphatically
that he would never do that. So is Tete's dance broken, because he does not
avail himself of every possibility between two bodies? What advice would you
give to Tete (and hundreds of other dancers who also never open their
embrace) so that they can fix their dancing? Which possibilities in their
movement, musicality, and connection do you think they should give up in
order to be able to do a difficult back sacada, say?"
Evan--
I am currently trying to confine my dance to as good a style as I can mannage in very close embrace--which may be why my partners are asking about the most graceful ways to do their back-step. (We also do alot of swing to mix things up).
Art forms, in general, do not suffer from confinement. Greek tragedy follows a pattern and the entire Divine Comedy is written in 100 cantos of terza rema (sp?).
So no, Tete (whoever he is) dance is not broken.
However, I still find I have to at least shift the embrace, esp if I am going to walk on woman's outside (her right a little, her left a bit more). So ask Tete (for me) if he shifts around from left to right and if his shift right is larger than left. Also ask if he doesn't shift, is he forced to cock his hips a little to bring his legs out?
thanks for your time.
yours
Burleigh
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 03:08:22 -1200
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Burleigh wrote:
> However, I still find I have to at least shift the
embrace, esp if I am going to walk on woman's outside (her
right a little, her left a bit more). So ask Tete (for me)
if he shifts around from left to right and if his
> shift right is larger than left. Also ask if he doesn't
shift, is he forced to cock his hips a little to bring his
legs out?
Burleigh:
I can't answer for Tete. For myself, I have to rotate my
chest to the right to maintain the alignment
(chest-to-chest). However, I continue to walk straight ahead
on the woman's right side. I lead the woman to step straight
back even though her chest rotated to her right. This is
contra body motion. The upper body rotated to the right but
the feet are going straight.
The amount of rotation to the right is the same amount as to
the left when bringing the woman into the cross.
Michael
Washington, DC
Thank goodness for all that yoga or I wouldn't have any
contra body.
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:29:07 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Hi Derik,
A chacun son gout..
Why should Tete dance differently from his own chosen style?
Why should !anyone! dance differently from her/his chosen style?
What seems to be lost on many writers here (well, they have so much time to write ;->) is the enormous amount of time needed to practice until one achieves "style". Or maybe the meaning of !style! is lost on them: imho is achieving the harmony between a dancer's perception of elegance and expression and the physical limitations of her/his own body... and as always, assuming a modicum of talent.. how much time is needed to achieve this harmony!!!!....
Cheers,
Lucia
Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> escribis: I would be more
impressed if Tete danced the other styles as well.
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam !gratis!
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:23:51 +0200
From: Andy <andy.ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
burl burl schrieb:
>
> However, I still find I have to at least shift the embrace, esp if I am going to walk on woman's outside (her right a little, her left a bit more). So ask Tete (for me) if he shifts around from left to right and if his shift right is larger than left. Also ask if he doesn't shift, is he forced to cock his hips a little to bring his legs out?
>
I can imagine what Tete's answer will be: "Musica, Musica! this the only
thing counts, and the woman of course! forget all the steps, they come
automatically if you listen and dance. What do you want to know, how I
move my hips? Why? I told you only the music and the girl is important,
forget everything else!...." Taking classes with him can be very
frustrating.
Fact is that Tete uses his hips in a way a normal human can never reach.
Many people tried to find out what the secret of his style is. Many
believe it's the tummy and try to develop a similar one ;-) Hundred of
men in the Milongas have one and cannot dance like him. I think his hip
joints and the rotating ability of his lower back are the secret. It is
not possible to explain it, you have to see him.
By the way, he can make the woman (almost any woman) do hundred of front
ochos, without loosing the embrace. There is no contradiction between
close embrace and front ochos.
Andy
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 10:59:53 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
So true, Lucia, so true!
Someone pointed out to me (I think it was Susana
Miller) that there is less specialization today than
there used to be. More people are dancing like
everyone else. One result is that there are less
really really good dancers and less variety than there
used to be. With increasing globalization, this trend
may continue.
It's a case of "jack-of-all-trades but master of
none". That may be fine for social dancers. If one's
goal is to become a really, really good dancer (social
or otherwise), it is better to develop and specialize
in one style.
It's like the difference between a family doctor or a
heart transplant surgeon. People like Tete, Rodolfo
Cieri, and Gavito are the heart transplant surgeons.
Personally, I enjoy the stylistic differences of my
favorite dance partners, which allows for a deeper and
more meaningful interaction. I prefer that than the
more superficial interaction of partners just doing
the mechanics.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR> wrote:
> Hi Derik,
>
> A chacun son gout..
>
> Why should Tete dance differently from his own
> chosen style?
>
> Why should !anyone! dance differently from her/his
> chosen style?
>
> What seems to be lost on many writers here (well,
> they have so much time to write ;->) is the
> enormous amount of time needed to practice until
> one achieves "style". Or maybe the meaning of
> !style! is lost on them: imho is achieving the
> harmony between a dancer's perception of elegance
> and expression and the physical limitations of
> her/his own body... and as always, assuming a
> modicum of talent.. how much time is needed to
> achieve this harmony!!!!....
>
> Cheers,
>
> Lucia
>
> Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> escribis: I would
> be more
> impressed if Tete danced the other styles as well.
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:34:53 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Trini and Lucia,
For example, ballroom dancers dance many dances, and there is no problem in
that.
I do not see any reason why one can not dance many tango styles.
In fact we all dance tango, milonga, and vals already.
Then why not to dance one dance like Tete, another one like Gavito, the
third one like Paiva, the forth one like your beloved Miller. There is very
little difference, if you compare it to surgeons and therapists. Most what
you need it a desire. Steps are the same.
Big names are not really examples, since they have to have their own style
for business purposes.
But we do not.
Igor Polk.
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:43:49 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Dear Lucia:
Oui. Chacun a son gout.. (Each one to his own taste.),
but one should use all the senses. Better to be a man
for all seasons instead of just one season.
Actually, I think that Tete is right when he says it
is just about the music and the girl and the rest is
unimportant. If this is true, better to be prepared
for any girl who walks in the door, and likewise, for
girls, be prepared for any man who walks in the door.
Argentine Tango is social first, dance second. The
game is inclusion, not exclusion.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Lucia <curvasreales@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
> Hi Derik,
>
> A chacun son gout..
>
> Why should Tete dance differently from his own
> chosen style?
>
> Why should !anyone! dance differently from her/his
> chosen style?
>
> What seems to be lost on many writers here (well,
> they have so much time to write ;->) is the
> enormous amount of time needed to practice until
> one achieves "style". Or maybe the meaning of
> !style! is lost on them: imho is achieving the
> harmony between a dancer's perception of elegance
> and expression and the physical limitations of
> her/his own body... and as always, assuming a
> modicum of talent.. how much time is needed to
> achieve this harmony!!!!....
>
> Cheers,
>
> Lucia
>
> Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> escribis: I would
> be more
> impressed if Tete danced the other styles as well.
>
>
>
>
>
> Correo Yahoo!
> Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y
> antispam !gratis!
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 12:57:50 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Hello Igor,
I am not saying that one cannot dance many tango
styles. What I was saying is that if one wanted to
become, say the best heart surgeon in the world, then
what would be the point in studying dermatology?
I don't mean to sound sexist, but I would not be
surprised if women can appreciate these differences in
styles more than men. When I hear men talk about
styles, I usually hear talk about steps. "Joe does
nothing about the 8-count, Sam does a lot of turns,"
etc.
When women talk about styles, we are more often than
not discussing how the guys feel or how they make us
feel. "Mike feels so soft and sweet, Tom is so
dynamic."
The steps may be the same, but there are a thousand
different ways of doing them. That is style.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> wrote:
> Trini and Lucia,
>
> For example, ballroom dancers dance many dances, and
> there is no problem in
> that.
>
> I do not see any reason why one can not dance many
> tango styles.
> In fact we all dance tango, milonga, and vals
> already.
> Then why not to dance one dance like Tete, another
> one like Gavito, the
> third one like Paiva, the forth one like your
> beloved Miller. There is very
> little difference, if you compare it to surgeons and
> therapists. Most what
> you need it a desire. Steps are the same.
>
> Big names are not really examples, since they have
> to have their own style
> for business purposes.
> But we do not.
>
> Igor Polk.
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:14:39 -0400
From: Miguel Canals <elpibemc1961@YAHOO.CA>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
--- Derik Rawson wrote:
> ... Tete is right when he says it
> is just about the music and the girl and the rest is
> unimportant. If this is true, better to be prepared
> for any girl who walks in the door, and likewise,
> for girls, be prepared for any man who walks in the
> door.
Derik,
I don't understand what you are saying. Am I supposed
to dance with every girl that come through the door?
Personally, I am more selective. If I don't know
someone, I would watch her dancing first. It is the
same as in any social circle. You associate more with
people who shares the same interest as you.
I may be able to dance with more partners if I dance
nuevo as well as close embrace, but am I achieving the
same quality of dancing? I rather go for quality
than quantity, but that's just me.
Miguelito.
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 13:50:21 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
And why, Trini, Mike has to feel so soft and sweet, Tom so dynamic all the
time?
Can't one be one dance soft, another staccato, the next one dance on
straight legs, another one - on bend legs, one dance "with the axis
vertical", another one - with apilado lean. One dance with soft lead,
another one with strong lead, one dance with strong resistance, another one
flying, when music is Canyengue - dance Canyengue or something that feels
like it, if the music is Bacan Fulero - dance what they danced in 1920s in
ballrooms, and so on?
Again, the comparison to doctors doesn't feel valid to me. This is
misleading association. The scale of comparison is totally different.
Changing dancing is mostly a matter of attitude. While doctors physically
are not able to learn more that they can.
You are right, most people stick to what the do and even a thought that the
same dance can be danced differently, in many ways sounds foreign, even
unwelcome to them. But there is no need to be afraid of, it is much easier
than it perceived.
It seems to me the only people who would want to dance in one style, and
that has to be their own style - future Stars. Not just good professional
performers and teachers, but those who would like be unique, powerful,
influential. Who want to be truly great artists. And while they are not, it
is a dead end to them to stick to one style only, because it limits them in
abilities to find their own unique style. Without which they are just ones
of many....
or am I wrong, Miguelito?
Igor Polk.
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 15:07:33 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Igor,
Changing dancing is more than just changing attitude
because it is a physical act. Our understanding of
the dance will, to some degree, be limited by our own
bodies and how we use them.
Specializing in one style may close off some
possibilities, but it can also open up possibilities
that non-specialists cannnot see or feel. But I do
not think that specialists choose to specialize just
to become great. I think that they are just following
their bliss. Becoming "great" is just a side effect.
Gotta' get back to doing taxes.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> wrote:
> And why, Trini, Mike has to feel so soft and sweet,
> Tom so dynamic all the
> time?
>
> Can't one be one dance soft, another staccato, the
> next one dance on
> straight legs, another one - on bend legs, one dance
> "with the axis
> vertical", another one - with apilado lean. One
> dance with soft lead,
> another one with strong lead, one dance with strong
> resistance, another one
> flying, when music is Canyengue - dance Canyengue or
> something that feels
> like it, if the music is Bacan Fulero - dance what
> they danced in 1920s in
> ballrooms, and so on?
>
> Again, the comparison to doctors doesn't feel valid
> to me. This is
> misleading association. The scale of comparison is
> totally different.
> Changing dancing is mostly a matter of attitude.
> While doctors physically
> are not able to learn more that they can.
>
> You are right, most people stick to what the do and
> even a thought that the
> same dance can be danced differently, in many ways
> sounds foreign, even
> unwelcome to them. But there is no need to be afraid
> of, it is much easier
> than it perceived.
>
> It seems to me the only people who would want to
> dance in one style, and
> that has to be their own style - future Stars. Not
> just good professional
> performers and teachers, but those who would like be
> unique, powerful,
> influential. Who want to be truly great artists. And
> while they are not, it
> is a dead end to them to stick to one style only,
> because it limits them in
> abilities to find their own unique style. Without
> which they are just ones
> of many....
>
> or am I wrong, Miguelito?
>
> Igor Polk.
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 22:14:21 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Changing the embrace, styles dynamics of the dance.
When I say that the close embrace and the lack of space to dance could be
limiting . I am talking "limiting" with respect to all the figures that can
be done in open embrace.
Figures these last ones that may not interest a great many dancers. Who
prefer of are obligated to adopt a close embrace form, style that also
offers all sort of possibilities and occasions to improvise and to play with
the music.
We do not imply then that canyengue or miolonguero are "limited" styles in
any way or form.
Tango is so rich that every style has a lot to offer to any type of dancer.
There could be styles that are uninteresting and do not develop; the styles
that become popular fill a need in the imagination of the dancers who become
enthusiastic enough to learn them and to all to their infinite number of
possibilities.
I have repeated about one million times that one style is not superior or
inferior to any other. Actually a particular style is the best for those
that like it.
IMO to know several styles of just only one is again a question of personal
preference.
One can be perfectly happy going to a particular club and dance always the
same style, the same steps. Others may like variation and for that reason go
to different clubs and dance different styles.
It is sad to hear the ladies say to you, I am glad you came because you
dance different. During you absence I always dance with the same four or
five guys, they always repeat the same moves, I almost know what is coming
next. After awhile it gets sooo boring!.
So the important thing is not to be able to dance different style but to be
able to dance tango changing the dynamics, according to feeling, music and
partner and also to improvise in different ways rather then always repeat
the same five or six moves till the last day of your life.
May you all be able to dance with different dynamic moods and improvising in
many different ways.
Best regards, Sergio
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 16:29:08 -0600
From: Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy@MILONGAS.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Hola Naifas y Garabos,
I once was in conversation with a well know teacher and tango dancer "de rango"
(a standout amongst his peers). He said to me that we were extremely lucky to have
access to all the great teachers as we do now. That back in his days, there was no
such thing as one dancer mastering multiple styles. First, teachers were rare and
far between. Second, venturing out into a "foreign" barrio (one not their own) was
asking for trouble (unless you like being beaten up or to get in fights.)
One could recognize not just which barrio a dancer came from but down to which
dance hall they frequented just by their "style" of dancing.
I for one enjoy dancing different styles. It makes no sense to me to dance some 1930's
Canaro tango with ganchos, giros and back sacadas (they had not become part of the
repertoire yet.) I find it utterly silly to dance in a half-empty salon with thousands of
square feet at my disposal as if I was in a crowded milonga del centro with 300 other
people and the only thing one can do is the ocho cortado.
Every decade saw changes to the way tango was danced. Individual orchestras
developed signature styles. In some cases the same orchestra underwent radical
changes that demand a different way of dancing to their music.
Don't limit yourselves. It is possible to master multiple tango styles.
Best regards,
--
ruddy
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design
a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty
meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
--Declared Robert Heinlein character Lazarus Long.
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 23:48:00 +0100
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Andy wrote:
> I can imagine what Tete's answer will be: "Musica, Musica! this the
> only thing counts, and the woman of course! forget all the steps, they
> come automatically if you listen and dance.
No doubt it would! ;)
> Taking classes with him can be very frustrating.
It had the same effect on me. I thought I was taking in what he showed,
but could make no sense of it in my dance. Years later I danced with him
in a milonga, and though I'd long forgotten what subject he'd been
trying teach, I found out why there was no hope in trying to learn from
him by sight.
As the fox said to the little prince, "what is essential is invisible to
the eye."
Chris
PS In case anyone's interested, I hear Tete will be at Stuttgart's El
Amateur milonga on the 30th of this month.
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 18:27:48 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
So much time has been spent on this! And could there be a more
difficult feeling
to describe? Here's input frpm a follower: Don't push a woman away from
you when
she's in or has been recently in a tango trance. Especially to do some fancy
move just to please yourself. Very wrong.
Lois
Minneapolis, MN
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2006 17:47:05 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Dear Ruddy;
Exactly right. Why act like a blind person, when you
can see?
--- Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy@MILONGAS.COM> wrote:
"I find it utterly silly to dance in a half-empty
salon with thousands of square feet at my disposal as
if I was in a crowded milonga del centro with 300
other people and the only thing one can do is the cho
cortado.
....
Don't limit yourselves. It is possible to master
multiple tango styles."
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy@MILONGAS.COM> wrote:
> Hola Naifas y Garabos,
> I once was in conversation with a well know
> teacher and tango dancer "de rango"
> (a standout amongst his peers). He said to me that
> we were extremely lucky to have
> access to all the great teachers as we do now. That
> back in his days, there was no
> such thing as one dancer mastering multiple styles.
> First, teachers were rare and
> far between. Second, venturing out into a "foreign"
> barrio (one not their own) was
> asking for trouble (unless you like being beaten up
> or to get in fights.)
> One could recognize not just which barrio a dancer
> came from but down to which
> dance hall they frequented just by their "style" of
> dancing.
>
> I for one enjoy dancing different styles. It makes
> no sense to me to dance some 1930's
> Canaro tango with ganchos, giros and back sacadas
> (they had not become part of the
> repertoire yet.) I find it utterly silly to dance in
> a half-empty salon with thousands of
> square feet at my disposal as if I was in a crowded
> milonga del centro with 300 other
> people and the only thing one can do is the ocho
> cortado.
>
> Every decade saw changes to the way tango was
> danced. Individual orchestras
> developed signature styles. In some cases the same
> orchestra underwent radical
> changes that demand a different way of dancing to
> their music.
>
> Don't limit yourselves. It is possible to master
> multiple tango styles.
>
> Best regards,
> --
> ruddy
>
> "A human being should be able to change a diaper,
> plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design
> a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build
> a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
> give orders,
> cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
> problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a
> tasty
> meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
> Specialization is for insects."
> --Declared Robert Heinlein character Lazarus Long.
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:34:35 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> escribis: And why, Trini, Mike has to feel so soft and sweet, Tom so dynamic all the
time?
Hi Igor,
Athough in a previous post I defined !style! as a matter of personal expression adapted to the characteristics of the body, I didn't mention the most important ingredient: the personality, the character of the dancer. Someone is soft, and his/her style is soft, no matter if she/he dances a spirited or a langurous dance. Viceversa for a hard character - even a soft dance will feel hard.
Style adapts to the musical genre, to the melody line and rhythm, hence you have the great difference between how one dances the Tango, Milonga or Vals, but once you have it it grows on you, becomes a physical trait like your gait..
...and you are proud of of your own !style!, it becomes a differentiator and all the naives gawk and wonder at you and interview you and discuss you on web forums ad nauseam...and invite you to their homes and table!!!!
Lucia ;->
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam !gratis!
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 09:16:33 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENINET.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
ruddy writes:
>
> Don't limit yourselves. It is possible to master multiple tango styles.
I agree with you, and this is one point on which
I disagree with Susana Miller. That's like saying, "Well,
since you're taking French class, you can't take Russian
too because if you do you'll just get confused." Nonsense.
Huck
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:44:30 -0400
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Copying many styles. master/owner of none...
On 4/14/06, Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu> wrote:
>
> ruddy writes:
> >
> > Don't limit yourselves. It is possible to master multiple tango styles.
>
> I agree with you, and this is one point on which
> I disagree with Susana Miller. That's like saying, "Well,
> since you're taking French class, you can't take Russian
> too because if you do you'll just get confused." Nonsense.
>
> Huck
>
.
>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 15:01:27 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
>From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
>
>Copying many styles. master/owner of none...
Not necessarily true....Taking instruction from various teachers does not
make it mandatory to copy anybody's style. Personally, I think that
prospective students should try different teachers to find the one that fits
with them best. After taking lessons and actually learning from various
teachers, the student can form or create his or her own style. Mastery come
later, sometimes much later if at all. What would you suggest a student to
do?....
>On 4/14/06, Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu> wrote:
> >
> > ruddy writes:
> > >
> > > Don't limit yourselves. It is possible to master multiple tango
>styles.
> >
> > I agree with you, and this is one point on which
> > I disagree with Susana Miller. That's like saying, "Well,
> > since you're taking French class, you can't take Russian
> > too because if you do you'll just get confused." Nonsense.
> >
> > Huck
This is actually quite true. The fact of the matter is that even teachers
take lessons from other teachers. You might find it extremely surprising to
know just who has taken lessons from whom.... Would you believe the apilado
master having taken lessons from the "nuevo" master? I've heard from people
who know first hand that this is true...... Why should a beginner not take
lessons from the teacher of teachers?
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:59:45 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: style appropriate to circumstance [was Changing the embrace]
--- Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy@MILONGAS.COM> wrote:
> ... I find it utterly silly to dance in
> a half-empty salon with thousands of
> square feet at my disposal as if I was in a crowded
> milonga del centro with 300 other
> people and the only thing one can do is the ocho
> cortado.
Oh, bless you! Say it again! Say it every week! And
I will add the chorus: "If YOU want to dance that
way, at least don't block the ronda on purpose."
Sick to death of being forced to putter by the
self-appointed guardians of the true style,
Marisa
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 16:18:37 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: style appropriate to circumstance [was Changing the embrace]
Hi Marissa,
Those self appointed masters of the true style are just totally unskilled
dancers who cannot dance much at all. There is no "true style" that requires
totall immobility ;-). Remember, it's much easier to declare one's plodding
to be the "truth and the light" that to actually learn to dance, LOL.. Some
times I think that's why some people insist in makiing the dance floor as
small and crowded as possible. Then they have an excuse for not moving at
all.
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] style appropriate to circumstance [was Changing the
>embrace]
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:59:45 -0700
>
>--- Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy@MILONGAS.COM> wrote:
> > ... I find it utterly silly to dance in
> > a half-empty salon with thousands of
> > square feet at my disposal as if I was in a crowded
> > milonga del centro with 300 other
> > people and the only thing one can do is the ocho
> > cortado.
>
>Oh, bless you! Say it again! Say it every week! And
>I will add the chorus: "If YOU want to dance that
>way, at least don't block the ronda on purpose."
>
>Sick to death of being forced to putter by the
>self-appointed guardians of the true style,
>Marisa
>
>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:38:48 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
This is one of those misinterpretations, again.
During our many conversations, Susana has often said
that one can do multiple styles, but one will not get
as far in any one style than if one specializes
instead.
In other words, if you work on Style A and Style B and
Style C, you could be come a good dancer in all three
styles. However, if you choose to do only Style C,
then you could be come a really great dancer in Style
C.
This is borne out by looking at the teachers traveling
today. Even if a teacher knows all of the different
styles, they are known for being particularly good in
one style or some particular characteristics of
his/her dance.
The fallacy dancers can make is believing that they
will know as much as a specialist will in his/her
particular style. There have been many postings on
Tango-L by those who have this fallacy.
Trini de Pittsburgh
P.S. Excellent posts Deby & Sergio.
> I agree with you, and this is one point on
> which
> I disagree with Susana Miller. That's like saying,
> "Well,
> since you're taking French class, you can't take
> Russian
> too because if you do you'll just get confused."
> Nonsense.
>
> Huck
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 18:23:51 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: style appropriate to circumstance [was Changing the embrace]
Dear Manuel and Marissa:
Exactly right! These people cannot dance (cannot
move) and they cover it up, by getting in the way and
complaining about how other people dance...lol.
Furthermore, their leader, Susanna Miller has been
"dead wrong" on too many dance issues, so I really do
not trust her.
1. Apalido all the time (leaning on your partner all
the time)...nonsense! Note: She has finally stopped
this, but I have pictures of her teaching it in the
past, of course...lol.
2. Telling people not to confuse themselves by taking
from other teachers....nonsense.
I am sure that Susanna Miller is good at some things,
but when I see her teach and say this kind of stuff, I
loose my trust in her teaching.
I personally think that one should take from many
teachers, learn many styles, and from the total
experience, create ones own unique style. This is
indeed the equivalent of learning English, Spanish,
French. Italian and Russian and being able to converse
easily with any person that walks in the door. You
still have you own conversational style, but you can
communicate better.
PS- People who speak many languages just have access
to an expanded vocabulary. They often use words and
phrases from whatever language best communicates.
When they speak to each other, you may hear an English
word followed by a French word followed by a Spanish
word. They are not confused, but the people who are
ignorant and have not expanded their vocabulary by
learning more languages are very confused...lol. If
they are US American, they usually stop the
conversation and demand that everyone speak English
just like them...Does this sound familiar????
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> Hi Marissa,
>
> Those self appointed masters of the true style are
> just totally unskilled
> dancers who cannot dance much at all. There is no
> "true style" that requires
> totall immobility ;-). Remember, it's much easier to
> declare one's plodding
> to be the "truth and the light" that to actually
> learn to dance, LOL.. Some
> times I think that's why some people insist in
> makiing the dance floor as
> small and crowded as possible. Then they have an
> excuse for not moving at
> all.
>
> Manuel
>
> visit our webpage
> www.tango-rio.com
>
>
>
>
> >From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
> >Reply-To: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
> >To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> >Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] style appropriate to
> circumstance [was Changing the
> >embrace]
> >Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2006 12:59:45 -0700
> >
> >--- Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy@MILONGAS.COM> wrote:
> > > ... I find it utterly silly to dance in
> > > a half-empty salon with thousands of
> > > square feet at my disposal as if I was in a
> crowded
> > > milonga del centro with 300 other
> > > people and the only thing one can do is the ocho
> > > cortado.
> >
> >Oh, bless you! Say it again! Say it every week!
> And
> >I will add the chorus: "If YOU want to dance that
> >way, at least don't block the ronda on purpose."
> >
> >Sick to death of being forced to putter by the
> >self-appointed guardians of the true style,
> >Marisa
> >
> protection around
> >
>
> should be sent to
> Tango-A, send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 09:08:12 -0500
From: Ron Weigel <tango.society@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: style appropriate to circumstance [was Changing the embrace]
On 4/14/06, Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Ruddy Zelaya <ruddy@MILONGAS.COM> wrote:
> > ... I find it utterly silly to dance in
> > a half-empty salon with thousands of
> > square feet at my disposal as if I was in a crowded
> > milonga del centro with 300 other
> > people and the only thing one can do is the ocho
> > cortado.
>
> Oh, bless you! Say it again! Say it every week! And
> I will add the chorus: "If YOU want to dance that
> way, at least don't block the ronda on purpose."
>
> Sick to death of being forced to putter by the
> self-appointed guardians of the true style,
> Marisa
It looks like the 'noodling milongueros' are under attack again.
Good dancers of any style know how to use the space available to them.
If there is space open in front of you in the line of dance, you move
forward. As someone who now dances only milonguero style (by choice,
after having spent many years dancing 'salon style, open embrace'), I
also find dancers blocking the movement of the line of dance in front
of me frustrating. However, in my experience, these are most likely to
be dancers of the 'salon style, open embrace' doing sandwiches and
lustradas or perhaps the latest molinete that requires 3 or 4 complete
turns of the woman around the man before moving on. (Perhaps they just
forgot how to end the thing.) Of course, good dancers of the 'salon
style, open embrace' also know when to move on and when to stay.
On 4/14/06, WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Marissa,
>
> Those self appointed masters of the true style are just totally unskilled
> dancers who cannot dance much at all. There is no "true style" that requires
> totall immobility ;-). Remember, it's much easier to declare one's plodding
> to be the "truth and the light" that to actually learn to dance, LOL.. Some
> times I think that's why some people insist in makiing the dance floor as
> small and crowded as possible. Then they have an excuse for not moving at
> all.
>
> Manuel
There's a lot of mobility in the milonguero style - lots of rock
steps, rhythm changes, change of direection. It just takes place by
moving within a small space.
There's something nice about a crowded floor, if it is orderly. A
group of good milonguero style dancers can move along the line of
dance as a unit. It is beautiful to watch this harmony (or better yet,
to participate in it).
I find a crowded floor brings out creativity. With the open floor,
selection of movements can like the excecution of a predetermined
'figure'. On a crowded floor, the leader needs to make decisions about
sequences in just about every step. It is exciting when you have
reached the level where you can do that.
On the other hand, a crowded floor can be a niggtmare when dancing
with other dancers who need their space, because they don't know how
to fit their learned patterns to the available space. These are
usually the kind of people who complain about crowded floors.
Ron
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 13:47:36 -0700
From: Evan Wallace <evan@TANGOING.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
On April 13, Derik Rawson wrote:
"Blind people do have much better hearing than people
who can see, because they have to compensate for not
being able to see. Given a choice, I would rather use
ALL MY SENSES.
"Ask Astor Piazzolla and his friends if his music would
be better with limitations. Ask the young people who
dance nuevo if their dancing would be better with
limitations."
On April 13, Derik Rawson wrote:
"Susanna Miller has been "dead wrong" on too many dance
issues, so I really do not trust her...Apalido all the
time (leaning on your partner all the time)...nonsense!
Derek:
Just to be clear: YOU can do anything you want. You can dance in every
possible style, or just one. You can dance with all five senses, or with
your mouth taped shut (which, come to think of it, is perhaps not a bad
idea). You may also opine at any length on any of these topics, ad naseum.
Knock yourself out.
However, when you make a statement on a public forum such as this which is
patently absurd, it needs to be pointed out as such. When you say: "Close
embrace all the time doesn't work [because] it limits the possibilities", or
"Apilado all the time...nonsense!" you are making patently absurd statements
that are demonstrably false. We know they are false because one has only to
travel to the place of the origin of Tango to see hundreds of tremendously
skilled dancers, some of whom are of an age and stature to have figured
prominently in the development of Tango, dancing close in a way that
demonstrates expansive and virtually endless musical and mechanical
possibilities. And because your statements are demonstrably false, they
cannot even be offered as valid opinions, let alone valid statements of
fact. They are simply wrong, like saying, "Tango originated in the Bahamas."
Appending the words "In my opinion" doesn't even help. They are still wrong.
As to your other questions, would Nuevo dancers be better off if they
limited the possibilities? Funny you should ask. In my opinion, there are
lots of Nuevo dancers who would be much better off if they, at least
temporarily, put aside a few of the possibilities they avail themselves of
until they matured more as dancers. From this opinion, however, I will not
present as fact the statement "Open embrace doesn't work, because it allows
too many possibilities for most dancers to handle well." This is
demonstrably false, because I have seen hundreds of Nuevo dancers master the
possibilities of the dance in a way that is unbelievably musical, playful,
and connected.
So, especially to the beginners on this list, who are having a hard enough
time wrapping their hearts and minds around this thing called Tango, be
assured: dancing all the time in close embrace works great and is a valid
style in the Tango paradigm. Dancing open all the time works and is a valid
style. Dancing in a manner that opens or closes over the course of an
evening depending on music, floor conditions, and mood, works and is valid.
Dancing in a manner in which the embrace opens and closes within a given
song works (with some caveats) and is valid. Don't let anyone on this list
or anywhere else tell you differently.
Evan Wallace
Seattle, Wa
Evan@tangoing.com
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 14:56:18 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Dear Evan:
Don't be ridiculous...lol. Do you dance tango just by
yourself? One has to be prepared for any woman who
walks in the door and she has to be prepared for you.
Tango is social first, dance second.
--- Evan Wallace <evan@TANGOING.COM> wrote:
"Just to be clear: YOU can do anything you want. You
can dance in every possible style, or just one."
Also, if you do not try to learn new vocabulary, you
will be dull and boring. The nuevo people are
exploring new areas and creating new words. They may
not be perfect all the time, but at least they are
refreshing tango.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- Evan Wallace <evan@TANGOING.COM> wrote:
> On April 13, Derik Rawson wrote:
>
> "Blind people do have much better hearing than
> people
> who can see, because they have to compensate for not
> being able to see. Given a choice, I would rather
> use
> ALL MY SENSES.
>
> "Ask Astor Piazzolla and his friends if his music
> would
> be better with limitations. Ask the young people
> who
> dance nuevo if their dancing would be better with
> limitations."
>
> On April 13, Derik Rawson wrote:
>
> "Susanna Miller has been "dead wrong" on too many
> dance
> issues, so I really do not trust her...Apalido all
> the
> time (leaning on your partner all the
> time)...nonsense!
>
>
> Derek:
>
> Just to be clear: YOU can do anything you want. You
> can dance in every
> possible style, or just one. You can dance with all
> five senses, or with
> your mouth taped shut (which, come to think of it,
> is perhaps not a bad
> idea). You may also opine at any length on any of
> these topics, ad naseum.
> Knock yourself out.
>
> However, when you make a statement on a public forum
> such as this which is
> patently absurd, it needs to be pointed out as such.
> When you say: "Close
> embrace all the time doesn't work [because] it
> limits the possibilities", or
> "Apilado all the time...nonsense!" you are making
> patently absurd statements
> that are demonstrably false. We know they are false
> because one has only to
> travel to the place of the origin of Tango to see
> hundreds of tremendously
> skilled dancers, some of whom are of an age and
> stature to have figured
> prominently in the development of Tango, dancing
> close in a way that
> demonstrates expansive and virtually endless musical
> and mechanical
> possibilities. And because your statements are
> demonstrably false, they
> cannot even be offered as valid opinions, let alone
> valid statements of
> fact. They are simply wrong, like saying, "Tango
> originated in the Bahamas."
> Appending the words "In my opinion" doesn't even
> help. They are still wrong.
>
> As to your other questions, would Nuevo dancers be
> better off if they
> limited the possibilities? Funny you should ask. In
> my opinion, there are
> lots of Nuevo dancers who would be much better off
> if they, at least
> temporarily, put aside a few of the possibilities
> they avail themselves of
> until they matured more as dancers. From this
> opinion, however, I will not
> present as fact the statement "Open embrace doesn't
> work, because it allows
> too many possibilities for most dancers to handle
> well." This is
> demonstrably false, because I have seen hundreds of
> Nuevo dancers master the
> possibilities of the dance in a way that is
> unbelievably musical, playful,
> and connected.
>
> So, especially to the beginners on this list, who
> are having a hard enough
> time wrapping their hearts and minds around this
> thing called Tango, be
> assured: dancing all the time in close embrace works
> great and is a valid
> style in the Tango paradigm. Dancing open all the
> time works and is a valid
> style. Dancing in a manner that opens or closes over
> the course of an
> evening depending on music, floor conditions, and
> mood, works and is valid.
> Dancing in a manner in which the embrace opens and
> closes within a given
> song works (with some caveats) and is valid. Don't
> let anyone on this list
> or anywhere else tell you differently.
>
> Evan Wallace
> Seattle, Wa
> Evan@tangoing.com
>
>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:25:27 -0700
From: Neeraj Korde <nkorde@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Dude,
You totally miss the point that Evan makes. He never said anything against
open embrace dancers. In fact he ackowledges their talent. What he said and
you totally miss is that the possibilities in close are way more than you
think. Enough to keep you or any of us busy for our lifetime. What makes the
difference is what you want to do ? If you are into open, fine. That does
not mean close has no possibilities.
Since you point out that "Tango is social first, dance second" I should
remind you that at any decent milonga you will be dancing close for most of
the time. Also to imply that close embrace dancers are boring puts almost
everybody in the boring category because that is what most people do most of
the time at any social dance gathering aka milonga. That is 'demonstrably'
false.
I also agree with Evan that no beginner should rely on the list for expert
advice. Cause you see, none of the experts write any mails. They are busy
dancing... (So I guess I shouldn't be sending this :-) )The posts are mostly
extreme opinions and useless arguments that are of no use. The creators of
the list probably had more noble intentions but this is sad. The best thing
to do would be get hold of a real expert and learn stuff from him/her in
person on the dance floor rather than talking endlessly over issues that
will never help you progress.
Best,
Neeraj
Seattle
On 4/15/06, Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Evan:
>
> Don't be ridiculous...lol. Do you dance tango just by
> yourself? One has to be prepared for any woman who
> walks in the door and she has to be prepared for you.
> Tango is social first, dance second.
>
> --- Evan Wallace <evan@TANGOING.COM> wrote:
>
> "Just to be clear: YOU can do anything you want. You
> can dance in every possible style, or just one."
>
> Also, if you do not try to learn new vocabulary, you
> will be dull and boring. The nuevo people are
> exploring new areas and creating new words. They may
> not be perfect all the time, but at least they are
> refreshing tango.
>
> Derik
> d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>
> > "Blind people do have much better hearing than
> > people
> > who can see, because they have to compensate for not
> > being able to see. Given a choice, I would rather
> > use
> > ALL MY SENSES.
> >
> > "Ask Astor Piazzolla and his friends if his music
> > would
> > be better with limitations. Ask the young people
> > who
> > dance nuevo if their dancing would be better with
> > limitations."
> >
> > On April 13, Derik Rawson wrote:
> >
> > "Susanna Miller has been "dead wrong" on too many
> > dance
> > issues, so I really do not trust her...Apalido all
> > the
> > time (leaning on your partner all the
> > time)...nonsense!
> >
> >
> > Derek:
> >
> > Just to be clear: YOU can do anything you want. You
> > can dance in every
> > possible style, or just one. You can dance with all
> > five senses, or with
> > your mouth taped shut (which, come to think of it,
> > is perhaps not a bad
> > idea). You may also opine at any length on any of
> > these topics, ad naseum.
> > Knock yourself out.
> >
> > However, when you make a statement on a public forum
> > such as this which is
> > patently absurd, it needs to be pointed out as such.
> > When you say: "Close
> > embrace all the time doesn't work [because] it
> > limits the possibilities", or
> > "Apilado all the time...nonsense!" you are making
> > patently absurd statements
> > that are demonstrably false. We know they are false
> > because one has only to
> > travel to the place of the origin of Tango to see
> > hundreds of tremendously
> > skilled dancers, some of whom are of an age and
> > stature to have figured
> > prominently in the development of Tango, dancing
> > close in a way that
> > demonstrates expansive and virtually endless musical
> > and mechanical
> > possibilities. And because your statements are
> > demonstrably false, they
> > cannot even be offered as valid opinions, let alone
> > valid statements of
> > fact. They are simply wrong, like saying, "Tango
> > originated in the Bahamas."
> > Appending the words "In my opinion" doesn't even
> > help. They are still wrong.
> >
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:27:31 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Why?
--- Derik Rawson wrote:
One has to be prepared for any woman who walks in the
door and she has to be prepared for you.
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 15:37:07 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Dear ?
Because...lol.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
wrote:
> Why?
>
> --- Derik Rawson wrote:
>
> One has to be prepared for any woman who walks in
> the
> door and she has to be prepared for you.
>
>
> protection around
>
>
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2006 18:28:31 -0700
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Changing the embrace
Derik,
Believe me, all the list heartliy agrees with you on
one thing: we are all "laughing out loud"! LOL!
Michael Figart II
Houston TX
--- Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Dear ?
>
> Because...lol.
>
> Derik
> d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
>
>
> --- "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > Why?
> >
> > --- Derik Rawson wrote:
> >
> > One has to be prepared for any woman who walks in
> > the
> > door and she has to be prepared for you.
> >
> >
> > protection around
> >
> >
>
>
> protection around
>
