4249 chartered for growth
Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 21:19:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] chartered for growth
Several of our friends have started their own tango
groups recently which has me wondering a few things
about community building. Specifically, how to expand
a community without going through a division within
the community. Most of the second groups I know have
faced animosity from the original group/instructor,
which can take awhile to heal.
Theoretically, more groups should mean more growth and
opportunities for a community. In smaller
communities, though it can be perceived as a
debilitating community division.
So far the only city I know of that seems to have
increased the number of independent instructors/groups
without any animosity is Portland. I understand that
much of that is due to Clay, who runs Octoberfest and
Valentango.
New York has also grown tremendously, but I suspect
that the first places to dance tango had professional
ballroom people who were already used to competition.
NYC is also huge, so I would think there wasn?t too
much of an issue when multiple tango teachers began
appearing. Does anyone know if that was the case?
Have other cities developed with multiple groups (not
multiple instructors within the same group) in a
healthy way? If this has happened in your community,
was is it just by luck of personalities or had the
original group planned for growth and possible
offshoots (something written in the charter)? Or was
it just a function of the size of the city?
This may have been discussed before, but I do not
recall any discussion on specific measures that were
taken by an original group before a second actually
group formed.
Thanks,
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 11:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chartered for growth
Hi Listeros,
I have been receiving privately some very informative
emails. Understandably, community division is not
something that is easily addressed in a public forum.
There are some recurrent themes, so I will gather the
"lessons learned" from those who answer privately and
present them without being specific about details.
Before I give folks the wrong impression about
Pittsburgh, the division here ended several months ago
after four years. It basically ended when the leader
of the other group and I got directly to the point of
contention without being influenced by other people.
Problem got solved pretty darn quick.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 14:33:05 -0500
From: "Ed Doyle" <doyleed@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chartered for growth
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<183484970605081233h1c466a21hdbe2ba01e06289a4@mail.gmail.com>
Wow Trini,
I hope you can keep your community from becoming divided. I will offer
you my 2 cents worth on the subject. I think the key is
communication, honesty, trust, and a desire by ALL parties who have a
vested interest in tango to keep the community together. This is easy
to say, and not easy to do.
My wife Cindy and I have the luxury of having a home in Portland
Oregon, and another in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. We spend the winter
in Florida and summer in Oregon. Let me contrast the two tango
communities.
In Portland, the teachers ALL cooperate with each other, promote each
other, assist and build on each others expertise. Some teach open,
some teach closed embrace, some cator to beginners, some to more
experienced dancers. They maintain a web site listing ALL tango
events. The teachers attempt to coordinate special events, such as
bringing in out of town instructors, and milongas, with each other, so
that people can attend each and not have two events on the same date.
All teachers suggest to all students that they try all the teachers
and pick the one that connects best with their needs. I think all
this cooperation got started through the efforts of Clay. You might
want to try to bring Clay to your city and try to have a city wide
instructor meeting to discuss the issues.
Fort Lauderdale is almost the direct opposite. My wife and I wanted
to attend a milonga hosted by an instructor and he refused to let us
attend because we had taken group lessons with another teacher in the
area.There are days when there is no tango in the area, and days when
there are three milongas on the same night. There is no central
clearing point for information, each person passes on info that they
have and it is catch as catch can. I have mentioned the name of one
instructor to another and he began openly criticising that instructor.
This is all very sad.
So - my suggestion is that you contact Clay or one of his assistants
as soon as possible. Once a community is divided, I think it would be
very difficult to make it whole again. I hope somehow you can make or
keep your city more like Portland than Fort Lauderdale. Individually,
I love and respect the instructors from Fort Lauderdale every bit as
much as my friends in Portland, but it is sad to see them bicker with
each other instead of cooperating and growing the tango community at
large.
Good Luck
Ed
On 5/7/06, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Several of our friends have started their own tango
> groups recently which has me wondering a few things
> about community building. Specifically, how to expand
> a community without going through a division within
> the community. Most of the second groups I know have
> faced animosity from the original group/instructor,
> which can take awhile to heal.
>
> Theoretically, more groups should mean more growth and
> opportunities for a community. In smaller
> communities, though it can be perceived as a
> debilitating community division.
>
> So far the only city I know of that seems to have
> increased the number of independent instructors/groups
> without any animosity is Portland. I understand that
> much of that is due to Clay, who runs Octoberfest and
> Valentango.
>
> New York has also grown tremendously, but I suspect
> that the first places to dance tango had professional
> ballroom people who were already used to competition.
> NYC is also huge, so I would think there wasn't too
> much of an issue when multiple tango teachers began
> appearing. Does anyone know if that was the case?
>
> Have other cities developed with multiple groups (not
> multiple instructors within the same group) in a
> healthy way? If this has happened in your community,
> was is it just by luck of personalities or had the
> original group planned for growth and possible
> offshoots (something written in the charter)? Or was
> it just a function of the size of the city?
>
> This may have been discussed before, but I do not
> recall any discussion on specific measures that were
> taken by an original group before a second actually
> group formed.
>
> Thanks,
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 8 May 2006 12:48:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chartered for growth
To: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>, Tango-L
I have a few words about the Portland tango scene from the perspective of a community member, rather than an instructor or organizer.
I consider myself to be very fortunate to be here. From the beginning I was told in classes that tango is a very broad subject, and there are many styles and ways of approaching it. Students were encouraged to study with other teachers and explore the possibilities .
For several years now, I have taken classes, and series of classes from many of the local instructors. They have all encouraged learning from other instructors, and attending events at other venues. While I am open to the possibility that there are many things happening in private, as a group the instructors and organizers of the Portland tango scene set a standard of civility and cooperation that is hard to match.
The relative sizes of Portland and Pittsburgh has come up in other venues, so let me share some facts I researched.
"While the city of Pittsburgh may be "only about 2/3 the size of Portland", and have a population of 334,000,compared to Portland's population of 529,000; citing these facts gives a very incomplete picture... .
Cities are components of "agglomerations", or metropolitan area, defined as a central city and neighboring communities linked to it by continuous built-up areas or by many commuters. Proponents of urban areas frequently overlook this fact. The Pittsburgh agglomeration has a population of 2,358,695. The Portland area has a population of 1,918,009. So, when looking at populations of the total metropolitan areas, ... Portland is actually 19% smaller than Pittsburgh."
"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
Several of our friends have started their own tango
groups recently which has me wondering a few things
about community building. Specifically, how to expand
a community without going through a division within
the community. Most of the second groups I know have
faced animosity from the original group/instructor,
which can take awhile to heal.
Theoretically, more groups should mean more growth and
opportunities for a community. In smaller
communities, though it can be perceived as a
debilitating community division.
So far the only city I know of that seems to have
increased the number of independent instructors/groups
without any animosity is Portland. I understand that
much of that is due to Clay, who runs Octoberfest and
Valentango.
New York has also grown tremendously, but I suspect
that the first places to dance tango had professional
ballroom people who were already used to competition.
NYC is also huge, so I would think there wasn?t too
much of an issue when multiple tango teachers began
appearing. Does anyone know if that was the case?
Have other cities developed with multiple groups (not
multiple instructors within the same group) in a
healthy way? If this has happened in your community,
was is it just by luck of personalities or had the
original group planned for growth and possible
offshoots (something written in the charter)? Or was
it just a function of the size of the city?
This may have been discussed before, but I do not
recall any discussion on specific measures that were
taken by an original group before a second actually
group formed.
Thanks,
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Blab-away for as little as 1?/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 12:46:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] chartered for growth
Hi Steve,
I am still analyzing the responses I have received,
but you do do bring up one interesting aspect.
Pittsburgh and Portland are also similar in that in
our cities, the tango events are centrally located.
In Pittsburgh, the events are located within a mile or
two (there are now a total of five groups with two
groups providing the main activities). Most
organizers live within two miles of each other.
This proximity may have helped ease the conflict. It
certainly made it easier for those who wanted to
support multiple groups during the early years of
conflict. It also kept the desire for unity alive for
nonorganizers within the community, as opposed to
accepting it as part of the landscape.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have a few words about the Portland tango scene
> from the perspective of a community member, rather
> than an instructor or organizer.
> I consider myself to be very fortunate to be here.
> From the beginning I was told in classes that tango
> is a very broad subject, and there are many styles
> and ways of approaching it. Students were encouraged
> to study with other teachers and explore the
> possibilities .
> For several years now, I have taken classes, and
> series of classes from many of the local
> instructors. They have all encouraged learning from
> other instructors, and attending events at other
> venues. While I am open to the possibility that
> there are many things happening in private, as a
> group the instructors and organizers of the Portland
> tango scene set a standard of civility and
> cooperation that is hard to match.
>
> The relative sizes of Portland and Pittsburgh has
> come up in other venues, so let me share some facts
> I researched.
> "While the city of Pittsburgh may be "only about
> 2/3 the size of Portland", and have a population of
> 334,000,compared to Portland's population of
> 529,000; citing these facts gives a very incomplete
> picture... .
> Cities are components of "agglomerations", or
> metropolitan area, defined as a central city and
> neighboring communities linked to it by continuous
> built-up areas or by many commuters. Proponents of
> urban areas frequently overlook this fact. The
> Pittsburgh agglomeration has a population of
> 2,358,695. The Portland area has a population of
> 1,918,009. So, when looking at populations of the
> total metropolitan areas, ... Portland is actually
> 19% smaller than Pittsburgh."
>
>
>
> "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> Several of our friends have started their own
> tango
> groups recently which has me wondering a few things
> about community building. Specifically, how to
> expand
> a community without going through a division within
> the community. Most of the second groups I know have
> faced animosity from the original group/instructor,
> which can take awhile to heal.
>
> Theoretically, more groups should mean more growth
> and
> opportunities for a community. In smaller
> communities, though it can be perceived as a
> debilitating community division.
>
> So far the only city I know of that seems to have
> increased the number of independent
> instructors/groups
> without any animosity is Portland. I understand that
> much of that is due to Clay, who runs Octoberfest
> and
> Valentango.
>
> New York has also grown tremendously, but I suspect
> that the first places to dance tango had
> professional
> ballroom people who were already used to
> competition.
> NYC is also huge, so I would think there wasn?t too
> much of an issue when multiple tango teachers began
> appearing. Does anyone know if that was the case?
>
> Have other cities developed with multiple groups
> (not
> multiple instructors within the same group) in a
> healthy way? If this has happened in your community,
> was is it just by luck of personalities or had the
> original group planned for growth and possible
> offshoots (something written in the charter)? Or was
> it just a function of the size of the city?
>
> This may have been discussed before, but I do not
> recall any discussion on specific measures that were
> taken by an original group before a second actually
> group formed.
>
> Thanks,
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's
> most popular social dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
> protection around
>
>
>
> Blab-away for as little as 1?/min. Make PC-to-Phone
> Calls using Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
