4861 Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:56:28 -0400
From: "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal
teachers
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
<DDA0C1BA83D32D45ACB965BA82FD81C7576C58@LAWMNEXV2.LAW.LOCAL>
Chris, UK wrote about Gavito and Gustavo Naveira as examples of
effective male teachers. Those two Tango Gods have been the maestros at
conveying, respectively, the heart and mind of tango over the last 20
years. No other male teachers compare, let alone female teachers. That
being said, and my opinion is of course highly subjective, there are two
incredible female teachers in the NYC metro region whom I believe are
very strong at conveying the argentine feel of lead, both of whom
studied with the above mentioned gods. So I disagree with whoever
thinks a woman can't do it. I will not state publicly on this list who
they are, as I want to be apolitical and on good terms with all who I
study with, but if you ask me at a milonga ..
-Martin
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:33 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal
teachers
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
"Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov> on Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:56:28
-0400 wrote:
> Chris, UK wrote about ... Gustavo Naveira as examples of effective
> male teachers.
I did not. For the record, what I did write is copied below.
--
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Outside Influences (was The Original Tango
Festival)
*From:* "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
*CC:* tl2@chrisjj.com
*Date:* Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:10 +0100 (BST)
> Let?s look at women teachers in BsAs. From what I
> understand, women who teach without a male partner are not
> held in the same regard as they would be in other countries.
Um, what other countries, Trini?? I think you'll find it's USA not BsAs
that's the odd one out. Certainly in Europe too women teachers are held in
lower regard (though a few deserve better).
The reasons are surely obvious.
I recall a workshop here taught by Veronica Villaroel alone, where she
struggled to get herself lead in the step she required by beginner guys
picked from the class. Followed by a workshop by Carlos Gavito alone,
having no trouble demoing by leading beginner girls.
Couples too often reinforce the perception that in class teaching women
are better seen but not heard. In the last workshop I took with Gustavo
Naviera and Giselle Anne (about 7 years ago), Giselle said not one word in
the whole 1.5 hours.
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* [Tango-L] Outside Influences (was The Original Tango Festival)
*From:* "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
*To:* tango-L@mit.edu
*Date:* Sat, 24 Mar 2007 20:54:00 -0700 (PDT)
The following is not meant to start flame-wars, so read no
further if you?re inclined to find controversy where none
is intended.
In the article, Fabian commented that he started CITA
because there were tango festivals going on worldwide but
not in BsAs. What I found particularly interesting was
that his comment clearly showed that he was influenced by
what was happening outside of BsAs. (For obvious reasons,
there is less of a need for a festival in BsAs than there
is in other countries.) I also realized that the teachers
at CITA are quite accustomed to festivals from their
experiences in other countries. Argentine tango teachers
are also doing their own festivals now in BsAs (Pulpo?s
Tango Week, Milongueando) and are actively recruiting as
they tour. This is also relatively new.
Argentine teachers who tour have also become accustomed to
more relaxed customs. Among them:
- asking a person verbally to dance,
- women asking men to dance,
- same sex dancing at milongas,
- women teachers.
No teacher that I know of has an issue with any of these.
When the teachers are back in BsAs, I?m sure they follow
the local codes there. However, it will be interesting to
see what happens over time as these teachers influence
generations of tangueros, who become the new milongueros.
Let?s look at women teachers in BsAs. From what I
understand, women who teach without a male partner are not
held in the same regard as they would be in other
countries. Graciela Gonzalez got a lot of flack when she
began teaching a class for women. I recall a workshop in
Cleveland a few years ago with Milena Plebs and Ezequiel
Farfaro, who had only been dancing for about 5 years at
that point. I had expected Milena to do most of the
teaching, but to my surprise, Ezequiel did the teaching. A
more observant friend explained to me later that Milena was
feeding Ezequiel what to say next while people were busy
with the material. He thought it was to preserve that
Argentine machismo. In the U.S., it doesn?t phase people
to have a woman teacher as the main guest for a weekend of
workshops. Perhaps this outside support has encouraged
more Argentine women to teach as the main teacher.
So it is an interesting relationship, one in which the
outside world is influencing what is happening in BsAs
indirectly. Has those living in BsAs noticed any other
changes due to how tango is being taught or danced
elsewhere?
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:54:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal
teachers
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Chris, UK writes:
> "Nussbaum, Martin" <mnussbau@law.nyc.gov> wrote:
>
> > Chris, UK wrote about ... Gustavo Naveira as examples
> > of effective male teachers.
>
> I did not. For the record, what I did write is copied below.
Wow, I will then. He always seems to know exactly
where you'll screw up, so he explains what to do, lets
you try it, telling you that you'll no doubt get stuck
at a certain point, and that when you've tried it and
understand the nature of the "getting stuck" part better,
he'll then explain how to fix it. He knows from
experience that trying to explain it first is a waste of
time until you've experienced the screwup. Simply amazing,
most teachers don't have nearly this much insight into
the student's point of view.
Huck
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 02:00:58 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal
teachers
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Huck,
You're right, Gustavo Naveira is one of the very best. But you
have to admire Chris for having his own opinions. Of course, we
all know Chris hates teachers in general, but I was surprised
a few months ago when he described a class he took with Gustavo,
at which he said he could learn absolutely nothing. Doesn't seem
possible, does it?
Keith, HK
On Tue Mar 27 9:54 , Huck Kennedy sent:
>Chris, UK writes:
>> "Nussbaum, Martin" mnussbau@law.nyc.gov> wrote:
>>
>> > Chris, UK wrote about ... Gustavo Naveira as examples
>> > of effective male teachers.
>>
>> I did not. For the record, what I did write is copied below.
>
> Wow, I will then. He always seems to know exactly
>where you'll screw up, so he explains what to do, lets
>you try it, telling you that you'll no doubt get stuck
>at a certain point, and that when you've tried it and
>understand the nature of the "getting stuck" part better,
>he'll then explain how to fix it. He knows from
>experience that trying to explain it first is a waste of
>time until you've experienced the screwup. Simply amazing,
>most teachers don't have nearly this much insight into
>the student's point of view.
>
>Huck
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 10:09:58 +0200
From: Anna Zelenina <desdelasnubes@web.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal
teachers
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Keith,
I have been following the discussions on this list for some months
and I thank the list members for the variety of opinions expressed ;)
> hates teachers in general
By reading the messages I could not detect hate in the criticism. Of course
there is always the possiblity that I lack of understanding the nuances
because I'm not a native speaker.
IMHO criticism of teaching methods or teachers does not necessarily express hate.
On the contrary, subjects exempted from criticism
"become the subjects of just suspicion, and cannot lay claim to
sincere respect, which reason accords only to that which has stood the
test of a free and public examination." (Immanuel Kant: critique of pure reason)
> but I was surprised
> a few months ago when he described a class he took with Gustavo,
> at which he said he could learn absolutely nothing. Doesn't seem
> possible, does it?
Ways of learning can be different. A critical approach to class teaching, may it
be of argentine or other origin and a preference of "direct teaching"
by dancing with someone is something that does not surprise me.
I guess it's a question of individual experience.
sunny greetings from Old Europe
Anna
SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und
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Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 05:35:35 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal
teachers
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Anna,
Sorry, I guess "hate" was too strong a word and I should also have said
'group-class teachers' - even including the great Gustavo Naveira. Chris
has expressed the view many times that group classes are the main reason
why people have difficulty in learning Tango. Of course, we all accept
that private lessons are vastly superior to group classes, but who can
afford to pay Gustavo Naveira US$180 per hour - or has that gone up
since I last checked? Even a reasonably-priced private lesson will be
around US$50 per hour in Buenos Aires - probably more in Europe.
Your comment regarding "direct teaching by dancing with someone" presumably
refers to ladies [i.e. followers] only. What about the guys? And what about
the ladies who are either not young enough or not pretty enough to attract an
experienced leader who is prepared to take the time and trouble to show them
how to dance? And, don't forget, teaching Tango during a a milonga is generally
recognised to be a major no-no. So where will this "direct teaching" occur?
Keith, HK
On Tue Mar 27 16:09 , Anna Zelenina sent:
>
>Keith,
>
>I have been following the discussions on this list for some months
>and I thank the list members for the variety of opinions expressed ;)
>
>> hates teachers in general
>By reading the messages I could not detect hate in the criticism. Of course
>there is always the possiblity that I lack of understanding the nuances
>because I'm not a native speaker.
>IMHO criticism of teaching methods or teachers does not necessarily express hate.
>On the contrary, subjects exempted from criticism
>"become the subjects of just suspicion, and cannot lay claim to
>sincere respect, which reason accords only to that which has stood the
>test of a free and public examination." (Immanuel Kant: critique of pure reason)
>
>> but I was surprised
>> a few months ago when he described a class he took with Gustavo,
>> at which he said he could learn absolutely nothing. Doesn't seem
>> possible, does it?
>Ways of learning can be different. A critical approach to class teaching, may it
>be of argentine or other origin and a preference of "direct teaching"
>by dancing with someone is something that does not surprise me.
>I guess it's a question of individual experience.
>
>sunny greetings from Old Europe
>Anna
>
>
>SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und
>kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! https://f.web.de/\?mc1192
>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:42:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal
teachers
Keith - Chris did not say that he didn't learn anything
>from Gustavo. He only said that Gustavo's partner didn't
say anything.
He also said that it was 7 years ago. With the Argentine
couples I have seen now, the women are quite talkative, for
the most part. Chicho's partner didn't say anything during
some recent workshops in Baltimore, but that seems unusual
now. Here, people expect both the men and women to teach
equally in the class. Even the guys find it odd if the
woman is only assisting.
Trini
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://patangos.home.comcast.net/
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Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 17:45:24 +0200
From: Anna Zelenina <desdelasnubes@web.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal
teachers
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Keith,
a you presumed my comment referred to a follower. I don't know about the guys ;)
What I called /direct teaching/ occurs by dancing. It happens that I learn from the dancer i na sublime way, just by doing or by being led to do. It doesn't feel like I'm being taught a lesson as the dancing goes on without any explanation whatsoever, but the dancer kind of conveys the knowledge to me and I get the confidence that I know it and I could do it again. And maybe it is something beyond beauty and age?
Undoubtedly physical attractiveness is a factor in tango, as it is in life. So is youth. Who wouldn't be affected by the beauty and fragrance of a flower in blossom? And maybe the enchantment of youth can be even more appreciated by mature leaders that have experienced the evanescence of time and know about their own finity (antonym to infinity?). However there are experienced leaders that claim that by dancing with a lady they can feel and enjoy the emotions she has lived and some say they prefer to dance with mature women or experienced women (whatever that means) because they think it's exciting. Who knows? I don't. I probably will never have any deeper insight in male leader's psychology unless I'll reincarnate as a milonguero. In the meantime I'll be happy following.
Anna
*Von:* keith@tangohk.com
*Gesendet:* 27.03.07 11:39:04
*An:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Betreff:* Re: [Tango-L] Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal teachers
Your comment regarding "direct teaching by dancing with someone" presumably
refers to ladies [i.e. followers] only. What about the guys? And what about
the ladies who are either not young enough or not pretty enough to attract an
experienced leader who is prepared to take the time and trouble to show them
how to dance? And, don't forget, teaching Tango during a a milonga is generally
recognised to be a major no-no. So where will this "direct teaching" occur?
Keith, HK
On Tue Mar 27 16:09 , Anna Zelenina sent:
>
>Keith,
>
>I have been following the discussions on this list for some months
>and I thank the list members for the variety of opinions expressed ;)
>
>> hates teachers in general
>By reading the messages I could not detect hate in the criticism. Of course
>there is always the possiblity that I lack of understanding the nuances
>because I'm not a native speaker.
>IMHO criticism of teaching methods or teachers does not necessarily express hate.
>On the contrary, subjects exempted from criticism
>"become the subjects of just suspicion, and cannot lay claim to
>sincere respect, which reason accords only to that which has stood the
>test of a free and public examination." (Immanuel Kant: critique of pure reason)
>
>> but I was surprised
>> a few months ago when he described a class he took with Gustavo,
>> at which he said he could learn absolutely nothing. Doesn't seem
>> possible, does it?
>Ways of learning can be different. A critical approach to class teaching, may it
>be of argentine or other origin and a preference of "direct teaching"
>by dancing with someone is something that does not surprise me.
>I guess it's a question of individual experience.
>
>sunny greetings from Old Europe
>Anna
>
>
>SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und
>kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! https://f.web.de/?mc1192
>
SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und
kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! *https://f.web.de/?mc1192* [https://f.web.de/?mc1192]
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 12:30:40 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Chris UK Comparing tango gods to mortal
teachers
<patangos@yahoo.com>
Hi Trini,
I wasn't refering to Chris' recent message, but his email dated 2 October 2006
and reprinted below.
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Discussion Topics
