1176 Complex rythms?
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:04:56 +0200
From: Eero Olli <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
Subject: Complex rythms?
Carlos Lima wrote:
>What about the idea of exploring stepping "around the pulse" in first-year
>classes? I would be impressed to find out that it produced superlative
>dancers, but I would not even want to hear about this being done with dancers
>who do not reliably step RIGHT ON THE PULSE. There is a disquieting
>proportion of people out there who CANNOT, or will not.
I would not dismis it so easily. Sometimes it can be quite helpfull. My
following comments do not apply to people who lack control of their body,
which can be a alternative cause of the same problem.
I think that clapping excercises are great for figuring out, if a student
is off the beat because of lack of body control or lack of understanding.
I agree with you that there are some people who have no sense of rythm:
those unfortunate souls that just cannot not hear the puls at all; and
cannot hear the difference between a tango and a vals. Perhaps they (and
we) are better of if they find a different hobby? I do not know what to do
with them.
However, for all the rest there is hope!
My experience is that very few people lack a sence of rythm. For the many
bad-timing-newbies there is hope, though. My experience is that some of
these people are able to hear the jazz-like float around the 'beat'. This
makes them uncertain, because they are trying to find THE 'beat'.
Therefore they are inconsistant. When they learn that the 'beat' is more
fluid, they relax and trust more what they hear.
If they can clap consistently it is either the walk itself, or leading and
following, you need to adress.
Make them walk alone. Some people need to be explained what part of the
walk is commonly used to mark the 'beat'.
If that works, adress leading and following. This is quite difficult for
men. One of my students who had problems with timing, is professional
musician, a conductor of classical music. He did finally get it right,
after we figured out the two-layer relationship of timing in tango. The
man, like a conductor has to lead before the beat, so that the
orchestra/woman have the chance to do their part on the beat (or arrive
early or late). But in addition, the man is participating, unlike the
conductor, and has to his own part on the beat, too (or arrive early or
late). So, his problem was solved by understanding which components of the
movement are communicative in purpose and which are more about himself
walking. Basically, it is about timing what some call for 'intention'
correctly in relation to when the movement is inteded to happen (and his
own movement) for example in continuous walk. (It is not really that
complicated, at least compared to his presentation how a conductor needs
keep 5 different ways to relate to the same puls all the time.)
I think that you are underestimating peoples skills, or how common changing
the way one relates to the 'beat' is. The large majority of first year
students have no problems in changing the mood of their dance by dansing
one phrase arriving early to the beat (agressive) and on other phrase
arriving late to the beat (laid back), as long as it fits to the music, and
it lasts a complete phrase. What is difficult is to CHANGE the 'arrival'.
Only advanced level students should be excpected to change their arrival on
single step basis. Thus a simple walk, can be turned to a emotional event.
That is a skill that can be used for great musical expression and dynamic
in the dance, and it should be cultivated from the very
begining. Otherwise we end up with loads of people who lack 'musicality'.
best,
eero
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 09:17:44 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Complex rythms?
>Carlos Lima wrote:
>
>>What about the idea of exploring stepping "around the pulse" in first-year
>>classes? I would be impressed to find out that it produced superlative
>>dancers, but I would not even want to hear about this being done with dancers
>>who do not reliably step RIGHT ON THE PULSE. There is a disquieting
>>proportion of people out there who CANNOT, or will not.
...
>I think that you are underestimating peoples skills, or how common changing
>the way one relates to the 'beat' is. The large majority of first year
>students have no problems in changing the mood of their dance by dansing
>one phrase arriving early to the beat (agressive) and on other phrase
>arriving late to the beat (laid back), as long as it fits to the music, and
>it lasts a complete phrase. What is difficult is to CHANGE the 'arrival'.
>Only advanced level students should be excpected to change their arrival on
>single step basis. Thus a simple walk, can be turned to a emotional event.
>That is a skill that can be used for great musical expression and dynamic
>in the dance, and it should be cultivated from the very
>begining. Otherwise we end up with loads of people who lack 'musicality'.
>
>best,
>eero
I'm not in agreement that we step before or after the beat...this
sounds like not stepping at the right time.
In swing music it is common to make movements "bluesy" by delaying
the arrival of the step, but in tango I find that stepping, i.e.
"finishing the weight change" RIGHT on the beat is the needle that
stitches our dance together. If the follower is on the beat like
that, her foot is pinned into the earth and her other foot can be
moved on to the next position.
Yes, it takes a "pre-lead" to get her moving, perhaps even a
half-beat ahead, but that pre-arrival is in the music, (e.g. the
wheeze of the bandoneon prior to sharply striking the strong note). I
wouldn't express that anticipation or tension by actually stepping on
it, rather it is the compression or enhancing of the connection in
tango.
For those of you who step "off the beat", you certainly wouldn't
teach that to a beginner, would you?
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 16:59:04 +0200
From: Eero Olli <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
Subject: complex rythms
At 09:00 17.04.2003, Tom Sternitz wrote:
>I'm not in agreement that we step before or after the beat...this
>sounds like not stepping at the right time.
I am sorry if I was unclear. Most people would not even notice that there
is a change in timing. They would just note the different qualities of the
step. If you are taking steps that have an aggressive, demanding quality,
your attack is very likely to be on the very 'beginning' of the beat. If
one takes a resentful, regretting, or loving step, it is likely to arrive
just a little later, as if it is dragged into the beat. Both are still
CORRECT.
Therefore, I am not certain that we disagree. It is quite uncommon to put
attention to this change in 'timing', even if one is putting lots of
attention to the 'quality' of the step. I think that most (all?) good
dancers vary their timing, they just think about in terms of musicality,
attitude, or emotion they are trying to express. Timing is, of course,
just one element in creating an expression, it is never enough alone.
I hope that I am not creating more confusion that clarity. For me these
kinds of micro-changes in timing are one way to observe and understand,
what is going on when people are expressing something. i.e. what was it
about that sidestep that made us all feel that it was
resentful/longing/powerful/challenging.
I am quite happy to settle for a better vocabulary (not using 'timing') if
someone can provide us with that. I am, nevertheless, the limitations of
words, going to make a try to explain what I mean.
People trained in jazz should be familiar with this kind of timing. If you
play the notes the way they are written, you are likely to have a piece
that sounds like a march or a classical piece, rather than a jazz piece.
Some fluidity is needed: however, so small that is almost impossible to
write down. The best way to play it is NOT to be on the beat (as a drum
maschine), but the feel the music. Music is not fixed in beat. Neither is
dansing.
This fluidity is what is most relevant for tango dansing. In addition the
changes in timing can be more systematic, and create 'tension'. One of the
classic examples of how off-timing can be used is on Quincy Jones' record
Bossanova (1962).
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clipserve/B00000DLUR001001/0/104-6693051-1708764
The tempo of the piece does not change. However, it has a wonderful drive,
and it FEELS like it is getting faster all the time. This is a trick,
created by one person in the rythm section attacking every beat a bit
early, whereas everybody else is arriving late. It takes lots of
discipline, because the natural tendency for the band would be to start
following the one person who is early, and creating increase in tempol.
Therefore, everybody else have to really hold back, and 'pretend' they are
playing slower all the time. (and as typical for jazz, this difference is
not written down in sheet music. You just have to know how to do it).
This bossanova keeps the difference through the whole piece, which is not
typical in tango. However, the different timing applies also to tango, and
in many pieces, you can hear that there are single instruments that are not
precise on the beat. For example the solo instrument often has quite a lot
of freedom to play around the beat. An other example could be tempo
changes, which sometimes starts with one/few instrument, and then the rest
follow. Changes in timing are one way to create emotional tension in the
music. It is not just about making a different 'sound' with your
instrument; it is also about the way one approaches a beat.
>For those of you who step "off the beat", you certainly wouldn't
>teach that to a beginner, would you?
No. As I wrote, it takes an advanced dancer to have this level of control
over movement and detail in lead/following. However, it is useful for a
teacher to know about, when trying to change someone's bad timing.
These kinds of changes in timing are often used when changing the dynamic
in a dance. Just think, what you do when you are trying to create a
powerful moment: it is not just about taking longer steps, dancing larger,
or using lots of changes of direction; there is something else, that allows
the dancers build up to a climax. A long step that arrives a bit early has
more 'power' in it, than one that is exactly on beat. I think that quite
often when dancers talk about taking 'powerful' steps, they are actually
also timing a little earlier.
And the opposite. when dancers are trying to create a sensation that they
whish this tender moment will last for ever, but the events are pulling
them away, they would show this by timing their steps a bit later, as if
the music is pulling them out of the situation.
I am by no means suggesting that we all should be off-beat like the quincy
jones drummer. In tango it is likely to be just a few steps, rarely as much
as a half phrase. Intentional off-timing should never be confused with
sloppynes, just as one would never accuse the quincy jones drummer for
being sloppy. One has to know what one wants express, how to get there, and
what one is actually doing.
Happy holidays (easter is big in Norway!),
Eero
